MMO's Cater too much to Casual.

Alminie

Does anyone else have that feeling like MMO's Cater too much to Casual gamers?

[mod edit]

 

My list of reasons why Devs do this is.

 

1: Money

Since there are more Casual gamers, they see they can make more money from them, so they cater to casual gamers, and neglect us real gamers since they feel we can't make them any money.

 

2: Fast Money

Since developing a MMO takes a while, devs have to make money fast after release to make up for the losses during development, so it seems like the best way to do this is making the mmo more Casual, "but really this ends up hurting the mmo in the long term."

 

3: Lazy developers

lets just admit Casual gamers are easier to please then hardcore gamers.

if Developers made a mmo that was more challenging and appealing to hardcore gamers, it would take longer and require more thought and planning.

and make less money, since there are less hardcore gamers, then casual gamers.

 

Solution: Devs should look ahead and see that developing a mmo that is challenging, and doesn't take 2 weeks to get to end game + geared. can reward them far more in the long run.

Just look at WoW, I hate to say it but they did have some success,

But the reason they even had any gamers playing to begin with is because WoW used to be a challenging mmo, and over time became easier to cater to a more casual crowd. but what drew gamers in was the challenge, but later they stayed for the memories.

but anyways whats your thoughts?

HEKKRA

Originally posted by cowhead
Only that you seem a arrogant shite with your talk of "real gamers". Who are you to tell anyone what they enjoy is wrong? You said it yourself; casual players seem to be the majority. Who knows, maybe you and your "hardcore" gamers are ruining things for everyone else.

No because you had to sit down and put in effort in older games. Just look at where World of Warcraft started.

Ridrith

Anybody who refers to themselves as a serious gamer or a hardcore gamer are automatically logged as:  Socially awkward miscreants who look down on others who don't share the same "passion" or dedication to a game as they do.  'Pro'tip:  Not everybody wants to dedicate themselves to one game.  Not everybody is going to put in the countless hours and adhere to strict schedules of progression to complete end game content.  MOST people want to jump into a game and have a few hours of fun with friends and family or just use the game as way to relax and enjoy themselves after a long day at school or work.  Games are an escape.  There isn't anything inherently wrong with having difficult content or just having the game be outright hard.  The fact of the matter is that companies are making these games to create profit so that they can continue to make said games.  There's a much larger audience of casual players then there EVER will be for the 'hardcore' or 'serious' game crowd.

 

MOST people, aka the majority of people who will be giving these companies box sales, subscriptions for at LEAST the first 1-6 months after release are going to be the 'casual' players.  The people who pop and enjoy the game at their own pace and the people who have other responsibilities beyond being dedicated to a game or it's online populace/guild.  Even the most hardcore will leave before certain casuals, like roleplayers.  RPers will stick with a game LONG after it's been declared dead because they value friendships/partnerships made in game beyond just looking to the next big content update so that they can continue the long line of farming for loot and completing the most difficult content that the game has on offer.

Mattatron

Originally posted by Ridrith

Anybody who refers to themselves as a serious gamer or a hardcore gamer are automatically logged as:  Socially awkward miscreants ...

"Stop right there, criminal scum." ~ ESIV Oblivion

cowhead

Originally posted by HEKKRA

Originally posted by cowhead
Only that you seem a arrogant shite with your talk of "real gamers". Who are you to tell anyone what they enjoy is wrong? You said it yourself; casual players seem to be the majority. Who knows, maybe you and your "hardcore" gamers are ruining things for everyone else.

No because you had to sit down and put in effort in older games. Just look at where World of Warcraft started.

 

You're right. You did have to put a great deal more into older games. Not disputing that. My point is that OP seems like as ass. Simply because someone enjoys something different doesn't make them wrong. Hardcore and casual titles are silly. We are just gamers. Enjoy what you enjoy and leave each other in peace. Though if you can't find something to enjoy; that truly is too bad.

Ridrith

Originally posted by Mattatron

Originally posted by Ridrith

Anybody who refers to themselves as a serious gamer or a hardcore gamer are automatically logged as:  Socially awkward miscreants ...

