Because you have convinced yourself that they are true? This is very evident in they way you - with no knowledge of the industry and a very biased view of both business models and players - present your views as fact. For example, your previous post is all personal assumption stated as fact for the sole purpose of contradicting another person's view and you began it with
"If you want reality it is this."
That you've convinced yourself that these uninformed opinions are fact is about the only explanation I can think of for why you would repeatedly post the things you do, which is why some may perceive that you are lying, because it's obvious you're not an idiot.
I wrote a section to give the OP hope, but I felt it necessarily to balance that with some reality. If you disagree with anything I said you are free to say why. From there being gambling lock boxes in every MMO within a couple of years to the majority now being P2W I stand by it.
I think it's common sense now that nothing will last forever, gaming from the past looks so quite old and quite cheezy when we play it today after playing new-gen games (go play skyrim, and then go play daggerfall and you see the difference). we all charish our old games because they are what made us influenced with mmo's. I always here old timers continue to stick with the old games of the past and never move until they "regain the old feeling of the past" on a new game, which sadly I don't think is going to happen because games these days are different. Today is the age of sandbox games, the removal of classes and traditional stats, a audience for casual players who play from time to time and don't play hardcorely like 40 hours per day like it's a job, the removal (or improved) death penetly system, Improvement of building anything in the world, etc. This is out era where we can now do whatever we want without much restrictions, instead of the age of complexity (sorry, you can't engage in this battle due to your bravery skill is below 45, you can't learn this skill cause your int is not 80, you have yet to learn the language of the demons to communicate with them, kill 500 demons and gain their demonic tomes to learn the language, etc).
Originally posted by Tibernicuspa Originally posted by lizardbonesOriginally posted by TibernicuspaOriginally posted by lizardbonesOriginally posted by TibernicuspaOriginally posted by GaendricOriginally posted by TibernicuspaThis. My interests didn't change, the genre did.It had to. Stagnant markets are not a good thing. The market wasn't stagnant. MMOs were growing bigger and pushing more innovative ideas every year. A new game was being created for someone all the time. The games were aimed at target audience, not scattershot products that please no one. They were growing steadily over the course of years, not sinking 3 months after launch. With investors demanding more return source? and also dev budgets skyrocketing like crazy aource? the market had to expand harshly and reach a much wider target audience. This fundamentally influences what the games look like. Basically, the world turned on, we didn't. Now we are a niche and have to accept niche products. Niche is what this genre has always been. Almost all the big AAA products fail, most don't even get higher numbers than the old niche products. Games that fill a niche tend to be the successful ones. You can't have 10 mass market games that appeal to everyone.They are out there. Maybe not as flashy as the big AAA titles, but more to our taste. They aren't, or we'd be playing them. There's a huge difference between niche products, and underfunded indie projects. The market is more stagnant than it ever has been. Only one type of MMO is being made by publishers, the AAA WoW clone. Innovation has been on the back back burner for almost 8 years now.
AoC, probably one of the weakest contenders started with 900k subs. As far as building over years, that's just not going to happen now. Wrong. Wrong so many times over. AoC started off with 900k, and then crashed so hard that two partner studios of Funcom's went bankrupt.Building for years is still possible, just look at Eve. You need the right kind of design to keep people playing long term, and that design, almost all the founders of the genre agree, is designing the game so that players generate their own content and socialize, which results in people forming bonds and sticking together longer. Building up slowly over time has nothing to do with retention. Flat out wrong. If people leave your game right away, they can't bring new players into the game who hadn't tried it yet. Eve released in 2003, a year before WoW. A time when games could build up slowly over time. That doesn't explain why it is STILL growing. Maybe that's how they had to before WoW released. The point is, Eve isn't a new game. If Eve released today, everyone who could know about the game would know about the game before it released, and all of those people would join the game when it released. They wouldn't wait years. That doesn't explain why it is STILL growing. Under your theory, everyone who might ever play a game plays it the day of launch. Which is just laughable. AoC, probably the weakest of the 'AAA' games still running reached a point that none of the 'old school' games ever got close to. It started with 900k subscribers. It has far fewer now, but there was no way it was going to have more. If it was actually a good game people wanted to play, it would have gotten more. There are more than 900k people in the world. I myself didn't play at launch because everyone said it sucked. And those 900k existed all in one month. Over the course of 6 years, sitting at 500k, that's a LOT more people overall playing and paying for EQ Please stop and think before your next post.
Again, present information that shows (a) building up slowly over time means there is actually more retention and (b) that there is some reason a game developer would build up players slowly over time, much less could, now.
I never said AoC was a good game. I didn't much like it myself. It's a good enough game that enough people played it to make enough money to bankroll an entire MMORPG.
It is no surprise to me that there are 900k people in the world. I'm sure there are people who would be amazed at that, but I'm not one of them. You cannot dazzle me with your facts.
EQ didn't sit at 500k players for six years. They hovered above 400k for six years, with a brief bump to 550k and then a very rapid decline. Almost as if the times were changing and people stopped playing one MMORPG because it was the only optional available.
