Although the whole paragraph was on point this quote from Chris is perfect
"Whoever decided that all players should reach the level cap moved this genre from journey to destination."
Level cap should be a privilege with dedication, level cap should not be a rite.
This.
Why can't I play a game where level X seems a distant dream, but just adventuring at level 20 or such seems an enjoyable journey.
Plus, give me drops that I can use for some time. What's the point in getting an epic level 10 sword of dragon slaying if it's out of date within 25 minutes of game play?
I second that. Getting to level cap and/or getting the best gear is supposed to be special. It is not special if houndreds of people has done it, within a month of release.
A good topic, but I felt like both you guys (Chris & Bill) went very light on this topic.
For starters, it has PVP in the title, and yet almost nothing you guys talked about had anything to do w/ PvP. It was all about raiding, progression, exploration. I.E. PvE factors.
And while those factors are very relevant towards making a game feel like a virtual world, they have nothing to do with whether the combat / pvp is actually any good, or how challenging the game actually is. You also, VERY briefly, touch on how the # of skills don't necessarily translate into difficulty. Definitely agree with Bill on that point.
Overall, I do think MMOs have gotten too easy. I've thought this for a while. And it is indeed at large due to Blizzard's 'make WoW the most accessible game on the market' approach. As was pointed out, those games sell better. And more sales lead to better production value. And higher production value means a shiner game, means that more people will try it.
I also agree that MMOs (for the most part) were never that hard to begin with. I would love to see more mechanics like we have in games like DotA 2, or Dark Souls, or Dragon's Dogma, or Jedi Knight. I'd love to start seeing MMOs where skill was determined by mastery over interesting / complex mechanics, rather than passive stats. Press 1 is easy. Timing difficult to use mechanics, isn't. And there's pleanty of examples of how this can be done, if we open up our designs to encorperate mechanics from other genres.
I remember having this discussion on these boards before. I have yet to have seen an MMO that was "hard" and I have been playing MMOs since 2002 with Neocron being my first. I didn't play EQ becuase it looked pretty lame to me at the time (jumps in flame proof suit) plus I was playing Day of Defeat, when it was a mod, heavily. And yes, just like in the older conversation I did do some raiding in MMO as well. People seem to confuse gear grind, or learning a Boss pattern as hard more and more lately and often recite certain raids from back in the day to prove their point. Sorry that doesn't hold water with me. Unless they make a Dark Souls MMO (which I actually hope they don't), then I will continue to see PVE in MMOs as easy just like I always have.
Anyone with a clear view of the past can see that the dumbing down of MMOs started with DAOC.
Its the game that started the "shiny" for PvP. Presented PvP in a way where it was zerg over skill, button mashing over style, invented the phrase "face-rolling". The game that introduced the gear over skill mindset. The first game to have people create a damage spreadsheet to measure if another player is good enough to join a team.
Its the very game WoW was built upon.
PvP rewards
more people = better
latest tear gear sets required, because without that extra .3% damage you aren't leet enough.
no point to PvP unless there is some kind of shiny reward for doing it.
Hell, you cant get any more dumbed down than a game designed by people saying that players are so stupid we have to separate the races so they wont get confused who the enemy is. And we have to create pride in a faction for the player. THAT is where the dumbing down began, no respect for the players.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Originally posted by rodingo I remember having this discussion on these boards before. I have yet to have seen an MMO that was "hard" and I have been playing MMOs since 2002 with Neocron being my first. I didn't play EQ becuase it looked pretty lame to me at the time (jumps in flame proof suit) plus I was playing Day of Defeat, when it was a mod, heavily. And yes, just like in the older conversation I did do some raiding in MMO as well. People seem to confuse gear grind, or learning a Boss pattern as hard more and more lately and often recite certain raids from back in the day to prove their point. Sorry that doesn't hold water with me. Unless they make a Dark Souls MMO (which I actually hope they don't), then I will continue to see PVE in MMOs as easy just like I always have.
I agree, the MMO genre has never been mechanically difficult. I'm sure I've used the terms "hard" and "easy" when referring to MMOs before, but I think I should be using the terms "unforgiving" and "forgiving".
The cattle call of the last generation of MMOs ... has been accessibility. Let’s look at what we lost with that: meaningful grouping, long term goals, dangerous worlds with real risk vs reward, being able to excel beyond the “level playing field.” That’s a shame because I was under the impression we were playing in virtual worlds. The games of today feel a lot more like playpens where nobody’s a loser and everybody wins.
