lol thats whats so funny about this thread...to this day 100s of ppl on screen at once is a common occurance in WoW.
Each and every time is a lag fest. Wow isn't designed for it. The recent new island added to Panda was a complete mess.
500-600 players on screen = slide show. 150-200 players fighting Oon, which i partake in weekly, is 30-45 fps....hardly what I would call a lag fest lol.
Quit trying everything possible to put down WoW......every game lags with hundreds of players on screen, WoW handles it much better than most.
BTW, iv yet to experiance anything under 60fps on timeless isle....you know..."that new island added to panda", for which you can't name, but know that its a complete mess
I would very much like to see some screenshots or videos of an mmorpg with hundreds of players running around on your screen. The most I have personally seen is about 80. The majority of "massively multiplayer" screenshots I have seen are between 30-80 actual players on the screen. EvE can show hundreds of "dots" which are players on the map but thats not what Im talking about.
I'm talking about people claiming to have these huge battles with hundreds of players on their screen. Its a common claim to fame about mmos. I googled some old school daoc screenshots and did headcounts and never saw more than 70ish.
So I would be really interested in seeing hundreds of actual players on a screenshot duking it out.
thanks!
Well guess if you can't see 1500+ ships close-up in an EVE Online fleet fight, then your computer sucks.
The user and all related content has been deleted.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
Type "siege" and either "Mortal Online" or "Darkfall" and you will see huge battles with real time combat, pretty epic... But if ur pc is crap you will lag like crazy..
lol thats whats so funny about this thread...to this day 100s of ppl on screen at once is a common occurance in WoW.
Each and every time is a lag fest. Wow isn't designed for it. The recent new island added to Panda was a complete mess.
The lag depends on 3 things:
A. Addons you are using.
B. Computer you are using.
C. How many in the vicinity (is it an isolated island, or a crowded city already?), for amount of vectors to process and particle effects.
Particle effects will lag out the computer long before a decent modern computer lags out due to too many models to render.
Since Blizzard updated their servers during Cata (about time, I ragged them enough about it as EQII long updated theres!), I doubt hardware is the factor anymore -- from latency of around 200ms down to 67-70ms, yep, improved drastically.
City of Heroes 1:20 in. And please, no one start crying.
They aren't duking it out because who would really stand back and film such a thing, but this is still the most people I think I've seen on the screen at the same time moving.
In WAR, I rarely got more than 30-40 enemies on screen (70-80 total players) on screen at any given time and the server there seem to phase people in and off screen as well. It was terrible to play with when roaming with the guild, had to constantly guess how many players there actually was.
Screen 2: This one was when the EU servers were switching over to Mythic, there were probably hundreds of people of this beach doing the CSR's events. Not nearly that many on the screen though.
Screen 3: Roughly 70 + those spawned on each other at FM and Healer.
None of my videos really show any huge battles sadly.
lol thats whats so funny about this thread...to this day 100s of ppl on screen at once is a common occurance in WoW.
Each and every time is a lag fest. Wow isn't designed for it. The recent new island added to Panda was a complete mess.
500-600 players on screen = slide show. 150-200 players fighting Oon, which i partake in weekly, is 30-45 fps....hardly what I would call a lag fest lol.
Quit trying everything possible to put down WoW......every game lags with hundreds of players on screen, WoW handles it much better than most.
BTW, iv yet to experiance anything under 60fps on timeless isle....you know..."that new island added to panda", for which you can't name, but know that its a complete mess
After Blizzard fixed things backend, because the day of Oondasta's release WoW was suffering from rolling restarts for days, as servers crashed by the influx. That zone wasn't designed for multiple raid teams rushing to tag the dino from hell, and surprised Blizzard when it did happen.