You seem to be setting yourself up as some sort of authority, and even ignoring your slippery grasps of factual information, you're not. None of us are except the people who actually work in the industry and who have far more information than we do. The industry isn't moving away from a certain kind of game because that type of game makes more money but it's just 'meh' to develop. They are moving away from a certain kind of game because people stopped buying them. At least in the numbers that developers or publishers wanted players to buy the games.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by simsalabim77 So go do something else you enjoy and if you get the itch to play an MMO come back to the genre. Some of you guys have like this weird dependency on these games. It's perfectly normal to get bored of thing after immersing yourself in them for an entire decade. Move on and come back when it seems fun again. I'd swear some people are being held hostage and forced to play these games against their will with how despondent and bitter they are lol...
It's not a "weird dependency", it's a lack of things to do that we enjoy. I say "we" when I mean "me" and perhaps others share the same situation. (you see... I already left this for those that complain I think I am speaking for the masses... I am NOT, but I would be an idiot to think I am the only one in this situation and I acknowledge that in this post.)
Am I a fan of Sports? Not only no, but...no. Not interested in Football (either kind), not in tennis, not in hockey, no to rugby, only Baseball do I like a little bit and I can't stand to watch it because it's been corrupted with money...
Am I a fan of reading literature? Sure, but all the books I wanted to read I have read, and the new ones coming out now are written by People I think were born on a different planet or have a sexual obsession.
Am I a fan of say... Movies? nope. Cars? Nope. Am I a playboy? Never in my wildest dreams. Do I like to surf the Web, post on Facebook? Nope, I won't touch that meat market website. Twitter? Nope, no one can hold an intelligent conversation and do it with one liners.... the whole concept is flawed as far as I am concerned.
Camping? Sure if it's primitive camping with no boomboxes playing in the Tin Tipi (camping trailer) next to my camping site... has anyone here honestly tried to find a place in the real world where you can set up a camp site and NOT HEAR CARS/TRUCKS or SEE JETS IN THE SKY? There is no where to camp as I would wish to do so. When I go Camping I want to do it primitive and do it somewhere I am not reminded of the Human World I don't enjoy anymore.
Years ago there was a primitive camping and black powder "hobby" that sprang up from the Historical Re-enactment folks called the "Rendezvous Circuit", Camps set up with everyone in white canvas, buckskins, finger woven sashes, flintlock rifles, tomahawks, etc, that was fun and fulfilling, I loved it ... However... then 9/11 happened and the US Government started to watch us like a hawk because they thought we collectively were some kind of terrorist organization... that Hobby was done. Killed by fear.
I could go on but I won't.
I.... perhaps "we".... play MMOs because it is what we enjoy, not because we are obsessed or have a dependency. I really don't have an interest in anything else. I don't play console games, or RTS's, or FPS's, because I tried them and DON'T enjoy them like I do MMOs. "Go try another Genre" doesn't work for me.
I (we) play MMOs because so many other things we loved already got changed/corrupted/altered and we found MMOs as either our favorite Hobby or as a replacement for a Hobby we lost, and now MMOs are as well becoming changed/altered/corrupted as we see them, from our point of view.
Originally posted by Odinthedark1 To answer some obvious (Rhetorical?) questions mixed in there, games are being dumbed down anin jd becoming more linear because the mmo world has been gettin WAY more attention than in the past, meaning the average IQ and player potential has dropped drastically...this leads to smaller maps, simpler enemies and scripts, hub to hub questing, simple talent/skill systems, etc etc...you put people in everquest 1 or any other old sandbox now and a majority would have no idea what to do or where to start. The mmo genre is no longer niche, but has become mainstream...."The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few", give it a decade when people move onto other things and the mmo population declines a bit, then they can actually start to listen to the hardcore player requests because they will be the majority. Overall though, i'm in the same boat i've been pretty much off and on with WoW now, mainly playing LoL and other singleplayer games off of steam.
So what you're saying is that anyone who plays anything past first gen MMO's is a moron? Nice attitude you have there. You state that they would be lost in games like EQ. Well no shit. I played EQ and when I started I was clueless. The game was kinda simple but so many little things to know and remember. I use EQ because it was my first MMO and I loved it. I miss all the conversations I used to have. Though to be honest, i had most of them while LFG or waiting for respawns at my current camp. Newer MMO's streamlined and reworked the way a lot of the systems worked to make them less obtuse and time consuming. This made them appealing to a larger audience. You and I are no longer the demographic for MMO's. They want a younger, larger audience with more time to play in the Skinner box. I agree the streamlining lead to a lot of poor choices for us but they don't care about us any longer. We are first gen players. We had our time, our way. Its the new generations turn. The games will be made for them. In closing, most modern MMO players could play any of the old games but why would they? They are literally not made for them.
I agree, those who keep hankering for the, 'old days', really do lack perspective.
Either that of their lives really haven't changed much in 15 odd years which is rather tragic...
Well, observations like these have been posted for 10 years now and although it is all true and it suck, there is not much You can do about, less You got millions to invaste and the right people to make it happen. And even then, You will meet all the dilemmas when You have to choose between a hidden/locked feature or virtual world stuff that only a few will find, or making this other thing that is an improvement for everyone - The first is needed the create the magic and freedom we miss from real mmorps, the other is needed to keep players in the game.. Funny thing is neither will succeed without the other.
