And you think there's a large volume of players willing to sacrifice their characters permanently to griefers?
Sure thing. Let us know how that turns out.
ok I'm calling you out on the carpet.
You show me where I said there was a "large volume of players ...".
Or perhaps there are just "Players who are willing'? Especially as we know that there are players who like/want these games.
go ahead. You said it. Now explain yourself.
You didn't say that, I did. Not sure about your carpet reference.
So, just how many people do you assume will be willing to pay for that kind of permanent abuse? Please to explain who is going to pay for that. How many paying customers do you assume will simply shrug off a permanent end to their hard work, reroll, and set out for another round of abuse.
Have fun with that.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
This sounds somewhat similar to the UO modal which I liked very much. I don't think this will appeal to the masses of today tho but it might appeal more to the niche that this game is trying to cover.
Do a naughty like attack a blue (innocent person), steal something and be seen, loot from a corpse that you did not kill, ect ... and you get flagged grey and are attackable by anyone, anywhere, any time (in town NPC guards pwn you near instantly) for like 10 mins or whatever it was.
Kill a blue and you get a set number of hours added to your character that has to be worked off, if the # of hours exceeds some limit then you turn red which means you are attackable by anyone, anywhere, anytime until you work off those hours. Reds can not enter towns or the NPC guards will wtfpwn them near instantly and with their red name there is no question of their intentions. If you died as a red there was a big concequence in doing so ... you would loose a few points in your highest skill or skills forcing you to have to retrain those back up to 100. Which in UO going from 95-100 in most cases took a considerable amount of time even macroing.
This puts justice in the hands of the players, this does not stop griefing by the game itself and does provide a higher level of safety in numbers.
This sounds somewhat similar to the UO modal which I liked very much. I don't think this will appeal to the masses of today tho but it might appeal more to the niche that this game is trying to cover.
Do a naughty like attack a blue (innocent person), steal something and be seen, loot from a corpse that you did not kill, ect ... and you get flagged grey and are attackable by anyone, anywhere, any time (in town NPC guards pwn you near instantly) for like 10 mins or whatever it was.
Kill a blue and you get a set number of hours added to your character that has to be worked off, if the # of hours exceeds some limit then you turn red which means you are attackable by anyone, anywhere, anytime until you work off those hours. Reds can not enter towns or the NPC guards will wtfpwn them near instantly and with their red name there is no question of their intentions. If you died as a red there was a big concequence in doing so ... you would loose a few points in your highest skill or skills forcing you to have to retrain those back up to 100. Which in UO going from 95-100 in most cases took a considerable amount of time even macroing.
This puts justice in the hands of the players, this does not stop griefing by the game itself and does provide a higher level of safety in numbers.
this. Not in all details, but we're on the same wave.
I've yet to see or hear experiences from any mates that an alignment system worked. That doesn't mean that one can't work, or hasn't worked ... but I've not experienced it personally or via retelling. As such I'm going to assume the system will work as have all the alignment systems and un-regulated open pvp titles I have played : Gank group roams around griefing, instantly runs when death is a possibility. There will always be ways to bend the rules and penalties of pvp systems based on such limp systems. I hope the developers are able to prove this trend wrong, but I suspect it will devolve into the same open pvp absurdity which curves these such titles into niche abscurity.
And you think there's a large volume of players willing to sacrifice their characters permanently to griefers?
Sure thing. Let us know how that turns out.
ok I'm calling you out on the carpet.
You show me where I said there was a "large volume of players ...".
Or perhaps there are just "Players who are willing'? Especially as we know that there are players who like/want these games.
go ahead. You said it. Now explain yourself.
You didn't say that, I did. Not sure about your carpet reference.
So, just how many people do you assume will be willing to pay for that kind of permanent abuse? Please to explain who is going to pay for that. How many paying customers do you assume will simply shrug off a permanent end to their hard work, reroll, and set out for another round of abuse.
Have fun with that.
The problem with your post is that you are arguing purely from your emotions and your disdain for the system.
1, just how many people do you assume will be willing to pay for that kind of permanent abuse?
It's not abuse if you find such play fun. Is Dark Souls abuse? How about we go broader, Is tackle football abuse? How about dodge ball or boxing? The thing is, the people who want to play it find it fun. So it's not really "abuse" in the way you want it to be. What matters is that "enough" players are willing to play this game to make it financially viable (whatever that definition is to this development group) and that they can continually grow the game in a meaningful way.
2, How many paying customers do you assume will simply shrug off a permanent end to their hard work, reroll, and set out for another round of abuse.
None that would have your issues with the game. Why? Because they won't be playing the game.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
So, just how many people do you assume will be willing to pay for that kind of permanent abuse? Please to explain who is going to pay for that. How many paying customers do you assume will simply shrug off a permanent end to their hard work, reroll, and set out for another round of abuse.
Have fun with that.
The problem with your post is that you are arguing purely from your emotions and your disdain for the system.
You sure about that? I could just turn that statement around on you but what's the point?
