Keep in mind thata lot of difficulty in the past was - in many cases - equivalent to mindless timesink and repeting the same stuff over and over again. This had absolutely nothing to do with difficulty. "Modern" games got rid of timesinks, while doing little about difficulty.
There are/were exceptions (not without their own shortcomings, e.g. EvE, pre-f2p Tera, Neocron), but few and far between.
And what is wrong with time sinks? farming mobs, harvesting, travel and the like. i dont understand why people keep referring to time sinks as bad things.
I agree. People seem to think that time sinks meant simply more time in game. That's not necessarily true. It just means that the things you're doing in game take longer. You don't blow through content like you do now.
I agree also. Giving the example of 2 picture puzzles (exactly the same picture). One of 500, the other of 2000 pieces.
This logic of timesinks lessened would be like saying "I like doing puzzles, however I can get the 500 piece one faster. Why would I want to labor for 'x' time longer doing the other"
Question is, do I really like doing puzzles then or is it a timesink to pass the time?
Keep in mind thata lot of difficulty in the past was - in many cases - equivalent to mindless timesink and repeting the same stuff over and over again. This had absolutely nothing to do with difficulty. "Modern" games got rid of timesinks, while doing little about difficulty.
There are/were exceptions (not without their own shortcomings, e.g. EvE, pre-f2p Tera, Neocron), but few and far between.
And what is wrong with time sinks? farming mobs, harvesting, travel and the like. i dont understand why people keep referring to time sinks as bad things.
I agree. People seem to think that time sinks meant simply more time in game. That's not necessarily true. It just means that the things you're doing in game take longer. You don't blow through content like you do now.
I agree also. Giving the example of 2 picture puzzles (exactly the same picture). One of 500, the other of 2000 pieces.
This logic of timesinks lessened would be like saying "I like doing puzzles, however I can get the 500 piece one faster. Why would I want to labor for 'x' time longer doing the other"
Question is, do I really like doing puzzles then or is it a timesink to pass the time?
Now take that scenario and imagine you are doing picture puzzles in a big auditorium where other people are also doing picture puzzles, and they also have the same choice. Now add another factor, people who finish first get cookies. Now add another factor where people ridicule you for your choice of puzzle.
It complicates things a bit doesn't it. You like puzzles but you also like cookies. If you do the puzzle that takes less time you can do more easier puzzles and get more cookies. So you are having to make a choice between two things you like puzzles or cookies. People really really like cookies.
The scenario I listed is more like an MMO. If you are playing the same game solo you are not in a race, you don't have to worry about how people feel about your progress.
SWG was hard and it was good that it was so hard why? You had to work with others, a crafter had to hire combat classes to help guard him as he is gathering. Combat classes had to help that crafter so they could get gear. Doctors only gained skill by helping their fellow players and that was the same with dancers. Going out into the world was something that could kill you and yes you could lose gear made it that much more better. SWG was engaging in that it had very hard content that if you wanted to get ahead in the game you had to work with others.
And how about TOR? You have hand holding the whole time, you don't lose gear, fights are very easy, dungeons are very easy, even the pvp system is easy and doesn't offer all the things that SWG offered.
And it's safe to say what game is still being talked about and loved to this day and what one just screwed up?
MMO's need to go back to the way they used to be, the casual player is leaving to go play games on a ipad. We need a return to the old days.
Problem is that mmo's used to be a nerd thing, and now are a mainstream hobby. We wanted computer players to not be looked at like weirdos, and we got "normal people" to play videogames. And now we pay the price. Mainstreaming worthless crap to the masses just to sell a few more copies.
What's the most sold game this year? Grand Thef Auto V. The most idiotic no brainer piece of junk in the gaming history. Enough said.
My opinion is my own. I respect all other opinions and views equally, but keep in mind that my opinion will always be the best for me. That's why it's my opinion.
Keep in mind thata lot of difficulty in the past was - in many cases - equivalent to mindless timesink and repeting the same stuff over and over again. This had absolutely nothing to do with difficulty. "Modern" games got rid of timesinks, while doing little about difficulty.
There are/were exceptions (not without their own shortcomings, e.g. EvE, pre-f2p Tera, Neocron), but few and far between.