The virtual world era is over, now it is all abot directed stories and calculated experiences, but someday that will die out aswell, and something new will emerge using new tech..it will not be like the old mmorps but it may embrace some of the qualities.
on the same lvl as you man....every MMO seems alike...nothing has intrested me in the MMO genrea for years....untill my brother showed me The Devision...game looks revolutionary to MMO's....
I had this problem for a while. When it comes down to it, every MMO is fun if you have a consistent group of people to play with. Spend some time trying to coordinate RL friends and perhaps some long-time online friends in to a play schedule. Plenty of emulated older game servers and F2P games (rift comes to mind) that are a blast if you're playing with people you know.
I won't touch any of them without the friend-group being on though. Best of luck!
I'm 25 years old. I've been playing MMORPG's since 1995.
Meridian 59 released 1996. Ultima Online released 1997. Everquest released 1999. Hate to nitpick, but I don't think you were playing any MMORPG's in 1995, when you were 7 years old, and no MMORPG was out yet. Anyway, to the point, I think most gamers start to feel that way after a while and just need to take a break. Try some other game genres out then come back to MMO's later on.
I apologize it was 1996. AOL's The Realm Online came out in 1996. I was 8 years old, and I played it almost every day until I was 12. You will have a hard time finding a human being on this earth that has atleast tried/played more ORPG/MMOs than me 60 years old or 3 years old. except you are on a site filled with people like yourself? Most of us have been playing as long or longer... Not to stop you from tooting your own horn but you aren't special in this forum sir, and most of us aren't crying about not having a game to play, we just play games.
AND! While I'm at it, I hate that people act like 'mmo' is a genre.
IT ISNT!
Ask anyone who was there for the first 'MMO's. They weren't called that, they were just 'online' versions of their offline counterparts. What the industry has repeatedly tried to do is hilariously futile.
Edit: btw, Realm is the longest running ORPG of all time, still has subs to this day and I THINK it came out before Meridian did.
Thanks for making another post about how you are a bitter vet and you think you are the only one?
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Oh excuse me, last time I checked an MMO player from 1996 on had a different perspective than one who started with WoW or post WoW.
Last time I checked the AVERAGE player here was not playing ORPG's pre- 2000.
Originally with Realm and Meridian, etc it was a small thousands of people now it is MILLIONs of people who have touched MMO's and ORPGs.
There is a big difference between my perspective and that of the average PC gamer, I have LOTS of PC gaming friends, nothing wrong with them all good if not better than me at some things, but it doesnt mean they have the same perspective as me, someone who has spent their hobby hours since the beginning on ORPG's
I'd appreciate if it you got off my D a bit about it. I'm proud to say I've been around since the beginning, don't regret my time. Experience and perspective doesnt make you smarter or better than anyone. It just means I am pretty sure there isnt too many people around who have seen as much in the genre. Although HERE, MMORPG.com would be the place I would find those people.
Oh excuse me, last time I checked an MMO player from 1996 on had a different perspective than one who started with WoW or post WoW.
Last time I checked the AVERAGE player here was not playing ORPG's pre- 2000.
Originally with Realm and Meridian, etc it was a small thousands of people now it is MILLIONs of people who have touched MMO's and ORPGs.
There is a big difference between my perspective and that of the average PC gamer, I have LOTS of PC gaming friends, nothing wrong with them all good if not better than me at some things, but it doesnt mean they have the same perspective as me, someone who has spent their hobby hours since the beginning on ORPG's
I'd appreciate if it you got off my D a bit about it. I'm proud to say I've been around since the beginning, don't regret my time. Experience and perspective doesnt make you smarter or better than anyone. It just means I am pretty sure there isnt too many people around who have seen as much in the genre. Although HERE, MMORPG.com would be the place I would find those people.
The one thing that you can depend on in life, is that someone else always is always one step up. I started playing computer games on mainframes, and my first commercial multiplayer computer games was Isle of Kesmai. With that I have you beat by almost a decade. Having said that, I have met people that have a longer history in gaming than I do.
It is true that games have changed over the years... but it is also true that they go in cycles. There is a LOT of good games coming out of indy developers today. Most consumers miss this, because they are jaded by the AAA mass market, and dont take the time to find the gems that are out there. Just wait a bit longer, and the AAA failures will clear out, clearing the way for the better games.
History tends to repeat itself, and if you just sit back and wait, you can see that what was once great, will be great again.
The actual gameplay in MMO's isn't fun...... Unless it's actually challenging. I mean, when you honestly sit down and look at the gameplay in MMO's, it basically amounts to a really bad FPS where you don't even get the fun or challenge of actually having to aim. You just click on things and hit 1...2...3...4...1...2... etc. It's as easy as can be without being completely automated. This has to either be counteracted by changing the gameplay to be fun in-and-of-itself or by making the game difficult.
What made the early MMO's so addictive was the fact that accomplishing things was a real challenge and felt very rewarding. Modern MMO's are still saddled with the same boring inherent game mechanics but they don't have the added difficulty to compensate for it anymore. This is what causes the inevitable realization in players that they're "not even having fun anymore".
When death is irrelevant, enemies don't pose a real challenge, advancement is so fast it feels arbitrary, you aren't rewarded for taking risks and everything you need to do is plotted out for you like a 'to do' list from a to z, there really isn't much substance left....
