Have you played Wow lately? Even retard can get conquest gear from arenas/rated battlegrounds. Everyone can have same/equal gear, but after that skill only matters.
Originally posted by rodingo Unfortunately most games with pvp revolve around gear. The only games that I have played this year that don't is GW2 and Planetside 2. All the other games that I played that had pvp this year such as Rift, Swtor, AoW, all base a big chunk off of gear. In other words gear trumps skill in those games. Some people like that, however I don't and I know I'm not the only one.
Cmon man Not really true in AoW. You know that It's very important in AoW as it should be, but a good player can beat ok player in the nude. Unlike the other two, AoW has a block button. It's possible for you to never be hit regardless of gear.
Originally posted by rodingo Unfortunately most games with pvp revolve around gear. The only games that I have played this year that don't is GW2 and Planetside 2. All the other games that I played that had pvp this year such as Rift, Swtor, AoW, all base a big chunk off of gear. In other words gear trumps skill in those games. Some people like that, however I don't and I know I'm not the only one.
Cmon man Not really true in AoW. You know that It's very important in AoW as it should be, but a good player can beat ok player in the nude. Unlike the other two, AoW has a block button. It's possible for you to never be hit regardless of gear.
Make up your mind. Is gear important or not? Because here, you don't make any sense at all.
If gear is very important, it definitely trumps skill. And in your fetish game just like in any other game where better gear gives significantly more power.
For having played AoW, I can only say Rodingo is right to add it to the "gear centric" games for PvP.
Originally posted by rodingo Unfortunately most games with pvp revolve around gear. The only games that I have played this year that don't is GW2 and Planetside 2. All the other games that I played that had pvp this year such as Rift, Swtor, AoW, all base a big chunk off of gear. In other words gear trumps skill in those games. Some people like that, however I don't and I know I'm not the only one.
Cmon man Not really true in AoW. You know that It's very important in AoW as it should be, but a good player can beat ok player in the nude. Unlike the other two, AoW has a block button. It's possible for you to never be hit regardless of gear.
Make up your mind. Is gear important or not? Because here, you don't make any sense at all.
If gear is very important, it definitely trumps skill. And in your fetish game just like in any other game where better gear gives significantly more power.
For having played AoW, I can only say Rodingo is right to add it to the "gear centric" games for PvP.
Anyone not intent on making an attack for personal reasons can clearly read what I said. I'll say it another way for you. Gear is important, but if you are bad gear will not make you good.
In AoW gear makes up no more than 20% of your stats IF that. Rodingo will atest to this. It's not like RIFT, WOW, even GW2 where gear is 100% (minus level) of your stats. PLUS you have a block button!
Yeah, because a block button makes gear irrelevant.
*
EDIT: just logged into AoW to check it out, gear definitely makes up for way more than just 20% of your stats. Time to use the block feature of this forum to stop reading your spam of unfunded praise about that game, which isn't bad, but definitely not the "end of it all" like you try to picture it.
Yeah, because a block button makes gear irrelevant.
EDIT: just logged into AoW to check it out, gear definitely makes up for way more than just 20% of your stats.
IT DOES! lmao You can be the most gear guy in the world in AoW, but if I block all your attacks. YOU WILL NOT win.
This is foreign to the mmorpgs we've been playing the last 8 years. I know it's hard to understand.
Just because you didn't quote it, I'll write again. Gear makes up no more than 20% of your stats in AoW. There are TONS of players with better gear than me. There are not many with higher internal strength, or variety. I've more than made up my gear gap by careful planning and months of building.
You can buy a fresh alt the best gear in game on day one if you want to. He will still be uber weak. Careful investment of time is where power comes from in AoW.
First tell me how many and what level you meridians are at. I'm sure you won't and this will be where you drop out the conversation, but please don't. wait just a second. break down incoming.
edit- Im SO glad you made that edit. I will gladly break it down for you. Edit stat break down incoming. Would you like pictures too?
edit - The numbers - I get 170 "stats" (this is so silly. there are so many other factors in AoW)from gear in AoW. I get 1039 "stats" (such a different concept, what you've said becomes more silly as I look at it) just from internal skill and meridians.