And what is wrong with time sinks? farming mobs, harvesting, travel and the like. i dont understand why people keep referring to time sinks as bad things.
I agree. People seem to think that time sinks meant simply more time in game. That's not necessarily true. It just means that the things you're doing in game take longer. You don't blow through content like you do now.
I agree also. Giving the example of 2 picture puzzles (exactly the same picture). One of 500, the other of 2000 pieces.
This logic of timesinks lessened would be like saying "I like doing puzzles, however I can get the 500 piece one faster. Why would I want to labor for 'x' time longer doing the other"
Question is, do I really like doing puzzles then or is it a timesink to pass the time?
Now take that scenario and imagine you are doing picture puzzles in a big auditorium where other people are also doing picture puzzles, and they also have the same choice. Now add another factor, people who finish first get cookies. Now add another factor where people ridicule you for your choice of puzzle.
It complicates things a bit doesn't it. You like puzzles but you also like cookies. If you do the puzzle that takes less time you can do more easier puzzles and get more cookies. So you are having to make a choice between two things you like puzzles or cookies. People really really like cookies.
The scenario I listed is more like an MMO. If you are playing the same game solo you are not in a race, you don't have to worry about how people feel about your progress.
All those factors are reliant on whether you really care what others think about you and how you play. You may, that's your cross to bear. I'll get the cookies anyway, just not right away like you would. You have your way of thinking, I have mine.
It's not complicated at all. You complicate it by adding all those hurdles you impose upon yourself with what you perceive as enjoyment of the game, not the game itself.
Success is sweet and sweeter if long delayed and gotten through many struggles and defeats. - Amos Bronson Alcott
At the end of the day the game has to be fun. Solo games usually have a save mechanism that allows you to start over with pretty much no penalty other than time. This allows them to crank up the difficulty without hurting fun too much I remember playing the old Baldur's Gate games where often just charging into battle could get you killed. Fighting some bosses required you to prepare and have a strategy, if you failed you changed up your strategy and tried again, and again and again.
When you make death penalties too severe and then couple that with content that is too difficult you run the risk of frustrating the player. Also instead of keeping the player in game, thinking, engaged and having fun you are driving people to look things up on the internet, or to have somebody carry them. Both of which are not very engaging for the player. If you want people thinking, engaging, and improving you have to balance the content such that the content is difficult without being overly punitive for failure. If you want to make death super punitive and scary, then death has to be rare, which means generally speaking content has to be easier if you want the game to have any kind of mass appeal. You can of course have a hardcore niche game that is super hard with very severe death penalties that will appeal to a very select group of people. However if you want a game to have a larger player base and be difficult, I don't think you are going to accomplish that with severe death penalties. What we have now however is an easy game with no death penalties, which also fails to engage the player but for different reasons.(mainly because you don't have to think about anything).
MMORPG's have died to me, they have become a insult to RPG games. they are FAR FAR FAR too wasy to the point where a MMORPG dosent intrest me at all or can even hold my intrest for more than a week...
Keep in mind thata lot of difficulty in the past was - in many cases - equivalent to mindless timesink and repeting the same stuff over and over again. This had absolutely nothing to do with difficulty. "Modern" games got rid of timesinks, while doing little about difficulty.
There are/were exceptions (not without their own shortcomings, e.g. EvE, pre-f2p Tera, Neocron), but few and far between.
And what is wrong with time sinks? farming mobs, harvesting, travel and the like. i dont understand why people keep referring to time sinks as bad things.
I agree. People seem to think that time sinks meant simply more time in game. That's not necessarily true. It just means that the things you're doing in game take longer. You don't blow through content like you do now.
I agree also. Giving the example of 2 picture puzzles (exactly the same picture). One of 500, the other of 2000 pieces.
This logic of timesinks lessened would be like saying "I like doing puzzles, however I can get the 500 piece one faster. Why would I want to labor for 'x' time longer doing the other"
Question is, do I really like doing puzzles then or is it a timesink to pass the time?
Now take that scenario and imagine you are doing picture puzzles in a big auditorium where other people are also doing picture puzzles, and they also have the same choice. Now add another factor, people who finish first get cookies. Now add another factor where people ridicule you for your choice of puzzle.
