That's part of the problem. Most games go F2P because they're not worth paying a subscription.
False dichotomy. Most games with a F2P option you can still get a sub for, and many people do. Games add the option because of all the clear evidence that most games make more money with a hybrid model than they do with a sub only model.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal The problem comes into play that you're not going to be able to raid or compete in PvP.
How come?
You either buy stuff from shop, grind your arse off in raids or obtain gear or w/e via other means.
You prefer to grind or just have no gear impact? Fair enough but just because the game is not designed to your preference does not represent a problem.
I haven't read through most of this thread so sorry if I repeat anyone else's points but here goes. Mostly I'd say check out how DDO handles it and they are pretty close to what you should and should not do. They let you EARN points to buy their content so almost anything you want can be earned. That right there limits the p2w arguments on their part that could be considered as p2w. More games need to let you earn the store credit in their game and not make it take 50 hours to earn something. That alone allows you to charge for some features that are 'p2w'. Basically they close off some content and say you have to buy it. But playing a while allows you to earn that content. They limit your inventory but you can buy space (it's only 1 of 5-6 tabs you can buy). That's fine since you don't have to have that space to play, but it sure does help. Same goes for bank space, they give you plenty and you can buy 1 additional tab (out of 6 total I think). If you can't reach max level or do the top content without HAVING to spend a lot of cash that is p2w. If you have to get some store items to do this content but can earn the store credit to buy that, I'm ok. This allows the company to make money but also allows players to earn it. Having people play your game is a key to keeping people interested and having fun so you don't want to chase away those that just will play long enough to earn the content to win...
If the orders are unclear, it's the fault of the general when the troops don't obey.
~ Sun Tzu
The model itself is a paradigm, it's free but is not meant to be free for all. If the general doesn't make it clear, it's on them because they are using marketing speak by terming it free then ask for money later.
This means any player saying nothing should cost money is following "orders" and right in their action.
As is one who says everything should cost something because they consider the "orders" unclear by knowing that companies need money to stay in existence.
Since you are questioning the clarity of the "orders" by going beyond what is stated by free, you should know that the general is to blame.
Here is the problem with your argument: none of them are saying absolutely everything is free. Not anywhere. They are saying it is free to play. All "play" necessarily encompasses is the ability to create a character, log into the game, and do something. Not everything, not most things, just something. The people receiving the orders choosing to be obtuse is not the fault of the general.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
I covered that with the last line. I'm prone to reread and edit a lot.
Eh, I think the "Pay to Enjoy" is something that is understood by anyone who isn't a drooling incompetent, without being stated. A lot of trolls just like to pretend like it isn't. Nothing in life is truly free, somebody is always paying.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
What they're not supposed to charge for is gravel to fill in all of the potholes they've built into their games. Grinding Gear Games has done it right so far with just fluff and vanity stuff in the cash shop. Last time I checked in, funcom handled their f2p transition of the Secret World pretty well. Not many other game companies have avoided the pay-to-win or pay-us-to-unfuck-your-experience options.
People will spend money in order to somehow have a better overall game experience then those who don't pay. Games put all these spins on it. But in the end, they are almost all P2W to some degree. Most have just hidden it.
This just isn't true. If it doesn't impact PvP, it isn't P2W, because outside of PvP there isn't anything to "win."
Doing higher DPS; getting the best parser #'s. Getting to/completing content faster. Getting a drop before others. Getting "server firsts".. Getting better xp/hr. Getting the superior weapons/gear. Getting the faster mount.
All those things, and more, are things that PvE players compete over. All the time.
Many of those things are enhanced or made more possible through cash shop purchases in various MMOs, so, you better believe people are taking advantage of them. I've been in F2P MMOs where you were required in certain guilds to buy cash shop items in order to "keep up" with them...
An old friend of mine did it all the time. Every single MMO we played, he was in constant competition with me and would do whatever he could to "get ahead" and "beat me" at various things. It got extremely annoying after a while, to the point that I didn't even tell him what MMOs I was playing anymore, simply because I didn't want someone constantly keeping tabs on me (what level are you? What area are you in?, etc), and/or trying to rub it in my face when ever they felt they were "beating me" at something.
He wasn't even the only person I've known to do that. He was just the most obnoxious about it.
That's part of the problem. Most games go F2P because they're not worth paying a subscription.
False dichotomy. Most games with a F2P option you can still get a sub for, and many people do. Games add the option because of all the clear evidence that most games make more money with a hybrid model than they do with a sub only model.