Originally posted by f0dell54 Old school Ultima Online had the best PvP in my opinion. Chaos vs. Order wars were some of the most fun I've ever had in a MMO.
To be honest, UO PvP was a bit of a mess. It was nice not to be forced into faction, but it was pretty pointless, just ganking and killing for the sake of it most of the times.
The years passing made me enjoy PvP with a purpose. An objective beyond just killing each other. For instance, I loved "Notum Wars" in Anarchy Online, world PvP done right if you ask me.
Originally posted by f0dell54 Old school Ultima Online had the best PvP in my opinion. Chaos vs. Order wars were some of the most fun I've ever had in a MMO.
To be honest, UO PvP was a bit of a mess. It was nice not to be forced into faction, but it was pretty pointless, just ganking and killing for the sake of it most of the times.
The years passing made me enjoy PvP with a purpose. An objective beyond just killing each other. For instance, I loved "Notum Wars" in Anarchy Online, world PvP done right if you ask me.
I'm not done with you! I'll just put the edits and numbers here to make sure you see.
edit- Im SO glad you made that edit. I will gladly break it down for you. stat break down incoming. Would you like pictures too?
edit - The numbers - I get 170 "stats" (this is so silly. there are so many other factors in AoW)from gear in AoW. I get 1039 "stats" (such a different concept, what you've said becomes more silly as I look at it) just from internal skill and meridians.
Gear makes up about 16% of my "stats" in AoW.
edit - Like I said a few post up you will leave the conversation.
inb4 partial quote and moving of the goal post.
edit - You edited your post below the picture AFTER, the post I made, saying "I will break down the numbers. Please don't go." So you read, where I said "you will leave the conversation." THEN edited to say "block me" as if you didn't read it. Too funny. Plug your ears, it still doesn't change anything.
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard In age of wushu, approx. 1/3 (33%) of my stats come from gear, another 33% from "grindable" content (meridian) which also makes you better than people who haven't done it yet. So yes, AoW relies more on gear and grinding than player skill for pvp. Way more.
33% for you huh? interesting. I'm pretty sure my toon is more progressed than yours, thus I get more "stats" from more places than you, thus gear being less (50% less) of a factor than for you.
Grind? Well I guess you could. You gain meridians literally by doing anything besides walking around, heck you might get them from that.
As far as skill, a day 1 toon can not beat a 10 month toon. From that perspective you are correct. Howerver A well built, well played, 4 month toon can beat a well built, well played, 10 month toon on skill. From this perspective, or stage you would be incorrect.
As time goes on gear becomes less important in AoW. It makes up less and less of your total stat pool. I think we can agree upon that.
Originally posted by f0dell54 Old school Ultima Online had the best PvP in my opinion. Chaos vs. Order wars were some of the most fun I've ever had in a MMO.
That is your opinion.
Mine is that it has the worst pvp. It was nothing but griefing and the combat mechanics was not that fun to start with.
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard The last 33% come from the character/skills of course.
And yes, gear becomes less important over time... Just like any gear dependent game. Just like wow... When you have a full set of pvp gear, gear indeed becomes less important.
You basically just admitted Wushu isn't different from the other gear dependent mmorpgs with pvp.
Thanks for finally accepting the truth.
I see what you did there. I don't know if it was intentional, or from your lack of knowledge. Take off that full set of gear in WoW, RIFT, or even GW2. What do you have? A character with 80% less stats, yeah?
In Wushu when I take off my gear, I have 16% less stats. You see the difference? I think you already did, but wanted to "win the conversation"
Gear becomes less important in Wushu over THE PERSONAL GROWTH(time) of your character, unrelliant upon everyone having a "full set".
The reason being, the stats that gear gives in AoW, becomes a smaller and smaller portion of the total stat pool. This is because 85% of your stats come from other sources. Sources such as meridians, internal skill, artifacts, +dmg to technique etc.
