It's pretty tragic to see how many ppl are ignorant ( by choice or just don't care ) to where this gold comes from. Apparently ppl have no issue with buying stolen property just as long as they don't have to see someone do it.
What goes around comes around I guess.
What stolen property? Aren't we talking about buying gold from cash shop operated by the devs?
No... That would be like asking why someone spends money on a cosmetic item. The answer is obvious.
Gold from "china" is stolen from other players accounts.
The OP does not say it is about gold from "china" and MANY cash shop sell in-game currency.
And how is it the same as spending money on a cosmetic item? Buying gold in a cash shop is more p2w, and even not, can change the in-game economy, while cosmetic items do not.
I'm not going to argue a red herring with you. If the money is going to the devs then it's part of the game...like it or not. If you're buying from an off site gold seller you're buying gold from someone that is stealing it from other players. If you're ok doing that....you're a pretty shitty person.
It's pretty tragic to see how many ppl are ignorant ( by choice or just don't care ) to where this gold comes from. Apparently ppl have no issue with buying stolen property just as long as they don't have to see someone do it.
What goes around comes around I guess.
What stolen property? Aren't we talking about buying gold from cash shop operated by the devs?
No... That would be like asking why someone spends money on a cosmetic item. The answer is obvious.
Gold from "china" is stolen from other players accounts.
The OP does not say it is about gold from "china" and MANY cash shop sell in-game currency.
And how is it the same as spending money on a cosmetic item? Buying gold in a cash shop is more p2w, and even not, can change the in-game economy, while cosmetic items do not.
I'm not going to argue a red herring with you. If the money is going to the devs then it's part of the game...like it or not. If you're buying from an off site gold seller you're buying gold from someone that is stealing it from other players. If you're ok doing that....you're a pretty shitty person.
i think a lot of folks forget that gold spammers are not always selling what they botted harvesting. quite a few are selling gold garnered from one source, and one source only, stolen accounts.
as for a reason, a number of people i know that have done this have typically done it in a game with a top heavy population and bloated economy, simply to "catch up."
not offering that as an excuse for them, but as a reason. while there may not always be an excuse, there is always a reason.
"There are at least two kinds of games. One could be called finite, the other infinite. A finite game is played for the purpose of winning, an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play." Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
I want to pose a question: Is buying gold different than spending IRL cash on item shop items?
Yes and No.
Yes it is different, because it flucks up the economy, (I am sorry but it does, especially in FFXIV, it has had an immense impact and I duno if it will ever be repaired.)
Yes it is different, because usually buying item shop items means that the money goes into the companie's pockets, not into the economy. Also, it isn't made using RMT/Bots/sweatshop-style work.
No it is not different because you are paying IRL cash for pixels, A short cut. Any way you slice it, you are spending extra cash on a game. Buy an EXP booster for IRL cash? "Thats Lazy" (air quotes for sarcasm). Buy gil booster for cash. "Lazy". Buy that super cool mount instead of raiding for it? "Lazy".
Either way...buying item shop items, buying Gil from gold sellers, you are taking a short cut.
So..you buy an EXP scroll that "Saves You Time", that you otherwise might not have because you work/family all the time. You buy in game gold because it "Saves You Time".
---
Now my final example.
Guild Wars 2.
Guild wars 2, you can simply "Buy Gold" through the game. "Hey let me exchange my 2000 gems for 50 gold."
Ok ok before you cry FOUL!, I understand that people can also buy gems with gold, which makes it a 2 way street. Gold goes in and out of the economy all the time keeping it "relatively stable."
---
So yes, i hate gold sellers, they piss me off, it pisses me off to see people buy 1 million gil in FFXIV for $10, while I spent a month of hard crafting/marketing to get 1 million gil.
On the other hand, I hate gold sellers, but I can understand why people would want to buy gil.
If you do buy gil, please just don't buy a mega-ton. Because when you get banned for doing so, I don't want to hear you cry about it. Or cry about being hacked. Or get me banned/my gil lost (like in FFXIV) because I sold you an item and you bought it with your IRL boughten gil.
Also- when you buy tons of gil, then buyout everything in the marketplace, it really screws up the economy. I don't have 300,000 gil to buy 1 item that should cost 100,000. But it costs 300,000 because too many Gil buyers are driving up prices.
Or...in FFXIV....Botters are mining items "auto-like" and putting tons and tons of them into the market for dirt cheap prices. How can you compete with that which has no life?
You gil buyers are then buying the botters items, which further drives down prices, making everyone poor and a top heavy United States type economy.
I am entitled to my opinions, misspellings, and grammatical errors.
I pay someone else to build em cuz it takes to much time and patience to build myself.
I have a very nice collection. Merica
Again, you are all still working on the premise that everyone or even a majority buy gold or items to bypass 'work'. I don't doubt that's the most convenient point to take a high ground on and argue against, but it isn't the only reason or even the main reason people buy things in MMOs.
