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Poll: are traditional levels necessary
LittleBoot
Member Posts: 326
Traditional levels are good for developers because:
- they allow them to lock off certain content.
- and give the player a sense of advancement.
But for me they are quite a lazy method, and made utterly redundant by the arbitrary changes in player levels to suit lower areas in games like GW2.
Obviously traditional levels are meaningless- you move to a new area and all the mobs have levelled with you. They also render huge portions of a game unplayable once you have passed the level of certain zones (unless you have a slightly crap solution like GW2).
In GW1 I remember playing masses of content at the level cap because it was fun, because I got elite skills and because I got aesthetic gear- but mostly because it was fun.
I think a game needs levels, but not necessarily the massive stat changes you get traditionally. The idea that a capped player can kill a whole army of newbies to me is absurd. I would rather see other goals, be they politics, aesthetics, achievements, exploration, small incremental improvements, skills, crafting, economy, building etc.
Losing traditional levels would also mean that the whole map would be usable by all the players all of the time and you would no longer have dead zones 1 month after release.
Any thoughts?
Comments
This x10
Ummmmmmm, but pen and paper D&D had levels...... just sayin' it's not like they pulled levels out of their butts.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
mmorpg junkie since 1999
It depend what "levels" you mean ...
I don't believe that.
Skill based progression like in UO, TSW or EVE are just as viable as a generic level system.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
Not really dudes... levels is a throwback to the old D&D rpg systems of old. There are alot of other game mechanics like White Wolfs storytelling system and a bunch of others.. that are not based on levels..
EvE and other MMOS out there also use a skillbased system, were you as a player are in total control of what skills and things your charecter learns.. It is much preferd to the boring dungeon crawler lvls system..
There are alot of other systems that could be used, career systms, skills systems, gear systems, they all make you progress but in a slightly diffrent way.
The question "is progression necessary in MMOS"
then the answer "mmorpgs without progression would be a joke" and this might be what you meant? But how you do that progression does not have to involve a level system..
I do not have a problem with the level mechanic itself but rather with how they are misused in todays themepark games.
Levels are what make these games linear. A level 10 character MUST perform quests in a level 10 area. Fighting lower level enemies has no reward. Fighting higher levels is not possible because the game mechanics make it impossible to win.
Levels are thus used as a red line through the content in an attempt to make any failure impossible. Fighting an enemy of the same level is always skewed in your favour, there is no option to lose. The game turns into a boring tread mill.
Challenges and failure are a part of a true adventure. They are needed if you want true satisfaction. Remove those and you have a meaningless grind. Sure, most players want to win no matter what they do and no matter how bad they perform. But I do not.
---
Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Only thing that matter is HOW you achieve those level
For example a brute brainless keyboard smashing in order to kill 1milion mobs to get lvl would be impossibly boring.
I remember back in 2000 200x in Silkroad to level up lvl 40 u had to farm mobs like 24 hours non stop i was useing bot for it...
But leveling where great lore is involved with quest where you take part of it even small part of it would be grate where LVL opens new things Skill items dungeon Next level new skill and new combination of that skill ( I realy would like to see something very complicated Like POE passive to be combined with Cabal skill improvement where visual effect changes and maybe even skill changes a bit and so on) in this case LVL would be a entertaining necessity to gain.
So from my point of view correct poll would be "What KIND of Leveling we should apply to mmorpg" but not if we need traditional leveling also LVL is the first basic cheapest smallest reminder of your progression
I think it all depends on the implementation. A developer can have levels or not, and still gate off content dependent upon some absolute statistic or combination of statistics, even if the progression isn't clearly displayed as a single stat for the player. At the same time, games can have a clearly defined and displayed level stat, but not gate off content and not have a clearly defined power level. It's all rather arbitrary.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
You don't need levels but you need progression.
The poster pointing to TSW is a good example. TSW basically has levels, the first skills you pick are your levels. You cap in power very early and then pick up other skills as alternative advancement. You get more freedom with this system than you do with levels for sure but those first 2 skills you pick decide your level to the game. That decides how much XP you get for any given kill, what colors mobs con etc.
'Skill based' games also have levels, they are just hidden better.
