What this game needs next is...

Talemire

...a solid form of alternate advancement. It has been around for a long time, still kicking, and still being constantly monitored and updated. I know there are some out there with more alts than they know what to do with, and part of the reason for that is bordem and/or lack of any further character advancement. The icing on the cake for WoD would be a deep AA system that allows a lot of room for character augumentation.

observer

If they did that, it would be a 180 from what it is now.  Cataclsym effectively destroyed choices, by removing many talents, and homogenizing other areas of the game.

jazz.be

I wanted to give my opinion but then I realized it was so negative that I didn't think it would contribute to the thread.

The game has been totally raped by "progressive ideas" that I really can't think of anything new that would improve the game. Unfortunately, the only advancement I see is taking a step back and reviewing a few of the basic principles that used to exist, but not anymore.

Talemire

While I definitely agree that vanilla was great and BC even better, I doubt they're gonna take that far of a step "backwards," as Blizzard would define it. To us, that would be moving forward again, obviously, but what I'm hoping for is something to at least start the game in the right direction again.

reeereee

I don't see how this works out well.  If the AA system gave you any advantage in PvE or PvP people would be expected to grind it to compete at higher levels so it would quickly turn into a chore and there  would quickly be all kinds of elitism over it...  but if it doesn't give you an advantage then what exactly would the point be, other than like a new form of achievement points?

Lord.Bachus

Any PvE game out there needs 3 things at max level....

1) a gear progression system

2) an AA system..

3) stories to progress

 

Atleast thats my opinion.....

 

g0m0rrah

I dont believe that WoW needs an AA system.  I would like the ability to mold my character into a fighting style that I enjoy.  Not necessarily the most optimal style, but one I like.  If they took the current system of selecting one of 3 abilities and dumped it, then changed it so you actually selected which class abilities you want, then modified those abilities in some way as to make them more unique. Now that is a system I would enjoy.

  It would be interesting to see players take a class like paladin and see some in platemail and some in cloth.  Some healing from the back line, some healing in melee range, others being a combo of melee range healing and damage.  I just want options and this game gives little as far as character customization is concerned.

  The reason I believe the WoW doesnt need an AA system is that most AA systems I have seen include another experience bar.  Do I allocate experience toward level or AA.  I dont believe that WoW needs slower leveling.  If blizzard is going to sell max level chars, i doubt they want to add another experience bar to the mix.

Lord.Bachus

Originally posted by g0m0rrah

I dont believe that WoW needs an AA system.  I would like the ability to mold my character into a fighting style that I enjoy.  Not necessarily the most optimal style, but one I like.  If they took the current system of selecting one of 3 abilities and dumped it, then changed it so you actually selected which class abilities you want, then modified those abilities in some way as to make them more unique. Now that is a system I would enjoy.

  It would be interesting to see players take a class like paladin and see some in platemail and some in cloth.  Some healing from the back line, some healing in melee range, others being a combo of melee range healing and damage.  I just want options and this game gives little as far as character customization is concerned.

Guess what, thats exactly what an AA system is all about...... Fine tuning your character tillits exactly what you want from it...

g0m0rrah

Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

Originally posted by g0m0rrah

I dont believe that WoW needs an AA system.  I would like the ability to mold my character into a fighting style that I enjoy.  Not necessarily the most optimal style, but one I like.  If they took the current system of selecting one of 3 abilities and dumped it, then changed it so you actually selected which class abilities you want, then modified those abilities in some way as to make them more unique. Now that is a system I would enjoy.

  It would be interesting to see players take a class like paladin and see some in platemail and some in cloth.  Some healing from the back line, some healing in melee range, others being a combo of melee range healing and damage.  I just want options and this game gives little as far as character customization is concerned.

Guess what, thats exactly what an AA system is all about...... Fine tuning your character tillits exactly what you want from it...

 

  I edited my post to include this..

The reason I believe the WoW doesnt need an AA system is that most AA systems I have seen include another experience bar.  Do I allocate experience toward level or AA.  I dont believe that WoW needs slower leveling.  If blizzard is going to sell max level chars, i doubt they want to add another experience bar to the mix.

 With EQ2 and Anarchy Online they specifically use the term alternate advancement, as an entirely new way to spend experience. Personally I would simply rather level up and as I level up pick abilities that I want and change them in ways that I want.  Once upon a time I would have considered this standard rpg fair, times have changed.

Ocalypse0

I agree very much with your assessment. The game, more so than ever since Cata desperately needs alternate advancement.

And I can tell you why.

LFR.

Now, calm yourselves before anyone prepares for a World War 3 level argument over the system. Let me explain what I mean.

There should be modes to allow individuals who do not wish to raid to experience some form of raid content. I firmly believe this. However, establishing a system that rewards raider-level gear (including some upgrades to raider such as UVLS, CDR Trinkets and T13 Tank Set bonuses) is a system begging for burnout that defeats the very purpose of content.