"Stop right there, criminal scum." ~ ESIV Oblivion

If I could one up or like a post I'd like yours.

rodingo

Originally posted by Alminie
 

1: Money

Since there are more Casual gamers, they see they can make more money from them, so they cater to casual gamers, and neglect us real gamers since they feel we can't make them any money.

The thing of it is, the casual gamers' $15 a month spends and pays the bills just the same as the "hardcore" does.  It's just that there is more casual money to be made.  Not the devs fault.  Blame Nintendo, Sony, and Xbox for pushing consoles so big the last couple of decades.  Also, those of us that have been playing games since we were kids are now grown up and have kids of our own with less time to play, thus knocking us into the casual bracket.  That's not our fault either, it's just life dude.

Alminie

Originally posted by rodingo

Originally posted by Alminie
 

1: Money

Since there are more Casual gamers, they see they can make more money from them, so they cater to casual gamers, and neglect us real gamers since they feel we can't make them any money.

The thing of it is, the casual gamers' $15 a month spends and pays the bills just the same as the "hardcore" does.  It's just that there is more casual money to be made.  Not the devs fault.  Blame Nintendo, Sony, and Xbox for pushing consoles so big the last couple of decades.  Also, those of us that have been playing games since we were kids are now grown up and have kids of our own with less time to play, thus knocking us into the casual bracket.  That's not our fault either, it's just life dude.

 

Nah I like to blame things like Farmville, and WoW after the second expansion making it far more casual, then other mmo's following right after that trend. Nintendo, Xbox, and Playstation all used to have games that where challenging, and some games are still challenging these days, but there are far less these days, and it of sucks.

Classicstar

Millions playing, there seems a market for it?

I'll bet you play them also, don't yah?

Everyday for years now same old topics lol its get old and tiresome.

Comming to forum beating for years same old dead horse is no solution and very negative.

Bring some positive come up with ideas maybe some developer pick up your idea who knows?

Positive thinking bring you forward not negative thoughts.

Classicstar

---

Originally posted by cowhead
Only that you seem a arrogant shite with your talk of "real gamers". Who are you to tell anyone what they enjoy is wrong? You said it yourself; casual players seem to be the majority. Who knows, maybe you and your "hardcore" gamers are ruining things for everyone else.

---

Some are elite and know it all it seems, let them is entertaining:)

Zajjar

I PLAY casually, but, my niveau is hardcore, i exceed to the max in any game i triffle with, AND YES, the problem with todays mmos is that, yes we dont have much time like back in the days 10hours straight pr day, BUT that doesnt mean shit should be carebear content and a walk in the park. WORLD OF DARKNESS ! cant wait, I'm more of a high fantasy gamer, d&d, eq, etc. BUT if it means hardcore sandbox mmo mode, i dont care if its claws, guns or mere magic im tearing through my opponents with, so long as there is a substance of intelligent challenge!

Fangrim

Originally posted by Ridrith

Anybody who refers to themselves as a serious gamer or a hardcore gamer are automatically logged as:  Socially awkward miscreants who look down on others who don't share the same "passion" or dedication to a game as they do.  'Pro'tip:  Not everybody wants to dedicate themselves to one game.  Not everybody is going to put in the countless hours and adhere to strict schedules of progression to complete end game content.  MOST people want to jump into a game and have a few hours of fun with friends and family or just use the game as way to relax and enjoy themselves after a long day at school or work.  Games are an escape.  There isn't anything inherently wrong with having difficult content or just having the game be outright hard.  The fact of the matter is that companies are making these games to create profit so that they can continue to make said games.  There's a much larger audience of casual players then there EVER will be for the 'hardcore' or 'serious' game crowd.

 

MOST people, aka the majority of people who will be giving these companies box sales, subscriptions for at LEAST the first 1-6 months after release are going to be the 'casual' players.  The people who pop and enjoy the game at their own pace and the people who have other responsibilities beyond being dedicated to a game or it's online populace/guild.  Even the most hardcore will leave before certain casuals, like roleplayers.  RPers will stick with a game LONG after it's been declared dead because they value friendships/partnerships made in game beyond just looking to the next big content update so that they can continue the long line of farming for loot and completing the most difficult content that the game has on offer.