I actually played EQ from launch as a wood elf Ranger.
I was a very casual player and played the game for 10 years. I soloed through content until my late 30s which by this time Kunark had been released. I made my first Trueshot Longbow around level 19 after mastering fletching ( Skill 127 ). I made a shout out to Greater faydark at the time and got around 20 tells back congratualting me. I did the whole quest solo.
Soon two of my real life friends finally had the internet and managed to get a pc that could run EQ, early years were full of crashes and bugs. We then started to group and had a regular session on a Wednesday night where we would put aside four hours where we each took it in turns deciding what and where to go....this usually ended up being at least a 7 hour session.
While guilds were being built and raids were regular we carried oin playing in our small casual group and rather than concentrate on levelling we just simply played the game...you see in early EQ there was no point in levelling as it took so long, you just played. These were the best times i have ever had in a game.
We explored new area's where we litteraly had to sneak across whole zones and avoid every mob just to see what was on the other side. we had to avoid the mobs because if we got caught we would surely die, which meant we would more than likely lose all our equipment.... this just added a thrill to us as we were adventurers at heart. we wanted to explore, we wanted to plan excursions.
We went to visit Dalnirs Crypt. we had to plan what to take as it was a long journey... knowing that when we got there we would likely have the place to ourselves, at most another group. This was because of the journey to get there, it was a risk just travelling there. But the reward...oohh the reward! we made a fortune from that place....the mobs dropped Plat, can you believe it? they really did. Yes we could go to SolA and farm.. it would be safer, easier and close to a merchant. But if we went to Dalnirs we could make so much more, it was just dangerous.
Anyone that played EQ back in those days will know that you could play EQ and progress solo or casually, it just takes a different way to play ( as Kyerlan said ). We all started playing EQ that way.
Thats what i miss, a game where i can feel elation and dissapointment. Joy or heartache! thats why i am such a huge Everton fan haha! Risk v Reward is the most underated game mechanism and is surely missing in modern games.
Since EQ i have played too many to list. i am playing SWOR at the moment while also recently played Neverwinter, GW2, Wurm, War, Wow, just to name a few. I have never been challenged since EQ. I hjave never been rewarded in a game since EQ!
I think people vastly underrate people's disdain for the refined, streamlined and homogenous gameplay that's the hallmark of modern MMORPGs. People are too easy to equate things to rose colored glasses and nostalgia. People try to lump old school with tedium and dismissive based on mechanics like we don't just want the natural evolution of the MMORPGs not like WoW that were cut short by emulation. At the end of the day people different taste. I've played enough of UO emulators to know that's the type of game I like and given honest chance to themepark WoW clones to know that's what I don't like.
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal I think people vastly underrate people's disdain for the refined, streamlined and homogenous gameplay that's the hallmark of modern MMORPGs. People are too easy to equate things to rose colored glasses and nostalgia. People try to lump old school with tedium and dismissive based on mechanics like we don't just want the natural evolution of the MMORPGs not like WoW that were cut short by emulation. At the end of the day people different taste. I've played enough of UO emulators to know that's the type of game I like and given honest chance to themepark WoW clones to know that's what I don't like.
Stop posting things that are nearly impossible to argue against. I mean really. How in the world are we supposed to argue that you don't really like those things. Geez.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by Forgrimm You also have to realize that while games have evolved, us old-school players have aged and evolved as well. I started playing EQ back in '99 when I was 22 years old. I had no major responsibilities at the time besides a full-time job, and the MMO genre was brand new, that's what made it so amazing. Now I'm 35, have a family and a lot more responsibilities, and have no desire to play something as time consuming and tedious as the original EQ was back in its day. The whole generation that started playing the gen-1 MMO's has grown up now. And the new crop of MMO's has learned from the mistakes of past MMO's. Very few people would consider sitting around for 6 hours, camping a static spawn, only to have it not drop the item that they want, to be fun. It was fun back in the day because we didn't know any better, we had nothing else to compare it to, and it was new and shiny at the time.
Nicely said! I'm close enough in age (32) to be in the exact position with gaming. I have a wife, a son and a career now instead of just a full time job. I no longer want to spend 5-6 hours online to get one thing done. I just don't have the time.. well, except for the holidays when I'm off work and will routinely pull all-nighters once the wife and boy are asleep LOL.
I just don't think that most people want to believe that THEY have in fact changed over the years. Some of it is the games, but a lot of it isn't. It's you. To that point, whenever I hear people yearning for the old days of gaming it makes me scratch my head... Ultima is still running. EQ (the original) is still running and getting expansion packs. DAoC is still running. If you all want to go back in time so much, why not play those games?
People talk about how great the old games were, yet they're unwilling to support them now. Seems odd.
I actually played EQ from launch as a wood elf Ranger.
I was a very casual player and played the game for 10 years. I soloed through content until my late 30s which by this time Kunark had been released. I made my first Trueshot Longbow around level 19 after mastering fletching ( Skill 127 ). I made a shout out to Greater faydark at the time and got around 20 tells back congratualting me. I did the whole quest solo.