It complicates things a bit doesn't it. You like puzzles but you also like cookies. If you do the puzzle that takes less time you can do more easier puzzles and get more cookies. So you are having to make a choice between two things you like puzzles or cookies. People really really like cookies.
The scenario I listed is more like an MMO. If you are playing the same game solo you are not in a race, you don't have to worry about how people feel about your progress.
All those factors are reliant on whether you really care what others think about you and how you play. You may, that's your cross to bear. I'll get the cookies anyway, just not right away like you would. You have your way of thinking, I have mine.
It's not complicated at all. You complicate it by adding all those hurdles you impose upon yourself with what you perceive as enjoyment of the game, not the game itself.
Success is sweet and sweeter if long delayed and gotten through many struggles and defeats. - Amos Bronson Alcott
Note I am not saying you are wrong. Everybody has different opinions that is fine. I'm simply saying there are a variety of factors that come into making a decision, people will weight those factors differently but we seldom have decisions that are only affected by one factor. Now the other factors may be so insignificant to one person that they are irrelevant, but since people are different they will come to a different result based on how they weigh those factors, and that also doesn't make them wrong. If you want a game to appeal to a large number of people you have to consider a lot of factors.
Problem is that mmo's used to be a nerd thing, and now are a mainstream hobby. We wanted computer players to not be looked at like weirdos, and we got "normal people" to play videogames. And now we pay the price. Mainstreaming worthless crap to the masses just to sell a few more copies.
What's the most sold game this year? Grand Thef Auto V. The most idiotic no brainer piece of junk in the gaming history. Enough said.
Keep in mind those people are leaving gaming to go play games on their ipads and phones.
i mean look at the PS4 and xbone. Sony went after gamers and is selling PS4's like mad now, Microsoft tried to go after the casual and the xbone is barely selling and is a laughing stock of the community. Dev's and publishers don't get that the GTA/CoD/Halo kids are leaving and what's left are the hardcore gamers who don't like games like that.
Problem is that mmo's used to be a nerd thing, and now are a mainstream hobby. We wanted computer players to not be looked at like weirdos, and we got "normal people" to play videogames. And now we pay the price. Mainstreaming worthless crap to the masses just to sell a few more copies.
What's the most sold game this year? Grand Thef Auto V. The most idiotic no brainer piece of junk in the gaming history. Enough said.
Keep in mind those people are leaving gaming to go play games on their ipads and phones.
i mean look at the PS4 and xbone. Sony went after gamers and is selling PS4's like mad now, Microsoft tried to go after the casual and the xbone is barely selling and is a laughing stock of the community. Dev's and publishers don't get that the GTA/CoD/Halo kids are leaving and what's left are the hardcore gamers who don't like games like that.
Technically nobody is selling, they are reserving. I did find the role reversal this time around interesting though, it seems strange that Microsoft would make the same mistakes Sony made with the PS3, however I can understand Sony's change of strategy. Still the battle hasn't even started yet so it's a bit early to declare a winner. Hardcore gamers will never be a big segment, and developers know this because they do a shit ton of market research on it, no console will win if they focus solely on the hardcore, if they want to win they need to address a very broad range of players.
Note I am not saying you are wrong. Everybody has different opinions that is fine. I'm simply saying there are a variety of factors that come into making a decision, people will weight those factors differently but we seldom have decisions that are only affected by one factor. Now the other factors may be so insignificant to one person that they are irrelevant, but since people are different they will come to a different result based on how they weigh those factors, and that also doesn't make them wrong. If you want a game to appeal to a large number of people you have to consider a lot of factors.
I understand, and I see your point. No one is right or wrong here. My analogy for the puzzle is as simple as it gets and doesn't rely on what is the trend in Mmo's today or whether it is F2P or B2P. Or whether it is PvP oriented or PvE.
That is a discussion for what kind of Mmo I'd make if I could for myself.
I answered 'Yes' to the question "Have MMOs Become Too Easy?" Does it have to be 'Old School'? Not necessarily, but everything given too quickly and reaching max lvl in a couple of weeks, if not days, can not really be good for the genre if you want retention of players. They'll get bored quick and leave to try something else.
