Is MMO LvL Progressions too fast?

Alminie

I wanted to ask everyone here a question, do you feel MMO's these days, and the Progression is too fast?

Like when you think about it, gear you earn at say lvl 20, in the average mmo you out lvl in maybe and hour or less.

Does anyone else feel that's a bit fast? and that it hurts the mmo's market, by out lvl things so fast that you don't bother buying gear off the market from lvls 1 - max lvl.

 

Also making crafting in most mmos barely worth while, to ether make money by selling your goods, or to just make gear for your self, Since it takes almost as long to get materials to make gear as it takes to out lvl that gear you make.

Before you know it, you have to lvl your crafting more to be able to make gear for your self again, all in a few hours

because you end up progressing so fast.

 

Wouldn't slower progression benefit everyone?

Gamers wouldn't hit the end game brickwall as fast, and feel there was nothing left to do before devs could get out more content out.

The market would be more stable ppl would buy more things off the market from other players.

 

Crafting would be more meaningful.

 

 

whats your thoughts?

 

is mmo progressions too fast?

should mmo lvling be slower?

is it fine the way it is?

feel free to discuss your thoughts!

goboygo

Yes its too fast because developers are still using a "bar" to measure player progression and people want the bar to move faster, so the developers do just that.  A leveling system like Syrim , Darkfall or Mortal Online is far more interesting.  People will spend a year developing their character and not even mind.

Actually the way Darkfall handles mob drops is the best I've seen as well.  Mobs don't drop gear they drop materials and broken gear pieces used in salvaging and crafting.

Throw in the occasional epic gear drop as well and it keeps it interesting.  So skill gains, and crafting for gear in my opinion is the only way to fly.  Everything else is just like watching a clock.

Speely

When the content provided isn't engaging enough to hold player attention, one solution is providing a way for players to move easily past said content so that the progression itself, rather than the world being progressed through, becomes the primary focus. This is especially advantageous for companies that want to encourage rapid content consumption for the purposes of charging for new content. Providing content that is designed to be lived in and enjoyed on its own merits provides little encouragement for this playstyle and is thus not as viable in a primarily f2p model.

Iczer

Yes I think so. Its also a personal preference as to how you perceive "too fast". I personally enjoy things taking a good while to develop and progress. I do not mind putting in a lot of effort to get the character the way I want. This long term style lends itself more to skill based progression vs level based progression though. I don't think the current heavy quest focus of a lot of MMO's would translate well if players had to spend exuberant amounts of time running quests ad nauseam to progress through each level.

DamonVile

If your objective is to keep people in your game for as long as possible having content you only do once then move on is a waste of space. As long as games put so much focus on one time events they'll always suffer being a drive through for a large part of the gamer population.

Alminie

Originally posted by DamonVile
If your objective is to keep people in your game for as long as possible having content you only do once then move on is a waste of space. As long as games put so much focus on one time events they'll always suffer being a drive through for a large part of the gamer population.

yeah I totally agree with you there Damonvile, we need games with content that we should be able to go thru more then a few times. 

Xthos

I say yes, but that is what they were doing, they wanted you to level to max by the time you did the content once or very close to it.  The developers of Rift (I think TOR also, but not 100%) stated that before it released.  So design like that is why many mmos are eaten through and discarded by many.

 

I know people don't want to grind either, but think their should be a middle ground or some kind of compromise that does something to slow it down.  I think it is way too fast anymore.

 

That is part of my complaint about depth, if I hit max level, and their are only daily quests lists to do, and it feels like a checklist, then you log out, kind of turns me off.  If I have to put more time/work into it, and the stuff I get seems to matter more, be it crafting or loot, and things are harder to achieve...I am more invested and care more.

Slukjan

Yes. the speed of leveling is so fast you outgrow your gear instantly.  i remember in EQ i would have a level 25 wizard and I'd be buying and browsing gear in EC tunnel because the gear lasted a long time, as it took a long time to level.  and lots of time when i out level my gear i could sell or trade it to other players because it wasnt BOP.  it made the economy matter and gear maintained its value. i really miss that. 

LittleBoot

Personally I think that most modern mmo's are more suited to getting rid of traditional levels entirely and having instead: -

• small incremental improvements (rather than the huge stat increases we now have)
• and other goals such as exploration, politics, crafting, building, discovering elite skills/ aesthetic items etc  (yes I know these are levels by another name).  

This would allow the whole of the map to be usable by all the players all of the time and avoid dead low level zones or the use of rather contrived tools like mentoring or arbitrarily changing someone's level to suit the zone.   The arbitrary changing of levels (as in GW2) to me is absurd... why bother having levels in the first place if you just snatch them away from people when they revisit an earlier area; it is a moronic system.      