Now, this is not just a rant about LFR, and here is my initial point. Putting LFR into the game destroyed any form of AA.

If you are not raiding normal difficulty and above ("raiding" LFR only), you are permanently stuck as the bottom feeder of the game. You are the bottom rung of content, and Blizzard is content with you being there. In fact, they want you there. You can expect no interesting daily hubs, no new dungeons (and most certainly not challenging ones) and nothing interesting in regards to crafting that isn't tied to raids (which again, you can only now see as LFR). 

g0m0rrah

I doubt Blizzard would ever implement more choice.  It seems that over time Blizzard has done everything in their power to reduce choice.  Talents to the current system shows you that they simply do not want to take the time to balance that kind of aspect of the game.   They also do not balance the game in any meaningful way other than endgame.  They choose not to spend money on the aspects of the game that would make me enjoy the game.  I accepted that fact and havnt been back since Cata.

Xssiv

Rift has one of the most robust talent systems on the market and AA via Planar Attunement yet most of my buddies and I seem to enjoy playing WoW more.  

Even when WoW had fairly large talent trees in WotLK, most people were just copying the flavor of the month builds for the simple fact that they were optimal at that time.  

I actually prefer the current talent model because I can switch up a few talents and change the way I handle certain situations which keeps things interesting.

Blizz's approach to progression also seems to be based on the "look what I got" model as opposed to being focused on endless customization.

This philosophy still seems to be quite popular with most people so why would they go and dramatically change it.  

I do think that Garrisons will offer a certain form of AA and should be a nice alternative progression. 

 

 

 

g0m0rrah

Originally posted by Xssiv

Rift has one of the most robust talent systems on the market and AA via Planar Attunement yet most of my buddies and I seem to enjoy playing WoW more.  

Even when WoW had fairly large talent trees in WotLK, most people were just copying the flavor of the month builds for the simple fact that they were optimal at that time.  

I actually prefer the current talent model because I can switch up a few talents and change the way I handle certain situations which keeps things interesting.

Blizz's approach to progression also seems to be based on the "look what I got" model as opposed to being focused on endless customization.

This philosophy still seems to be quite popular with most people so why would they go and dramatically change it.  

I do think that Garrisons will offer a certain form of AA and should be a nice alternative progression. 

 

 

 

   The difference between talent trees and AA in games can be pretty huge.  EQ2 for example, some classes you can change the fighting style of a class(inquisitor) from ranged to melee.  I believe that the EQ2 AA implementation is very short sighted in a lot of ways.

   In WoW I would like something a bit different.  Each class should have a list of abilities and you should be able to choose which abilities that you would like.  Then you should be able to modify each ability in some way.  For example, maybe a paladin could take a melee attack ability and tack on a small aoe heal to it.  I always enjoyed playing melee healers and this would appeal to me.

   I simply want choice.  No min/maxer nonsense.  I dont care if something is necessarily optimal.  I want it to be fun for me and fit a style of combat that I choose.  Talent trees never seem to accomplish this well because they never really add much choice nor do they add any drawbacks.  If there is a list of 60 abilities for a Paladin and I get to choose 15 of them but only equip 12 of them at a time.  Then I get to edit those abilities in some meaningful way.  Now that is choice.

Talemire

Originally posted by Xssiv

Rift has one of the most robust talent systems on the market and AA via Planar Attunement yet most of my buddies and I seem to enjoy playing WoW more.  

This ^

Lord.Bachus

Originally posted by g0m0rrah

Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

Originally posted by g0m0rrah

I dont believe that WoW needs an AA system.  I would like the ability to mold my character into a fighting style that I enjoy.  Not necessarily the most optimal style, but one I like.  If they took the current system of selecting one of 3 abilities and dumped it, then changed it so you actually selected which class abilities you want, then modified those abilities in some way as to make them more unique. Now that is a system I would enjoy.

  It would be interesting to see players take a class like paladin and see some in platemail and some in cloth.  Some healing from the back line, some healing in melee range, others being a combo of melee range healing and damage.  I just want options and this game gives little as far as character customization is concerned.

Guess what, thats exactly what an AA system is all about...... Fine tuning your character tillits exactly what you want from it...

 

  I edited my post to include this..

The reason I believe the WoW doesnt need an AA system is that most AA systems I have seen include another experience bar.  Do I allocate experience toward level or AA.  I dont believe that WoW needs slower leveling.  If blizzard is going to sell max level chars, i doubt they want to add another experience bar to the mix.

 With EQ2 and Anarchy Online they specifically use the term alternate advancement, as an entirely new way to spend experience. Personally I would simply rather level up and as I level up pick abilities that I want and change them in ways that I want.  Once upon a time I would have considered this standard rpg fair, times have changed.