If you have alot to do at endgame, and not grinding dungeons, gear or faction then you may have something. What's the real difference between grinding time away in endgame for gear or gold and grinding for levels and getting same gold and gear as you get there, if the time frame is identical?
Again, not implying right or wrong, just my perspective.
Note I am not saying you are wrong. Everybody has different opinions that is fine. I'm simply saying there are a variety of factors that come into making a decision, people will weight those factors differently but we seldom have decisions that are only affected by one factor. Now the other factors may be so insignificant to one person that they are irrelevant, but since people are different they will come to a different result based on how they weigh those factors, and that also doesn't make them wrong. If you want a game to appeal to a large number of people you have to consider a lot of factors.
I understand, and I see your point. No one is right or wrong here. My analogy for the puzzle is as simple as it gets and doesn't rely on what is the trend in Mmo's today or whether it is F2P or B2P. Or whether it is PvP oriented or PvE.
That is a discussion for what kind of Mmo I'd make if I could for myself.
I answered 'Yes' to the question "Have MMOs Become Too Easy?" Does it have to be 'Old School'? Not necessarily, but everything given too quickly and reaching max lvl in a couple of weeks, if not days, can not really be good for the genre if you want retention of players. They'll get bored quick and leave to try something else.
If you have alot to do at endgame, and not grinding dungeons, gear or faction then you may have something. What's the real difference between grinding time away in endgame for gear or gold and grinding for levels and getting same gold and gear as you get there, if the time frame is identical?
Again, not implying right or wrong, just my perspective.
Actually I agree. They have become too easy. And easy content doesn't engage the player because they don't have to think. I think content needs to be more difficult, however they have to do it in a way that engages the player not pushes them out of the game. What you see now is various forms of mindless zombie treadmills designed to keep you busy with repetitive tasks by dangling a carrot in front of people. I don't think that is good for the health of the game. It is fine if the content is fun and engaging but simple repetition for rewards without engaging players is a recipe for burnout. I think severe death penalties work against that though, instead of engaging the player you are frustrating them. If you make it hard without making it overly punitive for failure I think you find that players are more willing to fail and learn from their mistakes and try again, and that pushes player improvement and the satisfaction to the player that comes with it.
The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few. (why we have so many simple mmos to level cap and to advance in the hamster wheel).
We are also in a different generation of gamers than a decade ago. Technology has changed and we are now in a market of players that want instant gratification in their games so they can move onto the next one.
My personal history of gaming..
Took me close to 1 year to get my Spear of Fate for my Shaman in EQ -I still remember the hell levels in eq and where I needed guildmates back then to help me complete my epic-
Took me 1 year to unlock Jedi on Star Wars Galaxies (precu) - 28 professions with ranger profession unlocking Jedi (talk about having no luck)
Took me 8 months to level cap in Anarchy Online back in 2002.
Back then I had all the time in the world to play mmo games, especially after a relationship breakup or even school recess in college. But even back then, games were long winded and tough!
The gamers today got it way easy and less of a challenge to achieve greatness in the game. We had no arrows pointing in the right direction, we text chat even on raids, roger wilco was as close as you could get to vent, mumble or teamspeak voice communication.
Do I miss them days, I sure do. Unfortunately time has changed as well as its gamers.
Games are always going to feel too easy for gamers who have been gamers since the 90's. Nowadays, developers are all about "accessibility". It's the price of video games becoming more popular in mainstream media. Something that is both good and bad for gamers.
U have to make it easy at some lvl because of the design that mmo"s have had forever. I am talking about aiming and the lack of dodge. u can't even kite or the mob resets. so you just stand and mash buttons. Who thought that would give a lasting feeling of reward?
So you must change the game. That is for sure. But hard and not hard are less of the issue imo. Mastering something more than tab targeting is what we really want. And more choice than magic type fantasy would not hurt either.
Maybe Fire Fall with more content and things or a sci-fi only Terra. But money is were the investment follows. It is not innovation that flourishes.
Save for SC and chris roberts which now has 23 mil in crowd funding. See we don't all want fantasy do we.