Blizzard is in a middle of consolidating battlegroups (goodbye Emberstorm!) and realms, and it's been a backend process along with CRZ and x-realm changes since Cata. From there, after seeing what we've been teamed up with this week as a realm, it really does look like Blizzard is going the EvE route (makes zero sense merging my realm with a realm with more players but even lower on raid progression. We went instantly to 100k players [hardly as that site counts things wrong and just keeps counting players and never purging deleted toons or transfers], but in no better shape so the numbers will just bleed from there). Now that will be the interesting thing, if Blizzard can outdo CCP in the one server argument, and still maintain all the bells and whistles (something CCP and SOE hasn't been able to do). That'll be the technical achievement MMOs have been waiting on for years -- truly a MMO experience without the shortcuts.
Blizzard is in a middle of consolidating battlegroups (goodbye Emberstorm!) and realms, and it's been a backend process along with CRZ and x-realm changes since Cata. From there, after seeing what we've been teamed up with this week as a realm, it really does look like Blizzard is going the EvE route (makes zero sense merging my realm with a realm with more players but even lower on raid progression. We went instantly to 100k players [hardly as that site counts things wrong and just keeps counting players and never purging deleted toons or transfers], but in no better shape so the numbers will just bleed from there). Now that will be the interesting thing, if Blizzard can outdo CCP in the one server argument, and still maintain all the bells and whistles (something CCP and SOE hasn't been able to do). That'll be the technical achievement MMOs have been waiting on for years -- truly a MMO experience without the shortcuts.
There is still a long way from that to what CCP is doing. CCP have 4-500k active account (not counting trials) on the TQ server with more than 40k online in peak times. No instancing. Just a hard limit that prevents more than 2000 players to be in the same system at the same time. When WoW can handle 2k players in a raid, give me a call.
It takes a specifically engineered game engine so it is very rare but plenty of examples as given.
A future game designed from the ground up for large battles will be Camelot Unchained. They have actually tested 1000 characters on screen but are targeting around 500 last I heard allowing for full game content upon release. Fps on average systems was still over 100. This is required for a true rvr game.
These type of games are far beyond battle ground style pvp and feels drastically different in game. It is war.
My only fear for these type of games is often they sacrifice the feeling of crisp game play. I hope this isn't the case.
Don't confuse tech demos with an actual finished product. Tech demos hold no truth to the final products capabilities.
Does not change the fact they are aiming for 500 upon release. They are building the entire game around the performance benchmark. This means sacrifices. It is actually the end result that interests me ... to see if they can pull it off.
The are some pretty big zergs in GW2 - on the blackgate server. If you have that game check it out. I don't see the point because it takes a lot of the fun out of fighting champions. But there are a lot of people in one spot.
No offence, but I don't get this thread... seriously. Shots of aged engines, "more than 500 = slideshow" comments, and all the other crap...
While not one mention of LotRO.
Op, if you really "would very much like to see some screenshots or videos of an mmorpg with hundreds of players running around on your screen." help yourself out:
An almost 8 hours long event, with more than 700 players. On a -mostly- current engine and graphics. With only some occasional lag - except at the end, at the after-concert event the Battle of the Bands, which is an intended stress-test (every band spreading out on Weathertop, and start to play music at once, while the audience running and jumping around between them), when the server ultimately crashed.
Blizzard is in a middle of consolidating battlegroups (goodbye Emberstorm!) and realms, and it's been a backend process along with CRZ and x-realm changes since Cata. From there, after seeing what we've been teamed up with this week as a realm, it really does look like Blizzard is going the EvE route (makes zero sense merging my realm with a realm with more players but even lower on raid progression. We went instantly to 100k players [hardly as that site counts things wrong and just keeps counting players and never purging deleted toons or transfers], but in no better shape so the numbers will just bleed from there). Now that will be the interesting thing, if Blizzard can outdo CCP in the one server argument, and still maintain all the bells and whistles (something CCP and SOE hasn't been able to do). That'll be the technical achievement MMOs have been waiting on for years -- truly a MMO experience without the shortcuts.