1, just how many people do you assume will be willing to pay for that kind of permanent abuse?
It's not abuse if you find such play fun. Is Dark Souls abuse? How about we go broader, Is tackle football abuse? How about dodge ball or boxing? The thing is, the people who want to play it find it fun. So it's not really "abuse" in the way you want it to be. What matters is that "enough" players are willing to play this game to make it financially viable (whatever that definition is to this development group) and that they can continually grow the game in a meaningful way.
People don't die in dodge ball and very rarely football. You don't have griefers from the stands running on the field executing people. If they did, how many do you think would be playing. Put the straws back.
2, How many paying customers do you assume will simply shrug off a permanent end to their hard work, reroll, and set out for another round of abuse.
None that would have your issues with the game. Why? Because they won't be playing the game.
That's exactly my point. Thanks.
Look, I'm not going to continue with this dead horse. When the game comes out the game will either explode with enthusiasm or die a painful death. I know what I think will happen and so do you.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
So, just how many people do you assume will be willing to pay for that kind of permanent abuse? Please to explain who is going to pay for that. How many paying customers do you assume will simply shrug off a permanent end to their hard work, reroll, and set out for another round of abuse.
Have fun with that.
The problem with your post is that you are arguing purely from your emotions and your disdain for the system.
You sure about that? I could just turn that statement around on you but what's the point?
1, just how many people do you assume will be willing to pay for that kind of permanent abuse?
It's not abuse if you find such play fun. Is Dark Souls abuse? How about we go broader, Is tackle football abuse? How about dodge ball or boxing? The thing is, the people who want to play it find it fun. So it's not really "abuse" in the way you want it to be. What matters is that "enough" players are willing to play this game to make it financially viable (whatever that definition is to this development group) and that they can continually grow the game in a meaningful way.
People don't die in dodge ball and very rarely football. You don't have griefers from the stands running on the field executing people. If they did, how many do you think would be playing. Put the straws back.
2, How many paying customers do you assume will simply shrug off a permanent end to their hard work, reroll, and set out for another round of abuse.
None that would have your issues with the game. Why? Because they won't be playing the game.
That's exactly my point. Thanks.
Look, I'm not going to continue with this dead horse. When the game comes out the game will either explode with enthusiasm or die a painful death. I know what I think will happen and so do you.
I'm more shocked that you think people actually die in a video game.
That's exactly my point. Thanks.
Then why are you arguing and worrying about being abused and griefed? you dont' have a point it just makes you uncomfortable because you are projecting. You can't be abused and griefed if you are on board with the rules. If you aren't then you aren't playing. If you are playing then you are on board with the rules. This is the most difficult thing for some people to get.
In any case this game will not fail on its permadeath nor on open world pvp. If it fails it will fail because the devs just don't have the resources or experience to pull it off like a few other infamous pvp games that have been released.
In any case I wish them luck.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I've played Mortal Online for a while and i have to say a full loot open pvp game appeals to me even though i like to play good characters. Nothing compares to the rush of actually putting something in stake when you enter into battle. But the problem with these kind of open world sandbox games is that there is a much bigger number of people that are griefers and are willing to invest more time into ruining other peoples fun.
They need to make a system where the ingame society is rewarded by aligning itself as good. Playing a murderer must also be hardcore, outlaws didn't have it easy anywhere anytime. In Mortal Online for instance, being a random player killer is both easier and more profitable than being ''good''.
So give players the tools to protect their territory effectively. Guard posts, guard patrols, jails for outlaws.
Also let people that own the territory decide the level of protection they want etc.
The system in UO only worked while the griefers were in the minority and people we predominetly role-players and crafters. Once everyone got on the red train the game went under.
Make PvP in LiF meaningful and penalize (but not remove) random griefing.
A practical application of something like this would be:
person caught in lawful territory by bount hunters or player guards with 10 murder counts gets to put in 10 hours of playtime doing something ridiculous like chopping wood in a penal colony for said lawful society.
So, just how many people do you assume will be willing to pay for that kind of permanent abuse? Please to explain who is going to pay for that. How many paying customers do you assume will simply shrug off a permanent end to their hard work, reroll, and set out for another round of abuse.
Have fun with that.
The problem with your post is that you are arguing purely from your emotions and your disdain for the system.
You sure about that? I could just turn that statement around on you but what's the point?
1, just how many people do you assume will be willing to pay for that kind of permanent abuse?
It's not abuse if you find such play fun. Is Dark Souls abuse? How about we go broader, Is tackle football abuse? How about dodge ball or boxing? The thing is, the people who want to play it find it fun. So it's not really "abuse" in the way you want it to be. What matters is that "enough" players are willing to play this game to make it financially viable (whatever that definition is to this development group) and that they can continually grow the game in a meaningful way.
People don't die in dodge ball and very rarely football. You don't have griefers from the stands running on the field executing people. If they did, how many do you think would be playing. Put the straws back.
2, How many paying customers do you assume will simply shrug off a permanent end to their hard work, reroll, and set out for another round of abuse.