Actually I agree. They have become too easy. And easy content doesn't engage the player because they don't have to think. I think content needs to be more difficult, however they have to do it in a way that engages the player not pushes them out of the game. What you see now is various forms of mindless zombie treadmills designed to keep you busy with repetitive tasks by dangling a carrot in front of people. I don't think that is good for the health of the game. It is fine if the content is fun and engaging but simple repetition for rewards without engaging players is a recipe for burnout. I think severe death penalties work against that though, instead of engaging the player you are frustrating them. If you make it hard without making it overly punitive for failure I think you find that players are more willing to fail and learn from their mistakes and try again, and that pushes player improvement and the satisfaction to the player that comes with it.
Harsh death penalties will drive some away to be sure. I personally don't think that's where the change is needed.
Like you said, content needs to be engaging. Treadmills are ok I guess for those that like them, but not make your game built around the need for them at endgame making the journey there worthless, necessity/chore and taking the time it takes to bake a cake.
I know the difficulty in pleasing everyone, is just not possible. Maybe as time goes on and Mmos keep turning out like the latest themeparks someone will change it up with more content DURING the trip to level cap and maybe it'll catch on. Who's to say?!
Actually I agree. They have become too easy. And easy content doesn't engage the player because they don't have to think. I think content needs to be more difficult, however they have to do it in a way that engages the player not pushes them out of the game. What you see now is various forms of mindless zombie treadmills designed to keep you busy with repetitive tasks by dangling a carrot in front of people. I don't think that is good for the health of the game. It is fine if the content is fun and engaging but simple repetition for rewards without engaging players is a recipe for burnout. I think severe death penalties work against that though, instead of engaging the player you are frustrating them. If you make it hard without making it overly punitive for failure I think you find that players are more willing to fail and learn from their mistakes and try again, and that pushes player improvement and the satisfaction to the player that comes with it.
Harsh death penalties will drive some away to be sure. I personally don't think that's where the change is needed.
Like you said, content needs to be engaging. Treadmills are ok I guess for those that like them, but not make your game built around the need for them at endgame making the journey there worthless, necessity/chore and taking the time it takes to bake a cake.
I know the difficulty in pleasing everyone, is just not possible. Maybe as time goes on and Mmos keep turning out like the latest themeparks someone will change it up with more content DURING the trip to level cap and maybe it'll catch on. Who's to say?!
Why do people care about driving people away? How about disaggregate a bit? Stop trying to get everybody under one tent.
Harsh death penalties will drive some away to be sure. I personally don't think that's where the change is needed.
Like you said, content needs to be engaging. Treadmills are ok I guess for those that like them, but not make your game built around the need for them at endgame making the journey there worthless, necessity/chore and taking the time it takes to bake a cake.
I know the difficulty in pleasing everyone, is just not possible. Maybe as time goes on and Mmos keep turning out like the latest themeparks someone will change it up with more content DURING the trip to level cap and maybe it'll catch on. Who's to say?!
Why do people care about driving people away? How about disaggregate a bit? Stop trying to get everybody under one tent.
I'm not trying to do anything, I was agreeing with death penalties not being the answer to making more engaging Mmo's, for me. I simply dislike the way Mmo's are today, too easy but it shouldn't mean that making harsher death penalties is the way to go.
Comments
Is this even a question?
The answer is YES...
Not even to the extents of Ultima Online and EQ1's old days as far as comparisons, just gets progressively easier and easier with each one..
Based on Bill's attitude towards what "Skill" means, I would imagine he's never won a chess match and struggles to handle the rules for checkers.
I agree also. Giving the example of 2 picture puzzles (exactly the same picture). One of 500, the other of 2000 pieces.
This logic of timesinks lessened would be like saying "I like doing puzzles, however I can get the 500 piece one faster. Why would I want to labor for 'x' time longer doing the other"
Question is, do I really like doing puzzles then or is it a timesink to pass the time?
Now take that scenario and imagine you are doing picture puzzles in a big auditorium where other people are also doing picture puzzles, and they also have the same choice. Now add another factor, people who finish first get cookies. Now add another factor where people ridicule you for your choice of puzzle.
It complicates things a bit doesn't it. You like puzzles but you also like cookies. If you do the puzzle that takes less time you can do more easier puzzles and get more cookies. So you are having to make a choice between two things you like puzzles or cookies. People really really like cookies.
