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Why is PvP being focused on so much in an Elder Scrolls MMO?

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  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member LegendaryPosts: 10,875
    Originally posted by JJ82
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by JJ82

     Yes, you clearly never played Marrowind. The only attack on the empires lands after the fall of the last protector was stopped at the gates of the City of Marrowind never reaching the Empires lands. Even with the changes made to most of the TES lore sites where they added some of TESOs story it STILL states that it is Septim that unites lands from the OLD remnants of the Empire......not by beating the empire of Leogalsszs or shotnurface.

    Its just more proof they are trying to twist the IP to the game, instead of making a game that fits the IP.

    Okay... but show me a story thats been ongoing as long as TES that covered medium as far as books, comics, video games and now MMOs that has not had its lore changed and changed again and again. Star Trek, Star Wars, Dr Who... I could go on and no. Lore monster can be helpful or hurtful. In the case of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles new movie, they were helpful. LOL. Sometimes you need to roll with things. I wish I could comment more freely. 

     As bad as a game SWTOR was, it did not go against Star Wars canon.

    World of Warcraft did not break canon. (warcraft goes back to 94)

    Ultima Online did not break canon and that goes back to 1981

    D&DO did not break canon and D&Ds canon is by far the deepest of any IP in the world with over 1000 novels and 1000 more module stories. Its the same with Neverwinter, it does not break D&D canon.

    Look, I appreciate you being a fan of the DaoC model, but call it what it is and stop pretending to lessen the impact of its crapiness on this IP that never should have been used for the design. You design a game around the long standing IP, not the longstanding IP around the game.

    I was part of SWToR from the day they launched their web page, lore junkies were pointing out crap there. I played WoW from launch day as well and they too had lore junkies posting problems on the forums. As for DnD I did not play that as its not my intrest but I know of a few changes they made to make the game a MMO. DnD is max level 10 if I remember right. Level 20 in DnD online. For hard core DnDers that was a big thing to swallow. Sometimes things need to change when you change its medium. From SP game too a MMO... well some things need to change. The core of what makes TES great is still there. 

  • HersaintHersaint Member UncommonPosts: 366

    Here's to hope! Lets hope the RvRvR is tremendously addictive, meaningful and fun. It would put this game on the map. If not, they better hope as well. They better hope that their PvE is better storytelling than SWOTOR and TSW. I haven't heard anything about their great earthshattering PvE experience.

    here's to hope! Drink up fellas.

    image
  • -aLpHa--aLpHa- Member UncommonPosts: 852


    Originally posted by Hersaint
    Here's to hope! Lets hope the RvRvR is tremendously addictive, meaningful and fun. It would put this game on the map. If not, they better hope as well. They better hope that their PvE is better storytelling than SWOTOR and TSW. I haven't heard anything about their great earthshattering PvE experience. here's to hope! Drink up fellas.

    Hope... *opens up a dictionary...* *finds the entry..* *closes the book*.

    i am confused.

  • JJ82JJ82 Member UncommonPosts: 1,258
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by JJ82

     As bad as a game SWTOR was, it did not go against Star Wars canon.

    World of Warcraft did not break canon. (warcraft goes back to 94)

    Ultima Online did not break canon and that goes back to 1981

    D&DO did not break canon and D&Ds canon is by far the deepest of any IP in the world with over 1000 novels and 1000 more module stories. Its the same with Neverwinter, it does not break D&D canon.

    Look, I appreciate you being a fan of the DaoC model, but call it what it is and stop pretending to lessen the impact of its crapiness on this IP that never should have been used for the design. You design a game around the long standing IP, not the longstanding IP around the game.

    I was part of SWToR from the day they launched their web page, lore junkies were pointing out crap there. I played WoW from launch day as well and they too had lore junkies posting problems on the forums. As for DnD I did not play that as its not my intrest but I know of a few changes they made to make the game a MMO. DnD is max level 10 if I remember right. Level 20 in DnD online. For hard core DnDers that was a big thing to swallow. Sometimes things need to change when you change its medium. From SP game too a MMO... well some things need to change. The core of what makes TES great is still there. 

