Question for past ES game players

arieste

I'm not a fan of the single-player ES games, so i know very little about them.

 

My question for fans of Oblivion, Skyrim, etc.  is this:   is it a common thing in ES games to be unable to tell how much damage you're doing to something?   In pretty much every RPG i've ever played, when you use different skills, you can tell how much damage they actually did to a mob, how much they crit for, etc.   Just curious if it's normal for Elder Scrolls games to not have this.

Margulis

Yes it's normal for ES games.

arieste

So how you spec your character?   How do you pick which ability you take?  If you take it and you can't tell how much it has improved your character or how much it hits for version a different ability?  Just guess? 

Margulis

Originally posted by arieste
So how you spec your character?   How do you pick which ability you take?  If you take it and you can't tell how much it has improved your character or how much it hits for version a different ability?  Just guess? 

Are you honestly asking these questions?  Because it's coming across more like you're in a negative stance just looking to argue that the Elder Scrolls setup is dumb in your eyes.

arieste

Yes, i'm honestly asking.   Since it's something i've never seen before.  

 

 

Belgaraath

Originally posted by arieste

Yes, i'm honestly asking.   Since it's something i've never seen before.  

 

 

Whether they will show stats during combat at release I don't know, but the games were always about monitoring the health, magica, and stamina bars without know a specific number with every combat hit similar to other MMOs. I actually prefer that as it makes it feel more realistic. However, the descriptions themselves definitely include combat stats. See the following link  http://skillcalc.massyx.de/

Pyatra

Originally posted by Margulis

Originally posted by arieste
So how you spec your character?   How do you pick which ability you take?  If you take it and you can't tell how much it has improved your character or how much it hits for version a different ability?  Just guess? 

Are you honestly asking these questions?  Because it's coming across more like you're in a negative stance just looking to argue that the Elder Scrolls setup is dumb in your eyes.

To answer the question the skills and abilities tell you how much you do.  Also damage and HP in ES games are not inflated.  At level 10 I might have 300-400 HP and at level 50 I may only have a couple thousand.  They don't use crazy calculations to figure things out.  It's something like listed skill damage for that level +/* whatever modifiers from passive skills you have - mitigation/armor.  This is not accurate but just pointing out damage for most skills of the same level will be similar but it will depend on the added effects. 

 

If you just want to make a case for damage numbers then I would like to say who the crap cares if you're doing 63 damage or 65 damage the numbers are still going to look small because ES doesn't have to inflate them in this system, in most MMOs say your weapons says 2k dmg, but you are normally hitting for 9k dmg with no crit and no additional combat multipliers... because they use a balloon system for combat.  In ES if my weapon says it does 63, on a creature without damage mitigation... it does frickin 63.  Same with skills, and passive multipliers are in the 5-10% range.  So its simple elementary school math to determine something like that. 

 

Nitth

In Morrowind/Oblvion/skyrim I always got the sense of "how does the combat feel" rather than "am i maxing my output"...

arieste

Originally posted by keithian

Originally posted by arieste

Yes, i'm honestly asking.   Since it's something i've never seen before.  

 

 

Whether they will show stats during combat at release I don't know, but the games were always about monitoring the health, magica, and stamina bars without know a specific number with every combat hit similar to other MMOs. I actually prefer that as it makes it feel more realistic. However, the descriptions themselves definitely include combat stats. See the following link  http://skillcalc.massyx.de/

Thanks for the link... i didn't realize that this stuff was out and not under NDA.  So given the link, i can my question in a more specific way.  Take these two random skills taken from that skill calculator:

Ability 1:  Mark Target:   Your attacks ignore 50% of target's resistances. 

Ability 2:  Master Assassin:  Improves damage of attacks while invisible by 5%.