Do you understand? Eh, I know you wont respond, just like your buddy up there.
edit- there is no pvp gear in AoW. You knew that right?
Haven't played WoW for or year or so, but the nostalgia I remember it from is that it had a kind of avatar responsiveness that made you feel like you are actually inside azeroth and that is something no other game has succeeded imo. But I think it's such magic that can be achieved once every 600 years or so... and that pvp gave some really good kicks...
Talking about games where thousands of players exist simultaneously in a single instance and mechanics related to such games.
I'm not sure if it's changed now or not but i thought Aion's PVP system was absolutely stupid at the time.
It was a system that discouraged players from actually going out and fighting anyone. It was a system where the higher rank you were, the more PVP points you'd lose on death. It got to a point where you could lose a whole days worth of points if you got killed once.
The system worked fine in Korea as i recall because those players went out regardless of rank. Here in the west i recall higher ranking players not even leaving town unless their entire guild was there to defend them.
Again, this may have changed since i last played a few years ago.
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard The last 33% come from the character/skills of course.
And yes, gear becomes less important over time... Just like any gear dependent game. Just like wow... When you have a full set of pvp gear, gear indeed becomes less important.
You basically just admitted Wushu isn't different from the other gear dependent mmorpgs with pvp.
Thanks for finally accepting the truth.
I see what you did there. I don't know if it was intentional, or from your lack of knowledge. Take off that full set of gear in WoW, RIFT, or even GW2. What do you have? A character with 80% less stats, yeah?
In Wushu when I take off my gear, I have 16% less stats. You see the difference? I think you already did, but wanted to "win the conversation"
Gear becomes less important in Wushu over THE PERSONAL GROWTH(time) of your character, unrelliant upon everyone having a "full set".
The reason being, the stats that gear gives in AoW, becomes a smaller and smaller portion of the total stat pool. This is because 85% of your stats come from other sources. Sources such as meridians, internal skill, artifacts, +dmg to technique etc.
Do you understand? Eh, I know you wont respond, just like your buddy up there.
edit- there is no pvp gear in AoW. You knew that right?
I think I made my point pretty nicely, and supported by your own posts including this one. And no, there's no PvP gear in AoW (nice attempt though), I was talking about WoW PvP gear in comparison.
In all the gear dependent games, gear becomes less relevant with time, when everyone become an equal. Exactly the same for Wushu, whether you like it or not. A noob with crap gear will be at a big disadvantage in that game too. Along with a noob who didn't work on meridians. AoW is heavily grind/gear based. If you want to be the best in PvP, you need more than your skill... you need a lot of grinding.
I would really have loved it to be different, but it isn't.
The bold simply has nothing to do with AoW. Like I said, "Gear becomes less important in Wushu over THE PERSONAL GROWTH(time) of your character, unreliant upon everyone having a "full set". You keep missing that. Gear becomes less important because it becomes less and less of your total stat pool, due to receiving 85% or more stats from sources other than gear.
In the other games named this is simply not true. Gear in those other games will continually become increasingly more and more of you stat pool. In games like WoW, and RIFT balance comes over time when everyone is geared, as you have stated. This is because 85% of stats come from gear.
Am I saying that gear plays no part at all in AoW? No, (thank goodness, that would be reeeally boring) as seen in my second post on the first page of this thread. There is a fundamental difference though that's really hard to argue.
WoW, RIFT, GW2 gear makes up 85% of your stats. AoW gear makes up 16% of my stats.
side note - You just dont "become more geared" in AoW. There are no gear drops. I'm still wearing the exact same greaves I had 6 months ago. Sure I could upgrade, but for literally 4-6 more stats, I'm in no hurry. I get far more bang for my time elsewhere.
Less than you'd think. WoW has one of the worst player rentention rates of any MMO in history. They released the numbers. The difference is they have the brand name and marketing budget to keep replacing those people they lose.
SO, worst, WoW, easily.
Best? Dark Age of Camelot or Eve.
Link? Otherwise, I call BS.