None that would have your issues with the game. Why? Because they won't be playing the game.
That's exactly my point. Thanks.
Look, I'm not going to continue with this dead horse. When the game comes out the game will either explode with enthusiasm or die a painful death. I know what I think will happen and so do you.
I'm more shocked that you think people actually die in a video game.
That's exactly my point. Thanks.
Then why are you arguing and worrying about being abused and griefed? you dont' have a point it just makes you uncomfortable because you are projecting. You can't be abused and griefed if you are on board with the rules. If you aren't then you aren't playing. If you are playing then you are on board with the rules. This is the most difficult thing for some people to get.
In any case this game will not fail on its permadeath nor on open world pvp. If it fails it will fail because the devs just don't have the resources or experience to pull it off like a few other infamous pvp games that have been released.
both mo and df had their failings but in most peoples opinion those failings had nothing to do with full loot or full pvp...
i am however eager to know how death will be handled in Life Is Feudal, i can see the benefits of perma death but i can also see the negatives.. Hopefully the developers reveal their vision for that aspect of the game.
Ya that whole modern games with Full Loot Free for all PVP being total failures, just a total coincidence. That's not why, really.
Originally posted by goboygo Originally posted by deathshroudboth mo and df had their failings but in most peoples opinion those failings had nothing to do with full loot or full pvp...i am however eager to know how death will be handled in Life Is Feudal, i can see the benefits of perma death but i can also see the negatives.. Hopefully the developers reveal their vision for that aspect of the game.
Ya that whole modern games with Full Loot Free for all PVP being total failures, just a total coincidence. That's not why, really.
Get rid of full loot and they were both mediocre games so of course that wasn't it. The full loot does make it more of a niche market though.
To imply permanent death is not a good choice - very few hardcore players would love constant fear of loosing their main character. Best thing is the alignment system which regulates the penalty on skills, like the developer has declared. I would even suggest adding prolonged respawn time, for example if You're really bad and Your alignment is strongly negative, then You couldn't respawn for 10 hours. if Your alignment is good, then You should be able to respawn in one minute with very tiny loss on skills. If You're very good - no penalties on skills, and instant respawn rate - such system would be best to prevent COD kids from this game AND make think twice before killing someone.
we need yet to find out how the alignment system will work out in alpha. but i hope it will have a positive influcend on brainless ganking. never the less if you kill somebody after you did the first blow "attacked first" you will loose more skillpoint when you die than when you die "inoccent". that will be increase with more killings...
Originally posted by goboygo Originally posted by deathshroudboth mo and df had their failings but in most peoples opinion those failings had nothing to do with full loot or full pvp...i am however eager to know how death will be handled in Life Is Feudal, i can see the benefits of perma death but i can also see the negatives.. Hopefully the developers reveal their vision for that aspect of the game.
Ya that whole modern games with Full Loot Free for all PVP being total failures, just a total coincidence. That's not why, really.
That's why EVE, DF:UW, and MO are still going strong right? Playerbases are even growing for EVE and DF:UW (I'm not familiar with the subscriber demographics for MO so I can't comment on if their playerbase is growing.)
Just because a game doesn't have millions of subs like the popular themeparks doesn't make it a failure.
Originally posted by deathshroudboth mo and df had their failings but in most peoples opinion those failings had nothing to do with full loot or full pvp...i am however eager to know how death will be handled in Life Is Feudal, i can see the benefits of perma death but i can also see the negatives.. Hopefully the developers reveal their vision for that aspect of the game.
Ya that whole modern games with Full Loot Free for all PVP being total failures, just a total coincidence. That's not why, really.
That's why EVE, DF:UW, and MO are still going strong right? Playerbases are even growing for EVE and DF:UW (I'm not familiar with the subscriber demographics for MO so I can't comment on if their playerbase is growing.)
Just because a game doesn't have millions of subs like the popular themeparks doesn't make it a failure.
Some people don't even look as far as population.
For many people, all it takes is a game not being designed specifically around their personal preferences. "The game isn't made specifically with me in mind? Fail."
Some, of course, get very emotional about it, and seem to take the idea that a MMO wasn't developed specifically for them as some kind of personal insult. They're usually the ones who want it to fail... you know.. for daring to implement design concepts they don't like.
A lot of arguments made against MMOs are just people who perceive the MMO-Universe with themselves at its center.
The problem with your post is that you are arguing purely from your emotions and your disdain for the system.
1, just how many people do you assume will be willing to pay for that kind of permanent abuse?
It's not abuse if you find such play fun. Is Dark Souls abuse? How about we go broader, Is tackle football abuse? How about dodge ball or boxing? The thing is, the people who want to play it find it fun. So it's not really "abuse" in the way you want it to be. What matters is that "enough" players are willing to play this game to make it financially viable (whatever that definition is to this development group) and that they can continually grow the game in a meaningful way.
2, How many paying customers do you assume will simply shrug off a permanent end to their hard work, reroll, and set out for another round of abuse.