Soooo,If a game came out that was really hard and took time to do things like no fast travel,DF and the content was largely group based with a crafting/gathering system that took as long to level as adventure (which will ofc be slow xp) would this so called 'casual' crowd play it too? I mean they can still log into the game for a few hours for fun?

immodium

Has there ever been a "hardcore" MMO?

IMO a hardcore MMO would have lives, no save feature. You lose your allocated lives it's perma death. That's what old games were like. It's the only reason they were classed as hardcore as you could not save.

As soon as a game incorporates a save feature, all hardcore aspects are lost.

IMO.

Ridrith

If that's the type of game they wanted to play.  Duh.  

Alminie

Originally posted by Fangrim

Soooo,If a game came out that was really hard and took time to do things like no fast travel,DF and the content was largely group based with a crafting/gathering system that took as long to level as adventure (which will ofc be slow xp) would this so called 'casual' crowd play it too? I mean they can still log into the game for a few hours for fun?

Totally agree.

Xthos

Originally posted by Classicstar

Millions playing, there seems a market for it?

I'll bet you play them also, don't yah?

Everyday for years now same old topics lol its get old and tiresome.

Comming to forum beating for years same old dead horse is no solution and very negative.

Bring some positive come up with ideas maybe some developer pick up your idea who knows?

Positive thinking bring you forward not negative thoughts.

 

 So, what is wrong with people posting that they think most modern mmos are too casual/quick?  People say they want mmos to be more time consuming, but I don't really see people calling for all mmos to be like this.  It is a call for more variety.  Some people would rather mmos play closer to a single player game, than a traditional mmo...and some would prefer something along the lines of old EQ/Vanilla WoW.

If people stay silent, they are doing a disservice to themselves.  Not saying posting what you want to see will do something, but it has a lot more of a chance to do something, verse not posting at all.

 

Lustmord

If you think MMO's are too solo-centric and casual friendly, you should be playing Darkfall.

Xthos

Originally posted by immodium

Has there ever been a "hardcore" MMO?

IMO a hardcore MMO would have lives, no save feature. You lose your allocated lives it's perma death. That's what old games were like. It's the only reason they were classed as hardcore as you could not save.

As soon as a game incorporates a save feature, all hardcore aspects are lost.

IMO.

 With no 'save', you don't really have a mmo, as you could never log out, it would be a session game, that starts over every time you die or log in, since your character would I guess die when you logged out.

I would personally view that as casual, if you can't keep anything or strive towards a real goal, then who cares, and if you don't care, then that is about as casual of a game session as you can get. 

immodium

Originally posted by Xthos

Originally posted by immodium

Has there ever been a "hardcore" MMO?

IMO a hardcore MMO would have lives, no save feature. You lose your allocated lives it's perma death. That's what old games were like. It's the only reason they were classed as hardcore as you could not save.

As soon as a game incorporates a save feature, all hardcore aspects are lost.

IMO.

 With no 'save', you don't really have a mmo, as you could never log out, it would be a session game, that starts over every time you die or log in, since your character would I guess die when you logged out.

I would personally view that as casual, if you can't keep anything or strive towards a real goal, then who cares, and if you don't care, then that is about as casual of a game session as you can get. 

In most games I have played there has been a goal to reach. It's just been made a lot more casual and easy to get to with a save function.

Loktofeit

Originally posted by HEKKRA

Originally posted by cowhead
Only that you seem a arrogant shite with your talk of "real gamers". Who are you to tell anyone what they enjoy is wrong? You said it yourself; casual players seem to be the majority. Who knows, maybe you and your "hardcore" gamers are ruining things for everyone else.

No because you had to sit down and put in effort in older games. Just look at where World of Warcraft started.

It's interesting how much things have changed, that what was considered a ridiculously easy, casual oriented game at release is now being used as the example of "sit down and put in effort."

 

Xthos

Originally posted by immodium

Originally posted by Xthos

Originally posted by immodium

Has there ever been a "hardcore" MMO?

