If being a "loser" means bending the rules when it affects no one else (e.g. cheating in a single player game) but not doing it when it means all other players will be negatively affected by my rule breaking, then I will gladly be such a "loser".
Yeah, MMORPGs are "just games", but the people behind the screens and keyboards are real. Something many players conveniently forget.
It's kinda amusing that since the very first online game I've played, the excuses for cheating have remained the same. They are "me! me! me!" and "now! now! now!", along with the inevitable "it's just a game".
Stuff will always be "too hard" for some people. The problem is more where does fun start and stop for different people?
Reaction 1: it's not fun, I just don't do it. Who cares, it's just a virtual item.
Reaction 2: it's not fun, I cheat (aka break game rules by buying gold) to do it, not minding that I participate in ruining parts of the game for everyone else by helping it being filled by with farmers, sellers, spammers and account thieves.
I use reaction 1. And being casual is not an excuse for cheating and participating in making the game worse for many others.
"Cheating" is defined by the dev. If there is a cashshop selling gold, it is sanctioned, and buying gold is consistent with the intention and design of the game. I don't buy gold because it is just a game for me, not because i have a problem with it.
"making the game worse for many others" ... a) buying gold, cheating or what-not has zero impact on pve games. Just like if i use god mode on CoD, i affect no other players. b) I don't really play games to make the game better for anyone. I do that for fun.
Heck, i tend to ignore people who want to guild me, and i tend to just turn down duel request ... arguably "making the game worse" for them .. so what?
I won't go to much into detail as that would probably get me banned.
What are we talking about here ?
Games have rules. Be it card games, sport games, computer games whatever. Doesn't matter. If you break the game rules (in this case buying gold illegally and against the rules) you cheat. Definition can be found e.g. here http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/cheat
Cheating in games is as old as games are. There are many reasons and even more excuses (see this thread for examples on both) from the cheaters to justify it. In the end it all comes down to the fact that cheaters have no respect for others or even themselves.
Does anyone like playing with a cheater ? Anyway, that's all I have to say on this topic.
Hell yes!
I used to be in a tabletop game group. One of them was a cheater, but he was a super cool dude with whom I had tons of fun, whereas the over serious "oh stick to them rulz" guys just get on my nerves. I hate that when people take game so damn serious, to the point that it kills the fun.
The sabbath is made for man, not man is made for the sabbath, to quote the Saviour. Meaning: rules should SERVE people, not people serve rules. They are made for us, by us. A rule is not a self-existing thing. WE MADE IT UP, and if rules are not good, they must be changed, but if for whatever reason they are not changed, we must help ourselves. There came a point in life where I decided not to live in misery because of rules imposed on me by other people.
It is called enlightened self-interest. Last time I heard that is what drives progress. I am always willing to stick to rules when everyone benefits from them, but I will not blindly follow rules which violate my personal interets in areas which are supposed to be fun, like hobbies and games.
I always follow a rule which is good. But alas, not all rules are good rules.
Thank you for your honesty. Are you a young man? 19-23ish? I'm asking because I once felt like you. In fact the fundamental principles of this position stay with me to this day. As I've gotten older (wiser) though, I realized my actions have consequences, not just me but for all around me, and there is most certainly right and wrong.
Again thank you for your honesty.
edit - I see it says you are 42. I could have an entire off-topic conversation with you.
Look, I once used to be a totally stiff stick to the rules because they are the rules. But somewhere in my 30ies I realized: all those people are losers. Period.
I don't mean that in an asshole way. Seriously. My dad was always honest, modest, hard working, never made a single day sick in his job. And many of his collegues were crooks and thieves and brown-nosers. And guess who always got the wager raises and better positions? And, being my dad's son, when I was 20-something I was the same. At the university I always was working hard, believing if I had the best grades and work hard it would pay off. And who got the jobs? THose with horrible grades, but those were brown-nosers and crooks and liars.
Skill, honesty, integrity - they don't pay off. Like, at all. They just make you a fool. That's what integrity does.