None that would have your issues with the game. Why? Because they won't be playing the game.
I personally feel there's a difference between hating on a dev plan because you don't like that game plan, and questioning a game plan when we've seen the same systems simply just not going well in the greater scheme of things.
There's nothing that deters griefing, these guys think they can "get rid of teh Lulz kids. we'll have the mature PKer's" sorry just isn't going to happen, the former is the greater part of who they'll attract. As always.. Hey, if that's the way they wanna go, good for them. It's like a smoker thinking they can find a different way to inhale that makes smoke less harmful. No matter how they do it, they're turning their product over to the wolves to control, sad simple truth of this type of game. A type of game that could be so much more.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I personally feel there's a difference between hating on a dev plan because you don't like that game plan, and questioning a game plan when we've seen the same systems simply just not going well in the greater scheme of things.
There's nothing that deters griefing, these guys think they can "get rid of teh Lulz kids. we'll have the mature PKer's" sorry just isn't going to happen, the former is the greater part of who they'll attract. As always.. Hey, if that's the way they wanna go, good for them. It's like a smoker thinking they can find a different way to inhale that makes smoke less harmful. No matter how they do it, they're turning their product over to the wolves to control, sad simple truth of this type of game. A type of game that could be so much more.
I looked thru the posts in this thread and didn't see what I am pasting from the other thread and felt it needed to be here too since this thread was active as well.
In the sandbox MMORPG Life is Feudal players will dread death, PKrs (player killers) especially due to skills loss, death penalties and the full loot system. The amount of skill loss is random but is heavily influenced by a players alignment. For example; positive alignment will reduce penalties to almost negligible amounts while negative alignment will increase the penalties.
There will be a Newbie starter island the people will be able to try before entering the "real" gameworld. They will be able to understand and become comfortable with all of the systems in Life is Feudal. This area is a safezone. When players feel ready to move on they will pay a fee to move that character into the gameworld.
I referenced above the alignment system. You can only gain 1 point of positive alignment per day by praying. Murdering or killing players outside of declared wars will incur a negative alignment hit. Once a player character goes below -50 alignment they are permanently "stuck" with this alignment and cannot rise above -50.
Well I'm sure you will say they just delete the character and reroll. Well yes this can be done but they will have to pay the same for each character just as someone new entering the game.
So you can gank for the lulz for about a day then with -50 alignment or lower every time you are killed you will lose a signifigant amount of skill points that will take a week or more to build back up. Once a gank for the lulz player realizes this they will probably go away or purchase a new character and play in a true sandbox fashion.
Sure you can kill people that need killing when appropriate, the prayer +1 faction should be sufficient to allow you to kill a thief or a loud mouth that needs to be put in his place but as far as ganking for the lulz I strongly doubt it.
edit - When 2 or more clans declare war on each other thru the diplomatic system, well the gloves come off at this point and the bloodbath ensues with participating guilds and player created kingdoms of which no one within these organizations will take an alignment hit until a peace treaty is agreed to.
These systems will be tested heavily in alpha and adjusted for the perfect balance.
I guess it is important to state that Life Is Feudal does NOT have permadeath - The discussion here carried on as if this was a system in place - and it is not, nor will that be used in the game.
I am one of the closed Alpha testers of Life Is Feudal, and a "old" seasoned gamer - although new to this forum.
(Flannery is my LiF forum name)
With the skill system in place (separate for crafting and combat) you can still be a crafter warrior. This means that all those who welcome both Crafting/Exploring and PvP can be both.
This is not a game for only PvP'ers, RP'ers or Crafters. Its a game for everyone from a seasoned hard core PvP'er to a Carebear -everyone is needed and has a place in it
And the kingdoms that see this need - will be the ones that will prosper the most - and also be able to deal with griefers the best way.
Each Skill can be lvl'ed up to 100.
But you will not be able to have 100 on all. The skills increase quite quickly from 0-60 making a newbie able to defend itself from very early on - almost instant.. It is much more a subject to your understanding of combat and skills as a player - not what gear you have, as anyone can use the same gear relatively quick. New players also start in the one and only persistent starter town - which is a safe place, and they can gather all the basic starter resources needed there and get hold of other things they need to be able to fend for them selves.
The combat formations system also adds to the odds of a organized group winning the day over a unorganized one.
The skills curve from 60-90 is far steeper and slower, but still manageable within weeks of normal play. Getting from 90-100 is however a totally different story - and will take allot of time. But there is still no stats gained from "end-game" armor and such, as it is purely cosmetic differences from the 90 gear. (and you get some title - mainly for the grinders out there)
You can also adjust your skills later on by marking the one you want lowered and the one you want raised, and they will decrease/increase as you work the skill you want raised.
Those who get under -50 alignment will stay at a permanent state of a criminal (marked Red), and is free to be killed without loss of alignment to anyone else. A -50 (red) will also loose ALLOT of skills if killed, and will have to work them up again to be able to gank or grief as normal - hence also why the griefer will soon be the griefed.
