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Feel like I'm losing a life long hobby. It sucks. (MMO's)
Spector88
Member UncommonPosts: 112
I have a similar issue as this guy. http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/400930/Anyone-else-not-excited-for-any-MMO.html
I've written about my favorite MMO Asheron's Call here: http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/18/view/forums/post/6090689/thread/367166#6090689
I'm 25 years old. I've been playing MMORPG's since 1996. I grew up playing online games like EQ, Asheron's Call, DAoC, The Realm, indie games like Well of Souls... ARPG's like Diablo II, and LoD.
I have been trying to pin point the problem for over a year now. I think there is three major problems 1) Myself: MMO's and Online RPG's have become somewhat 'I've done this before feeling. 2) The games are now designed to sell boxes, and pressured by developers and not build to be a long term game (6 months+) 3) Games are no longer being designed uniquely and are instead sticking with already done content and methods AKA 'Cloning' ideas.
I think a vast majority of LONG time MMO players or 'older school' people are not as happy with the games, and I think we get upset time after time because we just haven't gotten used to the fact that MMO's are not being designed to have content and continue to be played for 6+ months on average, or atleast it appears. They want their box sales, play for a couple months til you burn out, and come back for a 40$ expansion a year later.
Our hardware has evolved, 10 years ago we had huge open worlds, non-instanced dungeons, open world active PvP, dynamic crafting, player housing, housing decoration, weapon crafting, exploration, giant 100 of miles wide continents, and yet.. Here we are 2013.. Games have shrunken map wise, they have become linear, there is less exploration than ever. And any game that capures some type of mind blowing level of one category seems to be severely lacking in the others.
I've made some of the best friends of my life and has some of my best memories playing MMO's. People I've kept in touch with for 5-10+ years, text, facebook, etc. all through MMO's. I've been able to escape sports, work, life and relax in a movie that I write my own plot to.
Games aren't being made for gamers by gamers anymore. Like everything in the world it is all about the dollar now. There is only two quality games right now I enjoy.. Path of Exile, and League of Legends, both companies give a completely free good product and make money off non-pay to win stuff. I despised Guild Wars 2, I despised how easy and dumbed now World of Warcraft has become, and these linear worlds I keep seeing. WHY CAN'T I GO OVER THE MOUNTAIN? WHY CAN'T I STUMBLE ACROSS SOME RANDOM DUNGEON NONE OF MY FRIENDS HAVE VENTURED OUT FAR ENOUGH TO SEE. Why can't I find 'my own hidden' hunting spots. Why are we getting smaller? easier? slower? less skills? less housing, creativity modification, than we did in 2005?
I am speaking in generalities, but facts show other than World of Warcraft there isn't really any game that maintains a majority of subs or even remotely close after release. There also hasnt been any games lately that gains even more traction 3-4 months after. They all lose and lose big 3-4 months in.
Some games I'm seeing are absolutely atrocious. I mean yes, the graphics are nice but when you compare the content / game size to an EQ, AC, or something its like, they took 10% of a true MMO and then put a shiny wrapper on it and charged 29.99 for it. I just feel like the market has been flooded with money grabs and the genre is not being pushed to the limit.
I'm not excited for EQNext because its not even remotely 'EQ' its a EQ story line with a completely different game many came to know and wanted. Maybe it will be good? Or maybe it will be the same as everything else. I just don't see anything changing on the horizon and I'm tired of coming home and being disappointed.
Time to go straight console gaming I guess.
If you want to see what my dream MMO would seem like : http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/6096476/thread/401215#6096476
Comments
Meridian 59 released 1996. Ultima Online released 1997. Everquest released 1999. Hate to nitpick, but I don't think you were playing any MMORPG's in 1995, when you were 7 years old, and no MMORPG was out yet. Anyway, to the point, I think most gamers start to feel that way after a while and just need to take a break. Try some other game genres out then come back to MMO's later on.
I apologize it was 1996. AOL's The Realm Online came out in 1996. I was 8 years old, and I played it almost every day until I was 12. You will have a hard time finding a human being on this earth that has atleast tried/played more ORPG/MMOs than me 60 years old or 3 years old.
Edit: btw, Realm is the longest running ORPG of all time, still has subs to this day and I THINK it came out before Meridian did.
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The Realm was launched in December 1996 for Windows PC[1] It was designed in the tradition of graphical MUDs,[2] before the popular usage of the terms "massively multiplayer" and "MMORPG".[3]
I had friends who played an hour a day of Gen 1 MMO's who over 6months to a year, reached end game-esqe territory, while best in slot items etc, required camping doesn't WoW require similar input or more for best in slot Heroic Mode gear?