Now see, I can not break my nature, and my nature is being kind and good. So I will always be a good person, but a loser. But in games, I said to myself: ok, these are games. They bear no relevance. I am not directly stealing. But I will make it pleasurable for me in a life where fun and pleasure are rare. I want to have fun in the games. I do NOT want to walk 30 minutes, because I would have to grind one year to afford a horse. If I have to cheat to do that, I will, and I wont even feel bad about it.
9 out of 10 rules are made by those who HAVE to keep those who HAVE NOT in their place. Rules always serve the have-people to keep the have-nothing people in the place below them. Order is just a more elegant mask of bullying. Of forcing other people to play by rules you made up. I just stopped believing in rules. People have power to force their will and those withou must obey. I am 95% of times in my life on the obey-side because I am a weak, unemployed have nothing fool. But in games, I WILL NOT BE a poor have-nothing idiot AGAIN! I WILL NOT BE THE SAME FOOL in my games I am ALREADY in RL, because I am imprisoned in my thrice damn moral character.
There, OP, you wanted the answer, that is it.
It isn't pretty, but that`s what I learned about life. There are only two rules: What a man can do. And what a man cannot do. Everything else is made up to keep you under someone else's thumb. I am not making stuff up to provoke. It is what I came to see from observing life. The honest man is the fool. I am way to whimpy and emphatic to ever actively harm someone in RL. But in games, I want to be the king and play by one rule alone: MINE.
This has to be a 10 ten post ever made on this site.
I'm 100% opposition to your sentiment with respect to games though. Why even play if you don't play by the rules? Games are the ideal environment for rules. That's why it's called a game. It's a contrived set of conditions, that sets what is and what is not allowed. The player is to work within these conditions to achieve, win or lose.
I feel better losing but giving an honest effort with what I've created in game, than winning, knowing I went outside the rules. I feel best winning knowing I beat someone who did go outside the rules.
I'm 100% opposition to your sentiment with respect to games though. Why even play if you don't play by the rules? Games are the ideal environment for rules. That's why it's called a game. It's a contrived set of conditions, that sets what is and what is not allowed. The player is to work within these conditions to achieve, win or lose.
So you should have no objection to P2W.
Devs set up rules for the game, and p2w games INCLUDE rules that allow players to pay real money for power. It is sanctioned and even encourage by the rule maker, the developers.
but if for whatever reason they are not changed, we must help ourselves. There came a point in life where I decided not to live in misery because of rules imposed on me by other people.
It is called enlightened self-interest.
ew
I'm so writing you out of the will!
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I'm 100% opposition to your sentiment with respect to games though. Why even play if you don't play by the rules? Games are the ideal environment for rules. That's why it's called a game. It's a contrived set of conditions, that sets what is and what is not allowed. The player is to work within these conditions to achieve, win or lose.
So you should have no objection to P2W.
Devs set up rules for the game, and p2w games INCLUDE rules that allow players to pay real money for power. It is sanctioned and even encourage by the rule maker, the developers.
I don't like any cash to gold to in game currency systems. I prefer to play without. Systems without are becoming harder and harder to find though. Where I sit now, as long as not buying gold does not limit me, I can stomach it.
I pay someone else to build em cuz it takes to much time and patience to build myself.
I have a very nice collection. Merica
Again, you are all still working on the premise that everyone or even a majority buy gold or items to bypass 'work'. I don't doubt that's the most convenient point to take a high ground on and argue against, but it isn't the only reason or even the main reason people buy things in MMOs.
You build model cars. That means you probably have bought some models that are exotic or rare. You may have bought collectible models that never leave the box. If you're like my buddy who builds model cars, you also have bought display stands and lighting for your models.
You probably also travel to hobby expos and conventions, too, right?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I'm 100% opposition to your sentiment with respect to games though. Why even play if you don't play by the rules? Games are the ideal environment for rules. That's why it's called a game. It's a contrived set of conditions, that sets what is and what is not allowed. The player is to work within these conditions to achieve, win or lose.