A "Red" will be a trespasser in ANY town, will have problems with getting all the needed support to maintain his/her character, unless he/she is in a well organized Bandit Gang - and if they are - then why not... there were bandits in the Medieval times as well as there have always been.
That gang will most likely be some sort of guild - and another guild or kingdom can wager war on any other kingdom or guild, so a "do gooder" guild could easily make life quite uneasy with hunting these bandit gangs.
And with a bounty option in plan as well - I see nothing but the possibilities of great fun here.
I cannot see that a alt swarm will be a normal thing to see here - especially not for griefing as you would have to pay to get a new char to the mainland - get the skills up on that char to be able to grief with it - and after only a few hours of griefing you will be left with exactly the same char you had already griefed with... not really worth it I think. And if they still pay to get another char over to the mainland... oh well... I guess thats just money in the bank for the game
Remember... I am pretty sure there will become hunter guilds that specialize in hunting griefers as well - as they will not loose alignment from killing them - as again... the griefer will soon become the griefed here... :P
Sure I know that it can be the other way around as well - but thats really just looking at the possible negative sides to it. The positive aspects of these plans exedes the negative by far! You will - as mentioned by Bobik and others - always have a few who want to play this style for its challanging nature. And there is a place for those in the game as well. It makes it interesting and keeps you on your toes. As you should be in a game like this...
Crafters can seek the safety of staying/living in towns, and joining guilds - The towns will provide protection through walls (these are safe areas as long as the town is not at war) - some of the guilds will provide military protection for their crafters - even when moving goods, again leaving the griefers to have to think twice.
The real threat lies towards the soloers - and frankly... if you lived alone - isolated in medieval times... well then that was a risk you were willing to take - and one you will have to take when deciding to play it like that in the game as well...
There will always be some people that will feel ganked, and also always be some who welcome that as a part of a open world sandbox. But the penalty system present will at least be there to balance it to be as realistic as possible.
In my opinion there are more then enough countermeasures to make sure it does not become a grief-fest.
I am sure the looser end of two Kingdoms at war will cry "griefing" anyway - but after all....
Nothing needs to be "handled", it´s not another safemoder themepark MMO.
It is not actually handled but more along the lines of there are actual consequences for your actions as in real life whether that is good or evil and you still have the freedom to choose.
Nothing needs to be "handled", it´s not another safemoder themepark MMO.
It is not actually handled but more along the lines of there are actual consequences for your actions as in real life whether that is good or evil and you still have the freedom to choose.
That is a sandbox.
okay, some safe city parts and a political system with lore confom punishment for crime.
I suppose that is a core mechanic, since it is a sandbox MMO
Nothing needs to be "handled", it´s not another safemoder themepark MMO.
It is not actually handled but more along the lines of there are actual consequences for your actions as in real life whether that is good or evil and you still have the freedom to choose.
That is a sandbox.
okay, some safe city parts and a political system with lore confom punishment for crime.
I suppose that is a core mechanic, since it is a sandbox MMO
Well actually it is a Sandbox MMORPG - so it is actually a role-playing sandbox game - depicting a certain era, so the consequences of your choices will be close to what they would be in that era in real life.
And the starter town only really functions as a spawn point for newbies.
And of course your actions should have consequences - it does not mean you do not have freedom...
If your style is more to play as a crafter or farmer, a direct consequence to that would be that you might need to join a guild and/or live close to a town for some safety in numbers and so on - if not, a direct consequence to that choice might be that you place yourself as free pickins for bandits...
If you concentrate solely on PvP - a direct consequence to that might be you need help from the crafters and farmers to provide what you need for your character - again probably obligating you to help defend them as well when needed. If not - a direct consequence to that will be that you will have to stop concentrating solely on PvP...
If you concentrate solely on killing people wherever you go - you will fall below -50 in alignment and have to live with the consequences. If you seldom kill, and rob people by knocking them unconscious you will loose alignment slower and be able to stay above -50 by timing your ill conducts. But by then I would not call you a griefer. If I have understood it right - the system also allows you to never fall beneath -49 alignment if you never kill. If you only knock people unconscious at that lvl - it will never cross the bar to -50 and the point of no return. After what I have understood - only a coldblooded kill can make you cross that line.
So again... there is a place for the thieves and bandits - but they must also live with the consequences to their choices as the rest of the people will with their play styles.
Factions/Kingdoms/Towns/Guilds that have declared war against each other - can however kill each other without alignment loss.
You are still free to choose what path you want for your character.
And if you never cross that line you can actually change that path a infinite number of times. But if you cross that line - there is really no going back. Only to deal with it
Comments
ok I'm calling you out on the carpet.
You show me where I said there was a "large volume of players ...".
Or perhaps there are just "Players who are willing'? Especially as we know that there are players who like/want these games.
go ahead. You said it. Now explain yourself.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
You didn't say that, I did. Not sure about your carpet reference.
So, just how many people do you assume will be willing to pay for that kind of permanent abuse? Please to explain who is going to pay for that. How many paying customers do you assume will simply shrug off a permanent end to their hard work, reroll, and set out for another round of abuse.