I agree with Chris. Too much has been lost while aiming for accessibility. I think Dark Souls (Even though it's not a MMO) did a great thing for all games. It showed that players actually want difficulty and developers paid attention because it made money. The same can be said about Minecraft. It showed that players can thrive in creative environments and make their own fun.
What's great about these games isn't that they tried something new and innovative, because for the most part they didn't, it's that they are not just succeeding but thriving in a market that is flooded with the exact opposite. This gets developers to pay attention and changes the current trends. I imagine, in the not too distant future, we will be seeing a substantial rise in the difficulty across all game genres and I can't wait. I am sick of getting everything handing to me just for showing up.
The change in trends can't come fast enough for me.
Forget minecraft, Wurm Online makes minecraft look micky mouse.
Yes and Dark Souls is great but once you have been through the game it really is easy after that.
Just look at this article and the subsequent posts in this thread. How can anybody on this site claim that there aren't a significant amount of people who want a change in the genre? Even Bill, the guy arguing in favor of modern games, admits to their alleged faults.
Originally posted by Holophonist Just look at this article and the subsequent posts in this thread. How can anybody on this site claim that there aren't a significant amount of people who want a change in the genre? Even Bill, the guy arguing in favor of modern games, admits to their alleged faults.
Get 2 people to agree on what actually makes a game "hard" and you'd be farther ahead than any dev has ever been.
Yes they have become too easy. I disagree with people in this thread that claim World of Warcraft was too easy. Please hear me out. I think World of Warcraft in the beginning was spot on. The current version of World of Warcraft is garbage.
Everquest was not hard, it was time consuming and had force grouping. I am not bashing Everquest, I love that game dearly. It was difficult for it's own reasons but not because of the combat. World of Warcraft in the beginning was accessible as in you could do things on your own solo to level but there was some really really fun dungeons and raids .
The dungeons required teamwork to get through and were a tons of fun. Classes had to crowd control, control their agro, heal and tank properly which required positioning and care. The dungeons were wonderful.
I miss Everquest and World of Warcraft before they were turned into garbage with expansion packs. I would play either one of them today for different reasons.
Anyone with a clear view of the past can see that the dumbing down of MMOs started with DAOC.
Its the game that started the "shiny" for PvP. Presented PvP in a way where it was zerg over skill, button mashing over style, invented the phrase "face-rolling". The game that introduced the gear over skill mindset. The first game to have people create a damage spreadsheet to measure if another player is good enough to join a team.
Its the very game WoW was built upon.
PvP rewards
more people = better
latest tear gear sets required, because without that extra .3% damage you aren't leet enough.
no point to PvP unless there is some kind of shiny reward for doing it.
Hell, you cant get any more dumbed down than a game designed by people saying that players are so stupid we have to separate the races so they wont get confused who the enemy is. And we have to create pride in a faction for the player. THAT is where the dumbing down began, no respect for the players.
I disagree somewhat. DAOC was not a gear grinding game and there were positionals you had to use for melee attacks, and casters were rooted while casting, and could be interrupted easily to where they couldn't cast...Tanks actually had a purpose to shield healers and casters.
I never grinded for gear, we bought player made gear and it was the best you could get before the abysmal ToA came along. I quit after that, no idea how the game is now. I just know before ToA, the game was the best RvR/Pvp game I've ever played. No gear grind and each realm had a sense of pride never seen in today's mmorpg's.
Originally posted by Holophonist Just look at this article and the subsequent posts in this thread. How can anybody on this site claim that there aren't a significant amount of people who want a change in the genre? Even Bill, the guy arguing in favor of modern games, admits to their alleged faults.
Get 2 people to agree on what actually makes a game "hard" and you'd be farther ahead than any dev has ever been.
I'm not claiming to be able to produce an MMO, even if asked to make a game just for myself. I'm just saying that a lot of people are disappointed/upset with modern MMOs and want a change.
Keep in mind thata lot of difficulty in the past was - in many cases - equivalent to mindless timesink and repeting the same stuff over and over again. This had absolutely nothing to do with difficulty. "Modern" games got rid of timesinks, while doing little about difficulty.
There are/were exceptions (not without their own shortcomings, e.g. EvE, pre-f2p Tera, Neocron), but few and far between.
And what is wrong with time sinks? farming mobs, harvesting, travel and the like. i dont understand why people keep referring to time sinks as bad things.