You build model cars. That means you probably have bought some models that are exotic or rare. You may have bought collectible models that never leave the box. If you're like my buddy who builds model cars, you also have bought display stands and lighting for your models.
You probably also travel to hobby expos and conventions, too, right?
nottuned, do you make your model cars from scratch with plastic, and metal ore? If not, you are already paid others to do part of the work for you.
It is just a matter of degree.
No, I pay people to do that for me, all of it.
The only thing I do is brag to my friends at how good I am at building model cars.
And this is the reason why you can't have a meaningful discussion on the topic with the people who are against it. They have their assumptions, believe them as fact, and won't even attempt to rationally discuss anything that might contradict it.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
If a game isn't enjoyable at a casual level (casual in the sense of time-commitment), then simply just quit the game and play a game that is actaully enjoyable given your time constraints.
I stopped playing several games due to the realization that they are too time demanding. This is specially true about games where you need to participate for an event/spawn that only happens a specific time of the day. Games where daily quests are very important also makes me less motivated to play; so yeah qutting is always an option.
This is what I think most people do. They just stop playing.
The disconnect is between what these boards complain about and what actually happens.
Most people just stop playing. The devs see those numbers stop playing and say, uh oh, the devs themselves then want to change the game. The devs are chasing the casuals.
These boards see it the other way around, that casuals are demanding change. The casuals rarely come to the boards, they just stop playing.
AAA +1 would read again
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by Loktofeit And this is the reason why you can't have a meaningful discussion on the topic with the people who are against it. They have their assumptions, believe them as fact, and won't even attempt to rationally discuss anything that might contradict it.
This is the problem I've found with every messageboard I've partaken in on the internet.
Originally posted by bcbully It just doesn't make sense to me. I don't have a profound paragraph to write, I just want to know why. Thanks in advance.
To answer you're question honestly.
1.) Because buying gold is the way to progress faster in online MMO's take Dark Fall 1 for example, or World OF Warcraft which have been around for many years, or players are able to farm up a lot of gold, well finally the auction house, or economy prices are so high that you're average newbie to the game can't afford top Tier level 20 gear and so on for their level 20 toon only the level 70's with alternate accounts can so the simple solution is to head over to a site and buy gold.
The problem with buying gold however is that most games TOS its illegal, which I feel that Real Money Trading should be 100% legal in all MMO's.
Real Money Trading should be at the players own expense and all trades in the game are final (X) Company will not interfere with such actions except those where players are doing illegal things such as (Spamming Chat) with RMT sales, or Botting in the game to illegally obtain money/gold. (This is the only time it should be illegal and offending sellers should be banned.)
This is why Real Money Trading exists, if you take out all items from a game fix it so there is no auction house no way to trade items at all so the only way is a player can obtain items themselves everything 100% bound then there won't be a problem with RMT or gold sells.
2.) Now you might think a solution is to increase the (Gold Drop) that a monster drops for lower levels or something, but all that really does in reality is the same thing that is happening in the U.S with government bail-outs basically it puts more gold into the economy for example in wow a level 10 murloc worth like 50 copper now worth 10 silver or something but the result is inflation it doesn't help the new players at all just makes it worse.
I don't, but one of my guildmates in WoW bought gold a couple of times. Once was for the big mount with the vendor and smith on the back and the other time... I forget
People will buy gold to buy in game items that cost in game currency, be it mounts, armors/weapons, mats, potions, high end items in the Auction House, what have you. There are many "guides" on how to make "easy gold" in almost any MMO, but many people just do not have the ability to follow them. Out comes the credit card to purchase what they want in the game.
Does that help any?
Agree fully with you. I never purchased any gold, would deny very idea why i play. But I admit I was tempted once just out of frustration when after months on trying to collect money for my first mount in one game I realized I will nover get to that ammount of money in honest way. Later left game. I'm not speaking of getting everything for free in any game ... but ingame prices (not even to mention that based on so called "economy" of ah) are many times so insane that are able to ruin all fun.
People will always justify it. many people think it's all hand and glove anyway. Just another way for companies to make money. "Lets make time sinks really crappy and boring as shit so people will look for alternatives".
Using bad content as a throttle is why gold farming can happen. When was the last time you saw someone buying gold in Lord of the Rings Online? Where you can literally farm 3 Gold an hour with a tier capped Farmer, just selling cook optional, herb loots you get to a vendor.
Games use bad habits in their content and people use bad habits to combat it.
This is what I think most people do. They just stop playing.
The disconnect is between what these boards complain about and what actually happens.
Most people just stop playing. The devs see those numbers stop playing and say, uh oh, the devs themselves then want to change the game. The devs are chasing the casuals.
These boards see it the other way around, that casuals are demanding change. The casuals rarely come to the boards, they just stop playing.
AAA +1 would read again
Pretty much. Still, a minority of buyers make the invasion of games by farmers, spammers and account thieves possible.