 

In any of the games that i am used to, i would know that my attack while invisible hits the monster for 1000 points of damage, so improving by 5% would allow me to hit the monster for 50 extra damage.  Same with 50% resistances.. i would know that a monsters resistances reduce my hits by 20%, so bypassing 50% of them would yield a 10% higher hit, etc.  (Just examples).  So given those two things, i can choose whichever one of those two abilities will yield more damage for my playstyle.  

 

I don't understand how i am supposed to make this decision when i don't know what i'm actually hitting for.  That's what i'm asking.  How did you make these decisions in these previous games?   

 

Belgaraath

Originally posted by arieste

Originally posted by keithian

Originally posted by arieste

Yes, i'm honestly asking.   Since it's something i've never seen before.  

 

 

Whether they will show stats during combat at release I don't know, but the games were always about monitoring the health, magica, and stamina bars without know a specific number with every combat hit similar to other MMOs. I actually prefer that as it makes it feel more realistic. However, the descriptions themselves definitely include combat stats. See the following link  http://skillcalc.massyx.de/

Thanks for the link... i didn't realize that this stuff was out and not under NDA.  So given the link, i can my question in a more specific way.  Take these two random skills taken from that skill calculator:

Ability 1:  Mark Target:   Your attacks ignore 50% of target's resistances. 

Ability 2:  Master Assassin:  Improves damage of attacks while invisible by 5%.

 

In any of the games that i am used to, i would know that my attack while invisible hits the monster for 1000 points of damage, so improving by 5% would allow me to hit the monster for 50 extra damage.  Same with 50% resistances.. i would know that a monsters resistances reduce my hits by 20%, so bypassing 50% of them would yield a 10% higher hit, etc.  (Just examples).  So given those two things, i can choose whichever one of those two abilities will yield more damage for my playstyle.  

 

I don't understand how i am supposed to make this decision when i don't know what i'm actually hitting for.  That's what i'm asking.  How did you make these decisions in these previous games?   

 

in the back of my head someone would say "Luke, let go, trust your feelings" lol.

muffins89

Originally posted by arieste
So how you spec your character?   How do you pick which ability you take?  If you take it and you can't tell how much it has improved your character or how much it hits for version a different ability?  Just guess? 

the spells have tooltips.  ex:  Sword Hack -  does X amount of damage.  numbers don't flash across your screen while playing.  just read the spell descriptions and choose from there.  

arieste

Originally posted by Pyatra

Originally posted by Margulis

Originally posted by arieste
So how you spec your character?   How do you pick which ability you take?  If you take it and you can't tell how much it has improved your character or how much it hits for version a different ability?  Just guess? 

Are you honestly asking these questions?  Because it's coming across more like you're in a negative stance just looking to argue that the Elder Scrolls setup is dumb in your eyes.

To answer the question the skills and abilities tell you how much you do.  Also damage and HP in ES games are not inflated.  At level 10 I might have 300-400 HP and at level 50 I may only have a couple thousand.  They don't use crazy calculations to figure things out.  It's something like listed skill damage for that level +/* whatever modifiers from passive skills you have - mitigation/armor.  This is not accurate but just pointing out damage for most skills of the same level will be similar but it will depend on the added effects. 

 

If you just want to make a case for damage numbers then I would like to say who the crap cares if you're doing 63 damage or 65 damage the numbers are still going to look small because ES doesn't have to inflate them in this system, in most MMOs say your weapons says 2k dmg, but you are normally hitting for 9k dmg with no crit and no additional combat multipliers... because they use a balloon system for combat.  In ES if my weapon says it does 63, on a creature without damage mitigation... it does frickin 63.  Same with skills, and passive multipliers are in the 5-10% range.  So its simple elementary school math to determine something like that. 

 

Aha, this is helpful.   So the numbers in combat are basically exactly what is written on abilities.  That makes sense.

 

And are there standards for criticals and such?  So that if i am using a weapon that does (for example) 20 damage with each hit, does that mean i will ALWAYS do 30 damage when i crit?  (assuming same mob/resistances, etc.).    