Pure levels are the lazy way out but all games need to have a progression system of some type to keep players playing. It can certainly be more horizontal than vertical like most games are though.
The game that really messed with this style was Asheron's call. If you were a melee oriented character you could kill much higher than yourself olthoi that would demolish a magic oriented character. If you were a life mage you were killing virindi etc which would really mess up a melee character's day.
In essence whatever build you chose there were...
Monsters well above your level that you could beat.
Monsters around your level that could eat you for breakfast.
And the monsters that were in each category varied build to build.
It is not the level system that is the problem, it is the artificial color banding of monster abilities and level limits on equipping equipment. There is little sadder than playing a game where monsters are banded, beating that red monster anyway after a long and hard battle and then getting loot you aren't allowed to use for 7 levels. You killed the monster -- the loot should be usable.
lets start with the... What does the level system bring to the table?
in my opinion it brings
To be honest I don't think that such term as end game should exist.
In few words this means this 'Developers we made the game and we are tire of the project and further development is to expensive let's make a toy for our gamers that will keep their attention of how bad this game is )
One system, of level I would also love is from Elder Scroll III Morrowind You decided to wear heavy armor you lern it while use it also it has a huge immersion feeling because medieval knights were using they plate armor every day every where in order to accommodate with them in some documents is mention some could get on a tree with them. So LVL could be applied as a SKILL progression . As as a skill improvement also with no lvl limitation you must add new mechanic to stop people use TOP TIER SET RIGHT away for example if there is a AUCTION you need a limitation on that TOP gear correct? and here level is very handy
SO I still keep to the idea that we should bother about HOW lvl should be implemented but not if we need it at all, removing lvl as a number with no purpose which is immersion breaking maybe, but removing Level completely is ridiculous
Doesn't matter how you formulate the idea still it come to same end We need a lvl progression but we need a new way to present it
For example you at lvl 1 start using 2 swords and you barely hit your enemy at lvl 100 you can solo 10 man and at 100 you become master of dual wielding so to improve game immersion lets simply remove Numbers there still will be a level of progression only that it will be presented in a new way which is more interesting so TSW has a lvl proggresion only that it's presented in a completely different way STILL DON'T THINK THIS WILL HAPPEN, BIG COMPANIES DON'T give a SHIT ABOUT WHAT PLAYERS WANT so yeah useless conversation guys....
And why people are against it we have level progression in our every day life poor English Level Advanced Level Fluent Excellent level or different job title witch scale with our progression in that field
I liked how Everquest 1 added the AAs to the game. They ranged from a handful of game changing abilities to style changes to circumstantials to small improvements that personalized a character and the way they played. It did allow a 60/100 player to defeat a 63/0 player. It also allowed people who constantly grouped for experience to catch some raiders who did not.
Most importantly though it gave some purpose to exp at the level cap. I hate when exp becomes utterly meaningless.
This is not due to laziness and that's such an old and tired argument. Please don't talk about "too expensive" when 300 million dollar games don't have it. In fact, the argument that "... big companies don't care what users want ..." is lazy because it makes absolutely no sense. Is EA making games about 3D balls bouncing around a vast world of colored shapes? No, why? Because it's not what people want.
Fyi, Blizzard did have weapon levelling as you suggest, but it was removed. Why do you think it was removed? I highly doubt that it was due to laziness. It was already in there! It would basically be like adding a few levels onto a Profession (which still have levels). So the notion that big companies don't listen to players is so tired. The fact of the matter is that the companies DO listen to players, but there are just a whole lot of other players who want a more tangible progression system and fewer barriers to achieving them. Case in point (apart from above), with the latest expansion of WoW they re-introduced a more lengthy reputation grind (similar to how it used to be), but in the wake of the massive amount of backlash, then needed to implement changes that would find a happy medium between those who wanted that longer grind and those who were complaining. There's nothing trivial about that type of change and nothing that illustrates how companies listen to users any better. If anything, smaller companies don't have the resources to listen to their community and implement changes quickly at all.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
I am not completely apposed to alternatives to a traditional leveling system. But, when you change that you also change how a game is played.