Originally posted by Psion33 Originally posted by KrimzinOriginally posted by Psion33Originally posted by bcbullyIt just doesn't make sense to me. I don't have a profound paragraph to write, I just want to know why. Thanks in advance.
I despise the person buying the gold as much as I despise the person selling the gold. Now does that mean I wish he/she didn't have the option? No. I have no problem with despising people. Yes, they can do what they want with their own money and I can cast any judgement about them as I want with no recourse and my chosen reaction is to despise them. Nothing at all wrong with it since it's a personal notion.Jm2c. EDIT: Someone told me the other day "bro, they just trying to make a buck." My response, "sucks to be them." :P (A chat we had in DCUO...but he didn't have a response lol.) That brings up another issue. Humanity in of itself doesn't care about one anohter if/when one's own needs are met. If one's needs are met it'd take a whole lot for someone to shift their thinking to another.Let me ask you a question. Do you have a good paying job.. Be honest. Most people who have the money could care less what other people do with their own money. People who don't have extra money tend to "despise" those who the ability to do something they don't. Just curious.
I pay $0 in monthly bills other then $30/month for cell phone (which is entirely optional) and I sit on a $1100/month GI bill while going to college. Being a veteran I get free room and board on campus while receiving $1k a month play money...I don't know if that's "good paying" or not but I like the lifestyle.
Being Ex Military myself, I get it. You have no bills and $1100 a month. Kinda like living in the barracks and eating on base.
Realistically though, no $1100 a month to live on isn't that good.
With that said, if you made 4k-6k or more a month.. would spending $20 on Gold be big deal? No, Its not.
Yes, Ive done it a time or 2 in WoW, when I played. To me $20 is like going to lunch. Its nothing. So $20 vs 6-7hours of my time farming.. I would play $20 over the latter every time.
Just because I'm a gamer doesn't mean I drive a Honda.
Originally posted by Aori Originally posted by KrimzinI can only speak from my own opinion.People who buy gold are typically people who have disposable income. Someone who has disposable income typically has a good job so it limits the time they can play. They still want to keep up but don't have the time to farm gold and raid. So they buy gold to save time. I get it and could care less if they do. They work for their money and should be able to spend it how they like. I would rather someone work and buy gold then to be unemployed and have massive amounts of gold. Gold Buyer > Deadbeat any day of the week.Again.. Just my opinion.
Yes it is your opinion and it isn't correct. I've had contact with many people who squandered their real cash for money. Some failed to pay rent, some had to use savings, others had to "pawn" their account. I've even known people who were suits that got landed in to trouble from dumping 10s of thousands of dollars in virtual goods.
Many people don't have the money to spend on it but like what it does for them.
First off, How can my opinion be incorrect? Its my opinion. Get over yourself.
As to my point.
It doesn't matter if someone has a good job or not, poor judgment is poor judgment. If you make 10k a month and spend 9k on stupid shit, then your a fool. If you spend $20 here and there to buy gold, who cares. I spend $20 at lunch most days because I refuse to eat the garbage at most fast food places. Does that mean I have poor judgment.. no, it means that I watch what I eat and don't mind paying for it.
What you are posting is a matter of semantics.
You think your opinion is the only one that's right and everyone else is wrong.
Just because I'm a gamer doesn't mean I drive a Honda.
As long as a process of gaining gold in game can be automated by china farmers, they will offer it for sale, since there is a demand from players. Lots of reasons to buy some gold already listed on previous pages.
One of hard ways to disable all gold sellers completely I saw only in FireFall. There is no player to player trade at all, nor in game mail. Another way to fight gold sellers is when game developers provide a way to buy gold or something tradeable in game (usually game time or some reroll/respec scrolls) official way, for real money. That limit gold sellers prices but do not shut down them completely.
I would like to see MMO games without gold farmers and scammers, but I afraid it's hardly achievable, until someone invents a way to get rid of them without hurting a game.
Originally posted by Dixi01 As long as a process of gaining gold in game can be automated by china farmers, they will offer it for sale, since there is a demand from players. Lots of reasons to buy some gold already listed on previous pages.One of hard ways to disable all gold sellers completely I saw only in FireFall. There is no player to player trade at all, nor in game mail. Another way to fight gold sellers is when game developers provide a way to buy gold or something tradeable in game (usually game time or some reroll/respec scrolls) official way, for real money. That limit gold sellers prices but do not shut down them completely.I would like to see MMO games without gold farmers and scammers, but I afraid it's hardly achievable, until someone invents a way to get rid of them without hurting a game.
When you take out the ability to trade with players, you make it feel like a single player game. Part of any MMO is the economy. Being able to farm items, make items and sell items for gold is a driving force to all MMOs. If you couldn't do any of those things, you would have almost nothing to do.