     Name some things that SWTOR and WoW changed. And no, I don't want to hear that such and such race cannot be Jedi, or didn't have blue eyes, or that race walked differently. Give me something remotely in the same area as changing the entire HISTORY of the canon to fit the game like what is being done with TES.

    I want new Star Trek reboot changes along the lines of these new crap movies being made, because that's the type of canon changes being done here. This isn't a "OMG they are allowing Britons to have blonde hair and are breaking lore" type of nit picking.

    "People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.

    They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
    http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/

  • Agent_JosephAgent_Joseph Member UncommonPosts: 1,361

    only PvP can bring me in ESO,just need more info how it working

    should be nice if devs make option to not instal voice acting during instalation,I am not need that crap in mmo's

  • MargulisMargulis Member CommonPosts: 1,614
    Originally posted by Razeekster

    What is the Elder Scrolls IP so well known for and what do the fans love about the Elder Scrolls? The great PvE. So why is PvP being focused on so much?! I don't understand why Zenimax is making the incredibly unintelligent choice of totally ignoring the core player base of the Elder Scrolls' gamers. Most of us didn't play the Elder Scrolls' titles for it's PvP because it simply didn't exist.

     

    We played it for it's awesome PvE experience which hasn't really even been highlighted at all in any articles or news info for TESO so I can only assume that an incredible PvE experience simply doesn't exist within TESO.

    This is one of the decisions that started the hate train really, because it's so opposite of Elder Scrolls.  Still, I think they focused a lot on the PvE aspect after the backlash.  So while it's still at it's core made for PvP endgame, they ended up going with the 50+ and 50++ content and have now said they will add raids and stuff too.

  • JJ82JJ82 Member UncommonPosts: 1,258
    Originally posted by Margulis

    This is one of the decisions that started the hate train really, because it's so opposite of Elder Scrolls.  Still, I think they focused a lot on the PvE aspect after the backlash.  So while it's still at it's core made for PvP endgame, they ended up going with the 50+ and 50++ content and have now said they will add raids and stuff too.

     Does it matter? This company was started in 2007 to make this game. we are talking 6 years now....it was almost a year ago when they started to scramble for damage control. going from 5 years of PvP focus in game development and shifting to PvE doesn't bode well at all because it smacks of half-assed. Not too far from DaoC in terms of starting to make Hibernia so late in development of the game, 3 years after release and you had in game protests for the "red headed step child" of the game. Even Jacobs lists that as his biggest mistake he says he learned from. I guess Frior hasn't.

    Who knows, perhaps by the end of 2015 the game may have a decent amount of PvE. Afterall, if it takes 6 years to create what it has now in terms of gameplay, another 2 years should do it for their new shift.

    "People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.

    They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
    http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/

  • SuperXero89SuperXero89 Member UncommonPosts: 2,551
    The short answer is because this is not an Elder Scrolls game.  This is a traditional MMORPG with PVP focus that attempts to emulate Elder Scrolls.
  • artemisentr4artemisentr4 Member UncommonPosts: 1,431
    Originally posted by SuperXero89
    The short answer is because this is not an Elder Scrolls game.  This is a traditional MMORPG with PVP focus that attempts to emulate Elder Scrolls.

    Which should be the best of both worlds if that is what you are looking for. A great PvP experience in a MMO is something to strive for. Adds longevity to the game. But from what I have seen, there is still enough ES in the game world to allow PvE past the starter zone to feel like Elder Scrolls.

    “How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?”
    R.A.Salvatore

  • Shoko_LiedShoko_Lied Member UncommonPosts: 2,193
    Probably because PVP will be the meat of the game after you beat the story.
  • JJ82JJ82 Member UncommonPosts: 1,258
    Originally posted by artemisentr4
    Originally posted by SuperXero89
    The short answer is because this is not an Elder Scrolls game.  This is a traditional MMORPG with PVP focus that attempts to emulate Elder Scrolls.