Soon two of my real life friends finally had the internet and managed to get a pc that could run EQ, early years were full of crashes and bugs. We then started to group and had a regular session on a Wednesday night where we would put aside four hours where we each took it in turns deciding what and where to go....this usually ended up being at least a 7 hour session.
While guilds were being built and raids were regular we carried oin playing in our small casual group and rather than concentrate on levelling we just simply played the game...you see in early EQ there was no point in levelling as it took so long, you just played. These were the best times i have ever had in a game.
We explored new area's where we litteraly had to sneak across whole zones and avoid every mob just to see what was on the other side. we had to avoid the mobs because if we got caught we would surely die, which meant we would more than likely lose all our equipment.... this just added a thrill to us as we were adventurers at heart. we wanted to explore, we wanted to plan excursions.
We went to visit Dalnirs Crypt. we had to plan what to take as it was a long journey... knowing that when we got there we would likely have the place to ourselves, at most another group. This was because of the journey to get there, it was a risk just travelling there. But the reward...oohh the reward! we made a fortune from that place....the mobs dropped Plat, can you believe it? they really did. Yes we could go to SolA and farm.. it would be safer, easier and close to a merchant. But if we went to Dalnirs we could make so much more, it was just dangerous.
Anyone that played EQ back in those days will know that you could play EQ and progress solo or casually, it just takes a different way to play ( as Kyerlan said ). We all started playing EQ that way.
Thats what i miss, a game where i can feel elation and dissapointment. Joy or heartache! thats why i am such a huge Everton fan haha! Risk v Reward is the most underated game mechanism and is surely missing in modern games.
Since EQ i have played too many to list. i am playing SWOR at the moment while also recently played Neverwinter, GW2, Wurm, War, Wow, just to name a few. I have never been challenged since EQ. I hjave never been rewarded in a game since EQ!
EQ is still running with a faithful following and it's 20th expansion. With so many vivid memories.. why aren't you there?
The genre is dying and dying fast. Many new players still roll in these games but they rarely stay for more then a month. i don't think cloning is really an issue I think it's more that they keep cloning the same game, AKA World of Warcraft. There's a plethora of great features to clone in Ashron's Call, DAoC, EQ Classic and UO but it's not happening.
Every current MMO developer has zero balls because the evidence is in their games. No risks are being taken and whenever the chips are down more WoW features get added seemingly overnight. We need more guys willing to go balls to the walls with their fresh take on old idea and/or innovation and be willing to fall on their sword if profits start to drop.
Originally posted by Havekk Originally posted by ForgrimmYou also have to realize that while games have evolved, us old-school players have aged and evolved as well. I started playing EQ back in '99 when I was 22 years old. I had no major responsibilities at the time besides a full-time job, and the MMO genre was brand new, that's what made it so amazing. Now I'm 35, have a family and a lot more responsibilities, and have no desire to play something as time consuming and tedious as the original EQ was back in its day. The whole generation that started playing the gen-1 MMO's has grown up now. And the new crop of MMO's has learned from the mistakes of past MMO's. Very few people would consider sitting around for 6 hours, camping a static spawn, only to have it not drop the item that they want, to be fun. It was fun back in the day because we didn't know any better, we had nothing else to compare it to, and it was new and shiny at the time.
Nicely said! I'm close enough in age (32) to be in the exact position with gaming. I have a wife, a son and a career now instead of just a full time job. I no longer want to spend 5-6 hours online to get one thing done. I just don't have the time.. well, except for the holidays when I'm off work and will routinely pull all-nighters once the wife and boy are asleep LOL.
I just don't think that most people want to believe that THEY have in fact changed over the years. Some of it is the games, but a lot of it isn't. It's you. To that point, whenever I hear people yearning for the old days of gaming it makes me scratch my head... Ultima is still running. EQ (the original) is still running and getting expansion packs. DAoC is still running. If you all want to go back in time so much, why not play those games?
People talk about how great the old games were, yet they're unwilling to support them now. Seems odd.
I am not an 'old school' player. I see a lot of pointless activity there. However, I can understand and even support the idea that if someone likes a particular type of game, they want a new rendition of it that stays faithful to the 'original'.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by Forgrimm You also have to realize that while games have evolved, us old-school players have aged and evolved as well. I started playing EQ back in '99 when I was 22 years old. I had no major responsibilities at the time besides a full-time job, and the MMO genre was brand new, that's what made it so amazing. Now I'm 35, have a family and a lot more responsibilities, and have no desire to play something as time consuming and tedious as the original EQ was back in its day. The whole generation that started playing the gen-1 MMO's has grown up now. And the new crop of MMO's has learned from the mistakes of past MMO's. Very few people would consider sitting around for 6 hours, camping a static spawn, only to have it not drop the item that they want, to be fun. It was fun back in the day because we didn't know any better, we had nothing else to compare it to, and it was new and shiny at the time.
Nicely said! I'm close enough in age (32) to be in the exact position with gaming. I have a wife, a son and a career now instead of just a full time job. I no longer want to spend 5-6 hours online to get one thing done. I just don't have the time.. well, except for the holidays when I'm off work and will routinely pull all-nighters once the wife and boy are asleep LOL.