I dont see how less decisions, less customization and less world to explore, less dungeons, less housing, less choice, less guild functionality is 'not knowing any better' yes you would have to SPLICE a few things from Gen1 games, but if you put the best of them together you have a game that isn't even close (besides WoW) to existing.
Yup, what is CoX short for ?
I feel in the same boat. Though I started a few years later than you in the mmo world.
I feel the problem of the day is risk. The cost of creating a mmo product (maybe even a video game product) is staggeringly high now. Investors are loathe to invest their money into innovative ideas that are unproven, because of the volatile risk involved in releasing a game that is subpar and having your money vanish, they stay to cloning concepts that have worked. It's really no different in any other entertainment industry. Look at how stagnant movies are/have been. There's no innovation or risk in spending millions in a non traditional genres, or something that hasn't already sold millions in books.
The cost involved to just create an mmo up to the standard we have today, will likely cost well over a hundred million and that will only end up with a similarly looking clone. To innovate beyond that, will likely take twice that, if not more. When adding in development time which is often spread over 2-5 years. From an investor's point of view it is usually a better option to invest the money into stocks, bonds, and other things that will give a consistent and nearly guaranteed return. Those that do invest into the MMO market want to speed their return on investment by trying to get it to market as fast as possible so they can make their initial investment back, then funnel some (but not all) profits back into the game to extend it's life until it becomes unprofitable.
I don't have any suggestions on how this mold can be truly broken. I really don't know. Part of me imagines it would take an investor willing to put up a billion dollars to a handpicked team without expecting any return on investment or creative control and being told to 'go'. How realistic is that?
We didn't know any better at the time because MMO's were brand new then. We had nothing to compare them to, no frame of reference. If you grew up in a rural town that had only one burger joint, you'd probably enjoy those burgers even if they tasted mediocre, because you'd have no other choice. Same with gen-1 mmo's, we did dumb things like sit in front of a screen for 8 hours straight camping a single mob, because we were so immersed in this new online experience. Once second gen MMO's like WoW came out, they threw out all the tedious junk that EQ1 had. They did away with the bad, kept the good, and expanded upon it. When i grew up playing Atari 2600, I thought it was the best thing since sliced bread. But playing those games now seems like a joke. Same with MMO's
What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot
ya i think we are revisiting some consistent complaints and questions here.
1. what happened to virtual worlds?
2. why has gaming seemingly gone backward while the technology has been moving forward?
"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
I won't debate on weather AC was any good,yes i played it but i do share the same feeling sort of.
I was not that interested in MMORPG's back in the day for the simple reason,i understood game design and knew it was far too tough to make a really good RPG game,it was always going to be lacking a lot of content that is needed to honestly call yourself a Triple A game.Triple A does NOT mean just being better than others,it means a product that if not for representing a "business" you would run around proud of your work.
I was drawn in by the initial phase of MMORPG's because i always liked rpg's and the thought of playing alongside others sounded really fun.I was not surprised,teh games lacked a lot of content i wanted to see but i was still able to have a lot of fun and "WISH" for something better as the years moved on.I am defintiley not a typical fanbois,i have moved from what i cal la quality game>quality game,i am not one who just stays with the FIRST or my fave of the past,i really do seek something BETTER and new.
I have seen glimpses of games doing some things better but then those same games do a lot else really bad,so this genre is really not improving at all,it has become VERY stagnant.Now every single dev game that pops up seems to be looking for ONE gimmick to market their game and right now that seems to be Voxels.Developers need to realize that yes you will always get some bored gamer's aboard but the serious gamer's that demand a Triple A product will not give your weak game the time o day.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
So what you're saying is that anyone who plays anything past first gen MMO's is a moron? Nice attitude you have there. You state that they would be lost in games like EQ. Well no shit. I played EQ and when I started I was clueless. The game was kinda simple but so many little things to know and remember. I use EQ because it was my first MMO and I loved it. I miss all the conversations I used to have. Though to be honest, i had most of them while LFG or waiting for respawns at my current camp.Newer MMO's streamlined and reworked the way a lot of the systems worked to make them less obtuse and time consuming. This made them appealing to a larger audience. You and I are no longer the demographic for MMO's. They want a younger, larger audience with more time to play in the Skinner box. I agree the streamlining lead to a lot of poor choices for us but they don't care about us any longer. We are first gen players. We had our time, our way. Its the new generations turn. The games will be made for them. In closing, most modern MMO players could play any of the old games but why would they? They are literally not made for them.
