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Pantheon: Combat System revealed! (slower not spammy)
ste2000
Member EpicPosts: 6,194
I am pretty excited about this one.
Personally I am getting tired of the spammy nature of recent MMOs combat system.
Learning your Rotation is all it counts nowadays.
Pantheon Combat will be similar to EQ, it will be slower than modern MMOs allowing players to think about the best ability to use in certain situation rather than keep spamming the same buttons.
Also they describe the Group Mechancs which involves not only a Trinity (Tank, Healer, and DPS) but also other specific classes that are specialized in Crowd Control and Buffing/Debuffing
More info here: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1588672538/pantheon-rise-of-the-fallen/posts/728944
Comments
Yeah MMORPGs definetly need more roles (and less skill trees).
My main character is always a Tank in all MMOs I played, but my second favorite Role is the Enchanter in EQ/EQ2 (crowd Control).
There is nothing more rewarding when someone make a bad pull and you as an Enchanter save the group ass by freezing all mobs into place.
I like the sound of combat so far. Reminds me a lot of Dark Age of Camelot. I never played EQ. Maybe someone can answer a question for me. How were the dungeons in EQ, I understand they were really big, but were they instanced like say, WoW where only 1-5 people can enter, or were they more like DAOC/Ultima Online/Asheron's Call where people just came in and out and weren't limited to how many could be in it. I liked the old Ultima Online/DAOC/Asheron's Call way of doing dungeons is why I ask. I'm still waiting for a reason to back Pantheon besides the biggest reason being that it's an old school Mmorpg.
What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot
I detect a slightly hint of sarcasm there, anyway.
You make it seems like it is a bad thing............ I guess we have different taste in what a good combat system looks like.
What this system means is that for example if an Enchanter Mesmerizes a group of mobs, the Wizard has to stop spamming AoE Spells or he will cause a group wipe.
I can give many other example of what a slower more thoughtful combat system means in term of group mechanics challenge, but certainly if you want to be effective, spamming buttons at random is the last thing you want to do in EQ/Pantheon.
The dungeons and the Raids were all non-instanced, and that's how they are going to work in Pantheon too.
Brad though said that some dungeons will be instanced for story purposes.
But yes dungeons will be similar to DAoC, AC and EQ (and Vanguard of course)
How will they stop it from being spammy ? Is there a long global cooldown or will attacks cost you something out of a resource pool ? tab target games are just as spam oriented as action combat is now, you just didn't have to move as much because defense was more stat based.
If you can use an ability someone will use an ability, I'm not sure where this stop and think about the best one comes from ?
Thanks
What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot
i liked open dungeons except for two things. Trains of mobs to your group, and campers. Tho i kind of miss corpse runs sometimes, gave you some incentive not to die waaay deep inside.
I saw on thier KS page that are are implementing skill chains, which are pretty much combos from different players using skills in a certain order which might give extra damage or debuff the mob or give a group buff. Sort of like FFXI's skill chains or EQ2's heroic opportunity moves.
If you just go about spamming skills without communication you'll miss your chance as there is a time window for the combo to work.
I hope they're closer to FFXI's Skill Chains than EQ2's H.O's. They felt very sloppy to me in EQ2. FFXI's Skill Chains felt much more "precise" and controlled. Though I do like how the benefits of them worked in EQ2, where the effects could be a variety of things, besides direct damage.
So perhaps a nice setup would be FFXI's more "controlled" style of execution, with EQ2's approach to their effects.
I never understand this argument. You see something happen, you react immediately. I don't need a 3-5 seconds to decide what to do or what best ability is required for any situation. Am i missing something?
You know it's funny... Having played FFXI as long as I did (almost 8 years), I "get" why the combat is slower, and how that makes it more tactical, etc. However, trying to put it into words, I'm actually having a difficult time lol. I suppose I could try and find a good video demonstrating it, but that wouldn't be helpful because the key to it isn't what you see on-screen, the key to it is the interaction and coordination, action and reaction that goes into it.
If you've played a FF game like, say FFXII... where there's a delay between attacks, and any given attack can be potentially lethal... then you appreciate how critical your next move, and your timing in pulling it off, can be. Mostly against tougher mobs, but even against "regular" ones, especially when there's multiple you're dealing with. You need to sort out crowd-control, buffs, debuffs, heals, etc. When you have all that going on, all those things to manage.. every second matters and, believe me, it doesn't feel "too slow".
Beyond that, I'm trying to think of a clear and succinct way of explaining it, and it's actually really tough lol. I keep thinking of Lawrence Fishburn saying "No one can be told what the Matrix is. You have to see it for yourself".
