Grats to everyone who contributed seems it will be a success after all Keep up the good work.
And that is just one seller. I went with Best Buy because of my massive backstock of reward certificates, and it's also available from Target, Walmart, Gamestop, etc. etc.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
You can't afford it ? Don't buy. Nobody is forcing you to.
For most (if not all), it's not a problem of money. It's a problem of ethics, and attempting to hide micro transactions in order to buy essential parts of the base game in a collector edition (and in a pre-order too), and all this in a sub based game, and also all this when Firor repeatedly said in many interviews that while the game will have a shop, the core game will be available 100% with the $15 monthly fee.
That's the problem most of us have. And not a petty money problem.
My issue, is the unexplained about-face on what they once insisted was a vital component of the game's vision. Specifically the 'unexplained' part.
They insisted many times that faction locks were essential to maintaining the integrity and pride of the AvAvA system. Now they break that lock as a premium service, without addressing that in the context of their previous insistence that doing so would ruin that side of the game.
Which to me, implies they no longer care if the game is ruined.
Perceived value is fantastic for marketing and a great way to dupe people into paying more for something than the market dictates it worth. It's a valid sales tactic and it's used all the time. Hell, Zenimax is attempting to manipulate the perceived value with preorder and CE bonuses. It will probably work.
However, perceived value is still different than actual delivered value. There's a reason that consumer protection organizations exist. It's because consumers are considered susceptible to predatory practices that don't deliver adequate real value. However, the existence of such organizations that specialize in consumer protection shows that there is little faith that the majority of consumers can protect themselves. That's pretty much where perceived value fits.
But what is your solution besides letting the market sort it out?
Ditch the free market and dictate prices? Surely can't be what you propose?
Revive the age-old custom of haggling, whereby both seller and buyer state their starting proposals and they negotiate an agreement that's equitable to both parties.
It is, at worst, a faster (but more labor intensive) version of what you think the free market is.
but seriously, I have never heard enthusiasts of any other activity (gaming) complain so much about the costs. In relation to JUST ABOUT EVERY OTHER HOBBY, gaming is pretty damn cheap. Let's say, for example, you pay $80 for ESO and play it for 3 months. The first month is included, so that's $110 for 3 months, or $1.22/day. You can't even buy a cup of coffee for that. MMO gamers are very jaded. And I'm not trying to troll here, I just think we need to put things into perspective. They spent 200 million dollars making this game, that's not chump change.
First of all, it is not about the specific value: $80. I can easily afford it. My headphones alone cost over $1000. It is about the fact that they are withholding actual content, unless you pay a premium. It's like when Mass Effect charged for a DLC when the game wasn't even released yet. Furthermore, other hobbies and the costs associated with them have absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand. Are you trying to say that because having a boat costs thousands of dollars that gamers shouldn't complain that prices are evidently rising? I hope you see the flaw in your reasoning. Also, the whole argument about it costing 200 million is pointless, considering most of that is offered in the Standard Edition. What is alarming is the fact that a game that charges a box price, a subscription, will probably have paid expansions, is also charging for new races which are not simply cosmetic. How can they justify maintaining the subscription model when they charge even more for additional content?
I'd been thinking a lot about bottomfeeding lately, actually wrote about it a little last night, although I didn't publish, and I was going back and forth in my head about what you said in your initial post as to how I felt about it one way or another.
Then you said that you paid $1000 for a set of headphones and you completely lost me.
Who does that, and why? Are you Dr. Dre in disguise? What in the world would you need $1000 head phones for? Is that shit magical? Do they jack into your spine? Do they warn you when a butterfly is flapping its wings on the other side of the world? What? Are you listening to Yanni while sipping a hundred year old bourbon and beating your girlfriend over a dry-aged ribeye?
Seriously dude, anyone who would pay $1000 for something that they could get for as cheap as $10 can't complain about anyone charging anything for anything.
To paraphrase Digital Underground "You're not coming off. You're about as convincing as a preacher who smokes reefer."
Who does that, and why? Are you Dr. Dre in disguise? What in the world would you need $1000 head phones for? Is that shit magical? Do they jack into your spine? Do they warn you when a butterfly is flapping its wings on the other side of the world? What? Are you listening to Yanni while sipping a hundred year old bourbon and beating your girlfriend over a dry-aged ribeye?
This made my day.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
"People should do some research before posting insulting "holier than thou" stuff which only makes themself look bad."
He still looks bad or cheap. If you actually did your research you will know that some morons spend 10 grand on speaker cables when blind tests show they can't tell the diffference between that and lamp cord available for pennies per foot at a hardware store.
The fact that expensive stuff exists doesn't mean that spending alot on something is really worth it.
Back to the point though - This doesn't bother me at all. Zenimax has been making good games of late. If they want to charge a few bucks extra for a collectors edition - so what. You don't have to buy that one to have fun.
"At most it should be around 20$ /w 30 days included for such online titles as FFXIV did."
You get thirty days last I checked - and ffxiv is giving that deal because not enough people were buying it. <g> For good reason that game is chock full of 2003 technology..
You want a state of the art gaming experience from a top of the line company - you are going to have to pay for it. Progammers aren't cheap.
People should do some research before posting insulting "holier than thou" stuff which only makes themself look bad.
Just saying.
Wow Captain! That came out of nowhere. You guys friends or something?
Sorry, I still can't really buy into that response though because it comes off like a tactic to get me to say that the only people who would by that kind of thing are people that could and that people like that don't need to be coming in here and telling the rest of us, you know, the other 3 billion, that the only thing that we might have to do for entertainment for the next several months is overpriced.