There is still a long way from that to what CCP is doing. CCP have 4-500k active account (not counting trials) on the TQ server with more than 40k online in peak times. No instancing. Just a hard limit that prevents more than 2000 players to be in the same system at the same time. When WoW can handle 2k players in a raid, give me a call.
No need to call us, in EvE those staging large events have to call CCP to stage those massive fleet moves.
The big fleets, during fleet events, are required to phone home so the dev(s) can shut down nodes and redistribute system resources to the zones the fleet(s) are traveling/engaging in. Those zones hit by resource management face TI (slow motion) effects (we see them as percentages of how much our node is affected. So flying in one zone, we can literally be slowed down to a crawl -- we're online, can literally crawl to gate to gate, but not optimally [really funny when it happens in an incursion zone!]).
The realm mergers in WoW are virtual (which I found out the other day when sis said the dailies reset at 6am, when our EST server technically merged into a PST server, and that's 3am for them), and they're "banked" in a battlegroup. Virtual merging of the battlegroups -- with phasing -- equals one world server...and better, without the problems CCP faces.
So it's the hassle of node shut downs > redistribution of resources manually in CCP's model; or the phasing model Blizzard employs automatically after virtual merging, that the end user will see (and judge) to be the best.
I like the phasing model better since it doesn't cheapen the visual and effects for efficiency, in fact, Blizzard has increased it to the point of ridiculousness at times...lololol
Added: BTW, 500k active accounts doesn't mean 500k are online. TQ average is 50-55k online at a time (that was at the expansion release, before it was around 43-45k). 1/3 of those or more are multiboxers, and the most activity is at Jita-4 [the major trade hub], which has a hard congestion limit of 2.1k pilots in the regions. In EvE there's traffic jams at the gates going into Jita -- like in RL LA -- from around 8am EST to 12am EST.
Over crowded servers aren't good, either (Jita-4 is an example of CCP has to drive incentives to diversify the trade to other hubs, as the players aren't going to do it -- same issue found in WoW with players only flocking to the "big ten" realms).
Damn I wish I had a screenshot of one of the Secret World events.
Hundreds? Easily 100+, my framerate went down to 2-3 when killing one of the Harbingers
+1 to that as well, Op if you want to see "hundreds of players on screen" but not on a screenshot, just log in to TSW when there's an rp event and go to Agartha.
Originally posted by DocBrody Damn I wish I had a screenshot of one of the Secret World events.Hundreds? Easily 100+, my framerate went down to 2-3 when killing one of the Harbingers
+1 to that as well, Op if you want to see "hundreds of players on screen" but not on a screenshot, just log in to TSW when there's an rp event and go to Agartha.
found a video, but that is still less people on screen than with the big event fights
So it's the hassle of node shut downs > redistribution of resources manually in CCP's model; or the phasing model Blizzard employs automatically after virtual merging, that the end user will see (and judge) to be the best.
While it IS a manual process it does not require node shutdown anymore. They can reinforce a node on the fly. Current problem is that they dont seem able to de-reinforce a node on the fly yet. Which means the node stays reinforced until next downtime, which seems the main reason that node reinforcement does not happen automaticly.
I would very much like to see some screenshots or videos of an mmorpg with hundreds of players running around on your screen. The most I have personally seen is about 80. The majority of "massively multiplayer" screenshots I have seen are between 30-80 actual players on the screen. EvE can show hundreds of "dots" which are players on the map but thats not what Im talking about.
I'm talking about people claiming to have these huge battles with hundreds of players on their screen. Its a common claim to fame about mmos. I googled some old school daoc screenshots and did headcounts and never saw more than 70ish.
So I would be really interested in seeing hundreds of actual players on a screenshot duking it out.
thanks!
You talk about EVE dots, as you know those are real players in space ships if you zoom in lol.
If you are in one of those 2000+ fights in a interceptor for example and you zoom in close you would get a awesome sight.