Sony had the best solution, make all things including characters sellable through their website. It virtually eliminated gold sellers in their games. In Vanguard, You could post your character for sale, Sony would move the character from your account to the buyers account and the deal was done. No Scamming, No hacking...just straight commerce.
Gold Sellers are greedy. If a player has the ability to farm and sell gold to other players legitimately, they will undercut a gold seller everyday of the week. Its been proven in Vanguard and other sony games.
Just because I'm a gamer doesn't mean I drive a Honda.
As long as a process of gaining gold in game can be automated by china farmers, they will offer it for sale, since there is a demand from players. Lots of reasons to buy some gold already listed on previous pages.
One of hard ways to disable all gold sellers completely I saw only in FireFall. There is no player to player trade at all, nor in game mail. Another way to fight gold sellers is when game developers provide a way to buy gold or something tradeable in game (usually game time or some reroll/respec scrolls) official way, for real money. That limit gold sellers prices but do not shut down them completely.
I would like to see MMO games without gold farmers and scammers, but I afraid it's hardly achievable, until someone invents a way to get rid of them without hurting a game.
The best way of getting rid of chinese gold sellers is to have a cash shop that sells currency. No one can compete with the devs who can create gold at will.
Just price the chinese gold sellers out of the market.
Sometimes, I prefer to occasionally play MMOs like a Pharaoh of old.
I reward little trinkets (real money) to hundreds of peasants (players with lots of free time and no income) and they do all the boring grind work for me. They will run back breathing heavy, exhausted, and drop a few bags of hard earned items at my feet.
I might occasionally pat them on the head and offer them a small piece of wisdom, like "You can be like me if you keep working hard".
"Because spending additional funds ill increase the enjoyment of what I am doing in game."
Take any other reasons out of it because that sums it all up. You are playing a game and people who buy additional resources; be they currency, cash shop items, subscription fees, VIP packages, account unlocks, or whatever, do so because it makes them enjoy their entertainment more.
The reasons they do differ from person to person.
* RPers might want costumes to pimp their look
* PVPers might want to skip the level grind
* PVEers might be looking to mix/max their stats to catch up with friends to raid with them
* Someone may have inadequecy issues and just wants to show off
The reason doesn't matter. They do so because it makes the game, and hence their time, more enjoyable. If the game is free to play, any money you spend is usually avoiding some kind of grind. To me it doesn't really matter as you are trading time for money regardless of who you are paying. Sure there are exceptions, but not many.
Impatience to have or attain "things", and/or a need to be competitive or superior to other players as soon as possible, is typically the motivation behind it in my experience.
I've seen and discussed a lot of different explanations, excuses and rationalizations for it, but many of them only work if you look at them superficially. The moment you start thinking about what's being said, and the implications behind it (sometimes those implications are spelled out as well, making it easier to connect the dots), the picture becomes clearer. Again, in every case, it's boiled down to impatience or that need to be competitive.
The "more money than time" argument comes up a lot. It surely works great as a personal rationalization of why it's "okay" to the individual doing it, but it is hardly a sound explanation in any other way. What it really boils down to is someone wanting something faster than they'd be able to get it otherwise. The only value they perceive is having a "thing", whatever that "thing" may be.
They don't perceive the gameplay required to get it as part of the experience - it's just something getting in the way of what they want. Saying "I don't have the time to spend getting it otherwise", is really saying "I don't have the free time to get it as quickly as I'd like to, and I don't have the patience to get it by playing the game as it's designed" - only they never mention that italicized part. Of course they wouldn't. It puts the onus on them, which is precisely what they don't want. First rule of defending indefensible behavior: always shift the blame and responsibility of your actions to someone or something else.
People will say "well, it takes far too long to get anything done in this game! The designers are idiots!". Again, an argument that - on the surface - seems to make sense. However, it's easily dismantled with a simple question: Too long compared to what? There is no objective, all-encompassing "rule" of "how long any thing in a MMORPG should take". What's "too long" for one person might be just fine for someone else. So, too long compared to what? Well, too long compared to what the individual making the argument would prefer, of course. But they can't acknowledge that. They can't say "It takes longer than I'd like it to", because now they're acknowledging that it's a personal quip, and not a universal issue. And, when you're trying to justify behavior such as buying in-game money, you have to make sure the blame and responsibility lands on anyone but yourself. So, they argue it as a "universal truth" and blame it on the game/developers, hence justifying their engagement in RMT - at least to themselves.
As another example, often times, people will defend buying in-game money by saying "well, the game is so horribly designed and dragged out, that it forces you to buy money just to be able to play it". This is, again, someone freeing themselves of any personal responsibility in the act, by putting the blame on something else (the game/developers). And, for good measure, they'll often say the game "forces" them to buy money. Yep, they play the victim card. So, not only are they justfied (in their own minds) for what they're doing... they are the victim. The game is forcing them to buy that in-game money. It's the game that's the problem. Not them. Of course, this, too is nonsense. It's just another example of how people will spin rationalizations to excuse their own behavior in a situation and avoid any personal responsibility in the matter.