Keep in mind thata lot of difficulty in the past was - in many cases - equivalent to mindless timesink and repeting the same stuff over and over again. This had absolutely nothing to do with difficulty. "Modern" games got rid of timesinks, while doing little about difficulty.
There are/were exceptions (not without their own shortcomings, e.g. EvE, pre-f2p Tera, Neocron), but few and far between.
And what is wrong with time sinks? farming mobs, harvesting, travel and the like. i dont understand why people keep referring to time sinks as bad things.
I agree. People seem to think that time sinks meant simply more time in game. That's not necessarily true. It just means that the things you're doing in game take longer. You don't blow through content like you do now.
I LOVE IT!!! Look at all the POST! I didn't even know there was anyone else out there that yearned for an actual game that felt like when you where doing something it was a task and not a pain in the ***, or gave that since of hey i accomplished that makes me quit so many games. I agree with the two. I'm old school like most of the people here are. I'm not looking for the exact same games i played before. Just one that gives that same feeling. I like some of the new things they have added to game, but the one thing i miss is the demand to be in a party. I don't want to be grouped with a bot, and don't try sell health potions. Make me make them. It seems that they did away with the death penalty and added the armor durability loss which to me isn't the same and where it fits in some game i think in most it falls short. I say bring back the Hard ways, and some things from the new games.
Nothing will compare to Asheron's Call PVP. Still the best system IMO.
I run the Mature Minded Gamers. We do video and board gaming videos and reviews. We also have a big Dungeons and Dragons community with multiple games active each week. Join us at: https://www.maturemindedgamers.com
I completely agree - It truly seems like game companies have forgotten that their "market" is getting older and want a challenge, yet continue to cater to the 'everyone gets a trophy' demographic. Like many here have stated, it just puts me off of the game that much faster. In fact, I can't remember a recent mmo title that has held my interest for more than six weeks...
Frankly, I could care less if the combat is 'dumbed down' or 'challenging'. When the entire game has been stripped of anything but combat, the game feels dumbed down, even when the combat is challenging.
Similarly, making the combat easier isn't going to draw in the kinds of people that will stick with an MMO, when mere quest chains and combat is all the game can offer. Where is the personalization? Where are the roleplay tools? Where is the platform for creativity?
Personally, I thought CoH was "too easy". Yet I loved that game, because the extra things there were so good, I didn't mind that the combat was too easy. To be frank, I probably wouldn't have liked CoH so much if the combat was harder, because combat--for me at least--was a means...the end was always self-expression and growth.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
They are much easier today, I can just buy my achievements and gear. All you do is just clickity click click click that dag ole internets and I got me some of that purple gear
Comments
I second that. Getting to level cap and/or getting the best gear is supposed to be special. It is not special if houndreds of people has done it, within a month of release.
My gaming blog
A good topic, but I felt like both you guys (Chris & Bill) went very light on this topic.
For starters, it has PVP in the title, and yet almost nothing you guys talked about had anything to do w/ PvP. It was all about raiding, progression, exploration. I.E. PvE factors.
And while those factors are very relevant towards making a game feel like a virtual world, they have nothing to do with whether the combat / pvp is actually any good, or how challenging the game actually is. You also, VERY briefly, touch on how the # of skills don't necessarily translate into difficulty. Definitely agree with Bill on that point.
Overall, I do think MMOs have gotten too easy. I've thought this for a while. And it is indeed at large due to Blizzard's 'make WoW the most accessible game on the market' approach. As was pointed out, those games sell better. And more sales lead to better production value. And higher production value means a shiner game, means that more people will try it.
I also agree that MMOs (for the most part) were never that hard to begin with. I would love to see more mechanics like we have in games like DotA 2, or Dark Souls, or Dragon's Dogma, or Jedi Knight. I'd love to start seeing MMOs where skill was determined by mastery over interesting / complex mechanics, rather than passive stats. Press 1 is easy. Timing difficult to use mechanics, isn't. And there's pleanty of examples of how this can be done, if we open up our designs to encorperate mechanics from other genres.
"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor
Anyone with a clear view of the past can see that the dumbing down of MMOs started with DAOC.
Its the game that started the "shiny" for PvP. Presented PvP in a way where it was zerg over skill, button mashing over style, invented the phrase "face-rolling". The game that introduced the gear over skill mindset. The first game to have people create a damage spreadsheet to measure if another player is good enough to join a team.
Its the very game WoW was built upon.