In EVE: there are 2 kinds of PVP: the one where you play zoomed out and look at brackets or you zoom in and see all the ships fly by.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
It takes a specifically engineered game engine so it is very rare but plenty of examples as given.
A future game designed from the ground up for large battles will be Camelot Unchained. They have actually tested 1000 characters on screen but are targeting around 500 last I heard allowing for full game content upon release. Fps on average systems was still over 100. This is required for a true rvr game.
These type of games are far beyond battle ground style pvp and feels drastically different in game. It is war.
My only fear for these type of games is often they sacrifice the feeling of crisp game play. I hope this isn't the case.
If I understand correct their graphics engine can handle 1000 identical characters smoothly, simulated all on one computer. Now turn that to 1000 unique characters all sending data through internet about their position and actions.
I really want to believe they can pull it off, but not holding my breath just yet
I would very much like to see some screenshots or videos of an mmorpg with hundreds of players running around on your screen. The most I have personally seen is about 80. The majority of "massively multiplayer" screenshots I have seen are between 30-80 actual players on the screen. EvE can show hundreds of "dots" which are players on the map but thats not what Im talking about.
I'm talking about people claiming to have these huge battles with hundreds of players on their screen. Its a common claim to fame about mmos. I googled some old school daoc screenshots and did headcounts and never saw more than 70ish.
So I would be really interested in seeing hundreds of actual players on a screenshot duking it out.
thanks!
You talk about EVE dots, as you know those are real players in space ships if you zoom in lol.
If you are in one of those 2000+ fights in a interceptor for example and you zoom in close you would get a awesome sight.
In EVE: there are 2 kinds of PVP: the one where you play zoomed out and look at brackets or you zoom in and see all the ships fly by.
The difference is in the latter you die really quickly, unfortunately.
There are many mmos out there where you could have hundreds of players visable on your screen at the same time..
One of the more recent ones that springs to mind is Darkfall and Darkfall:UW both fully open worlds where there had been umerous battles with 100s of players.. there is no restriction here.. and it happened quite a lot when the game was more populated at the launch of the origional.
As others have mentioned Planetside 2 is another recent example.
I guess you where trying to make a ponit that no game has hundreds of players on the screen at the same time so instances are ok.. clearly you failed as there are lots of examples of mmos that supprot this.
Also its not really all about having 100s on the screen at the same time but its more about having a server that supports thousands of players in the same world with no instances. Myself I think that servers that have one big world and do not split the players into small instances feels a lot better than ones with lots of tiny instances.. the world just feels more alive I guess.
Who knows maybe they come up with some more productive scrips .
100 people vs 100 now imagine the math done in this fight each skill calculation effect apply DMG increase DMG reduction special effect DMG mitigation Vulnerability cripple blind Protection DMG reduction the number of information is huge no wander why mass PVP lag so hard maybe they came up with a more productive script who knows.
Comments
Each and every time is a lag fest. Wow isn't designed for it. The recent new island added to Panda was a complete mess.
You stay sassy!
500-600 players on screen = slide show. 150-200 players fighting Oon, which i partake in weekly, is 30-45 fps....hardly what I would call a lag fest lol.
Quit trying everything possible to put down WoW......every game lags with hundreds of players on screen, WoW handles it much better than most.
BTW, iv yet to experiance anything under 60fps on timeless isle....you know..."that new island added to panda", for which you can't name, but know that its a complete mess
Well guess if you can't see 1500+ ships close-up in an EVE Online fleet fight, then your computer sucks.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
The lag depends on 3 things:
A. Addons you are using.
B. Computer you are using.
C. How many in the vicinity (is it an isolated island, or a crowded city already?), for amount of vectors to process and particle effects.
Particle effects will lag out the computer long before a decent modern computer lags out due to too many models to render.