So you dont want progression at max level?

well, how about gear progression?  All the raiding has one goal, getting beter gear, which is just another form of leveling

Lord.Bachus

Originally posted by Talemire

Originally posted by Xssiv

Rift has one of the most robust talent systems on the market and AA via Planar Attunement yet most of my buddies and I seem to enjoy playing WoW more.  

This ^

Which does not mean that each and every component of wow is more enjoyable, it tells something about the total package..

Malvious

Originally posted by Xssiv

Rift has one of the most robust talent systems on the market and AA via Planar Attunement yet most of my buddies and I seem to enjoy playing WoW more.  

Its nice to have all this freedom of talents, but if you play the game in an serious endgame guild you will always need to take the cookie cutter builds like the others have to be competitive. The exact same thing was going on in WoW vanilla/tbc. 

In general the whole talent system in wow or rift where/is pointless if you do not truly have the freedom to spec how you want and still being able to be competitive.

Lord.Bachus

Originally posted by Malvious

Originally posted by Xssiv

Rift has one of the most robust talent systems on the market and AA via Planar Attunement yet most of my buddies and I seem to enjoy playing WoW more.  

Its nice to have all this freedom of talents, but if you play the game in an serious endgame guild you will always need to take the cookie cutter builds like the others have to be competitive. The exact same thing was going on in WoW vanilla/tbc. 

In general the whole talent system in wow or rift where/is pointless if you do not truly have the freedom to spec how you want and still being able to be competitive.

Unless you have vertical progression in the builds....  And choices..  I disagree mostly with you... Thats because of the systems wow and rift have chosen... They are and where very linear... With 3 trees to spend points in.. Evryting is predictable...  Since the trees are all linear..  If you create a system thats less linear it works better 

 

an AA system also should prevent the majorrity people from ever reaching the max of it, like in good old EQ, that way you get a feeling of endless progression.  So whenever you get a new major patch your AA system gets expanded with new things and a new max point. Challenging people to build further.

 

Talemire

Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

Originally posted by Malvious

Originally posted by Xssiv

Rift has one of the most robust talent systems on the market and AA via Planar Attunement yet most of my buddies and I seem to enjoy playing WoW more.  

Its nice to have all this freedom of talents, but if you play the game in an serious endgame guild you will always need to take the cookie cutter builds like the others have to be competitive. The exact same thing was going on in WoW vanilla/tbc. 

In general the whole talent system in wow or rift where/is pointless if you do not truly have the freedom to spec how you want and still being able to be competitive.

Unless you have vertical progression in the builds....  And choices..  I disagree mostly with you... Thats because of the systems wow and rift have chosen... They are and where very linear... With 3 trees to spend points in.. Evryting is predictable...  Since the trees are all linear..  If you create a system thats less linear it works better 

 

an AA system also should prevent the majorrity people from ever reaching the max of it, like in good old EQ, that way you get a feeling of endless progression.  So whenever you get a new major patch your AA system gets expanded with new things and a new max point. Challenging people to build further.

 

This right here is what I think really keeps people playing one MMORPG, especially if they love their class.

Kevyne-Shandris

Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

Originally posted by Malvious

Originally posted by Xssiv

Rift has one of the most robust talent systems on the market and AA via Planar Attunement yet most of my buddies and I seem to enjoy playing WoW more.  

Its nice to have all this freedom of talents, but if you play the game in an serious endgame guild you will always need to take the cookie cutter builds like the others have to be competitive. The exact same thing was going on in WoW vanilla/tbc. 

In general the whole talent system in wow or rift where/is pointless if you do not truly have the freedom to spec how you want and still being able to be competitive.

Unless you have vertical progression in the builds....  And choices..  I disagree mostly with you... Thats because of the systems wow and rift have chosen... They are and where very linear... With 3 trees to spend points in.. Evryting is predictable...  Since the trees are all linear..  If you create a system thats less linear it works better 

 

an AA system also should prevent the majorrity people from ever reaching the max of it, like in good old EQ, that way you get a feeling of endless progression.  So whenever you get a new major patch your AA system gets expanded with new things and a new max point. Challenging people to build further.

 

Majority of the people will grind through it. Apparently you missed the fuss with questing in 5.1, where folks felt compelled to grind every daily. Offer AA, they'll treat it just like a rep grind and they'll be maxed out quick enough.

 

Now I loved the AA system in EQII, but Blizzard is going the MOBA/eSport route and practically removing any semblance of RPG out of WoW -- expertise/hit is going in WoD next for stats, and it seems haste will be the new mastery like stat. So AAs won't even fit in the changes of "less is more". At the rate that PvPers rarely bother to gem and enchant anymore, that I won't doubt will be next on the chopping block.