Ok so to add on the gambling analogy as it relates to "meaningful pvp".. I thought this was a brilliant of why it's important to have such a mechanic.
When I play golf, it adds to the experience to play for a little money, even if it's something like a dollar a hole. Everything just means more while the most you could really lose is 18 bucks (18 holes). Same goes for the Office Fantasy football league with a nominal entry fee.. It may not be a lot, but people act a lot differently when there's a tangible value at stake. Now before people tell me about how video games are for fun and should not have this aspect, I'm not advocating the hardcore full loot which is what a lot of people equate "meaningful pvp" to.
If Wildstar were to have competitive ladders in Arena's, or battleground style pvp, it could go a long way to attracting players from the ever growing populations of LoL or DOTA 2.
My overall point is that if they just make PvE based raids and questing the focus of this game without really engaging the pvp crowd, then it's just going to be another WoW clone that will go free to play with a cash shop in the first year. That's not what I want, and would rather debate constructive implementations that debating the theory of whether meaningful pvp needs to be in a game for it to have a justifiable reason to subscribe monthly.
I think punishment exists in this game, and that is why guilds will again be useful and have power and influence.
Because now if you lose at pvp you also lose the raid boss, if someone else takes your raidboss they have a better warplot and they are the top.
The competition between open world raid boss capturing is really going to spice up open world pvp just like in the great days of lineage 2 raid fights and castle fights
And that is why Warplots seem so good to me. Although for the sake of argument, it is the only punishment you will see across all of the other PvP modes though, which I'm fine with. BGs will be for those who want to easily level and gear through PvP primarily, Arenas will be for those who care about rankings, climbing ranks, and getting special arena gear, and Warplots are for the end-game, large group based PvP fans who want more of a siege/be sieged mode with chances of gaining the highest PvP gear in the game.
I for one am very excited for the PvP in this game, it's the PvE that I'm not certain of yet until they open up higher than level 36 content.
Ya agreed. Alot of the kiddies in here never experienced UO felucia where you died and lost everything in your bag and had to travel to you're body to try and retrieve some of you're posessions.
Unfortunately games like WOW and GW2 have turned pvp fights into a joke. You die and you just rez up and get back in the battle with barely any consequence.
I understand that a lot of people dont like to lose, its a win win generation and even the losers get a medal nowdays but I wish some of these games would make servers not only for the carebear crowd but also for those of us not afraid of loss.
There are some out there that play games to relax and have fun and not be ganked and griefed. Granted there seem to be more games akin to WoW and GW2 with less strict punishment to PvP, but that's variety.
Just because I may like less PvP categorizes me a kid?! Seriously?
Ya agreed. Alot of the kiddies in here never experienced UO felucia where you died and lost everything in your bag and had to travel to you're body to try and retrieve some of you're posessions.
Unfortunately games like WOW and GW2 have turned pvp fights into a joke. You die and you just rez up and get back in the battle with barely any consequence.
I understand that a lot of people dont like to lose, its a win win generation and even the losers get a medal nowdays but I wish some of these games would make servers not only for the carebear crowd but also for those of us not afraid of loss.
There are some out there that play games to relax and have fun and not be ganked and griefed. Granted there seem to be more games akin to WoW and GW2 with less strict punishment to PvP, but that's variety.
Just because I may like less PvP categorizes me a kid?! Seriously?
I assuming it is an age reference based on the fact that UO was out a long while back and anyone to young to have played it would be a kid in comparison to those of us that did. I do not think it was a reference to you chosen style of pvp.
I too seek a more "hardcore" Open World PvP styled MMORPG. They're definitely out there; Darkfall, Mortal Online, EVE, hell even Oldschool Runescape, but there's one thing about them, they're all either old or clunky / graphically terrible. Sure there are some others coming out soon like The Repopulation, but that one looks even worse, in regards to clunkyness, than some of the currently released hardcore MMOs. Truth is, no AAA company is going to invest enough money into a hardcore styled MMORPG due to the following scenario:
Lucy buys WoW Killer Suck My Pee Pee 2.0. Lucy loves WoW Killer Suck My Pee Pee 2.0. One day, Lucy is mining some pixels when all of a sudden, she gets shanked in the back by Lord Booty Acquirer, losing all of her precious items that she worked very long and hard for. Lucy now hates WoW Killer Suck My Pee Pee 2.0 and will never resubscribe again.
Lucy is what a lot of us would call a mainstream gamer. Mainstream gamers don't like hardcore elements unless it is in their favor.