The scenario I listed is more like an MMO. If you are playing the same game solo you are not in a race, you don't have to worry about how people feel about your progress.
yes and lets look at two games SWG and TOR.
SWG was hard and it was good that it was so hard why? You had to work with others, a crafter had to hire combat classes to help guard him as he is gathering. Combat classes had to help that crafter so they could get gear. Doctors only gained skill by helping their fellow players and that was the same with dancers. Going out into the world was something that could kill you and yes you could lose gear made it that much more better. SWG was engaging in that it had very hard content that if you wanted to get ahead in the game you had to work with others.
And how about TOR? You have hand holding the whole time, you don't lose gear, fights are very easy, dungeons are very easy, even the pvp system is easy and doesn't offer all the things that SWG offered.
And it's safe to say what game is still being talked about and loved to this day and what one just screwed up?
MMO's need to go back to the way they used to be, the casual player is leaving to go play games on a ipad. We need a return to the old days.
Problem is that mmo's used to be a nerd thing, and now are a mainstream hobby. We wanted computer players to not be looked at like weirdos, and we got "normal people" to play videogames. And now we pay the price. Mainstreaming worthless crap to the masses just to sell a few more copies.
What's the most sold game this year? Grand Thef Auto V. The most idiotic no brainer piece of junk in the gaming history. Enough said.
My opinion is my own. I respect all other opinions and views equally, but keep in mind that my opinion will always be the best for me. That's why it's my opinion.
All those factors are reliant on whether you really care what others think about you and how you play. You may, that's your cross to bear. I'll get the cookies anyway, just not right away like you would. You have your way of thinking, I have mine.
It's not complicated at all. You complicate it by adding all those hurdles you impose upon yourself with what you perceive as enjoyment of the game, not the game itself.
- Amos Bronson Alcott
Go to hell!
At the end of the day the game has to be fun. Solo games usually have a save mechanism that allows you to start over with pretty much no penalty other than time. This allows them to crank up the difficulty without hurting fun too much I remember playing the old Baldur's Gate games where often just charging into battle could get you killed. Fighting some bosses required you to prepare and have a strategy, if you failed you changed up your strategy and tried again, and again and again.
When you make death penalties too severe and then couple that with content that is too difficult you run the risk of frustrating the player. Also instead of keeping the player in game, thinking, engaged and having fun you are driving people to look things up on the internet, or to have somebody carry them. Both of which are not very engaging for the player. If you want people thinking, engaging, and improving you have to balance the content such that the content is difficult without being overly punitive for failure. If you want to make death super punitive and scary, then death has to be rare, which means generally speaking content has to be easier if you want the game to have any kind of mass appeal. You can of course have a hardcore niche game that is super hard with very severe death penalties that will appeal to a very select group of people. However if you want a game to have a larger player base and be difficult, I don't think you are going to accomplish that with severe death penalties. What we have now however is an easy game with no death penalties, which also fails to engage the player but for different reasons.(mainly because you don't have to think about anything).
Note I am not saying you are wrong. Everybody has different opinions that is fine. I'm simply saying there are a variety of factors that come into making a decision, people will weight those factors differently but we seldom have decisions that are only affected by one factor. Now the other factors may be so insignificant to one person that they are irrelevant, but since people are different they will come to a different result based on how they weigh those factors, and that also doesn't make them wrong. If you want a game to appeal to a large number of people you have to consider a lot of factors.
Keep in mind those people are leaving gaming to go play games on their ipads and phones.
i mean look at the PS4 and xbone. Sony went after gamers and is selling PS4's like mad now, Microsoft tried to go after the casual and the xbone is barely selling and is a laughing stock of the community. Dev's and publishers don't get that the GTA/CoD/Halo kids are leaving and what's left are the hardcore gamers who don't like games like that.
Technically nobody is selling, they are reserving. I did find the role reversal this time around interesting though, it seems strange that Microsoft would make the same mistakes Sony made with the PS3, however I can understand Sony's change of strategy. Still the battle hasn't even started yet so it's a bit early to declare a winner. Hardcore gamers will never be a big segment, and developers know this because they do a shit ton of market research on it, no console will win if they focus solely on the hardcore, if they want to win they need to address a very broad range of players.