So you should have no objection to P2W.
Devs set up rules for the game, and p2w games INCLUDE rules that allow players to pay real money for power. It is sanctioned and even encourage by the rule maker, the developers.
I don't like any cash to gold to in game currency systems. I prefer to play without. Systems without are becoming harder and harder to find though. Where I sit now, as long as not buying gold does not limit me, I can stomach it.
So you agree that p2w is part of the rules, and not cheating?
Sure, you don't like p2w rules .. that is ok. No game mechanics can make everyone happy anyway.
I pay someone else to build em cuz it takes to much time and patience to build myself.
I have a very nice collection. Merica
Again, you are all still working on the premise that everyone or even a majority buy gold or items to bypass 'work'. I don't doubt that's the most convenient point to take a high ground on and argue against, but it isn't the only reason or even the main reason people buy things in MMOs.
You build model cars. That means you probably have bought some models that are exotic or rare. You may have bought collectible models that never leave the box. If you're like my buddy who builds model cars, you also have bought display stands and lighting for your models.
You probably also travel to hobby expos and conventions, too, right?
nottuned, do you make your model cars from scratch with plastic, and metal ore? If not, you are already paid others to do part of the work for you.
It's pretty tragic to see how many ppl are ignorant ( by choice or just don't care ) to where this gold comes from. Apparently ppl have no issue with buying stolen property just as long as they don't have to see someone do it.
It's pretty tragic to see how many ppl are ignorant ( by choice or just don't care ) to where this gold comes from. Apparently ppl have no issue with buying stolen property just as long as they don't have to see someone do it.
What goes around comes around I guess.
What stolen property? Aren't we talking about buying gold from cash shop operated by the devs?
It's pretty tragic to see how many ppl are ignorant ( by choice or just don't care ) to where this gold comes from. Apparently ppl have no issue with buying stolen property just as long as they don't have to see someone do it.
What goes around comes around I guess.
What stolen property? Aren't we talking about buying gold from cash shop operated by the devs?
No... That would be like asking why someone spends money on a cosmetic item. The answer is obvious.
Gold from "china" is stolen from other players accounts.
Now see, I can not break my nature, and my nature is being kind and good. So I will always be a good person, but a loser. But in games, I said to myself: ok, these are games. They bear no relevance. I am not directly stealing. But I will make it pleasurable for me in a life where fun and pleasure are rare. I want to have fun in the games. I do NOT want to walk 30 minutes, because I would have to grind one year to afford a horse. If I have to cheat to do that, I will, and I wont even feel bad about it.
9 out of 10 rules are made by those who HAVE to keep those who HAVE NOT in their place. Rules always serve the have-people to keep the have-nothing people in the place below them. Order is just a more elegant mask of bullying. Of forcing other people to play by rules you made up. I just stopped believing in rules. People have power to force their will and those withou must obey. I am 95% of times in my life on the obey-side because I am a weak, unemployed have nothing fool. But in games, I WILL NOT BE a poor have-nothing idiot AGAIN! I WILL NOT BE THE SAME FOOL in my games I am ALREADY in RL, because I am imprisoned in my thrice damn moral character.
Your logic is completely broken. If this is something you really believe and not simply an excuse to justify your actions you really need to re-evaluate your thinking. Rules in games aren't a case of "the man" keeping you down. They're put in to make the game fun. If the devs don't hand you a horse at level 1, it's probably because they think that it is more fun in the long run for the players to earn it and have it be more meaningful. You're free to disagree but it isn't your game and you don't get to change the rules to suit yourself. Other people have pointed out all the harm third gold buying does in games. If the create the game, of course they create the rules everybody else plays by, and if you don't like it, don't play that game. How is that "bullying"?
It's pretty tragic to see how many ppl are ignorant ( by choice or just don't care ) to where this gold comes from. Apparently ppl have no issue with buying stolen property just as long as they don't have to see someone do it.