When I was growing up, when you don't get #1 , you lose, you learn to do better next time, so that you aren't a loser anymore. So you work harder and study longer and strive to reach that #1 spot.
Nowadays, when you lose you are praised for trying, you get a 5th place medal, you get rewarded with trophies that has no meaning other than to ease your pain. So you don't try harder or study longer.
This is the generation of everyone is a winner and no one is a loser.
That mentality is what developers are trying to cater to now.
So meaningful PVP, will never exist in Themepark MMO, nor will Meaningful Gears, Meaningful Quests
I remember the times when PVP Gear would only be obtained by the dedicated and skillful players, but nowadays, its everyone that PVP can get it, regardless if you just lost 100 games , because you are rewarded for losing as well. Its all about time sinks now, winning in Instanced PVP has no meaning other than getting the same gear everyone gets eventually.
I am still waiting on Games that will not be afraid to praise the winners and punish the losers.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
For me, pvp is about anger, frustration, revenge, greed, bullying etc.
There is no meaning greater than these basic emotions for pvp.
I don't understand when people refer to a certain framework for meaningful pvp.
Meaningful pvp for me is untamed, spontaneous and unpredictable. It doesn't need no framework at all. It needs to be that annoying part of the game we have to live with.
I would love it if they introduce this type of pvp in Wildstar. I'm not following the game so much, even though I am charmed from what I saw.
I too seek a more "hardcore" Open World PvP styled MMORPG. They're definitely out there; Darkfall, Mortal Online, EVE, hell even Oldschool Runescape, but there's one thing about them, they're all either old or clunky / graphically terrible. Sure there are some others coming out soon like The Repopulation, but that one looks even worse, in regards to clunkyness, than some of the currently released hardcore MMOs. Truth is, no AAA company is going to invest enough money into a hardcore styled MMORPG due to the following scenario:
Lucy buys WoW Killer Suck My Pee Pee 2.0. Lucy loves WoW Killer Suck My Pee Pee 2.0. One day, Lucy is mining some pixels when all of a sudden, she gets shanked in the back by Lord Booty Acquirer, losing all of her precious items that she worked very long and hard for. Lucy now hates WoW Killer Suck My Pee Pee 2.0 and will never resubscribe again.
Lucy is what a lot of us would call a mainstream gamer. Mainstream gamers don't like hardcore elements unless it is in their favor.
Not an attack guys but I am looking at some of the new games coming out and this caught my eye due to having a pvp server for those of us that enjoy full world pvp.
The concern I have and question is what penatly do you suffer for losing in pvp? I realize that unfortunately this is not a drop all your loot when you die like UO, darkfall etc but if there is no penalty and reward for pvp then why even do it?
Will this be another "die and wait a few seconds to get back into battle, no harm done" or will there be some form of real loss and gain making it meaningful pvp?
you have quite a skewed view on "meaningful pvp". you dont have to loose all the loot on you in order for pvp to have a purpose. games that contain an overly punishing pvp system tend to push people away from pvp. no one wants to constantly be going to banks and dropping all their gold and gear into them just to protect their investment of time in the game. i shouldnt say "no one", i should say the mass majority. when you make a game you steer it toward the majority, not the minority.
to me, meaningful pvp is the concept of when i kill someone they have to run back to their body, they know they lost the fight, and they took durability loss and lost time from questing or what ever they may have been doing when i killed them. pvp should not be so punishing that it causes people to constantly try to flee any fight they dont have the upperhand in. pvp should simply cause you to look over your shoulder and key an eye out. while corpse camping is the ultimate F you to someone, causing them to either spirit rez at a penalty or continue to try to get away. that is meaningful pvp. blizzard had the right idea when they made vanilla, problem is they killed world pvp with flying mounts.
if you would like to constantly worry about losing your loot and gear, go play another game. most people steer clear of games like that for a reason, too much risk for not enough reward.
Open world PvP without any rewards for actually PvPing is pointless.
"but what about fun!" you say. Well a lot of people derived fun from killing people in the wild and getting something forit. Only a few people can go around all day killing players for no reason at all. It might hold up for a month or two, but then what? Then you look for something else, some sort of meaningfull progression or reward and modern PvP games fail at this completely.
Real PvP and real open world dynamic PvP gameplay comes from systems like in EVE where if a player dies, the killer gets a chance to pick something new and shiny off his corpse. After a huge battle between armies; TO THE VICTOR GOES THE SPOILS - a concept completely alien to a lot of developers these days it seems. This sort of system creates player made factions that thrive on piracy and murder and player made factions that thrive on killing the pirates and murderers. It creates unique player created content. Suddenly the players are creating their own organizations and making their own goals. Suddenly there are player territories and politics and a metagame and people who give a damn about the stuff going on in the world.