Since Blizzard updated their servers during Cata (about time, I ragged them enough about it as EQII long updated theres!), I doubt hardware is the factor anymore -- from latency of around 200ms down to 67-70ms, yep, improved drastically.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
City of Heroes 1:20 in. And please, no one start crying.
They aren't duking it out because who would really stand back and film such a thing, but this is still the most people I think I've seen on the screen at the same time moving.
http://youtu.be/KnLUE5hPuh4
I'll be honest here, there is absolutely NOTHING I like about EVE, but that video is epic..... Wow, thanks for sharing.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
In WAR, I rarely got more than 30-40 enemies on screen (70-80 total players) on screen at any given time and the server there seem to phase people in and off screen as well. It was terrible to play with when roaming with the guild, had to constantly guess how many players there actually was.
EDIT: Screenshots
Screen 1: Roughly 60 + some NPCs
Screen 2: This one was when the EU servers were switching over to Mythic, there were probably hundreds of people of this beach doing the CSR's events. Not nearly that many on the screen though.
Screen 3: Roughly 70 + those spawned on each other at FM and Healer.
None of my videos really show any huge battles sadly.
After Blizzard fixed things backend, because the day of Oondasta's release WoW was suffering from rolling restarts for days, as servers crashed by the influx. That zone wasn't designed for multiple raid teams rushing to tag the dino from hell, and surprised Blizzard when it did happen.
Blizzard is in a middle of consolidating battlegroups (goodbye Emberstorm!) and realms, and it's been a backend process along with CRZ and x-realm changes since Cata. From there, after seeing what we've been teamed up with this week as a realm, it really does look like Blizzard is going the EvE route (makes zero sense merging my realm with a realm with more players but even lower on raid progression. We went instantly to 100k players [hardly as that site counts things wrong and just keeps counting players and never purging deleted toons or transfers], but in no better shape so the numbers will just bleed from there). Now that will be the interesting thing, if Blizzard can outdo CCP in the one server argument, and still maintain all the bells and whistles (something CCP and SOE hasn't been able to do). That'll be the technical achievement MMOs have been waiting on for years -- truly a MMO experience without the shortcuts.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
There is still a long way from that to what CCP is doing. CCP have 4-500k active account (not counting trials) on the TQ server with more than 40k online in peak times. No instancing. Just a hard limit that prevents more than 2000 players to be in the same system at the same time. When WoW can handle 2k players in a raid, give me a call.
Does not change the fact they are aiming for 500 upon release. They are building the entire game around the performance benchmark. This means sacrifices. It is actually the end result that interests me ... to see if they can pull it off.
You stay sassy!
No offence, but I don't get this thread... seriously. Shots of aged engines, "more than 500 = slideshow" comments, and all the other crap...
While not one mention of LotRO.
Op, if you really "would very much like to see some screenshots or videos of an mmorpg with hundreds of players running around on your screen." help yourself out:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/388786/Something-fun-to-do-in-July-on-a-certain-MMO.html
An almost 8 hours long event, with more than 700 players. On a -mostly- current engine and graphics. With only some occasional lag - except at the end, at the after-concert event the Battle of the Bands, which is an intended stress-test (every band spreading out on Weathertop, and start to play music at once, while the audience running and jumping around between them), when the server ultimately crashed.
http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/7013/sn7x.jpg (but there are a lot more pictures on the web if you want to see more)
And if you want a video, LotRO reporter livestreamed the whole event, you can watch it on youtube.
Mythical "hundreds of players on screen" claim... mythical, my a*s.
(and back at Codies during the GM-ran events there were at least 2-300 folks every time, sometimes more. /wave, +Faya+
)
Damn I wish I had a screenshot of one of the Secret World events.
Hundreds? Easily 100+, my framerate went down to 2-3 when killing one of the Harbingers
No need to call us, in EvE those staging large events have to call CCP to stage those massive fleet moves.