And resistances are standard?  So that if i take that "ignore 50% of resistance" ability, i know that instead of reducing my weapons damage by 5, resistances will now reduce it by 2.5?

 

Like you say, the systems in most other games are very complex (ballooned if you will), so most of these calculations can't be easily figured out.  If ES just keeps them so simple that "what you see is what you get", then it's quite good.

Pyatra

Originally posted by arieste

Originally posted by Pyatra

Originally posted by Margulis

Originally posted by arieste
So how you spec your character?   How do you pick which ability you take?  If you take it and you can't tell how much it has improved your character or how much it hits for version a different ability?  Just guess? 

Are you honestly asking these questions?  Because it's coming across more like you're in a negative stance just looking to argue that the Elder Scrolls setup is dumb in your eyes.

To answer the question the skills and abilities tell you how much you do.  Also damage and HP in ES games are not inflated.  At level 10 I might have 300-400 HP and at level 50 I may only have a couple thousand.  They don't use crazy calculations to figure things out.  It's something like listed skill damage for that level +/* whatever modifiers from passive skills you have - mitigation/armor.  This is not accurate but just pointing out damage for most skills of the same level will be similar but it will depend on the added effects. 

 

If you just want to make a case for damage numbers then I would like to say who the crap cares if you're doing 63 damage or 65 damage the numbers are still going to look small because ES doesn't have to inflate them in this system, in most MMOs say your weapons says 2k dmg, but you are normally hitting for 9k dmg with no crit and no additional combat multipliers... because they use a balloon system for combat.  In ES if my weapon says it does 63, on a creature without damage mitigation... it does frickin 63.  Same with skills, and passive multipliers are in the 5-10% range.  So its simple elementary school math to determine something like that. 

 

Aha, this is helpful.   So the numbers in combat are basically exactly what is written on abilities.  That makes sense.

 

And are there standards for criticals and such?  So that if i am using a weapon that does (for example) 20 damage with each hit, does that mean i will ALWAYS do 30 damage when i crit?  (assuming same mob/resistances, etc.).    

And resistances are standard?  So that if i take that "ignore 50% of resistance" ability, i know that instead of reducing my weapons damage by 5, resistances will now reduce it by 2.5?

 

Like you say, the systems in most other games are very complex (ballooned if you will), so most of these calculations can't be easily figured out.  If ES just keeps them so simple that "what you see is what you get", then it's quite good.

 

First, off the top of my head I actually don't remember the crit % or the base multiplier... I don think that's released info?  Maybe next Q&A we should as before open beta. 

 

For resistances it seems to be this way, there may be a soft cap to resistance and penetration but I doubt anyone even in beta has gotten to that point (I've only heard people talk about low levels but maybe people have played higher levels in beta).

 

FYI, Resistance is calculated the same for everyone but because of skill lines and which passives people buy, you end up with 2 clones (same race/weapon/armor/character level) running at you in PVP and one of the Goombas can be standard physical damage resistance while the next guy (exaggeration) stubs his toe and dies  but can take a Goku style magic spirit bomb to the face.  Just don't put all your eggs in one basket(skill line) and you can adapt through feeling combat, again since HP isn't over inflated it's really easy to feel how much you are doing to their HP bar.  I know this is really weird compared to most MMOs but its a system that becomes very easy to balance while making almost all the skills viable for different reasons.

Pyatra

Something I forgot to mention, for PVP several races have specific resistances like 15-30% (I don't actually know the numbers) fire/poison resistance, if you are about to push against a specific faction but not another, you may want for familiarize yourself with their racial resistances.. mostly for poison I think... I'm pretty sure you have to buy or make those sweet sweet poisons so there is time and cost in them, so it may save you some frustration to know who not to shoot with your super expensive/hard to harvest uber poison.

arieste

Originally posted by Pyatra 

First, off the top of my head I actually don't remember the crit % or the base multiplier... I don think that's released info?  Maybe next Q&A we should as before open beta. 