Buying in-game money in a MMO - specifically where such activity is prohibited (a detail so many love to conveniently ignore as though it doesn't apply to them) - is a choice made by people who aren't so much interested in playing the game, as they are in obtaining "things" as quickly as possible. No matter the excuse, explanation, rationalization, justification or spin-doctoring... it boils down to impatience. Nothing more.
The same reason everyone will ignore this great response because they don't want to see the ugly truth. The "casual" player argument boils down to usually impatience, greed, laziness, and unwillingness to learn to overcome challenges.
Originally posted by dave6660 By paying to skip parts of the game you don't like or to avoid long / boring grinds you are indirectly advocating that design. Wouldn't a better use for your money be putting it toward games that don't have said "features"?
Not if said games don't have the game mechanics or IP/setting that i like, and the F2P have them.
Plus, i don't see games that do not have grinds. It is actually good to let the players decide what to avoid, instead of having a one size fit all design.
Nariusseldon didn't refute any point you made. He actually strengthened your argument unknowingly. If these so called "casual" players would stop playing games that don't meet their desires that they have to go so far as to go outside of the game with real money and buy things to make it playable, the "F2P" of today wouldn't exist, which is designed with long grinds just to make you buy things. What fun is a poorly designed game? If you are the majority as you say, and didn't pay for games that you felt are so poorly designed you have to do this, games would be designed to meet your needs.
Instead people buy games they apparently find tedious, boring, too challenging, whatever ever reason they feel they have to pay someone else to by pass parts of the game you pay to play .... creating the FTP market. I bet developers ever imagined people would pay money for something that didn't exist. I bet they are laughing all the way to the bank. They probably though people wanted fun games to enjoy their time in, who would have thought.
Originally posted by KrimzinI can only speak from my own opinion.People who buy gold are typically people who have disposable income. Someone who has disposable income typically has a good job so it limits the time they can play. They still want to keep up but don't have the time to farm gold and raid. So they buy gold to save time. I get it and could care less if they do. They work for their money and should be able to spend it how they like. I would rather someone work and buy gold then to be unemployed and have massive amounts of gold. Gold Buyer > Deadbeat any day of the week.Again.. Just my opinion.
Yes it is your opinion and it isn't correct. I've had contact with many people who squandered their real cash for money. Some failed to pay rent, some had to use savings, others had to "pawn" their account. I've even known people who were suits that got landed in to trouble from dumping 10s of thousands of dollars in virtual goods.
Many people don't have the money to spend on it but like what it does for them.
First off, How can my opinion be incorrect? Its my opinion. Get over yourself.
As to my point.
It doesn't matter if someone has a good job or not, poor judgment is poor judgment. If you make 10k a month and spend 9k on stupid shit, then your a fool. If you spend $20 here and there to buy gold, who cares. I spend $20 at lunch most days because I refuse to eat the garbage at most fast food places. Does that mean I have poor judgment.. no, it means that I watch what I eat and don't mind paying for it.
What you are posting is a matter of semantics.
You think your opinion is the only one that's right and everyone else is wrong.
I don't think people despise you for your money. Good for you. They probably despise your self entitled attitude, bragging, and all around conceded attitude. Truth is there are plenty people out there probably smarter than you and not as smart as you. Having money usually doesn't mean you are smart, it means you kiss butt well. Money doesn't make you are likable person. But that is okay, I think you like yourself enough to make up for it.
Impatience to have or attain "things", and/or a need to be competitive or superior to other players as soon as possible, is typically the motivation behind it in my experience.
<snipped, see post 152 for full body>
Buying in-game money in a MMO - specifically where such activity is prohibited (a detail so many love to conveniently ignore as though it doesn't apply to them) - is a choice made by people who aren't so much interested in playing the game, as they are in obtaining "things" as quickly as possible. No matter the excuse, explanation, rationalization, justification or spin-doctoring... it boils down to impatience. Nothing more.
If you read Tanget's post (#152), it's well written, and I agree with a lot of it.
However, I disagree with some of the conclusion. While I agree that it is a way to subvert the time to acquire things, I disagree that they are not interested in playing the game. Instead, I would say that those people are just not interested in doing certain things in the game. They may enjoy other parts that are gated to them by some kind of time sink. Since you are playing a game, doing things you enjoy is what I see as the goal of that activity.
So if I have a choice of avoiding things I don't enjoy, to do things I do enjoy, I would be very favorably inclined to do them.
I may play a game for three months. However, if the part of the game I like takes me two months to get there of things I don't like, then I have wasted two months. When I could have been enjoying my time for all three months. Again it doesn't matter what "IT" is; PvP, PvE, Raids, Exploration, Looks, RP, whatever. So while, yes, I am perhaps impatient, it is not because I don't want to play the game. It's because I don't want to play a certain part of the game... whatever that may be.