Take EVE online as an example. You don't have a strict level for your characters. And, age often equates to seniority in both ability and actual authority. Instead you simply level skills from skill books you acquire. There are dozens of basic skills, and more specific skills under each of them that you can train in once you have reached a predetermined level of competence in the prerequisite skills. All skills go to level 5.
However, skills are not trained based on practicing them and earning experience for them. Skills in EVE are trained in real time (based on rl time durations and weather or not you are online). As you inject skills, you add their training selectively to a que. After so much time having waited, your skill simply levels up. Your first basic skills may take something like 16 min 31sec to get to level 1, and by the time you are ready to train to level 5 it will take about 20hours. More advanced and specific skills can take days or a week to train to level 5. end game skills can take weeks to train up.
This system of advancement lets players focus on actually playing. It also means no one can no-life it, or bot it, and get there any faster then any one else did. But, the downside is makes it a game that is highly afkable. Strictly speaking in order to advance you need only make enough money to buy new skill books. I have friends on that game that i don't see for a week at a time. Because they log on to add more stuff to their que, and they are basically waiting on training to complete.
While this is an odd way of doing it to me, versus what i am used to seeing. It works. EVE is over 10 years old and still going strong. But, in changing that their MMO also behaves differently as a whole. The player base has a much more laid back attitude about everything from what i have seen. And, it's mostly about being social while making money.
Of course the point there was to give an example of system that is somewhat removed from the traditional, but still works just fine. And my over all point is if it is done right, if it is interesting, if it works for the game. I don't mind it.
I've never been a huge fan of levels in MMOs to begin with - don't get me wrong, I find grinding progression to be enjoyable, but I prefer that progression to be specific to a minigame, zone or event/plot rather than a universal number that suddenly obsoletes *all* content you're currently playing in one "ding!".
Integration of new content cost more because it involve problems of Interaction of content A with B also Integration testing is more expensive because you need experienced staff that developed and tested product. they have all on paper and if number don't coincide to what the want they will never implement what gamers wants. Yes they fool most of us with cheap parody they create but non of them are focused to satisfy customers first on list is money return . Yes they have 300kk but why do you think they would invest them is some random ideas of people from mmorpg and even they will do so only to make a cheap version of it in order to satisfy as much wallets as possible But when you combine Lobsters with Shit = you eat shit right ? . You're so naive ))
sorry for off topic
Well someone is naive, you're right.
You're exactly right! New content is expensive. That's why games like WoW charge you for content every year or so, on top of monthly fees. There's a reason for it, though, nobody WANTS to play tired, old, content. You're right, there is a niche market for those who are interested in just doing the same things over and over. Look at The Sims or Second Life. However, the question is how do you sell your next game to them? How do you have them maintain their subscription?
BTW, lobsters were shit until demand told the market it was a delicacy, so your example doesn't help you. Basically there isn't a significant demand for niche games without measured progression or continually updating content, regardless what you find on this or any other forum.
Basically, if you can prove the demand for the game you're describing, someone will make it, but right now there is no precedent, other than a small group of people acting like their collective is larger than it actually is.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
I like levels a lot because they're a good sense of progression. I also think they're grossly misused and are a major reason why you're done with an MMO so fast these days. When an MMO launches with 25 zones, 1-2 of those will typically be endgame, while the rest is reserved for leveling. That means that over 90% of the game you designed, becomes completely obsolete for me the second I hit the max level. It doesn't matter how many quests you built, how many events you stuffed into those awesome looking zones, or how epic your storyline is. I am now higher than the level of all your zones, and thus I have no reason to ever go back. So now I either grind in the few zones that are for my level, or hangout in the designated main townhub.
I would feel a bit disappointed without levels, but I would like them to look at singleplayer games for examples on how to do it right. If my sense of progression nullifies a major portion of the game the second I hit the level cap, then having levels sucks.
Additionally, MMOs that raise the level cap with every expansion are epic failures to me. The raids we spent days, weeks completing. All the dungeon runs, all the PvP grinding, nullified 5 minutes after your expansion comes out as the first quest I take to kill 10 rats offer better gear. You also chase new players away because wow, now I need to get 100 levels before I can hang out with the rest? That's a lot!
TLDR:
I like levels when done right. Nobody does it right.
Mmorpg's with lvls is a JOKE.
This 10x !
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