Have fun with that.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
This sounds somewhat similar to the UO modal which I liked very much. I don't think this will appeal to the masses of today tho but it might appeal more to the niche that this game is trying to cover.
Do a naughty like attack a blue (innocent person), steal something and be seen, loot from a corpse that you did not kill, ect ... and you get flagged grey and are attackable by anyone, anywhere, any time (in town NPC guards pwn you near instantly) for like 10 mins or whatever it was.
Kill a blue and you get a set number of hours added to your character that has to be worked off, if the # of hours exceeds some limit then you turn red which means you are attackable by anyone, anywhere, anytime until you work off those hours. Reds can not enter towns or the NPC guards will wtfpwn them near instantly and with their red name there is no question of their intentions. If you died as a red there was a big concequence in doing so ... you would loose a few points in your highest skill or skills forcing you to have to retrain those back up to 100. Which in UO going from 95-100 in most cases took a considerable amount of time even macroing.
This puts justice in the hands of the players, this does not stop griefing by the game itself and does provide a higher level of safety in numbers.
this. Not in all details, but we're on the same wave.
I've yet to see or hear experiences from any mates that an alignment system worked. That doesn't mean that one can't work, or hasn't worked ... but I've not experienced it personally or via retelling. As such I'm going to assume the system will work as have all the alignment systems and un-regulated open pvp titles I have played : Gank group roams around griefing, instantly runs when death is a possibility. There will always be ways to bend the rules and penalties of pvp systems based on such limp systems. I hope the developers are able to prove this trend wrong, but I suspect it will devolve into the same open pvp absurdity which curves these such titles into niche abscurity.
The problem with your post is that you are arguing purely from your emotions and your disdain for the system.
1, just how many people do you assume will be willing to pay for that kind of permanent abuse?
It's not abuse if you find such play fun. Is Dark Souls abuse? How about we go broader, Is tackle football abuse? How about dodge ball or boxing? The thing is, the people who want to play it find it fun. So it's not really "abuse" in the way you want it to be. What matters is that "enough" players are willing to play this game to make it financially viable (whatever that definition is to this development group) and that they can continually grow the game in a meaningful way.
2, How many paying customers do you assume will simply shrug off a permanent end to their hard work, reroll, and set out for another round of abuse.
None that would have your issues with the game. Why? Because they won't be playing the game.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Look, I'm not going to continue with this dead horse. When the game comes out the game will either explode with enthusiasm or die a painful death. I know what I think will happen and so do you.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
I'm more shocked that you think people actually die in a video game.
That's exactly my point. Thanks.
Then why are you arguing and worrying about being abused and griefed? you dont' have a point it just makes you uncomfortable because you are projecting. You can't be abused and griefed if you are on board with the rules. If you aren't then you aren't playing. If you are playing then you are on board with the rules. This is the most difficult thing for some people to get.
In any case this game will not fail on its permadeath nor on open world pvp. If it fails it will fail because the devs just don't have the resources or experience to pull it off like a few other infamous pvp games that have been released.
In any case I wish them luck.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I've played Mortal Online for a while and i have to say a full loot open pvp game appeals to me even though i like to play good characters. Nothing compares to the rush of actually putting something in stake when you enter into battle. But the problem with these kind of open world sandbox games is that there is a much bigger number of people that are griefers and are willing to invest more time into ruining other peoples fun.
They need to make a system where the ingame society is rewarded by aligning itself as good. Playing a murderer must also be hardcore, outlaws didn't have it easy anywhere anytime. In Mortal Online for instance, being a random player killer is both easier and more profitable than being ''good''.
So give players the tools to protect their territory effectively. Guard posts, guard patrols, jails for outlaws.
Also let people that own the territory decide the level of protection they want etc.
The system in UO only worked while the griefers were in the minority and people we predominetly role-players and crafters. Once everyone got on the red train the game went under.
Make PvP in LiF meaningful and penalize (but not remove) random griefing.
A practical application of something like this would be:
person caught in lawful territory by bount hunters or player guards with 10 murder counts gets to put in 10 hours of playtime doing something ridiculous like chopping wood in a penal colony for said lawful society.
I enjoyed the way you handled that
This reply is on topic
http://www.entropiapartners.com/?r=22415
Ya that whole modern games with Full Loot Free for all PVP being total failures, just a total coincidence. That's not why, really.
Get rid of full loot and they were both mediocre games so of course that wasn't it. The full loot does make it more of a niche market though.
Anyone suggesting permadeath in a game like this, is mental, in my eyes.
Obviously it's not gonna happen as that would attract every griefer known to man, so lets just leave it at that.
Bobik: Can you tell a bit more about how the alignment system is gonna work.
Lets say a guy in my friendlist or whatever is being attacked. Can I help him out without being flagged as a bad guy?
