I think Chris nails my personal beliefs in point # 3 and 4. Everyone can do everything and everyone can get the best armor/weapons for their respective class, with little to no trouble.
Remember Epic weapon quests in EQ? That is what is missing from games today. A real holy-shit-what-a-pain-in-the-ass-quest-this-is-but-I-have-this-amazing-sense-of-accomplishment-now type of quest. Everything seems so dumbed down and easy that after the initial 30 to 60 days, the game is essentially over because you already have all your best gear.
Keep in mind thata lot of difficulty in the past was - in many cases - equivalent to mindless timesink and repeting the same stuff over and over again. This had absolutely nothing to do with difficulty. "Modern" games got rid of timesinks, while doing little about difficulty.
There are/were exceptions (not without their own shortcomings, e.g. EvE, pre-f2p Tera, Neocron), but few and far between.
And what is wrong with time sinks? farming mobs, harvesting, travel and the like. i dont understand why people keep referring to time sinks as bad things.
I agree. People seem to think that time sinks meant simply more time in game. That's not necessarily true. It just means that the things you're doing in game take longer. You don't blow through content like you do now.
I agree also. Giving the example of 2 picture puzzles (exactly the same picture). One of 500, the other of 2000 pieces.
This logic of timesinks lessened would be like saying "I like doing puzzles, however I can get the 500 piece one faster. Why would I want to labor for 'x' time longer doing the other"
Question is, do I really like doing puzzles then or is it a timesink to pass the time?
Now take that scenario and imagine you are doing picture puzzles in a big auditorium where other people are also doing picture puzzles, and they also have the same choice. Now add another factor, people who finish first get cookies. Now add another factor where people ridicule you for your choice of puzzle.
It complicates things a bit doesn't it. You like puzzles but you also like cookies. If you do the puzzle that takes less time you can do more easier puzzles and get more cookies. So you are having to make a choice between two things you like puzzles or cookies. People really really like cookies.
The scenario I listed is more like an MMO. If you are playing the same game solo you are not in a race, you don't have to worry about how people feel about your progress.
Heres another thought. You can just to the puzzle because you like doin the puzzle. Everyone needs a reward for doin things these days. If you like cooking then go buy some damn cookies. Don't do something you could care less about because cookies are the reward. And why are you in a race to complete a puzzle?
This is one of the bigger problems with MMOs today. Things need to be attached to everything. prizes need to be awarded for everything. Even walking into a new zone rewards you with exp. Just do the puzzle because you like to do them. that is the reward. Not the damn cookie.
Google "Skinners Box" when you have some free time. They have been grooming us on this system since the early days of MMO's.
I think Chris nails my personal beliefs in point # 3 and 4. Everyone can do everything and everyone can get the best armor/weapons for their respective class, with little to no trouble.
Remember Epic weapon quests in EQ? That is what is missing from games today. A real holy-shit-what-a-pain-in-the-ass-quest-this-is-but-I-have-this-amazing-sense-of-accomplishment-now type of quest. Everything seems so dumbed down and easy that after the initial 30 to 60 days, the game is essentially over because you already have all your best gear.
This is what I was getting at in my prior post. Everything is handed to you, on a silver platter.
-The only sure thing about the future is uncertainty
"so it’s time this industry re-targets actual MMO players instead of potential ones."
I had to reply for this one sentence because it really is the main reason most MMOs are disappointing, especially after the first couple months when the sheen wears off. For some reason the MMO developers are terrified of building a game that assumes you've already played one. Why? After 10 years of them I'm ready for a challenge. There are millions of gamers that have years logged into MMOs. Make a game for us please someone.
imo, what's needed in the morg genre is more immersion and more of the game forcing players to interact and work together. It does not have to be insanely difficult, more along the lines of each aspect of the game require player interaction, then you'll have people that keep playing the game. As soon as there is no reason for people to interact in meaningful and sustatined ways, or for whatever reason they don't interact at all they start bailing out because the game loses its allure.
cheers for a game that tries to emmulate star wars galaxies (PRE NGE)
I want to feel like I've accomplished something. The only way to do this is make it difficult. Give me a challenge. Also...not just higher health points on mobs.
Originally posted by Rayshe I think that its less about them being made easy and more that we have gotten so much practice at these games that we have become good at them. the rule is simple, 10,000 hours of anything and you will become good at it. Now how many people on MMORPG.com feel that they have played 10,000 hours of mmo's combined. i mean i know damn well im in the catagory.