What goes around comes around I guess.
What stolen property? Aren't we talking about buying gold from cash shop operated by the devs?
No... That would be like asking why someone spends money on a cosmetic item. The answer is obvious.
Gold from "china" is stolen from other players accounts.
The OP does not say it is about gold from "china" and MANY cash shop sell in-game currency.
And how is it the same as spending money on a cosmetic item? Buying gold in a cash shop is more p2w, and even not, can change the in-game economy, while cosmetic items do not.
By paying to skip parts of the game you don't like or to avoid long / boring grinds you are indirectly advocating that design. Wouldn't a better use for your money be putting it toward games that don't have said "features"?
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
I don't mean that in an asshole way. Seriously. My dad was always honest, modest, hard working, never made a single day sick in his job. And many of his collegues were crooks and thieves and brown-nosers. And guess who always got the wager raises and better positions?
It's true that just because you "work hard" are honest, put in your time, learn everything you can that you won't necessarily rise through the ranks.
The reason that "the crooks, brown nosers, etc" rise through the ranks is that they are using a tool that is proven to work "networking".
Heck, that's the whole idea behind "Linkedin".
But you know what? You can also be a hard worker and put in your time, be honest and "still network". I realize that some might have disdain for this and it can seem slimy. I have a good friend who always got top grades, has an excellent academic pedigree but couldn't get a college position to save his life.
I know others who also have good pedigrees but who work hard at making contacts, following up, "brown nosing" in some cases and yes they tend to get what they want.
One doesn't have to cheat in order to get what they want. But ask yourself this: "who are you more likely to hire; the person you don't know but they have good stats on paper or the person you do know who you think can do the job"?
In any case, bringing it more to "on topic" I think all the valid reasons to buy gold have been covered in the thread. And yes it comes down to devs putting something in the game they think will be satisfying but for many they would rather just pay and bypass it.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Originally posted by dave6660 By paying to skip parts of the game you don't like or to avoid long / boring grinds you are indirectly advocating that design. Wouldn't a better use for your money be putting it toward games that don't have said "features"?
Not if said games don't have the game mechanics or IP/setting that i like, and the F2P have them.
Plus, i don't see games that do not have grinds. It is actually good to let the players decide what to avoid, instead of having a one size fit all design.
I'VE done also and my reason was because i couldn't afford anything. The first game i did this was wow. My character always had the crappiest gear. All from quest or if lucky drops. I finally just gave in to it. And don't forget to blame this on greedy players. Those AH prices come from them. So What you gonna do.
If a game isn't enjoyable at a casual level (casual in the sense of time-commitment), then simply just quit the game and play a game that is actaully enjoyable given your time constraints.
I stopped playing several games due to the realization that they are too time demanding. This is specially true about games where you need to participate for an event/spawn that only happens a specific time of the day. Games where daily quests are very important also makes me less motivated to play; so yeah qutting is always an option.
I pay someone else to build em cuz it takes to much time and patience to build myself.
I have a very nice collection. Merica
Again, you are all still working on the premise that everyone or even a majority buy gold or items to bypass 'work'. I don't doubt that's the most convenient point to take a high ground on and argue against, but it isn't the only reason or even the main reason people buy things in MMOs.
You build model cars. That means you probably have bought some models that are exotic or rare. You may have bought collectible models that never leave the box. If you're like my buddy who builds model cars, you also have bought display stands and lighting for your models.
You probably also travel to hobby expos and conventions, too, right?
nottuned, do you make your model cars from scratch with plastic, and metal ore? If not, you are already paid others to do part of the work for you.
It is just a matter of degree.
No, I pay people to do that for me, all of it.
The only thing I do is brag to my friends at how good I am at building model cars.
If a game isn't enjoyable at a casual level (casual in the sense of time-commitment), then simply just quit the game and play a game that is actaully enjoyable given your time constraints.