IMO a hardcore MMO would have lives, no save feature. You lose your allocated lives it's perma death. That's what old games were like. It's the only reason they were classed as hardcore as you could not save.

As soon as a game incorporates a save feature, all hardcore aspects are lost.

IMO.

 With no 'save', you don't really have a mmo, as you could never log out, it would be a session game, that starts over every time you die or log in, since your character would I guess die when you logged out.

I would personally view that as casual, if you can't keep anything or strive towards a real goal, then who cares, and if you don't care, then that is about as casual of a game session as you can get. 

In most games I have played there has been a goal to reach. It's just been made a lot more casual and easy to get to with a save function.

 Well, in a mmo, the 'save', would be when you log out and can come back alive, that was my point for a mmo and the 'save'.  So it would be a rather silly mmo imo.

 

bcbully

I agree!!!

Xthos

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by HEKKRA

Originally posted by cowhead
Only that you seem a arrogant shite with your talk of "real gamers". Who are you to tell anyone what they enjoy is wrong? You said it yourself; casual players seem to be the majority. Who knows, maybe you and your "hardcore" gamers are ruining things for everyone else.

No because you had to sit down and put in effort in older games. Just look at where World of Warcraft started.

It's interesting how much things have changed, that what was considered a ridiculously easy, casual oriented game at release is now being used as the example of "sit down and put in effort."

 

 Well yes, I included it in my post, as I only played WoW beta, and I did think it was more casual than old EQ...Just think you have to be realistic, I doubt we are going to see a AAA mmo with the required time sinks of the first couple expansions of EQ1 (with hell levels and such).

immodium

Originally posted by Xthos

Originally posted by immodium

Originally posted by Xthos

Originally posted by immodium

Has there ever been a "hardcore" MMO?

IMO a hardcore MMO would have lives, no save feature. You lose your allocated lives it's perma death. That's what old games were like. It's the only reason they were classed as hardcore as you could not save.

As soon as a game incorporates a save feature, all hardcore aspects are lost.

IMO.

 With no 'save', you don't really have a mmo, as you could never log out, it would be a session game, that starts over every time you die or log in, since your character would I guess die when you logged out.

I would personally view that as casual, if you can't keep anything or strive towards a real goal, then who cares, and if you don't care, then that is about as casual of a game session as you can get. 

In most games I have played there has been a goal to reach. It's just been made a lot more casual and easy to get to with a save function.

 Well, in a mmo, the 'save', would be when you log out and can come back alive, that was my point for a mmo and the 'save'.  So it would be a rather silly mmo imo.

 

Oh yeah, regarding an MMO you would need a save feature.

But that brings me back to my question, has there ever been a "hardcore" MMO? IMO the harsher the death penalty, the more "hardcore" your getting.

Kyleran

So what you are saying in the OP is that modern MMO's have largely removed the arduous time sinks of the early titles hence are less worthy?

There are many things I enjoyed about older MMO's and in fact currently play on a reset version of DAOC back to 2003.

But even there the people running it took out the exponential grind that used to exist from level 45-50 as it really served no purpose except to keep people from capping out and reaching the frontier RVR zone, something Mythic eventually did in the live version as well.

I would like to see some of the more time consuming mechanics of earlier titles return, but in no way am I interested in the grind/time spent that some titles such as Lineage 2 had, was too much for me then, heck, even as the game is now I can't grind to level cap in L2.

 

Vorthanion

You have the very recent release of Wizardry Online, one of if not the most hardcore MMO to ever release.  Then there is Darkfall with it's new re-release.  Final Fantasy XIV with the more grindy aspects of the older games.  Tera isn't exactly casual friendly and it's a recent release.  How about the upcoming Archeage, which is purported to be fairly hardcore.  Wildstar is going to have lots of 40 man raid content and sounds exactly like vanilla WoW.  Then there is EverQuest Next, being a sandbox MMO, I've yet to ever see anyone label any sandbox as casual.  The Secret World isn't exactly casual friendly either and is a fairly recent release.

 

I'm not sure where you think the industry has forgotten you guys.  I get the distinct feeling your gripe is really about every single MMO not catering specifically and completely to you.