 

For resistances it seems to be this way, there may be a soft cap to resistance and penetration but I doubt anyone even in beta has gotten to that point (I've only heard people talk about low levels but maybe people have played higher levels in beta).

 

FYI, Resistance is calculated the same for everyone but because of skill lines and which passives people buy, you end up with 2 clones (same race/weapon/armor/character level) running at you in PVP and one of the Goombas can be standard physical damage resistance while the next guy (exaggeration) stubs his toe and dies  but can take a Goku style magic spirit bomb to the face.  Just don't put all your eggs in one basket(skill line) and you can adapt through feeling combat, again since HP isn't over inflated it's really easy to feel how much you are doing to their HP bar.  I know this is really weird compared to most MMOs but its a system that becomes very easy to balance while making almost all the skills viable for different reasons.

Oh i wasn't asking what the exact crit multiplier is, just whether it's somethign that is static and can be known.   This is all really weird to me.

 

I'm used to .. take ability 1, stab something, see how much you hit for, take ability 2, stab same thing, see how much you hit for, pick whichever ability yielded best result.     Having to do your own manual calculations for everything based on tooltips will be a bit of a change, but i'm good with excel.    

 

(oh and just fyi, i couldn't care less what happens in PvP, since i don't do PvP).

Pyatra

If its on the character sheet or they release the info for calculation of base crit than it should work the same and be easy to figure.

aesperus

Originally posted by arieste

Originally posted by Pyatra 

First, off the top of my head I actually don't remember the crit % or the base multiplier... I don think that's released info?  Maybe next Q&A we should as before open beta. 

For resistances it seems to be this way, there may be a soft cap to resistance and penetration but I doubt anyone even in beta has gotten to that point (I've only heard people talk about low levels but maybe people have played higher levels in beta).

FYI, Resistance is calculated the same for everyone but because of skill lines and which passives people buy, you end up with 2 clones (same race/weapon/armor/character level) running at you in PVP and one of the Goombas can be standard physical damage resistance while the next guy (exaggeration) stubs his toe and dies  but can take a Goku style magic spirit bomb to the face.  Just don't put all your eggs in one basket(skill line) and you can adapt through feeling combat, again since HP isn't over inflated it's really easy to feel how much you are doing to their HP bar.  I know this is really weird compared to most MMOs but its a system that becomes very easy to balance while making almost all the skills viable for different reasons.

Oh i wasn't asking what the exact crit multiplier is, just whether it's somethign that is static and can be known.   This is all really weird to me.

I'm used to .. take ability 1, stab something, see how much you hit for, take ability 2, stab same thing, see how much you hit for, pick whichever ability yielded best result.     Having to do your own manual calculations for everything based on tooltips will be a bit of a change, but i'm good with excel.    

(oh and just fyi, i couldn't care less what happens in PvP, since i don't do PvP).

For those types of calculations you definitely with have to ball-park it manually. There's enough of a tooltip (this skill does X dmg, this skill gives X crit chance), along w/ your character stat sheet, to get a good idea of the amount of damage you're doing.

However, keep in mind that this game isn't all about how high you can get your numbers. Skill synergy is extremely important in skyrim. You will want to be combining abilities that compliment each other, or cover your own weaknesses. Rather than just stacking abilities to a ton of damage.

Especially in PvE, mobs have AI (they don't obey standard aggro mechanics). It's not uncommon for mobs to peel off the tank and start attacking you if you're nuking them with all you have.

fistorm

They said they will allow as many skill RESETS as you want in their videos so that anyone can get OUT OF any BAD choices they feel they made.   So you'll have a lot of experimenting you can do to figure it all out.

 

I say have fun and pick unique skills that fit your gameplay,  since we don't have combat restrictions, something that works for one character might not work for another.   Take what you think would be most fun and fits your play...   you can always reset if the others side of the fence looks greener.