I stopped playing several games due to the realization that they are too time demanding. This is specially true about games where you need to participate for an event/spawn that only happens a specific time of the day. Games where daily quests are very important also makes me less motivated to play; so yeah qutting is always an option.
This is what I think most people do. They just stop playing.
The disconnect is between what these boards complain about and what actually happens.
Most people just stop playing. The devs see those numbers stop playing and say, uh oh, the devs themselves then want to change the game. The devs are chasing the casuals.
These boards see it the other way around, that casuals are demanding change. The casuals rarely come to the boards, they just stop playing.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I never bought gold either but a few times when I leveled up tradeskills it can get expensive so if you want to level up tradeskills quickly and you don't have another character to "twink" the grind by sending your alt gold then I guess buying gold would be the answer.
Otherwise, if you don't have the gold to buy crafting resources you would have to spend a lot of time gathering the resources by hand (killing certain mobs, harvesting nodes, etc.) which is exactly how I did it (and probably the intent of the game's design).
Which brings me to a point to bring up: if these games didn't offer public auctions and forced players to trade goods manually (no bot-selling) then it would help minimize the gold farming.
Comments
If being a "loser" means bending the rules when it affects no one else (e.g. cheating in a single player game) but not doing it when it means all other players will be negatively affected by my rule breaking, then I will gladly be such a "loser".
Yeah, MMORPGs are "just games", but the people behind the screens and keyboards are real. Something many players conveniently forget.
It's kinda amusing that since the very first online game I've played, the excuses for cheating have remained the same. They are "me! me! me!" and "now! now! now!", along with the inevitable "it's just a game".
My computer is better than yours.
"Cheating" is defined by the dev. If there is a cashshop selling gold, it is sanctioned, and buying gold is consistent with the intention and design of the game. I don't buy gold because it is just a game for me, not because i have a problem with it.
"making the game worse for many others" ... a) buying gold, cheating or what-not has zero impact on pve games. Just like if i use god mode on CoD, i affect no other players. b) I don't really play games to make the game better for anyone. I do that for fun.
Heck, i tend to ignore people who want to guild me, and i tend to just turn down duel request ... arguably "making the game worse" for them .. so what?
my hobby is building model cars.
I pay someone else to build em cuz it takes to much time and patience to build myself.
I have a very nice collection. Merica
This has to be a 10 ten post ever made on this site.
I'm 100% opposition to your sentiment with respect to games though. Why even play if you don't play by the rules? Games are the ideal environment for rules. That's why it's called a game. It's a contrived set of conditions, that sets what is and what is not allowed. The player is to work within these conditions to achieve, win or lose.
I feel better losing but giving an honest effort with what I've created in game, than winning, knowing I went outside the rules. I feel best winning knowing I beat someone who did go outside the rules.
again awesome post. Pure win.
edit- and you don't sound that whimpy to me
So you should have no objection to P2W.
Devs set up rules for the game, and p2w games INCLUDE rules that allow players to pay real money for power. It is sanctioned and even encourage by the rule maker, the developers.
ew
I'm so writing you out of the will!
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I don't like any cash to gold to in game currency systems. I prefer to play without. Systems without are becoming harder and harder to find though. Where I sit now, as long as not buying gold does not limit me, I can stomach it.
Again, you are all still working on the premise that everyone or even a majority buy gold or items to bypass 'work'. I don't doubt that's the most convenient point to take a high ground on and argue against, but it isn't the only reason or even the main reason people buy things in MMOs.
You build model cars. That means you probably have bought some models that are exotic or rare. You may have bought collectible models that never leave the box. If you're like my buddy who builds model cars, you also have bought display stands and lighting for your models.
You probably also travel to hobby expos and conventions, too, right?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
So you agree that p2w is part of the rules, and not cheating?
Sure, you don't like p2w rules .. that is ok. No game mechanics can make everyone happy anyway.
nottuned, do you make your model cars from scratch with plastic, and metal ore? If not, you are already paid others to do part of the work for you.