 

But if a game does have traditional levels then vanilla wow had the rate of advancement about right imo.  Every game since then (inc post vanilla wow) has been too fast to really give the experience of a journey and an achievement.    

Reklaw

Originally posted by Alminie

I wanted to ask everyone here a question, do you feel MMO's these days, and the Progression is too fast?

Yes and no as it also depends on a persons playstyle. If a player let's the game lead him/her then yes it's far to fast. If the player actually find's his/her own niche within the game than it could be a no.

Like when you think about it, gear you earn at say lvl 20, in the average mmo you out lvl in maybe and hour or less.

Does anyone else feel that's a bit fast? and that it hurts the mmo's market, by out lvl things so fast that you don't bother buying gear off the market from lvls 1 - max lvl.

 

Also making crafting in most mmos barely worth while, to ether make money by selling your goods, or to just make gear for your self, Since it takes almost as long to get materials to make gear as it takes to out lvl that gear you make.

Before you know it, you have to lvl your crafting more to be able to make gear for your self again, all in a few hours

because you end up progressing so fast.

Since 3 months I stopped letting themepark games lead me, my progression slowed down allot and made new crafted gear actuall and the overall game allot more fun to me.

 

Wouldn't slower progression benefit everyone?

Gamers wouldn't hit the end game brickwall as fast, and feel there was nothing left to do before devs could get out more content out.

The market would be more stable ppl would buy more things off the market from other players.

 

Crafting would be more meaningful.

 

 

whats your thoughts?

 

is mmo progressions too fast?

should mmo lvling be slower?

is it fine the way it is?

feel free to discuss your thoughts!

Overall it all depends on as said someone's playstyle.

 

Xthos

Originally posted by Slukjan
Yes. the speed of leveling is so fast you outgrow your gear instantly.  i remember in EQ i would have a level 25 wizard and I'd be buying and browsing gear in EC tunnel because the gear lasted a long time, as it took a long time to level.  and lots of time when i out level my gear i could sell or trade it to other players because it wasnt BOP.  it made the economy matter and gear maintained its value. i really miss that. 

 Yeah, some people don't lie it because of the twinking, but I agree, in a lot of mmos, I am replacing stuff I just got, and it makes me not even really care until I am near or at max level, because I know I won't have it long, if it is super rare or not.

One of my biggest disappointments recently was ToR crafting, maxed skill in one session, I compared that to what it took to max my crafting in Vanguard and it felt really shallow and meaningless. 

Esidar

It's not only about leveling but also amount of content. Question is, how fast you want to see everything in the game. Your leveling speed is scaled to that time.

There are two solutions to this:

1. allow people to see everything regardless of their level. Then the gameplay must reuse that content many times.
2. create artifically many progress bars

At2. Skill based games are doing quite good job with this. In those games, you can excell at one thing, thus consume high level content in one area, yet still there can be another high "level" content that will require another effort. For example Runescape can add new skills without touching/ruining previous high level content.

Also WoW Vanilla had 2nd solution. E.g you were progressing your gear toward one set of instances, then you hit the "cap" (meaining you saw "all" the high level content), and then you could start progressing in other instances. For example you had high level DMG gear that was useless in dungeons that needed high Ice/Fire resistance. So you've seen high level content (and being happy with that) yet you also could reach alternative high level content with another extra efford. That was changed in later expansions with flat progress in all areas/content (doesn't matter which content you excell at, they're all the same).

That's being said: leveling in new games is too fast because it's designed around flat and linear progress.

Shadanwolf

Of course it is. But there are vocal players on both sides of this too fast too slow coin.

Zapzap

Has there been a MMO that has released in the last 5 years where one could not get to max level within 2 days of release?

AoC 1-2 days to get to max, Rift 2 days played to max, ToR 1-2 days played to max, GW21-2 days played to max.  Pretty much all modern MMos are a 2-3 day race to get to max.

LittleBoot

Originally posted by Zapzap

Has there been a MMO that has released in the last 5 years where one could not get to max level within 2 days of release?

AoC 1-2 days to get to max, Rift 2 days played to max, ToR 1-2 days played to max, GW21-2 days played to max.  Pretty much all modern MMos are a 2-3 day race to get to max.

For a very casual player like me it is more like 1 month; but given the limited time I put in 1 month is vastly too quick.  I have spent significantly longer playing many single player games (those with replay value anyway).  

CrazKanuk

Is a piece of string long? 