The system in Ultima Online worked really well on that front (as has been briefly mentioned).
we need yet to find out how the alignment system will work out in alpha. but i hope it will have a positive influcend on brainless ganking. never the less if you kill somebody after you did the first blow "attacked first" you will loose more skillpoint when you die than when you die "inoccent". that will be increase with more killings...
http://lifeisfeudal.com/mmorpgsandLiF/Massive-PvP-battles-and-sieges-in-Life-is-Feudal
That's why EVE, DF:UW, and MO are still going strong right? Playerbases are even growing for EVE and DF:UW (I'm not familiar with the subscriber demographics for MO so I can't comment on if their playerbase is growing.)
Just because a game doesn't have millions of subs like the popular themeparks doesn't make it a failure.
Waiting for:
The Repopulation
Albion Online
Some people don't even look as far as population.
For many people, all it takes is a game not being designed specifically around their personal preferences. "The game isn't made specifically with me in mind? Fail."
Some, of course, get very emotional about it, and seem to take the idea that a MMO wasn't developed specifically for them as some kind of personal insult. They're usually the ones who want it to fail... you know.. for daring to implement design concepts they don't like.
A lot of arguments made against MMOs are just people who perceive the MMO-Universe with themselves at its center.
Life IS Feudal
I personally feel there's a difference between hating on a dev plan because you don't like that game plan, and questioning a game plan when we've seen the same systems simply just not going well in the greater scheme of things.
There's nothing that deters griefing, these guys think they can "get rid of teh Lulz kids. we'll have the mature PKer's" sorry just isn't going to happen, the former is the greater part of who they'll attract. As always.. Hey, if that's the way they wanna go, good for them. It's like a smoker thinking they can find a different way to inhale that makes smoke less harmful. No matter how they do it, they're turning their product over to the wolves to control, sad simple truth of this type of game. A type of game that could be so much more.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I looked thru the posts in this thread and didn't see what I am pasting from the other thread and felt it needed to be here too since this thread was active as well.
The difference here is this quote from the website pulled from here http://lifeisfeudal.com/mmorpgsandLiF/Death-and-Alignment-in-sandbox-MMO-game-Life-is-Feudal:
In the sandbox MMORPG Life is Feudal players will dread death, PKrs (player killers) especially due to skills loss, death penalties and the full loot system. The amount of skill loss is random but is heavily influenced by a players alignment. For example; positive alignment will reduce penalties to almost negligible amounts while negative alignment will increase the penalties.
There will be a Newbie starter island the people will be able to try before entering the "real" gameworld. They will be able to understand and become comfortable with all of the systems in Life is Feudal. This area is a safezone. When players feel ready to move on they will pay a fee to move that character into the gameworld.
I referenced above the alignment system. You can only gain 1 point of positive alignment per day by praying. Murdering or killing players outside of declared wars will incur a negative alignment hit. Once a player character goes below -50 alignment they are permanently "stuck" with this alignment and cannot rise above -50.
Well I'm sure you will say they just delete the character and reroll. Well yes this can be done but they will have to pay the same for each character just as someone new entering the game.
So you can gank for the lulz for about a day then with -50 alignment or lower every time you are killed you will lose a signifigant amount of skill points that will take a week or more to build back up. Once a gank for the lulz player realizes this they will probably go away or purchase a new character and play in a true sandbox fashion.
Sure you can kill people that need killing when appropriate, the prayer +1 faction should be sufficient to allow you to kill a thief or a loud mouth that needs to be put in his place but as far as ganking for the lulz I strongly doubt it.
edit - When 2 or more clans declare war on each other thru the diplomatic system, well the gloves come off at this point and the bloodbath ensues with participating guilds and player created kingdoms of which no one within these organizations will take an alignment hit until a peace treaty is agreed to.
These systems will be tested heavily in alpha and adjusted for the perfect balance.
I think you get the idea and if not well...
Life IS Feudal
I guess it is important to state that Life Is Feudal does NOT have permadeath - The discussion here carried on as if this was a system in place - and it is not, nor will that be used in the game.
I am one of the closed Alpha testers of Life Is Feudal, and a "old" seasoned gamer - although new to this forum.
(Flannery is my LiF forum name)
With the skill system in place (separate for crafting and combat) you can still be a crafter warrior. This means that all those who welcome both Crafting/Exploring and PvP can be both.
This is not a game for only PvP'ers, RP'ers or Crafters. Its a game for everyone from a seasoned hard core PvP'er to a Carebear -everyone is needed and has a place in it
And the kingdoms that see this need - will be the ones that will prosper the most - and also be able to deal with griefers the best way.
Each Skill can be lvl'ed up to 100.
But you will not be able to have 100 on all. The skills increase quite quickly from 0-60 making a newbie able to defend itself from very early on - almost instant.. It is much more a subject to your understanding of combat and skills as a player - not what gear you have, as anyone can use the same gear relatively quick. New players also start in the one and only persistent starter town - which is a safe place, and they can gather all the basic starter resources needed there and get hold of other things they need to be able to fend for them selves.
The combat formations system also adds to the odds of a organized group winning the day over a unorganized one.