^ agree
It isn't that they're not worth spending a sun on. It's that they're not worth it to enough people or people never get far enough into it to get hooked. Many free to plays have people sub once they hit end game because most of what a f2p offers is aimed at people who do end game. Not the casual guy that just plays once in a while.
People like to forget that getting $2 from 200,000 people is better than getting 0 from them because they don't play. F2p games make money from a larger range of people who spend a larger range of money. If I spend $20 and play for 3 months, I've spent less than I would on a sub but I still spent $20. If I never played the game because I refuse to pay a sub ( for whatever reason ) the game has made nothing off me.
These examples that use total extremes of everyone spends nothing, or they are only paid for by a whales dropping hundreds exist because the poster wants it to be that way. Real life isn't filled with just an all or nothing.
With F2P the developers can charge for what ever they like, including hotbars .
Have the game completely open for the first say 15% of character development. Through combat, crafting, whatever. All content after that should be paid for. In that scenario charging for UI is a bit strong.
If your allowing players to get to max level and end-game content for nothing I don't see charging for UI an issue. Or even OP items.
Anything can be charged for in a game like that IMO.
It's different for every game. I'm a person who hates paying mirotransactions and almost never does it. If I am going to pay for a game I want to do it by sub. So everything I can't get without paying in a F2P game annoys me a certain amount but not having enough hotbars or inventory space annoys me a lot more than not having some cosmetic outfit. My preference is probably that everything in the cash shop should be available for in-game grind so if I really want something I can get it if it's worth the time.
But it basically comes down to an equation of how fun the game is vs how annoying the F2P model is. The minute annoyance outweighs fun the game gets uninstalled.
You'll never get everyone to agree on this. Sure, I don't care about cosmetic clothes in games , but for some people that's a big deal, so for them being able to buy all the coolest looking clothes in the shop is pay to win. A hardcore roleplayer may consider buying emotes pay to win. It all depends on what you play the game for.
Subscription model with no cash shop is the only really fair model which creates a level playing field where the only difference between players is time spent and skill. *All* F2P is "pay for power" to a certain extent. It's just up to the individual player to decide what level of pay to win is acceptable to them.
Originally posted by dreamscaper Go check out The Secret World. IMO they get the F2P design right. You pay for cosmetics, content expansions, and a smattering of boosters.
Interesting way of wording a question: "So what exactly are F2P games supposed to charge for?" Partly that these games are labeled FREE to play since once they charge for anything they are no longer free. Since MMOs need money just to survive, games must have a way of making money so, while some players may access a game for free, someone has got to be paying to play the game (at least for games that are listed/can be discussed on this website). Other part of the question I find interesting is the "suppose to" as a company can charge for anything it wants. For me, as a player, the question is "what am I willing to pay for in a cash shop?" or "what can a cash shop have that would cause me to refuse to play the game/would ruin the game experience for me?"
Since "subscription" by itself isn't an acceptable answer, what I want in a cash shop is a subscription that includes EVERYTHING which means the price of anything in the cash shop would be converted into in-game currency, preferably offered at in-game vendor and marked subscriber so item could not be used during time player was not paying a subscription. None of this paying for a subscription but still being expected to pay more to access mounts/pets/etc. that are only available in the cash shop. IF a cash shop game would do that, they can offer whatever the heck they want to in the cash shops for those that enjoy being nickled and dimed and those who don't mind averaging well over $10 to $20 a month on the game.
I'd be curious what peoples thoughts are on the Marvel Heroes shop and prices.
For me personally, it's too much to charge for heroes, costumes and stash. For others it's just fine. I base it mainly on the competition like TL2, POE and D3. All three of those games give you much more value for the money you actually spend.
If a F2P game relies on people spending more than they would in similar games with just box prices or box prices and subs, then I'm not likely to play such a F2P game.
fp2 dont change games or genres- they open only to a wider audience. What can be done with p2p can be done with f2p and the other way around (look at WoW: p2p with cashshop? Np!)
Originally posted by dreamscaper Go check out The Secret World. IMO they get the F2P design right. You pay for cosmetics, content expansions, and a smattering of boosters.
The secret world isn't free to play.
I consider F2P and B2P to be one and the same. Even if you disagree with that opinion, the example still illustrates my opinion, so I'm not sure why it matters.
Originally posted by dreamscaper I consider F2P and B2P to be one and the same. Even if you disagree with that opinion, the example still illustrates my opinion, so I'm not sure why it matters.