The big fleets, during fleet events, are required to phone home so the dev(s) can shut down nodes and redistribute system resources to the zones the fleet(s) are traveling/engaging in. Those zones hit by resource management face TI (slow motion) effects (we see them as percentages of how much our node is affected. So flying in one zone, we can literally be slowed down to a crawl -- we're online, can literally crawl to gate to gate, but not optimally [really funny when it happens in an incursion zone!]).
The realm mergers in WoW are virtual (which I found out the other day when sis said the dailies reset at 6am, when our EST server technically merged into a PST server, and that's 3am for them), and they're "banked" in a battlegroup. Virtual merging of the battlegroups -- with phasing -- equals one world server...and better, without the problems CCP faces.
So it's the hassle of node shut downs > redistribution of resources manually in CCP's model; or the phasing model Blizzard employs automatically after virtual merging, that the end user will see (and judge) to be the best.
I like the phasing model better since it doesn't cheapen the visual and effects for efficiency, in fact, Blizzard has increased it to the point of ridiculousness at times...lololol
Added: BTW, 500k active accounts doesn't mean 500k are online. TQ average is 50-55k online at a time (that was at the expansion release, before it was around 43-45k). 1/3 of those or more are multiboxers, and the most activity is at Jita-4 [the major trade hub], which has a hard congestion limit of 2.1k pilots in the regions. In EvE there's traffic jams at the gates going into Jita -- like in RL LA -- from around 8am EST to 12am EST.
Over crowded servers aren't good, either (Jita-4 is an example of CCP has to drive incentives to diversify the trade to other hubs, as the players aren't going to do it -- same issue found in WoW with players only flocking to the "big ten" realms).
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
+1 to that as well, Op if you want to see "hundreds of players on screen" but not on a screenshot, just log in to TSW when there's an rp event and go to Agartha.
+1 to that as well, Op if you want to see "hundreds of players on screen" but not on a screenshot, just log in to TSW when there's an rp event and go to Agartha.
found a video, but that is still less people on screen than with the big event fightsWhile it IS a manual process it does not require node shutdown anymore. They can reinforce a node on the fly. Current problem is that they dont seem able to de-reinforce a node on the fly yet. Which means the node stays reinforced until next downtime, which seems the main reason that node reinforcement does not happen automaticly.
You talk about EVE dots, as you know those are real players in space ships if you zoom in lol.
If you are in one of those 2000+ fights in a interceptor for example and you zoom in close you would get a awesome sight.
In EVE: there are 2 kinds of PVP: the one where you play zoomed out and look at brackets or you zoom in and see all the ships fly by.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
If I understand correct their graphics engine can handle 1000 identical characters smoothly, simulated all on one computer. Now turn that to 1000 unique characters all sending data through internet about their position and actions.
I really want to believe they can pull it off, but not holding my breath just yet
The difference is in the latter you die really quickly, unfortunately.
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
What point are you trying to make OP..
There are many mmos out there where you could have hundreds of players visable on your screen at the same time..
One of the more recent ones that springs to mind is Darkfall and Darkfall:UW both fully open worlds where there had been umerous battles with 100s of players.. there is no restriction here.. and it happened quite a lot when the game was more populated at the launch of the origional.
As others have mentioned Planetside 2 is another recent example.
I guess you where trying to make a ponit that no game has hundreds of players on the screen at the same time so instances are ok.. clearly you failed as there are lots of examples of mmos that supprot this.
Also its not really all about having 100s on the screen at the same time but its more about having a server that supports thousands of players in the same world with no instances. Myself I think that servers that have one big world and do not split the players into small instances feels a lot better than ones with lots of tiny instances.. the world just feels more alive I guess.
Who knows maybe they come up with some more productive scrips .
100 people vs 100 now imagine the math done in this fight each skill calculation effect apply DMG increase DMG reduction special effect DMG mitigation Vulnerability cripple blind Protection DMG reduction the number of information is huge no wander why mass PVP lag so hard maybe they came up with a more productive script who knows.