Haha, so false. If people would zerg through dungeons in the original WoW AOEing everything, no CC, no coordination, they would die. If people would try to kill 3 monsters at once in the original game when questing they would die. The game has become easier, it doesn't just seem easier they purposely dumbed it down. Monsters do not even assist when someone crowd controls in a dungeon any longer? I guess that doesn't matter since monsters are so easy they don't need to be CCd. What the ...! Just stupid. I quit WoW because of the zergfest no challenge crap ...
Wow has made it easy yes, hell mobs that used to be flagged group are now soloable easy, seeing players at 90 with 934k self buffed is just silly.
Just finished my bst epic 1.0 in Everquest, at 61 with heal merc(damn op) it was fairly easy but still took a while, in wow you barely get the gear on before you find better.
Absolutely ridiculously easy,everyone should have played vanilla FFXI to know the TRUE meaning of a role playing game,not some linear treadmill of yellow markers and arrows or sparklies to follow around.ZERO hand holding just as a true role playing experience should be.
Every single one of these games have been designed as single player games adding in co op dungeon finders and the internet.
There is no excuse for tools that are not role playing experiences,either you are looking for a rpg or you are not,it should have nothing to do with not having time to play or MY play STYLE,it is rpg or not.
You watch any good Fantasy movie,the main character is not running around super fast because of time restrictions,they are wandering the lands meeting people,talking to people,learning the lore of the land.
Quests should NOT make you a more experienced Warrior or Mage,those should be ways to gain fame with that npc player,just like doing someone a favor in real life.Example if i was an auto mechanic i wouldn't do a friend a favor then all of a sudden i gain experience as an auto mechanic,it is just dumb.It COULD make me a better mechanic if for example i was learning to work on a car i never worked on before but games are not developed in that mannerism.
Developers do this because they know a lot of players like hand holding and want to feel like they are progressing,so they give them a path to follow and make it easy to get xp.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Tldr: yes, games are way to easy. They need games with Vanguard's style and finesse that use new technology. They need games like Star wars galaxies using new technology, and they need games like Final Fantasy 11 online as well as original non-nerfed Everquest 1.
It is fun and awesome to have games like WoW for the casual crowd, but we need to have more difficulty challenging modes, outland solo questing is lame, they should have never taken out all of the group oriented elite mob quest encounters, they should have almost all of outland content as group encounters like in original vanilla EQ1/2 and WoW.
I enjoyed questing more when there was a challenge, now I never do any of my solo quests at all, and the dungeon finder makes it way to easy and quick to level.
We need more group oriented quests, the quests in the dungeon finder are a joke, they need more complicated complex quests that force players to explore and slow down, achievements for speed should be taken out, and they should punish players for skipping out on exploration and rushing through a dungeon. We need rewarding achievements for actually completing 100% of content instead of rushing power level through it.
Getting rid of quests giving exp would not solve anything, dungeons are rush zerg fests of dead complete silence. All that does is force players to all dungeon for exp? So, even more zerg speed run clears? However, the easy quests need to be replaced with harder and more complicated worthwhile quests, and you need to have more in - depth Alternate Achievement Point/Talent point trees. You should be a unique customized character, there should be tons of character hairstyles and tatoos etc decorations, you should be totally unique and have thousands of Talent/AA to choose from, with the ability for no one to be a copy cat clone cutter cookie character. No one's gear should all be the same, people should have unique legendary epic weapons and armor tailored to them and their unique choices of evil neutral good class racial stat selection, etc.
The MMO developers are selling out themselves, their own potential meassured in their creative act is being neglected in order to increase productivity. Truely fascinating and beautiful things are created not only with your hands and mind but also with your heart.
Comments
I think Chris nails my personal beliefs in point # 3 and 4. Everyone can do everything and everyone can get the best armor/weapons for their respective class, with little to no trouble.
Remember Epic weapon quests in EQ? That is what is missing from games today. A real holy-shit-what-a-pain-in-the-ass-quest-this-is-but-I-have-this-amazing-sense-of-accomplishment-now type of quest. Everything seems so dumbed down and easy that after the initial 30 to 60 days, the game is essentially over because you already have all your best gear.