And that's really what it's like. From the outside, it doesn't seem particularly involved. And heck, if things are going smoothly... it can actually be relaxing, almost rhythmic at times. But when you get into those really hairy moments, where a couple unexpected adds come along and now you're dealing with 3 mobs instead of one - any one of which can screw things up in a couple hits, interrupting spells, etc - every additional second you have to coordinate and control the situation matters. Despite the pacing, there are fights in FFXI - even against regular world mobs - which have been among the most tense and frantic I've ever experienced in a MMO - that's including raid bosses.
When you're the Black Mage in a group and it's on you to sleep a couple Crawlers that have linked on and are now bashing away at your tank and eating through their HP - and the WHM has to be real careful to not over-heal 'cause then they get aggro, die and the whole party is screwed - believe me... every moment counts. That is, every moment including the time between each of the mobs' attacks, the time between each action the Tank uses to try and stay alive... the time it takes for the Sleep spell to go off... And so on. Perhaps you have a Monk subbing Warrior in the group. Being a job with a high HP pool, and a self-heal (Chakra) they can take a few hits, and with Warrior as a subjob, they have access to Provoke. So they quick switch to a temporary off-tank role and voke one of the crawlers, to reduce the damage the tank is taking, and to give the Black Mage some relief while they work on sleeping the adds.
Despite the slower pace... it can be extremely tense and, when you pull through and no one's died... very rewarding... especially considering the penalties for dying if you fail, which only makes it all the sweeter (and is, in my opinion, an example of why harsher death penalties are a good thing, and not merely a "punishment"... but that's another topic).
When I think about it, it seems the events and choices made in between each action carry as much weight as the actions themselves.
So, it's not just that the combat pace is slower. The pacing alone isn't what makes it more tactical. It's that the entire experience - the attacks, the mobs attacks.. the timing of attacks... etc. etc... everything is built around that pacing... The seconds and moments between each action is quite full. There's rarely, if ever, a dull moment... despite what it might look like on screen to someone just watching.
The attacks come more slowly... but they also carry a lot more weight. And that's on both sides of the encounter. So, the choices made in those moments in-between are very important.
And, in my own experience in playing newer MMOs with faster combat... It's never had quite that same sense of tension or satisfaction.... except perhaps in some raid situations.
That's about the best I can do at explaining it lol. Sorry if it doesn't really adequately answer your question.
SE tried the "slow is more tactical" argument to justify their slow combat in FFXIV:ARR and it's the worst combat I've ever experience in a AAA mmo. Perhaps it will work if their combat is like FFXI it's been so long since I've played that game I don't remember it that well. Anyway, it's actually very very difficult to make good slow combat in an mmo, so they've got their work cut out for them.
ARR is a great example of contradiction in design in a number of areas. Others have explained how and why far better than I could, though, and anyway.... that's another topic.
I agree, though, when you have a slower-paced combat system, not only is "less more", less also costs more.
SE nailed it in FFXI, in my opinion.
I hope the Visionary folks can pull it off as well. Definitely some very interesting concepts they're working off of.
I just loved reading the combat post. Finally a return to complex, thoughtful and strategic combat.
Modern MMOs like GW2 have been so mind numbingly simplistic, easy and thoughtless. These games are dumbed down for the worst player and made so everyone wins. As we have seen games move more to twitch we have seen the combat get easier and easier. My guess is because the players that want this have no attention span.
The wonderful thing about Pantheon is that it is a niche game made for a known audience. There is no need to dumb it down or broaden the appeal to placate the ADHD audience that is constantly bored, lacks patience and demand every game made be easy so they can win to. Pantheon offers hope that we finally have a game made for real players not people who just spam forums demanding eye candy and simplistic systems. Made for player who want a challenge, who want group achievements and who want community. I have not been this excited abut a game since Vanguard was in development. Hopefully Pantheon can be as good as Vanguard.
a couple things EQ had that other games don't really have:
resource management. You didnt want to use all yur mana because recovery came slow. The key wa sgetting into the right rhythm to maximize down time
the second was aggro management. In most modern MMOs, the tank can, with little trouble, hold aggro so dps can go nuts. They couldnt in EQ. And if you were a caster in tough zones getting aggro could mean being 'one rounded'...the mob lands 4 hits on you in one round and you are dead.
I played a ranger. One job a ranger had was snaring mobs so they didnt run away and bring adds. Only problem was, snare was huge aggro. And could get resisted. You didnt want to cast too early because you would pull aggro, but if you waited to long you would run risk of a resist. Also Rangers had a couple short cast nukes they could mix in, but again aggro could be a concern (especially with a warrior tank...SKs and Pallies had it easier with aggro and SKs took care of snaring too)