I just don't think that most people want to believe that THEY have in fact changed over the years. Some of it is the games, but a lot of it isn't. It's you. To that point, whenever I hear people yearning for the old days of gaming it makes me scratch my head... Ultima is still running. EQ (the original) is still running and getting expansion packs. DAoC is still running. If you all want to go back in time so much, why not play those games?
People talk about how great the old games were, yet they're unwilling to support them now. Seems odd.
Because they're old and changed? I played UO emulators to the point I am tired of playing and prefer a newer mechanism, interface, graphics and content. Unlike WoW clones, UO didn't go beyond SWG as far as updating and that's dead. Besides nobody plays any game forever.
I was attempting to try every single game as they came out, and noticing I wasn't having much fun with MMO's I think I was in the same boat as you, I like a lot of them but couldn't enjoy them at the time. The most recent MMO I had fun with on PC was WoW and even then it lost it's charm a month or so ago. I recently bought a PS4 and have been solely playing that and having a blast, I suggest you stick to other games for a while and come back, I'm sure the genre will be a little more fun after a break.
Comments
BROWSER BASED GAMES ARE NOT REAL GAMES PERIOD!
Get real, browser games are like android games or less than anything standard a PC player should like.
My first computer game was on a ZX81 (excluding console and arcade)
i guess the whole history of computer games were not real games.
I wrote a section to give the OP hope, but I felt it necessarily to balance that with some reality. If you disagree with anything I said you are free to say why. From there being gambling lock boxes in every MMO within a couple of years to the majority now being P2W I stand by it.
Wrong. Wrong so many times over. AoC started off with 900k, and then crashed so hard that two partner studios of Funcom's went bankrupt. Building for years is still possible, just look at Eve. You need the right kind of design to keep people playing long term, and that design, almost all the founders of the genre agree, is designing the game so that players generate their own content and socialize, which results in people forming bonds and sticking together longer.
Building up slowly over time has nothing to do with retention. Flat out wrong. If people leave your game right away, they can't bring new players into the game who hadn't tried it yet. Eve released in 2003, a year before WoW. A time when games could build up slowly over time. That doesn't explain why it is STILL growing. Maybe that's how they had to before WoW released. The point is, Eve isn't a new game. If Eve released today, everyone who could know about the game would know about the game before it released, and all of those people would join the game when it released. They wouldn't wait years. That doesn't explain why it is STILL growing. Under your theory, everyone who might ever play a game plays it the day of launch. Which is just laughable. AoC, probably the weakest of the 'AAA' games still running reached a point that none of the 'old school' games ever got close to. It started with 900k subscribers. It has far fewer now, but there was no way it was going to have more. If it was actually a good game people wanted to play, it would have gotten more. There are more than 900k people in the world. I myself didn't play at launch because everyone said it sucked. And those 900k existed all in one month. Over the course of 6 years, sitting at 500k, that's a LOT more people overall playing and paying for EQ
Please stop and think before your next post.
Again, present information that shows (a) building up slowly over time means there is actually more retention and (b) that there is some reason a game developer would build up players slowly over time, much less could, now.
Eve is still growing because they added China as a customer base. Eve has plateaued in the West. http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-2.png
I never said AoC was a good game. I didn't much like it myself. It's a good enough game that enough people played it to make enough money to bankroll an entire MMORPG.
It is no surprise to me that there are 900k people in the world. I'm sure there are people who would be amazed at that, but I'm not one of them. You cannot dazzle me with your facts.
EQ didn't sit at 500k players for six years. They hovered above 400k for six years, with a brief bump to 550k and then a very rapid decline. Almost as if the times were changing and people stopped playing one MMORPG because it was the only optional available.
You seem to be setting yourself up as some sort of authority, and even ignoring your slippery grasps of factual information, you're not. None of us are except the people who actually work in the industry and who have far more information than we do. The industry isn't moving away from a certain kind of game because that type of game makes more money but it's just 'meh' to develop. They are moving away from a certain kind of game because people stopped buying them. At least in the numbers that developers or publishers wanted players to buy the games.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
It's not a "weird dependency", it's a lack of things to do that we enjoy. I say "we" when I mean "me" and perhaps others share the same situation. (you see... I already left this for those that complain I think I am speaking for the masses... I am NOT, but I would be an idiot to think I am the only one in this situation and I acknowledge that in this post.)
Am I a fan of Sports? Not only no, but...no. Not interested in Football (either kind), not in tennis, not in hockey, no to rugby, only Baseball do I like a little bit and I can't stand to watch it because it's been corrupted with money...
Am I a fan of reading literature? Sure, but all the books I wanted to read I have read, and the new ones coming out now are written by People I think were born on a different planet or have a sexual obsession.
Am I a fan of say... Movies? nope. Cars? Nope. Am I a playboy? Never in my wildest dreams. Do I like to surf the Web, post on Facebook? Nope, I won't touch that meat market website. Twitter? Nope, no one can hold an intelligent conversation and do it with one liners.... the whole concept is flawed as far as I am concerned.
Camping? Sure if it's primitive camping with no boomboxes playing in the Tin Tipi (camping trailer) next to my camping site... has anyone here honestly tried to find a place in the real world where you can set up a camp site and NOT HEAR CARS/TRUCKS or SEE JETS IN THE SKY? There is no where to camp as I would wish to do so. When I go Camping I want to do it primitive and do it somewhere I am not reminded of the Human World I don't enjoy anymore.