PvP rewards
more people = better
latest tear gear sets required, because without that extra .3% damage you aren't leet enough.
no point to PvP unless there is some kind of shiny reward for doing it.
Hell, you cant get any more dumbed down than a game designed by people saying that players are so stupid we have to separate the races so they wont get confused who the enemy is. And we have to create pride in a faction for the player. THAT is where the dumbing down began, no respect for the players.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
I agree, the MMO genre has never been mechanically difficult. I'm sure I've used the terms "hard" and "easy" when referring to MMOs before, but I think I should be using the terms "unforgiving" and "forgiving".
The cattle call of the last generation of MMOs ... has been accessibility. Let’s look at what we lost with that: meaningful grouping, long term goals, dangerous worlds with real risk vs reward, being able to excel beyond the “level playing field.” That’s a shame because I was under the impression we were playing in virtual worlds. The games of today feel a lot more like playpens where nobody’s a loser and everybody wins.
THIS!!!!!! ^^^>>>>
Forget minecraft, Wurm Online makes minecraft look micky mouse.
Yes and Dark Souls is great but once you have been through the game it really is easy after that.
What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot
Get 2 people to agree on what actually makes a game "hard" and you'd be farther ahead than any dev has ever been.
Yes they have become too easy. I disagree with people in this thread that claim World of Warcraft was too easy. Please hear me out. I think World of Warcraft in the beginning was spot on. The current version of World of Warcraft is garbage.
Everquest was not hard, it was time consuming and had force grouping. I am not bashing Everquest, I love that game dearly. It was difficult for it's own reasons but not because of the combat. World of Warcraft in the beginning was accessible as in you could do things on your own solo to level but there was some really really fun dungeons and raids .
The dungeons required teamwork to get through and were a tons of fun. Classes had to crowd control, control their agro, heal and tank properly which required positioning and care. The dungeons were wonderful.
I miss Everquest and World of Warcraft before they were turned into garbage with expansion packs. I would play either one of them today for different reasons.
I disagree somewhat. DAOC was not a gear grinding game and there were positionals you had to use for melee attacks, and casters were rooted while casting, and could be interrupted easily to where they couldn't cast...Tanks actually had a purpose to shield healers and casters.
I never grinded for gear, we bought player made gear and it was the best you could get before the abysmal ToA came along. I quit after that, no idea how the game is now. I just know before ToA, the game was the best RvR/Pvp game I've ever played. No gear grind and each realm had a sense of pride never seen in today's mmorpg's.
What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot
I'm not claiming to be able to produce an MMO, even if asked to make a game just for myself. I'm just saying that a lot of people are disappointed/upset with modern MMOs and want a change.
And what is wrong with time sinks? farming mobs, harvesting, travel and the like. i dont understand why people keep referring to time sinks as bad things.
I agree. People seem to think that time sinks meant simply more time in game. That's not necessarily true. It just means that the things you're doing in game take longer. You don't blow through content like you do now.
I LOVE IT!!! Look at all the POST! I didn't even know there was anyone else out there that yearned for an actual game that felt like when you where doing something it was a task and not a pain in the ***, or gave that since of hey i accomplished that makes me quit so many games. I agree with the two. I'm old school like most of the people here are. I'm not looking for the exact same games i played before. Just one that gives that same feeling. I like some of the new things they have added to game, but the one thing i miss is the demand to be in a party. I don't want to be grouped with a bot, and don't try sell health potions. Make me make them. It seems that they did away with the death penalty and added the armor durability loss which to me isn't the same and where it fits in some game i think in most it falls short. I say bring back the Hard ways, and some things from the new games.
Join us at: https://www.maturemindedgamers.com
Demon's/Dark Souls the MMORPG....
Frankly, I could care less if the combat is 'dumbed down' or 'challenging'. When the entire game has been stripped of anything but combat, the game feels dumbed down, even when the combat is challenging.
Similarly, making the combat easier isn't going to draw in the kinds of people that will stick with an MMO, when mere quest chains and combat is all the game can offer. Where is the personalization? Where are the roleplay tools? Where is the platform for creativity?
Personally, I thought CoH was "too easy". Yet I loved that game, because the extra things there were so good, I didn't mind that the combat was too easy. To be frank, I probably wouldn't have liked CoH so much if the combat was harder, because combat--for me at least--was a means...the end was always self-expression and growth.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
I am entitled to my opinions, misspellings, and grammatical errors.