In EVE it doesn't matter much to the individual that you lose your stuff upon death because it's easy to get new stuff unless you conciously equipped yourself with really rare and expensive gear before the battle - in which case you'll perform better but the cost will be higher if you die. It can be really exciting to go over to your enemies shattered remains and see if you get some standard equipment or some truly amazing stuff that almost no one else has. It's like opening a present after a grueling battle
EVE also offers safe zones for people who want to not deal with ganking but these zones aren't a fraction as rewarding or profitable as the lawless zones. Still, you can make a living in EVE without ever trying to kill anyone
Now I've just gone off topic here lol. I just love everything in EVE except the gameplay... EVE just did so many things right. It's a crying shame developers aren't emulating the systems EVE has perfected and offer us a similiar game with better gameplay. I'd never stop playing THAT game
im sorry, but i am really struggling with the fun concept of Eve. what is the point of getting really good "shiny" rare epic items, if you are too scared of losing them to ever take them into battle?
doesnt that evaporate the purpose of an RPG, the whole progression, getting better over time concept. it just sounds like a alot of hoarding shinys in your bank and never taking them out for fear of getting pirated. which to most people sounds terrible.
Comments
Ok so to add on the gambling analogy as it relates to "meaningful pvp".. I thought this was a brilliant of why it's important to have such a mechanic.
When I play golf, it adds to the experience to play for a little money, even if it's something like a dollar a hole. Everything just means more while the most you could really lose is 18 bucks (18 holes). Same goes for the Office Fantasy football league with a nominal entry fee.. It may not be a lot, but people act a lot differently when there's a tangible value at stake. Now before people tell me about how video games are for fun and should not have this aspect, I'm not advocating the hardcore full loot which is what a lot of people equate "meaningful pvp" to.
If Wildstar were to have competitive ladders in Arena's, or battleground style pvp, it could go a long way to attracting players from the ever growing populations of LoL or DOTA 2.
My overall point is that if they just make PvE based raids and questing the focus of this game without really engaging the pvp crowd, then it's just going to be another WoW clone that will go free to play with a cash shop in the first year. That's not what I want, and would rather debate constructive implementations that debating the theory of whether meaningful pvp needs to be in a game for it to have a justifiable reason to subscribe monthly.
And that is why Warplots seem so good to me. Although for the sake of argument, it is the only punishment you will see across all of the other PvP modes though, which I'm fine with. BGs will be for those who want to easily level and gear through PvP primarily, Arenas will be for those who care about rankings, climbing ranks, and getting special arena gear, and Warplots are for the end-game, large group based PvP fans who want more of a siege/be sieged mode with chances of gaining the highest PvP gear in the game.
I for one am very excited for the PvP in this game, it's the PvE that I'm not certain of yet until they open up higher than level 36 content.
There are some out there that play games to relax and have fun and not be ganked and griefed. Granted there seem to be more games akin to WoW and GW2 with less strict punishment to PvP, but that's variety.
Just because I may like less PvP categorizes me a kid?! Seriously?
I assuming it is an age reference based on the fact that UO was out a long while back and anyone to young to have played it would be a kid in comparison to those of us that did. I do not think it was a reference to you chosen style of pvp.
I too seek a more "hardcore" Open World PvP styled MMORPG. They're definitely out there; Darkfall, Mortal Online, EVE, hell even Oldschool Runescape, but there's one thing about them, they're all either old or clunky / graphically terrible. Sure there are some others coming out soon like The Repopulation, but that one looks even worse, in regards to clunkyness, than some of the currently released hardcore MMOs. Truth is, no AAA company is going to invest enough money into a hardcore styled MMORPG due to the following scenario:
Lucy buys WoW Killer Suck My Pee Pee 2.0. Lucy loves WoW Killer Suck My Pee Pee 2.0. One day, Lucy is mining some pixels when all of a sudden, she gets shanked in the back by Lord Booty Acquirer, losing all of her precious items that she worked very long and hard for. Lucy now hates WoW Killer Suck My Pee Pee 2.0 and will never resubscribe again.
Lucy is what a lot of us would call a mainstream gamer. Mainstream gamers don't like hardcore elements unless it is in their favor.