Assuming that people should like every aspect of whatever game they are playing is just like saying if you are watching a recorded program, you should also watch the all commercials. It's how the network intended you to see the content. Other people who watched it live had to suffer through those breaks and by "paying" for a service (DVR) you are subverting that content. Are you impatient or are you smart for skipping content that you have no desire to see?
Since everyone has a limit to their free time, it's very reasonable for them to try to acquire "things" faster if it's going to make them enjoy their remaining free time even more. So while I can see labeling it as impatient, I tend to think it's more of choosing what I wish to do with my free time. Impatient has negative connotations that I am not sure always fit to why people want things faster. That's your implication since you see no value in what they do.
It's just like people who argue for RMT claiming that people who grind their content are nothing but basement dwelling losers with no life. Yes, they likely have more free time in general, but the stereotype is not fair and does a disservice for those that enjoy that time gated content.
It's fair to say that people who RMT want things faster, but projecting your rationale is not. Nice post, well thought out, but I feel slightly missing the mark.
Comments
i think a lot of folks forget that gold spammers are not always selling what they botted harvesting. quite a few are selling gold garnered from one source, and one source only, stolen accounts.
as for a reason, a number of people i know that have done this have typically done it in a game with a top heavy population and bloated economy, simply to "catch up."
not offering that as an excuse for them, but as a reason. while there may not always be an excuse, there is always a reason.
"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
I want to pose a question: Is buying gold different than spending IRL cash on item shop items?
Yes and No.
Yes it is different, because it flucks up the economy, (I am sorry but it does, especially in FFXIV, it has had an immense impact and I duno if it will ever be repaired.)
Yes it is different, because usually buying item shop items means that the money goes into the companie's pockets, not into the economy. Also, it isn't made using RMT/Bots/sweatshop-style work.
No it is not different because you are paying IRL cash for pixels, A short cut. Any way you slice it, you are spending extra cash on a game. Buy an EXP booster for IRL cash? "Thats Lazy" (air quotes for sarcasm). Buy gil booster for cash. "Lazy". Buy that super cool mount instead of raiding for it? "Lazy".
Either way...buying item shop items, buying Gil from gold sellers, you are taking a short cut.
So..you buy an EXP scroll that "Saves You Time", that you otherwise might not have because you work/family all the time. You buy in game gold because it "Saves You Time".
---
Now my final example.
Guild Wars 2.
Guild wars 2, you can simply "Buy Gold" through the game. "Hey let me exchange my 2000 gems for 50 gold."
Ok ok before you cry FOUL!, I understand that people can also buy gems with gold, which makes it a 2 way street. Gold goes in and out of the economy all the time keeping it "relatively stable."
---
So yes, i hate gold sellers, they piss me off, it pisses me off to see people buy 1 million gil in FFXIV for $10, while I spent a month of hard crafting/marketing to get 1 million gil.
On the other hand, I hate gold sellers, but I can understand why people would want to buy gil.
If you do buy gil, please just don't buy a mega-ton. Because when you get banned for doing so, I don't want to hear you cry about it. Or cry about being hacked. Or get me banned/my gil lost (like in FFXIV) because I sold you an item and you bought it with your IRL boughten gil.
Also- when you buy tons of gil, then buyout everything in the marketplace, it really screws up the economy. I don't have 300,000 gil to buy 1 item that should cost 100,000. But it costs 300,000 because too many Gil buyers are driving up prices.
Or...in FFXIV....Botters are mining items "auto-like" and putting tons and tons of them into the market for dirt cheap prices. How can you compete with that which has no life?
You gil buyers are then buying the botters items, which further drives down prices, making everyone poor and a top heavy United States type economy.
I am entitled to my opinions, misspellings, and grammatical errors.
And this is the reason why you can't have a meaningful discussion on the topic with the people who are against it. They have their assumptions, believe them as fact, and won't even attempt to rationally discuss anything that might contradict it.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
AAA +1 would read again
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I buy gold because i need it and don't have time or don't have enough man power to get it from game.
I never buy gold for my personal use but there are time i fund with my guild mates to buy gold to keep guild hall and other suit.
Sometime you can't earn enough gold to use in game > RMT and buy gold.
other case buy gold to keep they in game rank because they hate to lost to other , they enjoy to stay in top and spend money to keep they seat
I can grind for 5 hours or I can work at my job for 10 mins and use that money to avoid the grind.
Hmm... I wonder which one I'd choose; 5 Hours vs 10 mins
Tough choice....
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
This is the problem I've found with every messageboard I've partaken in on the internet.
To answer you're question honestly.
1.) Because buying gold is the way to progress faster in online MMO's take Dark Fall 1 for example, or World OF Warcraft which have been around for many years, or players are able to farm up a lot of gold, well finally the auction house, or economy prices are so high that you're average newbie to the game can't afford top Tier level 20 gear and so on for their level 20 toon only the level 70's with alternate accounts can so the simple solution is to head over to a site and buy gold.