    Which should be the best of both worlds if that is what you are looking for. A great PvP experience in a MMO is something to strive for. Adds longevity to the game. But from what I have seen, there is still enough ES in the game world to allow PvE past the starter zone to feel like Elder Scrolls.

     If a game isn't focusing on the IP, it shouldn't use the IPs name. They only did it in hopes to sucker just enough fans into buying it to cover the cost of making it. DaoC 2 was never made because the idea of a successful cash grab was zero.

    "People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.

    They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
    http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/

  • Crazy_StickCrazy_Stick Member Posts: 1,059
    Originally posted by Razeekster

    What is the Elder Scrolls IP so well known for and what do the fans love about the Elder Scrolls? The great PvE. So why is PvP being focused on so much?! I don't understand why Zenimax is making the incredibly unintelligent choice of totally ignoring the core player base of the Elder Scrolls' gamers. Most of us didn't play the Elder Scrolls' titles for it's PvP because it simply didn't exist.

     

     We played it for it's awesome PvE experience which hasn't really even been highlighted at all in any articles or news info for TESO so I can only assume that an incredible PvE experience simply doesn't exist within TESO.

     

    It's all theory craft OP as those in the room when choices were made are liable to be "over there still"  rather than here to explain. If I were to speculate why they decided to focus on PVP it would be a feeling that no matter how much traditional PVE content they created it would be devoured by locust hordes of players in a week. PVP is cheap end game content to keep people occupied and lower future development costs with said focus. I would also speculate that the team was overly proud of DAOC and felt it was the model for success in the MMORPG genre that never got a fair shake. Therefore RVR was chosen in an effort to give some feeling of a unique focus to the game amongst the competition.  

     

    In my own view these ideas would lead me to conclude that the wrong people were put on the job for developing this intellectual property as an MMORPG in that they have created and embraced a model for the game that goes against both the spirit and the expectations of the core fan audience. The core fan base loves the open world exploration, dungeon delving, freedom of play and character development with an expressed desire to do it with friends. We have all read a similar idea presented by multiple posters in multiple threads of how Skyrim with multiplayer co - op would have hit these desires better than what TESO has on tap. They are right but this team had a chance to one up that vision with full on sandbox PVE and failed to embrace it in lieu of falling back on old and failed ideas because they couldn't figure out how to make it work.

     

    The argument that one can't make an MMO out of the mechanics and features presented in the traditional Elder Scrolls series is flawed and displays a remarkable lack of vision. It's the poorest argument presented in these forums regarding why the game is as it is. If you honestly feel that way please do not ever be in charge of creating an actual game because you have put blinders on yourself and failed to acknowledge the possibilities and new features that could have been included.

     

    The bottom line is that they have created a PVP oriented game for a PVE oriented fan base that overly resembles an older product with an Elder Scrolls skin pasted on. Those fans are right to be upset and when the casual players not yet exposed to the title get a chance to play the failure to acknowledge the expectations they hold for an Elder Scrolls title will create a backlash I fear. The changes to available feedback methods are jut the start of pre-containment here.

     

    Understand that I do not claim PVP should not have been part of the game (only that it was a poor choice of play focus for this IP.)  Cyrodill comprises nearly half the game with area and content as has been shown by the team so far. I am not able to touch on other choices made yet and will end off here.

  • rutaqrutaq Member UncommonPosts: 428
    Originally posted by Razeekster

     

    Is PvP even remotely popular in most MMORPGs? No, not really, if you're going to be honest with yourself. It's just a feature added to try and interest certain players to inflate a game's player base. That's literally all I've seen it as because I've never seen a MMORPG that was just 100% PvP and was actually successful.

     

     

      Umm.  yes.   Yes,  PvP is remotely popular in most MMORPGs and in some game like WOW it makes up 48% of all the servers.   PvP has a strong following with a large number of players, hence the reason developers keep spending money putting PvP into their MMOs. 

    Given the nature of MMOs, I doubt most PvP players would want to remove all PvE.   MMOs are level based RPG's at their core and removing PvE to make the game 100% PvP would cause a lot of problems for the standard leveling/advancement  standards that folks are used to.