 

It's a bit of a subjective topic. One developer could make a game with 1000 levels, but the content is the same length as one who only offers 10 levels, so your progression is inherently "faster" 

 

The speed of progression shouldn't even be a factor. I should be able to start at max level and still be engaged. Why? Because if I'm at max level and I'm not engaged then the developer loses me. Granted, some people are just grinders and want to grind out max level characters on every game they can. There is another crowed though. This more important crowd are those that you've actually engaged! You've convinced them that your content is so important that they should invest hundreds of hours in it, and hopefully hundreds of dollars. 

 

The cost to acquire and build this "crowd" is HUGE! You can't just make a game and people will just play it and love it because it's there. You've got to market it! On top of that, though, you've got to have engaging content. The more engaging content you can provide, the longer you can maintain those customers. 

 

I think that this idea is lost on MANY developers, though. I think they honestly believe that they can capitalize on the grinders and screw the rest. You'll see this evident in most cash shops with experience potions, etc. This is the quick buck, and it is a profitable enough model that people adopt it as the best way to do things. This way, their game fizzles out unspectacularly after a year or so without having to really maintain it or add new content. 

 

So I don't really think that the speed of progression has much to do with anything. It's probably only a means of engaging players by rewarding them on an hourly basis with some sort of achievement, right? If I had to grind out a level for 20 hours I don't think a game like that would last too long. There isn't enough reward. 

 

Before the hate mail flies about the "old days" yeah, I get that level progression was slower back in "the day" but the content was also so, SO much more engaging, whether it be that it was still all new or whether it be that there was actually more innovation going on back then then there is now, I don't know. Either way, the idea of progression is merely a means of rewarding a player and keeping them engaged, trying to stop them from turning your game off. It's when you get to the end to find that the journey was fruitless that really pisses me off. 

SavageHorizon

Originally posted by Slukjan
Yes. the speed of leveling is so fast you outgrow your gear instantly.  i remember in EQ i would have a level 25 wizard and I'd be buying and browsing gear in EC tunnel because the gear lasted a long time, as it took a long time to level.  and lots of time when i out level my gear i could sell or trade it to other players because it wasnt BOP.  it made the economy matter and gear maintained its value. i really miss that. 

I remember lol but i also play Vanguard which doesn't take as long as EQ but compared to the fed-x mmo released in the last 5 years it take ages. If you level diplomacy and adventuring then you are talking months to reach top level.

Vanguard also has an xp slider which lets you turn off xp.

 

VikingGamer

I think it would depend on the structure of the game. Time and again in a game like wow people say "the real game doesn't start until you get to max level." If that really is the case then the devs should embrace it and make the leveling fast. If your leveling game is really just an extended class tutorial then why not actually treat it that way. Consider the old GW. Only had 20 levels. leveling really wasn't the point. You were only though a fraction of the game by the time you hit 20. Exploring the maps and gaining new skills was more the point.

At the other end of the spectrum would be a game like Lineage 2 before they went past lvl 85. I knew people in that game that had played for years and still were not at level cap. Seriously, after 5 years people were still lvl 81 and 82. it was crazy. But the difference was that you didn't need to be capped to play the end game. End game for L2 really started at lvl 76 and even before that you could get into the territory wars and have fun. And you could get up to lvl 76 within 3 or 4 month. Less if you really worked it. So that wasn't too much worse than getting to cap in vanilla wow. I viewed the progression in that game as hitting 76 being similar to hitting cap in wow with quest greens and blues. Hitting 80 and getting S80 gear was like being in raid ready purples and getting S84 gear was like having best in slot gear in wow.

The point is, both had progression. Just one based it more on gear gained at level cap and the other was based more on working though the last 10 levels.

I think the problem has been for wow is that some people play it for the leveling game and others play it for the endgame. In that regard it is really two separate games. Level up to cap, then start and alt or blaze thought the levels just to get to the "real game." This is why I don't think it is a big deal to let people boost up to 90 and then finish the last 10 levels and be at end game. If that is how they are choosing to play it then fine. Those who want to play the game for the leveling obviously wont do that.

So should the leveling be slower? In a game like L2? Yes. In GW? No. In WoW? I could go either way.

AlBQuirky

Most definitely.

The formula seems to be have a base of very fast leveling curve to begin with. Add to that XP boost potions. Then add in "special" bonus XP zones. Now add every action a player does give out XP and you have the outrageous (to me) leveling speed of today's MMOs.

BUT... Since so many players today seem to be so time constrained and have this insatiable need to feel their time is productive, what can a company do?

gkb3469

In my opinion i prefer no levels and skill based only. The more you use it the stronger you get with said skill. 