It is just a matter of degree.
It's pretty tragic to see how many ppl are ignorant ( by choice or just don't care ) to where this gold comes from. Apparently ppl have no issue with buying stolen property just as long as they don't have to see someone do it.
What goes around comes around I guess.
What stolen property? Aren't we talking about buying gold from cash shop operated by the devs?
No... That would be like asking why someone spends money on a cosmetic item. The answer is obvious.
Gold from "china" is stolen from other players accounts.
Your logic is completely broken. If this is something you really believe and not simply an excuse to justify your actions you really need to re-evaluate your thinking. Rules in games aren't a case of "the man" keeping you down. They're put in to make the game fun. If the devs don't hand you a horse at level 1, it's probably because they think that it is more fun in the long run for the players to earn it and have it be more meaningful. You're free to disagree but it isn't your game and you don't get to change the rules to suit yourself. Other people have pointed out all the harm third gold buying does in games. If the create the game, of course they create the rules everybody else plays by, and if you don't like it, don't play that game. How is that "bullying"?
The OP does not say it is about gold from "china" and MANY cash shop sell in-game currency.
And how is it the same as spending money on a cosmetic item? Buying gold in a cash shop is more p2w, and even not, can change the in-game economy, while cosmetic items do not.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
It's true that just because you "work hard" are honest, put in your time, learn everything you can that you won't necessarily rise through the ranks.
The reason that "the crooks, brown nosers, etc" rise through the ranks is that they are using a tool that is proven to work "networking".
Heck, that's the whole idea behind "Linkedin".
But you know what? You can also be a hard worker and put in your time, be honest and "still network". I realize that some might have disdain for this and it can seem slimy. I have a good friend who always got top grades, has an excellent academic pedigree but couldn't get a college position to save his life.
I know others who also have good pedigrees but who work hard at making contacts, following up, "brown nosing" in some cases and yes they tend to get what they want.
One doesn't have to cheat in order to get what they want. But ask yourself this: "who are you more likely to hire; the person you don't know but they have good stats on paper or the person you do know who you think can do the job"?
In any case, bringing it more to "on topic" I think all the valid reasons to buy gold have been covered in the thread. And yes it comes down to devs putting something in the game they think will be satisfying but for many they would rather just pay and bypass it.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Not if said games don't have the game mechanics or IP/setting that i like, and the F2P have them.
Plus, i don't see games that do not have grinds. It is actually good to let the players decide what to avoid, instead of having a one size fit all design.
Not if you love your "job".
If a game isn't enjoyable at a casual level (casual in the sense of time-commitment), then simply just quit the game and play a game that is actaully enjoyable given your time constraints.
I stopped playing several games due to the realization that they are too time demanding. This is specially true about games where you need to participate for an event/spawn that only happens a specific time of the day. Games where daily quests are very important also makes me less motivated to play; so yeah qutting is always an option.
No, I pay people to do that for me, all of it.
The only thing I do is brag to my friends at how good I am at building model cars.
This is what I think most people do. They just stop playing.
The disconnect is between what these boards complain about and what actually happens.
Most people just stop playing. The devs see those numbers stop playing and say, uh oh, the devs themselves then want to change the game. The devs are chasing the casuals.
These boards see it the other way around, that casuals are demanding change. The casuals rarely come to the boards, they just stop playing.
Convenience.
http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/8049/crydex.png
I never bought gold either but a few times when I leveled up tradeskills it can get expensive so if you want to level up tradeskills quickly and you don't have another character to "twink" the grind by sending your alt gold then I guess buying gold would be the answer.
Otherwise, if you don't have the gold to buy crafting resources you would have to spend a lot of time gathering the resources by hand (killing certain mobs, harvesting nodes, etc.) which is exactly how I did it (and probably the intent of the game's design).
Which brings me to a point to bring up: if these games didn't offer public auctions and forced players to trade goods manually (no bot-selling) then it would help minimize the gold farming.