Years ago there was a primitive camping and black powder "hobby" that sprang up from the Historical Re-enactment folks called the "Rendezvous Circuit", Camps set up with everyone in white canvas, buckskins, finger woven sashes, flintlock rifles, tomahawks, etc, that was fun and fulfilling, I loved it ... However... then 9/11 happened and the US Government started to watch us like a hawk because they thought we collectively were some kind of terrorist organization... that Hobby was done. Killed by fear.
I could go on but I won't.
I.... perhaps "we".... play MMOs because it is what we enjoy, not because we are obsessed or have a dependency. I really don't have an interest in anything else. I don't play console games, or RTS's, or FPS's, because I tried them and DON'T enjoy them like I do MMOs. "Go try another Genre" doesn't work for me.
I (we) play MMOs because so many other things we loved already got changed/corrupted/altered and we found MMOs as either our favorite Hobby or as a replacement for a Hobby we lost, and now MMOs are as well becoming changed/altered/corrupted as we see them, from our point of view.
I agree, those who keep hankering for the, 'old days', really do lack perspective.
Either that of their lives really haven't changed much in 15 odd years which is rather tragic...
This looks like a job for....The Riviera Kid!
Well, observations like these have been posted for 10 years now and although it is all true and it suck, there is not much You can do about, less You got millions to invaste and the right people to make it happen. And even then, You will meet all the dilemmas when You have to choose between a hidden/locked feature or virtual world stuff that only a few will find, or making this other thing that is an improvement for everyone - The first is needed the create the magic and freedom we miss from real mmorps, the other is needed to keep players in the game.. Funny thing is neither will succeed without the other.
The virtual world era is over, now it is all abot directed stories and calculated experiences, but someday that will die out aswell, and something new will emerge using new tech..it will not be like the old mmorps but it may embrace some of the qualities.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
I had this problem for a while. When it comes down to it, every MMO is fun if you have a consistent group of people to play with. Spend some time trying to coordinate RL friends and perhaps some long-time online friends in to a play schedule. Plenty of emulated older game servers and F2P games (rift comes to mind) that are a blast if you're playing with people you know.
I won't touch any of them without the friend-group being on though. Best of luck!
Oh excuse me, last time I checked an MMO player from 1996 on had a different perspective than one who started with WoW or post WoW.
Last time I checked the AVERAGE player here was not playing ORPG's pre- 2000.
Originally with Realm and Meridian, etc it was a small thousands of people now it is MILLIONs of people who have touched MMO's and ORPGs.
There is a big difference between my perspective and that of the average PC gamer, I have LOTS of PC gaming friends, nothing wrong with them all good if not better than me at some things, but it doesnt mean they have the same perspective as me, someone who has spent their hobby hours since the beginning on ORPG's
I'd appreciate if it you got off my D a bit about it. I'm proud to say I've been around since the beginning, don't regret my time. Experience and perspective doesnt make you smarter or better than anyone. It just means I am pretty sure there isnt too many people around who have seen as much in the genre. Although HERE, MMORPG.com would be the place I would find those people.
The one thing that you can depend on in life, is that someone else always is always one step up. I started playing computer games on mainframes, and my first commercial multiplayer computer games was Isle of Kesmai. With that I have you beat by almost a decade. Having said that, I have met people that have a longer history in gaming than I do.
It is true that games have changed over the years... but it is also true that they go in cycles. There is a LOT of good games coming out of indy developers today. Most consumers miss this, because they are jaded by the AAA mass market, and dont take the time to find the gems that are out there. Just wait a bit longer, and the AAA failures will clear out, clearing the way for the better games.
History tends to repeat itself, and if you just sit back and wait, you can see that what was once great, will be great again.
Here's what it is, the games are too easy.
The actual gameplay in MMO's isn't fun...... Unless it's actually challenging. I mean, when you honestly sit down and look at the gameplay in MMO's, it basically amounts to a really bad FPS where you don't even get the fun or challenge of actually having to aim. You just click on things and hit 1...2...3...4...1...2... etc. It's as easy as can be without being completely automated. This has to either be counteracted by changing the gameplay to be fun in-and-of-itself or by making the game difficult.
What made the early MMO's so addictive was the fact that accomplishing things was a real challenge and felt very rewarding. Modern MMO's are still saddled with the same boring inherent game mechanics but they don't have the added difficulty to compensate for it anymore. This is what causes the inevitable realization in players that they're "not even having fun anymore".
When death is irrelevant, enemies don't pose a real challenge, advancement is so fast it feels arbitrary, you aren't rewarded for taking risks and everything you need to do is plotted out for you like a 'to do' list from a to z, there really isn't much substance left....
I agree 100% with the OP.
As a result, I'm starting to play Magic: The Gathering Online instead. It's time for a change.
PS - even CCP has 'gone bad' - their PR budget appears to be similar to their development budget.
I actually played EQ from launch as a wood elf Ranger.
I was a very casual player and played the game for 10 years. I soloed through content until my late 30s which by this time Kunark had been released. I made my first Trueshot Longbow around level 19 after mastering fletching ( Skill 127 ). I made a shout out to Greater faydark at the time and got around 20 tells back congratualting me. I did the whole quest solo.