Kyleran

If you are trying to create a virtual world for players to live in, then yes, progression is way too fast IMO, and the action should be during the journey, and not part of some "endgame" players are constantly trying to reach.

However most MMO's are built to be games these days, meant for in and out light entertainment, and the real game is at the end so progression curves are seen as an annoyance by the players who enjoy this.

 

azarhal

Going by some stuff I read online recently (aka people QQing about level progression speed). Some players want fast progression so they can start to do what they are interested in (Raiding, PvP, crafting, etc). They are not that much interested in the MMORPG, only a little fraction of the game get all their attention.

MMORPG have been more and more designed to please these type of players, dropping most of the RPG and living world aspects over time.

Saying that, I would prefer longer progression speed as long as there is meaningful content to do while leveling, Things like exploration (random caves, dungeons, new towns, vista, etc), crafting, harvesting, random activities (fishing, housing, etc) and quests (long epic quests would have my preference). Unfortunately, most MMO get shallow level content, especially in the exploration part. Achievement check list isn't exploration in my book.

What I want is for each of the levels to feel like an adventure in itself and not just a step toward max level.

 

jimmywolf

Originally posted by gkb3469
In my opinion i prefer no levels and skill based only. The more you use it the stronger you get with said skill. 

i like that idea an gear could require certain level skills too use, more rare epic gear could have close same stats but lower skill require too equip, so people want it. or similar ideas like that would be fun

 

 

main issue with that would be if no levels is be very easy too kill noobs if their was pvp as their no level  barrier

Yalexy

I want as little vertical progression as possible and as much horizontal progression as possible.

I'd actually say: Get rid of levels alltogether!

A MMORPG shouldn't be a race to endcontent as most MMOs are, but actually living worlds in which you can RP.

EvE Online, allthough having alot of skill-progression is a goood example for a good MMO in that regard, as you can actually take part in the game right from day one. And even if you don't make a huge impact at the beginning in your T1-frigate, you're still valuable.

Also, get rid of the item-grind and have all items crafted.

Dungeons and raids shouldn't be about running through to get your gear, but they should be about fun and hard encounters.

Unfortunately there's not that much of interesting MMOs on the radar currently besides maybe Pathfinder Online, and I'll probably end up running through Wildstar for a few month until I beat the whole content. Then it's waiting again.

SavageHorizon

Originally posted by Yalexy

I want as little vertical progression as possible and as much horizontal progression as possible.

I'd actually say: Get rid of levels alltogether!

A MMORPG shouldn't be a race to endcontent as most MMOs are, but actually living worlds in which you can RP.

EvE Online, allthough having alot of skill-progression is a goood example for a good MMO in that regard, as you can actually take part in the game right from day one. And even if you don't make a huge impact at the beginning in your T1-frigate, you're still valuable.

Also, get rid of the item-grind and have all items crafted.

Dungeons and raids shouldn't be about running through to get your gear, but they should be about fun and hard encounters.

Unfortunately there's not that much of interesting MMOs on the radar currently besides maybe Pathfinder Online, and I'll probably end up running through Wildstar for a few month until I beat the whole content. Then it's waiting again.

Age Of Wushu is similar to EvE and is a modern mmo, if the game had been made by western devs it would be getting all the praise. 

Age Of  Wulin does not have the issues that Wushu has, the game has some innovative features as well.

Mahavishnu

One contradiction I will never understand - the same people always claim on these forums:

1. Leveling is too easy, it should take more time, mobs should be more dangerous, etc.

2. Rush through the leveling process as fast as possible, because endgame raiding is the one and only important thing to do.

 

I would just completely remove leveling at all - this would have several advantages:

1. Difficult content stays difficult forever, because you cannot "outlevel" it.
2. It is fun to explore the whole world, because there are no certain areas for specific levels.
3. New players can join their friends imediately, and do not have to progress lonely through leveling content.
4. Zones would not get empty, because all zones have something for all players.
5. Developers can add new content depending on story, terrain, player interest, without any bounderies caused by levels.

Of course there should be content, that is very challenging. And you can only overcome it, if you know your class and group play really well. So that after some playing time some players would say:"ok there is this difficult dungeon, we should try, we will die a lot of times, but want a challenge and I know a friend, who can tell us what we have to do". That would be some kind of a natural Progression of the actual players and their playing skills.

 

And yes, step 2 for me would be the removal of gear-progression. Because this is the worst thing in MMOs. But I would make things like item-decay to make crafting more important.