The skills curve from 60-90 is far steeper and slower, but still manageable within weeks of normal play. Getting from 90-100 is however a totally different story - and will take allot of time. But there is still no stats gained from "end-game" armor and such, as it is purely cosmetic differences from the 90 gear. (and you get some title - mainly for the grinders out there)
You can also adjust your skills later on by marking the one you want lowered and the one you want raised, and they will decrease/increase as you work the skill you want raised.
Those who get under -50 alignment will stay at a permanent state of a criminal (marked Red), and is free to be killed without loss of alignment to anyone else. A -50 (red) will also loose ALLOT of skills if killed, and will have to work them up again to be able to gank or grief as normal - hence also why the griefer will soon be the griefed.
A "Red" will be a trespasser in ANY town, will have problems with getting all the needed support to maintain his/her character, unless he/she is in a well organized Bandit Gang - and if they are - then why not... there were bandits in the Medieval times as well as there have always been.
That gang will most likely be some sort of guild - and another guild or kingdom can wager war on any other kingdom or guild, so a "do gooder" guild could easily make life quite uneasy with hunting these bandit gangs.
And with a bounty option in plan as well - I see nothing but the possibilities of great fun here.
I cannot see that a alt swarm will be a normal thing to see here - especially not for griefing as you would have to pay to get a new char to the mainland - get the skills up on that char to be able to grief with it - and after only a few hours of griefing you will be left with exactly the same char you had already griefed with... not really worth it I think. And if they still pay to get another char over to the mainland... oh well... I guess thats just money in the bank for the game
Remember... I am pretty sure there will become hunter guilds that specialize in hunting griefers as well - as they will not loose alignment from killing them - as again... the griefer will soon become the griefed here... :P
Sure I know that it can be the other way around as well - but thats really just looking at the possible negative sides to it. The positive aspects of these plans exedes the negative by far! You will - as mentioned by Bobik and others - always have a few who want to play this style for its challanging nature. And there is a place for those in the game as well. It makes it interesting and keeps you on your toes. As you should be in a game like this...
Crafters can seek the safety of staying/living in towns, and joining guilds - The towns will provide protection through walls (these are safe areas as long as the town is not at war) - some of the guilds will provide military protection for their crafters - even when moving goods, again leaving the griefers to have to think twice.
The real threat lies towards the soloers - and frankly... if you lived alone - isolated in medieval times... well then that was a risk you were willing to take - and one you will have to take when deciding to play it like that in the game as well...
There will always be some people that will feel ganked, and also always be some who welcome that as a part of a open world sandbox. But the penalty system present will at least be there to balance it to be as realistic as possible.
In my opinion there are more then enough countermeasures to make sure it does not become a grief-fest.
I am sure the looser end of two Kingdoms at war will cry "griefing" anyway - but after all....
Life Is Feudal....
**EDIT**
PS. Sorry for the wall of text...
"The enemy of my enemy - is my friend"
This is a sandbox MMO.
Nothing needs to be "handled", it´s not another safemoder themepark MMO.
It is not actually handled but more along the lines of there are actual consequences for your actions as in real life whether that is good or evil and you still have the freedom to choose.
That is a sandbox.
Life IS Feudal
okay, some safe city parts and a political system with lore confom punishment for crime.
I suppose that is a core mechanic, since it is a sandbox MMO
Well actually it is a Sandbox MMORPG - so it is actually a role-playing sandbox game - depicting a certain era, so the consequences of your choices will be close to what they would be in that era in real life.
And the starter town only really functions as a spawn point for newbies.
And of course your actions should have consequences - it does not mean you do not have freedom...
If your style is more to play as a crafter or farmer, a direct consequence to that would be that you might need to join a guild and/or live close to a town for some safety in numbers and so on - if not, a direct consequence to that choice might be that you place yourself as free pickins for bandits...
If you concentrate solely on PvP - a direct consequence to that might be you need help from the crafters and farmers to provide what you need for your character - again probably obligating you to help defend them as well when needed. If not - a direct consequence to that will be that you will have to stop concentrating solely on PvP...
If you concentrate solely on killing people wherever you go - you will fall below -50 in alignment and have to live with the consequences. If you seldom kill, and rob people by knocking them unconscious you will loose alignment slower and be able to stay above -50 by timing your ill conducts. But by then I would not call you a griefer. If I have understood it right - the system also allows you to never fall beneath -49 alignment if you never kill. If you only knock people unconscious at that lvl - it will never cross the bar to -50 and the point of no return. After what I have understood - only a coldblooded kill can make you cross that line.
So again... there is a place for the thieves and bandits - but they must also live with the consequences to their choices as the rest of the people will with their play styles.
Factions/Kingdoms/Towns/Guilds that have declared war against each other - can however kill each other without alignment loss.
You are still free to choose what path you want for your character.
And if you never cross that line you can actually change that path a infinite number of times. But if you cross that line - there is really no going back. Only to deal with it
"The enemy of my enemy - is my friend"