And saying that WoW "easily" has the worst PvP reeks of someone who has an agenda. It's certainly not the best, but nobody with even an inkling of objectivity could claim it's the worst when there are games like LOTRO out there that treat PvP like a mini-game.
I agree that DAoC was probably the best. But WoW's PvP was actually quite good back in the day. Particularly since it encouraged open world PvP to happen organically due to the way the zones were set up.
Less than you'd think. WoW has one of the worst player rentention rates of any MMO in history. They released the numbers. The difference is they have the brand name and marketing budget to keep replacing those people they lose.
SO, worst, WoW, easily.
Best? Dark Age of Camelot or Eve.
Link? Otherwise, I call BS.
And saying that WoW "easily" has the worst PvP reeks of someone who has an agenda. It's certainly not the best, but nobody with even an inkling of objectivity could claim it's the worst when there are games like LOTRO out there that treat PvP like a mini-game.
I agree that DAoC was probably the best. But WoW's PvP was actually quite good back in the day. Particularly since it encouraged open world PvP to happen organically due to the way the zones were set up.
I've seen the link. It's something like 80% of the people who try don't make it past level 10. This is part of the reason the did the redesign in cata, which back fired badly.
I do agree with everything you said though. There is nothing like high level arena anywhere else in the industry.
Less than you'd think. WoW has one of the worst player rentention rates of any MMO in history. They released the numbers. The difference is they have the brand name and marketing budget to keep replacing those people they lose.
SO, worst, WoW, easily.
Best? Dark Age of Camelot or Eve.
Link? Otherwise, I call BS.
And saying that WoW "easily" has the worst PvP reeks of someone who has an agenda. It's certainly not the best, but nobody with even an inkling of objectivity could claim it's the worst when there are games like LOTRO out there that treat PvP like a mini-game.
I agree that DAoC was probably the best. But WoW's PvP was actually quite good back in the day. Particularly since it encouraged open world PvP to happen organically due to the way the zones were set up.
I've seen the link. It's something like 80% of the people who try don't make it past level 10. This is part of the reason the did the redesign in cata, which back fired badly.
I do agree with everything you said though. There is nothing like high level arena anywhere else in the industry.
Maybe, but there's a flip side to that coin, which our pal DavisFlight neglects to mention: WoW has retained more players through the years than any other MMO. If I were a dev, I'd take 20% of millions and millions of players retained over 50% of who-gives-a-shit any day. But that's only because I enjoy money and stuff.
As for WoW's PvP, I'm not even really talking about arenas, although you're right---you just don't see that kind of participation in other MMOs. I've never really been an arena player myself---just not skilled enough. The PvP that interests me is the kind that just happens organically around the open world. Contested zones, quest hubs for opposing factions in the same zones, and faction cities that can be attacked by the opposing faction. I always found that kind of PvP to be the most fun, and WoW had it...at least when I played. I have a lot of fond memories of battles in Tarren Mill with horde players.
Less than you'd think. WoW has one of the worst player rentention rates of any MMO in history. They released the numbers. The difference is they have the brand name and marketing budget to keep replacing those people they lose.
SO, worst, WoW, easily.
Best? Dark Age of Camelot or Eve.
Link? Otherwise, I call BS.
And saying that WoW "easily" has the worst PvP reeks of someone who has an agenda. It's certainly not the best, but nobody with even an inkling of objectivity could claim it's the worst when there are games like LOTRO out there that treat PvP like a mini-game.
I agree that DAoC was probably the best. But WoW's PvP was actually quite good back in the day. Particularly since it encouraged open world PvP to happen organically due to the way the zones were set up.
I've seen the link. It's something like 80% of the people who try don't make it past level 10. This is part of the reason the did the redesign in cata, which back fired badly.
I do agree with everything you said though. There is nothing like high level arena anywhere else in the industry.
Actually, I believe that was portrayed as a good thing since other MMORPGs with free trials had a worse retention rate.