The problem with buying gold however is that most games TOS its illegal, which I feel that Real Money Trading should be 100% legal in all MMO's.
Real Money Trading should be at the players own expense and all trades in the game are final (X) Company will not interfere with such actions except those where players are doing illegal things such as (Spamming Chat) with RMT sales, or Botting in the game to illegally obtain money/gold. (This is the only time it should be illegal and offending sellers should be banned.)
This is why Real Money Trading exists, if you take out all items from a game fix it so there is no auction house no way to trade items at all so the only way is a player can obtain items themselves everything 100% bound then there won't be a problem with RMT or gold sells.
2.) Now you might think a solution is to increase the (Gold Drop) that a monster drops for lower levels or something, but all that really does in reality is the same thing that is happening in the U.S with government bail-outs basically it puts more gold into the economy for example in wow a level 10 murloc worth like 50 copper now worth 10 silver or something but the result is inflation it doesn't help the new players at all just makes it worse.
Agree fully with you. I never purchased any gold, would deny very idea why i play. But I admit I was tempted once just out of frustration when after months on trying to collect money for my first mount in one game I realized I will nover get to that ammount of money in honest way. Later left game. I'm not speaking of getting everything for free in any game ... but ingame prices (not even to mention that based on so called "economy" of ah) are many times so insane that are able to ruin all fun.
People will always justify it. many people think it's all hand and glove anyway. Just another way for companies to make money. "Lets make time sinks really crappy and boring as shit so people will look for alternatives".
Using bad content as a throttle is why gold farming can happen. When was the last time you saw someone buying gold in Lord of the Rings Online? Where you can literally farm 3 Gold an hour with a tier capped Farmer, just selling cook optional, herb loots you get to a vendor.
Games use bad habits in their content and people use bad habits to combat it.
Pretty much. Still, a minority of buyers make the invasion of games by farmers, spammers and account thieves possible.
My computer is better than yours.
Let me ask you a question. Do you have a good paying job.. Be honest. Most people who have the money could care less what other people do with their own money. People who don't have extra money tend to "despise" those who the ability to do something they don't. Just curious.
I pay $0 in monthly bills other then $30/month for cell phone (which is entirely optional) and I sit on a $1100/month GI bill while going to college. Being a veteran I get free room and board on campus while receiving $1k a month play money...I don't know if that's "good paying" or not but I like the lifestyle.
Being Ex Military myself, I get it. You have no bills and $1100 a month. Kinda like living in the barracks and eating on base.
Realistically though, no $1100 a month to live on isn't that good.
With that said, if you made 4k-6k or more a month.. would spending $20 on Gold be big deal? No, Its not.
Yes, Ive done it a time or 2 in WoW, when I played. To me $20 is like going to lunch. Its nothing. So $20 vs 6-7hours of my time farming.. I would play $20 over the latter every time.
Lets see your Battle Stations /r/battlestations
Battle Station
Many people don't have the money to spend on it but like what it does for them.
First off, How can my opinion be incorrect? Its my opinion. Get over yourself.
As to my point.
It doesn't matter if someone has a good job or not, poor judgment is poor judgment.
If you make 10k a month and spend 9k on stupid shit, then your a fool.
If you spend $20 here and there to buy gold, who cares. I spend $20 at lunch most days because I refuse to eat the garbage at most fast food places. Does that mean I have poor judgment.. no, it means that I watch what I eat and don't mind paying for it.
What you are posting is a matter of semantics.
You think your opinion is the only one that's right and everyone else is wrong.
Lets see your Battle Stations /r/battlestations
Battle Station
As long as a process of gaining gold in game can be automated by china farmers, they will offer it for sale, since there is a demand from players. Lots of reasons to buy some gold already listed on previous pages.
One of hard ways to disable all gold sellers completely I saw only in FireFall. There is no player to player trade at all, nor in game mail. Another way to fight gold sellers is when game developers provide a way to buy gold or something tradeable in game (usually game time or some reroll/respec scrolls) official way, for real money. That limit gold sellers prices but do not shut down them completely.
I would like to see MMO games without gold farmers and scammers, but I afraid it's hardly achievable, until someone invents a way to get rid of them without hurting a game.
When you take out the ability to trade with players, you make it feel like a single player game. Part of any MMO is the economy. Being able to farm items, make items and sell items for gold is a driving force to all MMOs. If you couldn't do any of those things, you would have almost nothing to do.
Sony had the best solution, make all things including characters sellable through their website. It virtually eliminated gold sellers in their games. In Vanguard, You could post your character for sale, Sony would move the character from your account to the buyers account and the deal was done. No Scamming, No hacking...just straight commerce.
Gold Sellers are greedy. If a player has the ability to farm and sell gold to other players legitimately, they will undercut a gold seller everyday of the week. Its been proven in Vanguard and other sony games.