Google "Skinners Box" when you have some free time. They have been grooming us on this system since the early days of MMO's.
There is no more things to say :
Y E S
This is what I was getting at in my prior post. Everything is handed to you, on a silver platter.
-The only sure thing about the future is uncertainty
"so it’s time this industry re-targets actual MMO players instead of potential ones."
I had to reply for this one sentence because it really is the main reason most MMOs are disappointing, especially after the first couple months when the sheen wears off. For some reason the MMO developers are terrified of building a game that assumes you've already played one. Why? After 10 years of them I'm ready for a challenge. There are millions of gamers that have years logged into MMOs. Make a game for us please someone.
imo, what's needed in the morg genre is more immersion and more of the game forcing players to interact and work together. It does not have to be insanely difficult, more along the lines of each aspect of the game require player interaction, then you'll have people that keep playing the game. As soon as there is no reason for people to interact in meaningful and sustatined ways, or for whatever reason they don't interact at all they start bailing out because the game loses its allure.
cheers for a game that tries to emmulate star wars galaxies
(PRE NGE)
Haha, so false. If people would zerg through dungeons in the original WoW AOEing everything, no CC, no coordination, they would die. If people would try to kill 3 monsters at once in the original game when questing they would die. The game has become easier, it doesn't just seem easier they purposely dumbed it down. Monsters do not even assist when someone crowd controls in a dungeon any longer? I guess that doesn't matter since monsters are so easy they don't need to be CCd. What the ...! Just stupid. I quit WoW because of the zergfest no challenge crap ...
Absolutely ridiculously easy,everyone should have played vanilla FFXI to know the TRUE meaning of a role playing game,not some linear treadmill of yellow markers and arrows or sparklies to follow around.ZERO hand holding just as a true role playing experience should be.
Every single one of these games have been designed as single player games adding in co op dungeon finders and the internet.
There is no excuse for tools that are not role playing experiences,either you are looking for a rpg or you are not,it should have nothing to do with not having time to play or MY play STYLE,it is rpg or not.
You watch any good Fantasy movie,the main character is not running around super fast because of time restrictions,they are wandering the lands meeting people,talking to people,learning the lore of the land.
Quests should NOT make you a more experienced Warrior or Mage,those should be ways to gain fame with that npc player,just like doing someone a favor in real life.Example if i was an auto mechanic i wouldn't do a friend a favor then all of a sudden i gain experience as an auto mechanic,it is just dumb.It COULD make me a better mechanic if for example i was learning to work on a car i never worked on before but games are not developed in that mannerism.
Developers do this because they know a lot of players like hand holding and want to feel like they are progressing,so they give them a path to follow and make it easy to get xp.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Tldr: yes, games are way to easy. They need games with Vanguard's style and finesse that use new technology. They need games like Star wars galaxies using new technology, and they need games like Final Fantasy 11 online as well as original non-nerfed Everquest 1.
It is fun and awesome to have games like WoW for the casual crowd, but we need to have more difficulty challenging modes, outland solo questing is lame, they should have never taken out all of the group oriented elite mob quest encounters, they should have almost all of outland content as group encounters like in original vanilla EQ1/2 and WoW.
I enjoyed questing more when there was a challenge, now I never do any of my solo quests at all, and the dungeon finder makes it way to easy and quick to level.
We need more group oriented quests, the quests in the dungeon finder are a joke, they need more complicated complex quests that force players to explore and slow down, achievements for speed should be taken out, and they should punish players for skipping out on exploration and rushing through a dungeon. We need rewarding achievements for actually completing 100% of content instead of rushing power level through it.
Getting rid of quests giving exp would not solve anything, dungeons are rush zerg fests of dead complete silence. All that does is force players to all dungeon for exp? So, even more zerg speed run clears? However, the easy quests need to be replaced with harder and more complicated worthwhile quests, and you need to have more in - depth Alternate Achievement Point/Talent point trees. You should be a unique customized character, there should be tons of character hairstyles and tatoos etc decorations, you should be totally unique and have thousands of Talent/AA to choose from, with the ability for no one to be a copy cat clone cutter cookie character. No one's gear should all be the same, people should have unique legendary epic weapons and armor tailored to them and their unique choices of evil neutral good class racial stat selection, etc.
most mmo's leveling mechanics are targetted at being solo friendly
- that alone accounts for an easy / casual nature
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