Unless you do not want to be undrestood, it matters.
Words do have a meaning hence all you did was illustrating your error, not the opinion.
That's part of the problem. Most games go F2P because they're not worth paying a subscription.
False dichotomy. Most games with a F2P option you can still get a sub for, and many people do. Games add the option because of all the clear evidence that most games make more money with a hybrid model than they do with a sub only model.
What's interesting about your point is that it's true, but undermines the claim that f2p is cheaper for the player. Were that the case, I don't believe it would have proliferated so much.
People need to get over this whole "boosts or advantages in PvE is pay 2 win" because it is total nonsense. Selling things that give a tangible advantage in PvP is not acceptable because its direct competition on an uneven playing field.
Selling PvE items doesn't really hurt anyone &companies can make some money.
Originally posted by Destai What's interesting about your point is that it's true, but undermines the claim that f2p is cheaper for the player. Were that the case, I don't believe it would have proliferated so much.
Most players pay nothing but in average, the game is making more money because one of the issues of past P2P model is that there was a cap on how much a player could spent. Your revenue was limited by your subscriber base - 15 USD per user.
F2P offers much more flexible scaling, for company and players.
Originally posted by TheCrow2k People need to get over this whole "boosts or advantages in PvE is pay 2 win" because it is total nonsense. Selling things that give a tangible advantage in PvP is not acceptable because its direct competition on an uneven playing field.Selling PvE items doesn't really hurt anyone &companies can make some money.
Your uber l33t skills do not matter if you are not geared up properly, even for PVE.
There is no less competition in PVE than there is in PVP.
Comments
False dichotomy. Most games with a F2P option you can still get a sub for, and many people do. Games add the option because of all the clear evidence that most games make more money with a hybrid model than they do with a sub only model.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
How come?
You either buy stuff from shop, grind your arse off in raids or obtain gear or w/e via other means.
You prefer to grind or just have no gear impact? Fair enough but just because the game is not designed to your preference does not represent a problem.
I haven't read through most of this thread so sorry if I repeat anyone else's points but here goes. Mostly I'd say check out how DDO handles it and they are pretty close to what you should and should not do. They let you EARN points to buy their content so almost anything you want can be earned. That right there limits the p2w arguments on their part that could be considered as p2w. More games need to let you earn the store credit in their game and not make it take 50 hours to earn something. That alone allows you to charge for some features that are 'p2w'. Basically they close off some content and say you have to buy it. But playing a while allows you to earn that content. They limit your inventory but you can buy space (it's only 1 of 5-6 tabs you can buy). That's fine since you don't have to have that space to play, but it sure does help. Same goes for bank space, they give you plenty and you can buy 1 additional tab (out of 6 total I think). If you can't reach max level or do the top content without HAVING to spend a lot of cash that is p2w. If you have to get some store items to do this content but can earn the store credit to buy that, I'm ok. This allows the company to make money but also allows players to earn it. Having people play your game is a key to keeping people interested and having fun so you don't want to chase away those that just will play long enough to earn the content to win...
Here is the problem with your argument: none of them are saying absolutely everything is free. Not anywhere. They are saying it is free to play. All "play" necessarily encompasses is the ability to create a character, log into the game, and do something. Not everything, not most things, just something. The people receiving the orders choosing to be obtuse is not the fault of the general.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
Since F2P is on the rise, seems like the message was pretty clear.
Eh, I think the "Pay to Enjoy" is something that is understood by anyone who isn't a drooling incompetent, without being stated. A lot of trolls just like to pretend like it isn't. Nothing in life is truly free, somebody is always paying.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
The Secret World is not a F2P.
Yeah, for some people, F2P games that are not F2P work the best.
Doing higher DPS; getting the best parser #'s. Getting to/completing content faster. Getting a drop before others. Getting "server firsts".. Getting better xp/hr. Getting the superior weapons/gear. Getting the faster mount.
All those things, and more, are things that PvE players compete over. All the time.
Many of those things are enhanced or made more possible through cash shop purchases in various MMOs, so, you better believe people are taking advantage of them. I've been in F2P MMOs where you were required in certain guilds to buy cash shop items in order to "keep up" with them...
An old friend of mine did it all the time. Every single MMO we played, he was in constant competition with me and would do whatever he could to "get ahead" and "beat me" at various things. It got extremely annoying after a while, to the point that I didn't even tell him what MMOs I was playing anymore, simply because I didn't want someone constantly keeping tabs on me (what level are you? What area are you in?, etc), and/or trying to rub it in my face when ever they felt they were "beating me" at something.