     

      Players that are competition averse tend to downplay PvP popularity whenever they can,  since they are more happy with the challenge of AI and scripted encounters that you can memorize or watch the run through on YouTube.

     

     

  • RazeeksterRazeekster Member UncommonPosts: 2,591
    Originally posted by rutaq
    Originally posted by Razeekster

     

    Is PvP even remotely popular in most MMORPGs? No, not really, if you're going to be honest with yourself. It's just a feature added to try and interest certain players to inflate a game's player base. That's literally all I've seen it as because I've never seen a MMORPG that was just 100% PvP and was actually successful.

     

     

      Umm.  yes.   Yes,  PvP is remotely popular in most MMORPGs and in some game like WOW it makes up 48% of all the servers.   PvP has a strong following with a large number of players, hence the reason developers keep spending money putting PvP into their MMOs. 

    Given the nature of MMOs, I doubt most PvP players would want to remove all PvE.   MMOs are level based RPG's at their core and removing PvE to make the game 100% PvP would cause a lot of problems for the standard leveling/advancement  standards that folks are used to.

     

      Players that are competition averse tend to downplay PvP popularity whenever they can,  since they are more happy with the challenge of AI and scripted encounters that you can memorize or watch the run through on YouTube.

     

     

    That isn't true at all. PvP isn't very popular at all. PvP games all have niche player bases. DAoC is proof of that. And without any actual link to back you up, I sincerely doubt that 48% of WoW's population is made up of PvPers (and even if it is... that further proves my point that PvP isn't popular).

    Smile

  • karmathkarmath Member UncommonPosts: 904
    Originally posted by faxnadu
    Originally posted by Razeekster
    Originally posted by flguy147
    I hope they have equal amounts of PVE and PVP.  I think they may.  They do have I think 16 endgame dungeons and an Adventure Zone ready for launch which is their version of raids.  I don't know many MMOs that have much more endgame content than that at launch.  So I think they are fine.  Not only that, I think crafting will be more useful at endgame as well instead of being meaningless like many MMOs.   

    That isn't the kind of PvE content I am talking about at all. End game raiding is the equivalent of every other boring themepark out there. What made the Elder Scrolls special was quests that were interesting, exploration, and being able to just run out and do whatever you wanted without following some linear path.

     

    From what I've seen so far this is Elder Scrolls: WoW Edition.

    yea and that is band thing then? not. you all can bash as much wow you want but it wont remove the fact its number on outhere so many years and if new game is wow with new candy its only good.

     

    Because the plethora of clones that we have had over the past decade are so great and totally didn't fail at all.

    It's because of people like you we cant have anything different than the same old crap. Why you say? Because you people get told its rubbish, buy it anyway then complain and repeat. 

  • KerozenKerozen Member Posts: 8
    You are playing an MMORPG, please expect to encounter virtual players. Theres always plenty of games to fill up you're needs.

    UO, DAoC, WoW, the holy trinity

  • RazeeksterRazeekster Member UncommonPosts: 2,591
    Originally posted by Kerozen
    You are playing an MMORPG, please expect to encounter virtual players. Theres always plenty of games to fill up you're needs.

    You obviously didn't even read anything as your comment has absolutely zero relevancy with anything I said.

    Smile

  • Eol-Eol- Member UncommonPosts: 274
    because an MMO with a monthly subscription needs an endgame, something Skyrim doesn't have. They cant possibly create enough leveling content for more than several months for a moderately active player. Hence the need for an endgame. They could do the raid-grinding like WoW, Rift etc, but thank God they went the AvA route akin to DAoC. They will have endgame PvE group quests/raids also, but if they can get the PvP right, that will be the gift that keeps on giving.

    Elladan - ESO (AD)
    Camring - SWTOR (Ebon Hawk)
    Eol & Justinian - Rift (Faeblight)
    Ceol and Duri - LotRO (Landroval)
    Kili - WoW
    Eol - Lineage 2
    Camring - SWG
    Justinian (Nimue), Camring - DAoC

  • Eol-Eol- Member UncommonPosts: 274
    Originally posted by Razeekster

    That isn't true at all. PvP isn't very popular at all. PvP games all have niche player bases. DAoC is proof of that. And without any actual link to back you up, I sincerely doubt that 48% of WoW's population is made up of PvPers (and even if it is... that further proves my point that PvP isn't popular).