I disagree with you whole-heartedly on this. Developers haven't become more lazy, games have become more complex and have much longer turnaround times.
If you asked for an Ultima Online today, and there was support to make it profitable, someone would make it. The problem is that there isn't!
The problem is that we're consumers and, even with games, we consume. We want more, we want it quickly and we want to be rewarded. Older MMOs offered less in the way of progression than what newer MMOs do. Now everything is about progression, because we're consumers.
This did exist in order MMOs, but it wasn't given to you. Now, though, some of these games advance you 3 or 4 levels even before you're done your first quest. Could you imagine telling someone, today, that in your game it's going to take about 72 hours to advance a level? Will never fly. Just look at the WoW Cataclysm content, they did some pretty amazing stuff in that update and then got lamb-basted because people didn't want to trudge through the content.
So, basically, what's the reward for the developer? I'm assuming that Cataclysm cost a ton of money, considering the updates to environment, etc, from starting zones all the way through, etc. but no love. In MoP they attempted to go back to an older-style reputation grind, they had immediate backlash and had to implement a means of curbing some of that grind.
So, no, the developers aren't lazy, it's the gamers, unfortunately. It's too bad, too, because I feel like the genre is at a standstill because of that single issue.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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Good thread, and I seem to come from a similar background as you, starting with MMO's around the same time period. They have been a large part of my life since I was a kid, and I pretty much agree with most of your points all around.
I do think EQNext is going to be something innovative and special though, but that's all I can say now
Clones like WildStar, FFXIV, RIFT, GW2, etc. Just don't do it for me anymore either.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
Have played: You name it
If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
The answers haven't changed.
1. All MMORPGs have virtual worlds. However, a living or dynamic virtual world isn't a major selling point. The game aspects are far more important as far as sales go.
2. Gaming hasn't gone backwards. It's moved forwards in a direction that a very small percentage of players do not want it to go.
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Edited for grammar
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Man, you're too young to be this crotchety.
Also, go ahead and play your console. All the new major MMO's coming out are getting ported over (and some of the old, including GW2 if you believe their old pressers).
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
-The MMO Forum Community
I have to agree with everything Forgrimm said. I started my "mmo" experience in MUDs and moved to Asheron's Call in '99. What was so awesome about the old school mmos was simply, it was something that really hadn't been done before. Each of the original mmos were all different and appealed to different types of gamers. The one thing, I feel, that many of the early adopters of the genre had in common was that we all wanted to game in a living, breathing world with other people.
The biggest hurdle we have faced is that when WoW became ultra successful, too many narrow visioned studios felt that they could replicate the process. Instead of getting varied mmo experiences, we were getting the same thing. Then when someone came along and did something different, the collective masses whined because it wasn't enough like WoW.
The reality is that studios can't win in the vitriolic environment that is the mmo fanbase. I'm surprised that anyone would even make a mmo in this day and age, because of how poor the community as a whole has become. Yes, we've been burned a numer of times as gamers the past decade, but we make new studios pay for the sins of others. More importantly, I feel the community suffers from "first time high" syndrome. I think we need to come to grips with the fact that the first high is usually the best high, and we need to stop chasing the dragon. We would be better served to judge each mmo on it's own merits and stop comparing them to our memories tainted by nostalgia.
I had fun in FF XIV: ARR for about a month. Am I bitter that I wound up not really liking the game? Nope. I have some fond memories for the short time I spent there. Same with LotRO. I have many great memories of playing AC1 and AC2, DAoC, CoX and DCUO. Each game had a unique experience for me, and I found enjoyment out of each game for what it was. I keep going back to WoW though, because it still has most of everything I look for in a mmo. I am looking forward to trying WildStar and EQN (both versions). I may ultimately find a new place to stay for a long while, or I might just wind up sticking it out with WoW again. The point is that I can have fun for the time I spend there, and when the game stops being fun, I'll take a break.
It's hard to not be a bitter mmo vet, but I try to keep an open mind when I see enough of what I like in a game to give it a fair shake.
Well its not only MMOs the dumbing down is happening everywhere, movies, music, art, etc because everything is chasing the dollar.
There is a famous saying: Nobody ever went broke producing mediocre product for the masses and another : Never underestimate human stupidity. As a business owner I am trying to follow these trends. Unfortunately, it gets depressing at times when you know that you could produce something much better but no point as not enough people could tell the difference. In terms of finance doing the bare minimum keeps your costs low and as long as its enough for the target audience ie the mid-level herd you are golden.
Personally i dont believe the problem are the devs or the investors as they are simply providing a service for profit.