He wasn't even the only person I've known to do that. He was just the most obnoxious about it.
^ agree
It isn't that they're not worth spending a sun on. It's that they're not worth it to enough people or people never get far enough into it to get hooked. Many free to plays have people sub once they hit end game because most of what a f2p offers is aimed at people who do end game. Not the casual guy that just plays once in a while.
People like to forget that getting $2 from 200,000 people is better than getting 0 from them because they don't play. F2p games make money from a larger range of people who spend a larger range of money. If I spend $20 and play for 3 months, I've spent less than I would on a sub but I still spent $20. If I never played the game because I refuse to pay a sub ( for whatever reason ) the game has made nothing off me.
These examples that use total extremes of everyone spends nothing, or they are only paid for by a whales dropping hundreds exist because the poster wants it to be that way. Real life isn't filled with just an all or nothing.
Just stop the shit immodium. ; )
It's different for every game. I'm a person who hates paying mirotransactions and almost never does it. If I am going to pay for a game I want to do it by sub. So everything I can't get without paying in a F2P game annoys me a certain amount but not having enough hotbars or inventory space annoys me a lot more than not having some cosmetic outfit. My preference is probably that everything in the cash shop should be available for in-game grind so if I really want something I can get it if it's worth the time.
But it basically comes down to an equation of how fun the game is vs how annoying the F2P model is. The minute annoyance outweighs fun the game gets uninstalled.
You'll never get everyone to agree on this. Sure, I don't care about cosmetic clothes in games , but for some people that's a big deal, so for them being able to buy all the coolest looking clothes in the shop is pay to win. A hardcore roleplayer may consider buying emotes pay to win. It all depends on what you play the game for.
Subscription model with no cash shop is the only really fair model which creates a level playing field where the only difference between players is time spent and skill. *All* F2P is "pay for power" to a certain extent. It's just up to the individual player to decide what level of pay to win is acceptable to them.
The secret world isn't free to play.
Interesting way of wording a question: "So what exactly are F2P games supposed to charge for?" Partly that these games are labeled FREE to play since once they charge for anything they are no longer free. Since MMOs need money just to survive, games must have a way of making money so, while some players may access a game for free, someone has got to be paying to play the game (at least for games that are listed/can be discussed on this website). Other part of the question I find interesting is the "suppose to" as a company can charge for anything it wants. For me, as a player, the question is "what am I willing to pay for in a cash shop?" or "what can a cash shop have that would cause me to refuse to play the game/would ruin the game experience for me?"
Since "subscription" by itself isn't an acceptable answer, what I want in a cash shop is a subscription that includes EVERYTHING which means the price of anything in the cash shop would be converted into in-game currency, preferably offered at in-game vendor and marked subscriber so item could not be used during time player was not paying a subscription. None of this paying for a subscription but still being expected to pay more to access mounts/pets/etc. that are only available in the cash shop. IF a cash shop game would do that, they can offer whatever the heck they want to in the cash shops for those that enjoy being nickled and dimed and those who don't mind averaging well over $10 to $20 a month on the game.
I'd be curious what peoples thoughts are on the Marvel Heroes shop and prices.
For me personally, it's too much to charge for heroes, costumes and stash. For others it's just fine. I base it mainly on the competition like TL2, POE and D3. All three of those games give you much more value for the money you actually spend.
If a F2P game relies on people spending more than they would in similar games with just box prices or box prices and subs, then I'm not likely to play such a F2P game.
I consider F2P and B2P to be one and the same. Even if you disagree with that opinion, the example still illustrates my opinion, so I'm not sure why it matters.
Unless you do not want to be undrestood, it matters.
Words do have a meaning hence all you did was illustrating your error, not the opinion.
What's interesting about your point is that it's true, but undermines the claim that f2p is cheaper for the player. Were that the case, I don't believe it would have proliferated so much.
Selling PvE items doesn't really hurt anyone &companies can make some money.
Most players pay nothing but in average, the game is making more money because one of the issues of past P2P model is that there was a cap on how much a player could spent. Your revenue was limited by your subscriber base - 15 USD per user.
F2P offers much more flexible scaling, for company and players.
Your uber l33t skills do not matter if you are not geared up properly, even for PVE.
There is no less competition in PVE than there is in PVP.