The bold simply has nothing to do with AoW. Like I said, "Gear becomes less important in Wushu over THE PERSONAL GROWTH(time) of your character, unreliant upon everyone having a "full set". You keep missing that. Gear becomes less important because it becomes less and less of your total stat pool, due to receiving 85% or more stats from sources other than gear.
In the other games named this is simply not true. Gear in those other games will continually become increasingly more and more of you stat pool. In games like WoW, and RIFT balance comes over time when everyone is geared, as you have stated. This is because 85% of stats come from gear.
Am I saying that gear plays no part at all in AoW? No, (thank goodness, that would be reeeally boring) as seen in my second post on the first page of this thread. There is a fundamental difference though that's really hard to argue.
WoW, RIFT, GW2 gear makes up 85% of your stats. AoW gear makes up 16% of my stats.
side note - You just dont "become more geared" in AoW. There are no gear drops. I'm still wearing the exact same greaves I had 6 months ago. Sure I could upgrade, but for literally 4-6 more stats, I'm in no hurry. I get far more bang for my time elsewhere.
The fact remains is that most of the combat effect of your character in AoW comes with grind, which means gaining levels on your meridians and gear (combined), which was also his point. Someone who is behind in levels of his abilities/meridians is going to have a hard time going against someone of a higher level of skills. That's a fact because with ability/meredian increases you get FLAT bonuses to stats and damage of abilities, just like gear one could say, yes?
Originally posted by Kyleran MMORPG combat has never traditionally been about being fair and balanced, in fact quite the opposite, it usually has some means for a player to get a leg up on the competition via level disparities, improved gear, more skills/abilities or even better tactics or taking advantage of game deficiencies such as lag, overpowered class etc.In fact, it's a bit of a core feature really, the ability to improve your kill rate by utilizing things other than your natural /practiced ability to manipulate a keyboard.
Agree 100%. The fact that MMORPG PvP is a combination of player ability AND character progression is definitely a feature - indeed, it's pretty much the unique selling point of MMORPG PvP.
If you don't want character progression mixed in with your clash of player skill, then play a MOBA, an RTS, a lobby team-vs-team game, whatever. Just don't expect to find an MMORPG that delivers that sort of PvP, because apart from GW2's (incredibly unpopular) SPvP mode, I've never seen it.
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard The last 33% come from the character/skills of course.
And yes, gear becomes less important over time... Just like any gear dependent game. Just like wow... When you have a full set of pvp gear, gear indeed becomes less important.
You basically just admitted Wushu isn't different from the other gear dependent mmorpgs with pvp.
Thanks for finally accepting the truth.
I see what you did there. I don't know if it was intentional, or from your lack of knowledge. Take off that full set of gear in WoW, RIFT, or even GW2. What do you have? A character with 80% less stats, yeah?
actually for spvp in gw2 everyone has the same gear at level 1. Only in wvw pvp does gear make a difference.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.
Comments
word "Stupid" pvp system instantly brought Lotro monster-thingy to mind.. that's just, well stupid
Best and worst: Darkfall
Cmon man
Not really true in AoW. You know that 
It's very important in AoW as it should be, but a good player can beat ok player in the nude. Unlike the other two, AoW has a block button. It's possible for you to never be hit regardless of gear.
Make up your mind. Is gear important or not? Because here, you don't make any sense at all.
If gear is very important, it definitely trumps skill. And in your fetish game just like in any other game where better gear gives significantly more power.
For having played AoW, I can only say Rodingo is right to add it to the "gear centric" games for PvP.
My computer is better than yours.
Anyone not intent on making an attack for personal reasons can clearly read what I said. I'll say it another way for you. Gear is important, but if you are bad gear will not make you good.
In AoW gear makes up no more than 20% of your stats IF that. Rodingo will atest to this. It's not like RIFT, WOW, even GW2 where gear is 100% (minus level) of your stats. PLUS you have a block button!
Don't hate it because it's beautiful
Yeah, because a block button makes gear irrelevant.