C:\Users\FF\Desktop\spin move.gif
When I was growing up, when you don't get #1 , you lose, you learn to do better next time, so that you aren't a loser anymore. So you work harder and study longer and strive to reach that #1 spot.
Nowadays, when you lose you are praised for trying, you get a 5th place medal, you get rewarded with trophies that has no meaning other than to ease your pain. So you don't try harder or study longer.
This is the generation of everyone is a winner and no one is a loser.
That mentality is what developers are trying to cater to now.
So meaningful PVP, will never exist in Themepark MMO, nor will Meaningful Gears, Meaningful Quests
I remember the times when PVP Gear would only be obtained by the dedicated and skillful players, but nowadays, its everyone that PVP can get it, regardless if you just lost 100 games , because you are rewarded for losing as well. Its all about time sinks now, winning in Instanced PVP has no meaning other than getting the same gear everyone gets eventually.
I am still waiting on Games that will not be afraid to praise the winners and punish the losers.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
For me, pvp is about anger, frustration, revenge, greed, bullying etc.
There is no meaning greater than these basic emotions for pvp.
I don't understand when people refer to a certain framework for meaningful pvp.
Meaningful pvp for me is untamed, spontaneous and unpredictable. It doesn't need no framework at all. It needs to be that annoying part of the game we have to live with.
I would love it if they introduce this type of pvp in Wildstar. I'm not following the game so much, even though I am charmed from what I saw.
Fixed.
LOL.. Thank you for this.
you have quite a skewed view on "meaningful pvp". you dont have to loose all the loot on you in order for pvp to have a purpose. games that contain an overly punishing pvp system tend to push people away from pvp. no one wants to constantly be going to banks and dropping all their gold and gear into them just to protect their investment of time in the game. i shouldnt say "no one", i should say the mass majority. when you make a game you steer it toward the majority, not the minority.
to me, meaningful pvp is the concept of when i kill someone they have to run back to their body, they know they lost the fight, and they took durability loss and lost time from questing or what ever they may have been doing when i killed them. pvp should not be so punishing that it causes people to constantly try to flee any fight they dont have the upperhand in. pvp should simply cause you to look over your shoulder and key an eye out. while corpse camping is the ultimate F you to someone, causing them to either spirit rez at a penalty or continue to try to get away. that is meaningful pvp. blizzard had the right idea when they made vanilla, problem is they killed world pvp with flying mounts.
if you would like to constantly worry about losing your loot and gear, go play another game. most people steer clear of games like that for a reason, too much risk for not enough reward.
Open world PvP without any rewards for actually PvPing is pointless.
"but what about fun!" you say. Well a lot of people derived fun from killing people in the wild and getting something for it. Only a few people can go around all day killing players for no reason at all. It might hold up for a month or two, but then what? Then you look for something else, some sort of meaningfull progression or reward and modern PvP games fail at this completely.
Real PvP and real open world dynamic PvP gameplay comes from systems like in EVE where if a player dies, the killer gets a chance to pick something new and shiny off his corpse. After a huge battle between armies; TO THE VICTOR GOES THE SPOILS - a concept completely alien to a lot of developers these days it seems. This sort of system creates player made factions that thrive on piracy and murder and player made factions that thrive on killing the pirates and murderers. It creates unique player created content. Suddenly the players are creating their own organizations and making their own goals. Suddenly there are player territories and politics and a metagame and people who give a damn about the stuff going on in the world.
In EVE it doesn't matter much to the individual that you lose your stuff upon death because it's easy to get new stuff unless you conciously equipped yourself with really rare and expensive gear before the battle - in which case you'll perform better but the cost will be higher if you die. It can be really exciting to go over to your enemies shattered remains and see if you get some standard equipment or some truly amazing stuff that almost no one else has. It's like opening a present after a grueling battle
EVE also offers safe zones for people who want to not deal with ganking but these zones aren't a fraction as rewarding or profitable as the lawless zones. Still, you can make a living in EVE without ever trying to kill anyone
Now I've just gone off topic here lol. I just love everything in EVE except the gameplay... EVE just did so many things right. It's a crying shame developers aren't emulating the systems EVE has perfected and offer us a similiar game with better gameplay. I'd never stop playing THAT game
im sorry, but i am really struggling with the fun concept of Eve. what is the point of getting really good "shiny" rare epic items, if you are too scared of losing them to ever take them into battle?
doesnt that evaporate the purpose of an RPG, the whole progression, getting better over time concept. it just sounds like a alot of hoarding shinys in your bank and never taking them out for fear of getting pirated. which to most people sounds terrible.