     

    What nonsense. DAoC was a popular game at the time. You have to remember that the MMO market is at least 10 times today what it was ten years ago. Back then Everquest was the leader and had what, half a million subscribers? 

    And its beyond me why raid-grinding is more Elder Scrolls-ish than PvP. Both of those are very different than a single player RPG like Elder Scrolls.

     

    Elladan - ESO (AD)
    Camring - SWTOR (Ebon Hawk)
    Eol & Justinian - Rift (Faeblight)
    Ceol and Duri - LotRO (Landroval)
    Kili - WoW
    Eol - Lineage 2
    Camring - SWG
    Justinian (Nimue), Camring - DAoC

  • evilastroevilastro Member Posts: 4,270
    Originally posted by Razeekster
    Originally posted by rutaq
    Originally posted by Razeekster

     

    Is PvP even remotely popular in most MMORPGs? No, not really, if you're going to be honest with yourself. It's just a feature added to try and interest certain players to inflate a game's player base. That's literally all I've seen it as because I've never seen a MMORPG that was just 100% PvP and was actually successful.

     

     

      Umm.  yes.   Yes,  PvP is remotely popular in most MMORPGs and in some game like WOW it makes up 48% of all the servers.   PvP has a strong following with a large number of players, hence the reason developers keep spending money putting PvP into their MMOs. 

    Given the nature of MMOs, I doubt most PvP players would want to remove all PvE.   MMOs are level based RPG's at their core and removing PvE to make the game 100% PvP would cause a lot of problems for the standard leveling/advancement  standards that folks are used to.

     

      Players that are competition averse tend to downplay PvP popularity whenever they can,  since they are more happy with the challenge of AI and scripted encounters that you can memorize or watch the run through on YouTube.

     

     

    That isn't true at all. PvP isn't very popular at all. PvP games all have niche player bases. DAoC is proof of that. And without any actual link to back you up, I sincerely doubt that 48% of WoW's population is made up of PvPers (and even if it is... that further proves my point that PvP isn't popular).

     

    League of Legends isn't very popular now?  And half of WoWs 7 million playerbase playing on PvP servers is proof that PvP isn't popular?  You are delusional. Stop taking drugs.

    Also the 48% is just the servers, the PvP realms actually have a higher population at the moment.  The fickle PvE players leave as soon as they are done with the content, but the PvP populations stay strong.

  • evilastroevilastro Member Posts: 4,270

    Hai Gais! It has come to my attention that the Elder Scrolls didn't have any social interaction or grouping! WHY ARE THEY FOCUSING ON THIS IN A ELDER SCROLLS MMO!!!!!

     

  • ShadanwolfShadanwolf Member UncommonPosts: 2,392

    The basic concept behind the game,.......

     

     

    combine

     

    -an ELDER SCROLLS pve experience and

    - 3 faction wars that never stop

     

    you can do one or the other or both.your choice

    huge pve questing areas...huge faction wars area

    that is the whole idea in a nutshell.

  • RazeeksterRazeekster Member UncommonPosts: 2,591
    Originally posted by evilastro
    Originally posted by Razeekster
    Originally posted by rutaq
    Originally posted by Razeekster

     

    Is PvP even remotely popular in most MMORPGs? No, not really, if you're going to be honest with yourself. It's just a feature added to try and interest certain players to inflate a game's player base. That's literally all I've seen it as because I've never seen a MMORPG that was just 100% PvP and was actually successful.

     

     

      Umm.  yes.   Yes,  PvP is remotely popular in most MMORPGs and in some game like WOW it makes up 48% of all the servers.   PvP has a strong following with a large number of players, hence the reason developers keep spending money putting PvP into their MMOs. 