EDIT: just logged into AoW to check it out, gear definitely makes up for way more than just 20% of your stats. Time to use the block feature of this forum to stop reading your spam of unfunded praise about that game, which isn't bad, but definitely not the "end of it all" like you try to picture it.
My computer is better than yours.
IT DOES! lmao You can be the most gear guy in the world in AoW, but if I block all your attacks. YOU WILL NOT win.
This is foreign to the mmorpgs we've been playing the last 8 years. I know it's hard to understand.
Just because you didn't quote it, I'll write again. Gear makes up no more than 20% of your stats in AoW. There are TONS of players with better gear than me. There are not many with higher internal strength, or variety. I've more than made up my gear gap by careful planning and months of building.
You can buy a fresh alt the best gear in game on day one if you want to. He will still be uber weak. Careful investment of time is where power comes from in AoW.
First tell me how many and what level you meridians are at. I'm sure you won't and this will be where you drop out the conversation, but please don't. wait just a second. break down incoming.
edit- Im SO glad you made that edit. I will gladly break it down for you. Edit stat break down incoming. Would you like pictures too?
edit - The numbers - I get 170 "stats" (this is so silly. there are so many other factors in AoW)from gear in AoW. I get 1039 "stats" (such a different concept, what you've said becomes more silly as I look at it) just from internal skill and meridians.
Gear makes up about 16% of my "stats" in AoW.
To be honest, UO PvP was a bit of a mess. It was nice not to be forced into faction, but it was pretty pointless, just ganking and killing for the sake of it most of the times.
The years passing made me enjoy PvP with a purpose. An objective beyond just killing each other. For instance, I loved "Notum Wars" in Anarchy Online, world PvP done right if you ask me.
My computer is better than yours.
I'm not done with you! I'll just put the edits and numbers here to make sure you see.
edit- Im SO glad you made that edit. I will gladly break it down for you. stat break down incoming. Would you like pictures too?
edit - The numbers - I get 170 "stats" (this is so silly. there are so many other factors in AoW)from gear in AoW. I get 1039 "stats" (such a different concept, what you've said becomes more silly as I look at it) just from internal skill and meridians.
Gear makes up about 16% of my "stats" in AoW.
edit - Like I said a few post up you will leave the conversation.
inb4 partial quote and moving of the goal post.
edit - You edited your post below the picture AFTER, the post I made, saying "I will break down the numbers. Please don't go." So you read, where I said "you will leave the conversation." THEN edited to say "block me" as if you didn't read it. Too funny. Plug your ears, it still doesn't change anything.
33% for you huh? interesting. I'm pretty sure my toon is more progressed than yours, thus I get more "stats" from more places than you, thus gear being less (50% less) of a factor than for you.
Grind? Well I guess you could. You gain meridians literally by doing anything besides walking around, heck you might get them from that.
As far as skill, a day 1 toon can not beat a 10 month toon. From that perspective you are correct. Howerver A well built, well played, 4 month toon can beat a well built, well played, 10 month toon on skill. From this perspective, or stage you would be incorrect.
As time goes on gear becomes less important in AoW. It makes up less and less of your total stat pool. I think we can agree upon that.
edit - you left out 33% btw
That is your opinion.
Mine is that it has the worst pvp. It was nothing but griefing and the combat mechanics was not that fun to start with.
Any instanced pvp game is better (for me).
I see what you did there. I don't know if it was intentional, or from your lack of knowledge. Take off that full set of gear in WoW, RIFT, or even GW2. What do you have? A character with 80% less stats, yeah?
In Wushu when I take off my gear, I have 16% less stats. You see the difference? I think you already did, but wanted to "win the conversation"
Gear becomes less important in Wushu over THE PERSONAL GROWTH(time) of your character, unrelliant upon everyone having a "full set".
The reason being, the stats that gear gives in AoW, becomes a smaller and smaller portion of the total stat pool. This is because 85% of your stats come from other sources. Sources such as meridians, internal skill, artifacts, +dmg to technique etc.
Do you understand? Eh, I know you wont respond, just like your buddy up there.
edit- there is no pvp gear in AoW. You knew that right?