Soon two of my real life friends finally had the internet and managed to get a pc that could run EQ, early years were full of crashes and bugs. We then started to group and had a regular session on a Wednesday night where we would put aside four hours where we each took it in turns deciding what and where to go....this usually ended up being at least a 7 hour session.
While guilds were being built and raids were regular we carried oin playing in our small casual group and rather than concentrate on levelling we just simply played the game...you see in early EQ there was no point in levelling as it took so long, you just played. These were the best times i have ever had in a game.
We explored new area's where we litteraly had to sneak across whole zones and avoid every mob just to see what was on the other side. we had to avoid the mobs because if we got caught we would surely die, which meant we would more than likely lose all our equipment.... this just added a thrill to us as we were adventurers at heart. we wanted to explore, we wanted to plan excursions.
We went to visit Dalnirs Crypt. we had to plan what to take as it was a long journey... knowing that when we got there we would likely have the place to ourselves, at most another group. This was because of the journey to get there, it was a risk just travelling there. But the reward...oohh the reward! we made a fortune from that place....the mobs dropped Plat, can you believe it? they really did. Yes we could go to SolA and farm.. it would be safer, easier and close to a merchant. But if we went to Dalnirs we could make so much more, it was just dangerous.
Anyone that played EQ back in those days will know that you could play EQ and progress solo or casually, it just takes a different way to play ( as Kyerlan said ). We all started playing EQ that way.
Thats what i miss, a game where i can feel elation and dissapointment. Joy or heartache! thats why i am such a huge Everton fan haha! Risk v Reward is the most underated game mechanism and is surely missing in modern games.
Since EQ i have played too many to list. i am playing SWOR at the moment while also recently played Neverwinter, GW2, Wurm, War, Wow, just to name a few. I have never been challenged since EQ. I hjave never been rewarded in a game since EQ!
Stop posting things that are nearly impossible to argue against. I mean really. How in the world are we supposed to argue that you don't really like those things. Geez.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Nicely said! I'm close enough in age (32) to be in the exact position with gaming. I have a wife, a son and a career now instead of just a full time job. I no longer want to spend 5-6 hours online to get one thing done. I just don't have the time.. well, except for the holidays when I'm off work and will routinely pull all-nighters once the wife and boy are asleep LOL.
I just don't think that most people want to believe that THEY have in fact changed over the years. Some of it is the games, but a lot of it isn't. It's you. To that point, whenever I hear people yearning for the old days of gaming it makes me scratch my head... Ultima is still running. EQ (the original) is still running and getting expansion packs. DAoC is still running. If you all want to go back in time so much, why not play those games?
People talk about how great the old games were, yet they're unwilling to support them now. Seems odd.
EQ is still running with a faithful following and it's 20th expansion. With so many vivid memories.. why aren't you there?
The genre is dying and dying fast. Many new players still roll in these games but they rarely stay for more then a month. i don't think cloning is really an issue I think it's more that they keep cloning the same game, AKA World of Warcraft. There's a plethora of great features to clone in Ashron's Call, DAoC, EQ Classic and UO but it's not happening.
Every current MMO developer has zero balls because the evidence is in their games. No risks are being taken and whenever the chips are down more WoW features get added seemingly overnight. We need more guys willing to go balls to the walls with their fresh take on old idea and/or innovation and be willing to fall on their sword if profits start to drop.
Yes, it's over. And it's enough. We have played long enough.
Now learn to meditate and learn about yourself, expand your consciousness and do everything you did ingame, IRL.
LIVE LIFE, already.
I just don't think that most people want to believe that THEY have in fact changed over the years. Some of it is the games, but a lot of it isn't. It's you. To that point, whenever I hear people yearning for the old days of gaming it makes me scratch my head... Ultima is still running. EQ (the original) is still running and getting expansion packs. DAoC is still running. If you all want to go back in time so much, why not play those games?
People talk about how great the old games were, yet they're unwilling to support them now. Seems odd.
I am not an 'old school' player. I see a lot of pointless activity there. However, I can understand and even support the idea that if someone likes a particular type of game, they want a new rendition of it that stays faithful to the 'original'.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Nicely said! I'm close enough in age (32) to be in the exact position with gaming. I have a wife, a son and a career now instead of just a full time job. I no longer want to spend 5-6 hours online to get one thing done. I just don't have the time.. well, except for the holidays when I'm off work and will routinely pull all-nighters once the wife and boy are asleep LOL.
I just don't think that most people want to believe that THEY have in fact changed over the years. Some of it is the games, but a lot of it isn't. It's you. To that point, whenever I hear people yearning for the old days of gaming it makes me scratch my head... Ultima is still running. EQ (the original) is still running and getting expansion packs. DAoC is still running. If you all want to go back in time so much, why not play those games?
People talk about how great the old games were, yet they're unwilling to support them now. Seems odd.
Because they're old and changed? I played UO emulators to the point I am tired of playing and prefer a newer mechanism, interface, graphics and content. Unlike WoW clones, UO didn't go beyond SWG as far as updating and that's dead. Besides nobody plays any game forever.