 

They also say skills are situational tools, not spam tools, and if you try to play like your spaming a skill, your going to have a really hard time in fights.   So think of your skils as not a main source of dps.  but your aiming and what to kill first strategies,  or your switching to healer from being a tank during combat that will most define your playing.

 

 

======== HOW TO USE YOUR SKILLS, HOW TO THINK ==========

Use your skills to turn tides of battles in certain direction, I think one can think of FFXI in a way and how the abilities were used for certain situations, you dint just spam all your skils at once,  You use them at the right time.   Then add in the ability to switch your JOB as often as you want in battle without penelties for doing so, your hotbar switches to a new skill set to fit the new job.   Think FFXIV how you switch your weapon from Tank to Healer but being able to do that in mid combat. 

==============================================

hope this helps

arieste

 

Originally posted by aesperusg.

However, keep in mind that this game isn't all about how high you can get your numbers. Skill synergy is extremely important in skyrim. You will want to be combining abilities that compliment each other, or cover your own weaknesses. Rather than just stacking abilities to a ton of damage.

Of course.  But regardless of what kind of ability it is - dmg, buff,  debuff, heal, etc.  - you still have to figure out exactly what it's doing for you and how it compares to your other choices.

Originally posted by fistorm

They said they will allow as many skill RESETS as you want in their videos so that anyone can get OUT OF any BAD choices they feel they made.   So you'll have a lot of experimenting you can do to figure it all out.

Yeah, resetting a bad ability is not what i'm worried about.  It's how to figure out that the ability is bad. 

 

I mean: If any ability gives you  +10 to your criticals.  Is that a good ability?   If i don't know how big my criticals are or how often they happen, i have nothing on which to base that decision.  (just random example, not ESO related)

Pyatra

Originally posted by arieste

 

Originally posted by aesperusg.

However, keep in mind that this game isn't all about how high you can get your numbers. Skill synergy is extremely important in skyrim. You will want to be combining abilities that compliment each other, or cover your own weaknesses. Rather than just stacking abilities to a ton of damage.

Of course.  But regardless of what kind of ability it is - dmg, buff,  debuff, heal, etc.  - you still have to figure out exactly what it's doing for you and how it compares to your other choices.

Originally posted by fistorm

They said they will allow as many skill RESETS as you want in their videos so that anyone can get OUT OF any BAD choices they feel they made.   So you'll have a lot of experimenting you can do to figure it all out.

Yeah, resetting a bad ability is not what i'm worried about.  It's how to figure out that the ability is bad. 

 

I mean: If any ability gives you  +10 to your criticals.  Is that a good ability?   If i don't know how big my criticals are or how often they happen, i have nothing on which to base that decision.  (just random example, not ESO related)

We will probably have to wait until open beta to get more information on critical calculations.

handlewithcare

you have a heath bar and the monster has a health bar.

richard garriott from shroud of the avatar came up with a graet idea that there is no barrs and numbers so not to break emursion and make it feel real so in shroud of the avatar you are going to bleed and the monster is going to bleed or your other open world pvp players and the more you bleed then you start getting crippled and then die.

like dayz looks like I think is the easiest to explain.

arieste

Originally posted by handlewithcare

you have a heath bar and the monster has a health bar.

richard garriott from shroud of the avatar came up with a graet idea that there is no barrs and numbers so not to break emursion and make it feel real so in shroud of the avatar you are going to bleed and the monster is going to bleed or your other open world pvp players and the more you bleed then you start getting crippled and then die.

like dayz looks like I think is the easiest to explain.

Immersion is cool.  

 

I find it intersting though that it's PvP games that are trying to create immersion when 99.9% of PvPers i've met in my 15 years of playing MMOs didn't give the slightest s**t about immersion.  

 

Immersion is usually something that PvE Questers and RPers like. PvPers just usually want to kill shit at random and yell "lulz" after.  Just seems like an odd thing to strive for given the target audience.