Lets see your Battle Stations /r/battlestations
Battle Station
BUY GOLD
-never have
-never will
-report every gold spammer I can
The best way of getting rid of chinese gold sellers is to have a cash shop that sells currency. No one can compete with the devs who can create gold at will.
Just price the chinese gold sellers out of the market.
Sometimes, I prefer to occasionally play MMOs like a Pharaoh of old.
I reward little trinkets (real money) to hundreds of peasants (players with lots of free time and no income) and they do all the boring grind work for me. They will run back breathing heavy, exhausted, and drop a few bags of hard earned items at my feet.
I might occasionally pat them on the head and offer them a small piece of wisdom, like "You can be like me if you keep working hard".
Think of it as emergent gameplay.
-WL
Werewolf Online(R) - Lead Developer
I'll answer the OP:
"Because spending additional funds ill increase the enjoyment of what I am doing in game."
Take any other reasons out of it because that sums it all up. You are playing a game and people who buy additional resources; be they currency, cash shop items, subscription fees, VIP packages, account unlocks, or whatever, do so because it makes them enjoy their entertainment more.
The reasons they do differ from person to person.
* RPers might want costumes to pimp their look
* PVPers might want to skip the level grind
* PVEers might be looking to mix/max their stats to catch up with friends to raid with them
* Someone may have inadequecy issues and just wants to show off
The reason doesn't matter. They do so because it makes the game, and hence their time, more enjoyable. If the game is free to play, any money you spend is usually avoiding some kind of grind. To me it doesn't really matter as you are trading time for money regardless of who you are paying. Sure there are exceptions, but not many.
The same reason everyone will ignore this great response because they don't want to see the ugly truth. The "casual" player argument boils down to usually impatience, greed, laziness, and unwillingness to learn to overcome challenges.
Nariusseldon didn't refute any point you made. He actually strengthened your argument unknowingly. If these so called "casual" players would stop playing games that don't meet their desires that they have to go so far as to go outside of the game with real money and buy things to make it playable, the "F2P" of today wouldn't exist, which is designed with long grinds just to make you buy things. What fun is a poorly designed game? If you are the majority as you say, and didn't pay for games that you felt are so poorly designed you have to do this, games would be designed to meet your needs.
Instead people buy games they apparently find tedious, boring, too challenging, whatever ever reason they feel they have to pay someone else to by pass parts of the game you pay to play .... creating the FTP market. I bet developers ever imagined people would pay money for something that didn't exist. I bet they are laughing all the way to the bank. They probably though people wanted fun games to enjoy their time in, who would have thought.
I don't think people despise you for your money. Good for you. They probably despise your self entitled attitude, bragging, and all around conceded attitude. Truth is there are plenty people out there probably smarter than you and not as smart as you. Having money usually doesn't mean you are smart, it means you kiss butt well. Money doesn't make you are likable person. But that is okay, I think you like yourself enough to make up for it.
Hmmmm ...... play a game I don't really enjoy or pay someone else to play it ... tough choice?
If you read Tanget's post (#152), it's well written, and I agree with a lot of it.
However, I disagree with some of the conclusion. While I agree that it is a way to subvert the time to acquire things, I disagree that they are not interested in playing the game. Instead, I would say that those people are just not interested in doing certain things in the game. They may enjoy other parts that are gated to them by some kind of time sink. Since you are playing a game, doing things you enjoy is what I see as the goal of that activity.
So if I have a choice of avoiding things I don't enjoy, to do things I do enjoy, I would be very favorably inclined to do them.
I may play a game for three months. However, if the part of the game I like takes me two months to get there of things I don't like, then I have wasted two months. When I could have been enjoying my time for all three months. Again it doesn't matter what "IT" is; PvP, PvE, Raids, Exploration, Looks, RP, whatever. So while, yes, I am perhaps impatient, it is not because I don't want to play the game. It's because I don't want to play a certain part of the game... whatever that may be.
Assuming that people should like every aspect of whatever game they are playing is just like saying if you are watching a recorded program, you should also watch the all commercials. It's how the network intended you to see the content. Other people who watched it live had to suffer through those breaks and by "paying" for a service (DVR) you are subverting that content. Are you impatient or are you smart for skipping content that you have no desire to see?
Since everyone has a limit to their free time, it's very reasonable for them to try to acquire "things" faster if it's going to make them enjoy their remaining free time even more. So while I can see labeling it as impatient, I tend to think it's more of choosing what I wish to do with my free time. Impatient has negative connotations that I am not sure always fit to why people want things faster. That's your implication since you see no value in what they do.
It's just like people who argue for RMT claiming that people who grind their content are nothing but basement dwelling losers with no life. Yes, they likely have more free time in general, but the stereotype is not fair and does a disservice for those that enjoy that time gated content.
It's fair to say that people who RMT want things faster, but projecting your rationale is not. Nice post, well thought out, but I feel slightly missing the mark.