Stupid:
Easy one............... SWTOR, just a big joke
Best:
Darkfall (the original, not Darkfall 2.0)
I'm not sure if it's changed now or not but i thought Aion's PVP system was absolutely stupid at the time.
It was a system that discouraged players from actually going out and fighting anyone. It was a system where the higher rank you were, the more PVP points you'd lose on death. It got to a point where you could lose a whole days worth of points if you got killed once.
The system worked fine in Korea as i recall because those players went out regardless of rank. Here in the west i recall higher ranking players not even leaving town unless their entire guild was there to defend them.
Again, this may have changed since i last played a few years ago.
The bold simply has nothing to do with AoW. Like I said, "Gear becomes less important in Wushu over THE PERSONAL GROWTH(time) of your character, unreliant upon everyone having a "full set". You keep missing that. Gear becomes less important because it becomes less and less of your total stat pool, due to receiving 85% or more stats from sources other than gear.
In the other games named this is simply not true. Gear in those other games will continually become increasingly more and more of you stat pool. In games like WoW, and RIFT balance comes over time when everyone is geared, as you have stated. This is because 85% of stats come from gear.
Am I saying that gear plays no part at all in AoW? No, (thank goodness, that would be reeeally boring) as seen in my second post on the first page of this thread. There is a fundamental difference though that's really hard to argue.
WoW, RIFT, GW2 gear makes up 85% of your stats. AoW gear makes up 16% of my stats.
side note - You just dont "become more geared" in AoW. There are no gear drops. I'm still wearing the exact same greaves I had 6 months ago. Sure I could upgrade, but for literally 4-6 more stats, I'm in no hurry. I get far more bang for my time elsewhere.
Link? Otherwise, I call BS.
And saying that WoW "easily" has the worst PvP reeks of someone who has an agenda. It's certainly not the best, but nobody with even an inkling of objectivity could claim it's the worst when there are games like LOTRO out there that treat PvP like a mini-game.
I agree that DAoC was probably the best. But WoW's PvP was actually quite good back in the day. Particularly since it encouraged open world PvP to happen organically due to the way the zones were set up.
I've seen the link. It's something like 80% of the people who try don't make it past level 10. This is part of the reason the did the redesign in cata, which back fired badly.
I do agree with everything you said though. There is nothing like high level arena anywhere else in the industry.
Maybe, but there's a flip side to that coin, which our pal DavisFlight neglects to mention: WoW has retained more players through the years than any other MMO. If I were a dev, I'd take 20% of millions and millions of players retained over 50% of who-gives-a-shit any day. But that's only because I enjoy money and stuff.
As for WoW's PvP, I'm not even really talking about arenas, although you're right---you just don't see that kind of participation in other MMOs. I've never really been an arena player myself---just not skilled enough. The PvP that interests me is the kind that just happens organically around the open world. Contested zones, quest hubs for opposing factions in the same zones, and faction cities that can be attacked by the opposing faction. I always found that kind of PvP to be the most fun, and WoW had it...at least when I played. I have a lot of fond memories of battles in Tarren Mill with horde players.
Actually, I believe that was portrayed as a good thing since other MMORPGs with free trials had a worse retention rate.
The fact remains is that most of the combat effect of your character in AoW comes with grind, which means gaining levels on your meridians and gear (combined), which was also his point. Someone who is behind in levels of his abilities/meridians is going to have a hard time going against someone of a higher level of skills. That's a fact because with ability/meredian increases you get FLAT bonuses to stats and damage of abilities, just like gear one could say, yes?
Agree 100%. The fact that MMORPG PvP is a combination of player ability AND character progression is definitely a feature - indeed, it's pretty much the unique selling point of MMORPG PvP.
If you don't want character progression mixed in with your clash of player skill, then play a MOBA, an RTS, a lobby team-vs-team game, whatever. Just don't expect to find an MMORPG that delivers that sort of PvP, because apart from GW2's (incredibly unpopular) SPvP mode, I've never seen it.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.