    Given the nature of MMOs, I doubt most PvP players would want to remove all PvE.   MMOs are level based RPG's at their core and removing PvE to make the game 100% PvP would cause a lot of problems for the standard leveling/advancement  standards that folks are used to.

     

      Players that are competition averse tend to downplay PvP popularity whenever they can,  since they are more happy with the challenge of AI and scripted encounters that you can memorize or watch the run through on YouTube.

     

     

    That isn't true at all. PvP isn't very popular at all. PvP games all have niche player bases. DAoC is proof of that. And without any actual link to back you up, I sincerely doubt that 48% of WoW's population is made up of PvPers (and even if it is... that further proves my point that PvP isn't popular).

     

    League of Legends isn't very popular now?  And half of WoWs 7 million playerbase playing on PvP servers is proof that PvP isn't popular?  You are delusional. Stop taking drugs.

    Also the 48% is just the servers, the PvP realms actually have a higher population at the moment.  The fickle PvE players leave as soon as they are done with the content, but the PvP populations stay strong.

    League of Legends isn't even an MMORPG. Half of WoW's subscribers don't PvP, unless you have proof of it then I'm just going to say that's not true since apparently we're allowed to make posts that don't prove anything.

     

    Originally posted by evilastro

    Hai Gais! It has come to my attention that the Elder Scrolls didn't have any social interaction or grouping! WHY ARE THEY FOCUSING ON THIS IN A ELDER SCROLLS MMO!!!!!

     

    Maybe you should stop posting if all you're going to do is make posts that are of a nature I am not actually allowed to say (because even though you're clearly doing it, the rules state I can't even call you out on it), but I think people know what I mean.

    Smile

  • rutaqrutaq Member UncommonPosts: 428
    Originally posted by Razeekster
    Originally posted by rutaq
    Originally posted by Razeekster

     

    Is PvP even remotely popular in most MMORPGs? No, not really, if you're going to be honest with yourself. It's just a feature added to try and interest certain players to inflate a game's player base. That's literally all I've seen it as because I've never seen a MMORPG that was just 100% PvP and was actually successful.

     

     

      Umm.  yes.   Yes,  PvP is remotely popular in most MMORPGs and in some game like WOW it makes up 48% of all the servers.   PvP has a strong following with a large number of players, hence the reason developers keep spending money putting PvP into their MMOs. 

    Given the nature of MMOs, I doubt most PvP players would want to remove all PvE.   MMOs are level based RPG's at their core and removing PvE to make the game 100% PvP would cause a lot of problems for the standard leveling/advancement  standards that folks are used to.

     

      Players that are competition averse tend to downplay PvP popularity whenever they can,  since they are more happy with the challenge of AI and scripted encounters that you can memorize or watch the run through on YouTube.

     

     

    That isn't true at all. PvP isn't very popular at all. PvP games all have niche player bases. DAoC is proof of that. And without any actual link to back you up, I sincerely doubt that 48% of WoW's population is made up of PvPers (and even if it is... that further proves my point that PvP isn't popular).

     

    I don't think many people claim that the there are more PvP players than PvE players.  But  you talk like there are no PvP players out there, yet even DAOC can attract enough players / subscriptions to keep a dated 10+ year old game running

      Sorry,  the 48% of WoW number was a simple count of the total NA servers and counting the number that are PvP servers.     The fact that Blizzard released that many PvP based servers show that there is a significant number of PvP players.

    Personal preference aside,  these "mainstream" AAA MMOs are all about making money and wouldn't waste time chasing PvP unless it made them cash.  Hate PvP all you want but it seems to have a strong influence in MMOS, so strong that Elder Scrolls is investing alot development time in it.

     

  • rodarinrodarin Member EpicPosts: 2,611

    PvP versus PvE is almost the same as Sub versus no sub.

     

    If its worth it people will play.

     

    Vanilla WOW DID have a lot of PvP, because it was different (back then) but it was changed and toyed with and dumbed down and people stopped doing it.

     

    PvP in ESO still remains a mystery. Even though it is being heralded as the best thing since sliced bread. Thats really all that can be said about it right now.

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