I understand, and I see your point. No one is right or wrong here. My analogy for the puzzle is as simple as it gets and doesn't rely on what is the trend in Mmo's today or whether it is F2P or B2P. Or whether it is PvP oriented or PvE.
That is a discussion for what kind of Mmo I'd make if I could for myself.
I answered 'Yes' to the question "Have MMOs Become Too Easy?" Does it have to be 'Old School'? Not necessarily, but everything given too quickly and reaching max lvl in a couple of weeks, if not days, can not really be good for the genre if you want retention of players. They'll get bored quick and leave to try something else.
If you have alot to do at endgame, and not grinding dungeons, gear or faction then you may have something. What's the real difference between grinding time away in endgame for gear or gold and grinding for levels and getting same gold and gear as you get there, if the time frame is identical?
Again, not implying right or wrong, just my perspective.
Now Playing: DARKFALL Unholy Wars "Return to Open World, Full Loot PvP, Conquest in a Sandbox MMO with player driven economy! Just like classic MMOs!"
Actually I agree. They have become too easy. And easy content doesn't engage the player because they don't have to think. I think content needs to be more difficult, however they have to do it in a way that engages the player not pushes them out of the game. What you see now is various forms of mindless zombie treadmills designed to keep you busy with repetitive tasks by dangling a carrot in front of people. I don't think that is good for the health of the game. It is fine if the content is fun and engaging but simple repetition for rewards without engaging players is a recipe for burnout. I think severe death penalties work against that though, instead of engaging the player you are frustrating them. If you make it hard without making it overly punitive for failure I think you find that players are more willing to fail and learn from their mistakes and try again, and that pushes player improvement and the satisfaction to the player that comes with it.
To quote Spocks logic..
The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few. (why we have so many simple mmos to level cap and to advance in the hamster wheel).
We are also in a different generation of gamers than a decade ago. Technology has changed and we are now in a market of players that want instant gratification in their games so they can move onto the next one.
My personal history of gaming..
Took me close to 1 year to get my Spear of Fate for my Shaman in EQ -I still remember the hell levels in eq and where I needed guildmates back then to help me complete my epic-
Took me 1 year to unlock Jedi on Star Wars Galaxies (precu) - 28 professions with ranger profession unlocking Jedi (talk about having no luck)
Took me 8 months to level cap in Anarchy Online back in 2002.
Back then I had all the time in the world to play mmo games, especially after a relationship breakup or even school recess in college. But even back then, games were long winded and tough!
The gamers today got it way easy and less of a challenge to achieve greatness in the game. We had no arrows pointing in the right direction, we text chat even on raids, roger wilco was as close as you could get to vent, mumble or teamspeak voice communication.
Do I miss them days, I sure do. Unfortunately time has changed as well as its gamers.
U have to make it easy at some lvl because of the design that mmo"s have had forever. I am talking about aiming and the lack of dodge. u can't even kite or the mob resets. so you just stand and mash buttons. Who thought that would give a lasting feeling of reward?
So you must change the game. That is for sure. But hard and not hard are less of the issue imo. Mastering something more than tab targeting is what we really want. And more choice than magic type fantasy would not hurt either.
Maybe Fire Fall with more content and things or a sci-fi only Terra. But money is were the investment follows. It is not innovation that flourishes.
Save for SC and chris roberts which now has 23 mil in crowd funding. See we don't all want fantasy do we.
Hard or not just make something interesting.
Harsh death penalties will drive some away to be sure. I personally don't think that's where the change is needed.
Like you said, content needs to be engaging. Treadmills are ok I guess for those that like them, but not make your game built around the need for them at endgame making the journey there worthless, necessity/chore and taking the time it takes to bake a cake.
I know the difficulty in pleasing everyone, is just not possible. Maybe as time goes on and Mmos keep turning out like the latest themeparks someone will change it up with more content DURING the trip to level cap and maybe it'll catch on. Who's to say?!
Why do people care about driving people away? How about disaggregate a bit? Stop trying to get everybody under one tent.
I'm not trying to do anything, I was agreeing with death penalties not being the answer to making more engaging Mmo's, for me. I simply dislike the way Mmo's are today, too easy but it shouldn't mean that making harsher death penalties is the way to go.
Hope that clarifies things.