Cause if I said that, I would, in effect, be advertising for people to purchase that exact product. Which is why I called shenanigans in the first place. Reverse psychology.
Your choice of words though, "holier than thou", were especially telling as they were clearly meant to incite. I'm feeling rather clear today though and so I am not going to play those reindeer games.
To anyone else reading, buy it if you want, don't buy it if you don't want. I'm gonna buy it probably because, A. it seems like its gonna be fun and B. I literally know people who work for that company and I don't mind tossing out a couple of bucks to support them for putting out something that I thought they should have put out years ago, pass or fail. Back to A. it seems like its going to be fun though and if it isn't, I won't recommend it to anyone else.
I really don't want to say anything good or bad about the whole thing though because of B.
One thing is for sure though, unless the only reason I am buying them is to immediately sell them to the idiot that is going to buy them from me for $1050 there is no way that I am paying $1000 for a pair of earphones. Not even if my job was to buy earphones. And even then he better be just outside the store cause gas is not cheap either.
I just know the value of things and there is no way that the materials or the technology used to put those materials together could come up with a product that could justify that price.
Once I bought a set of really expensive speaker wires because they had gold tips on them. And you know what? I never heard one bit of difference because those gold tips were connected to the same dumb copper and aluminum wire that my old metal tips had been connected to. My point? Chewbacca is a wookie and so you must acquit.
Second time this month I have had to use that defense.
Funny thing... I just clicked on your link (can't get enough Wish you were here) and the youtube ad that ran before playing it was a brand new TESO add... a sure sign that there's a connection there
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
People should do some research before posting insulting "holier than thou" stuff which only makes themself look bad.
Just saying.
That $10,000 on the auctions seems to be a typo. Those headphones apparently only sell for like $25 -$50.
That said I do own a pair of Sennheiser headphones that cost $200 so I appreciate the difference a pair of high-grade headphones make compared to the cheap stuff.
Computer games contrary to popular belief, is not a necessity to life. It is optional entertainment
There's no monopoly in MMO entertainment so whatever price a company wants to stick to it's title, good for them. I may think it's too expensive but it's really none of any of your concern really. Mainly because you're not entitled to dictate what a company does with a product they create.
If you're informed of a pricing scheme and you don't agree with it then opt out on it. Nobody is taking you for a ride when everything is up front. I don't even see a reason to have a lengthy discussion of entitlement about it tbh.
This is about principal, not about money. In my mind it is not acceptable to charge a monthly sub but block off a whole race. To those people who say that the race is only cosmetic; if that is true for this game then the game designers failed. Races should have their own areas, lore, and traits, etc.
A line was drawn in the sand. If gamers flock to a greedy publisher who will lock out content even though you pay a sub, then there is truly no hope left in this genre because there will be nothing stopping other publishers with doing the same.
pS: There is no issue with the sparkly mount or ring. Those type of vanity items are perfectly acceptable to cash grab.
This is about principal, not about money. In my mind it is not acceptable to charge a monthly sub but block off a whole race. To those people who say that the race is only cosmetic; if that is true for this game then the game designers failed. Races should have their own areas, lore, and traits, etc.
A line was drawn in the sand. If gamers flock to a greedy publisher who will lock out content even though you pay a sub, then there is truly no hope left in this genre because there will be nothing stopping other publishers with doing the same.
pS: There is no issue with the sparkly mount or ring. Those type of vanity items are perfectly acceptable to cash grab.
What principal? Did you create this product? Are you entitled to it? Are you entitled to tell a company what they should or shouldn't charge?
I seriously don't get it. I get the part where this is your hobby and you don't like added costs to it. Other than that nothing else really makes sense
TESO / Zenimax / Bethesda are ripping people off. Period.
Opinion. It's only a rip-off if someone thinks what they are giving isn't worth what they are charging, and clearly lots of people think it is.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
Are you entitled to tell a company what they should or shouldn't charge?
Actually, any customer for any product is entitled to that, and his best weapon is to not buy the product (or to never buy it again in case of recurrent costs like a subscription based product, a restaurant or similar things).
I don't know how it works in Denmark, but in my country, we can still say "screw you" to some business and stop giving them any money.
Doesn't work well here, because of lack of competition and complacency, being used to bad service thinking it's good,(people should travel more to see what real service is like) ..but that's another story.
I have to disagree. If you create an entertainment product you can and should charge whatever you like. You may not get many or any customers that way and it may be a retarded business model but that's really the company's problem. Not ours. Remember we are talking about games and not a 'needed' service.
The problem with this thread is, we have some passionate gamers which feels their "hobby" is being threatened by added costs. As you said vote with your wallet but to think we as gamers should actually have a say in what company charges is ludicrous. We didn't create this company (even if we helped pay for it) , we didn't create the product and at the end of the day. We should just walk away from it, if we don't feel is the value is worth the cost. We are not entitled to a damn thing other than freedom of choice as with any commercial product.
The "Zenimax is ripping people off' is specially hilarious in a sad way, considering it's coming from people who haven't paid a dime yet
Are you entitled to tell a company what they should or shouldn't charge?
Actually, any customer for any product is entitled to that, and his best weapon is to not buy the product (or to never buy it again in case of recurrent costs like a subscription based product, a restaurant or similar things).
I don't know how it works in Denmark, but in my country, we can still say "screw you" to some business and stop giving them any money.
We are not entitled to a damn thing other than freedom of choice as with any commercial product.
Which is exactly what I said in the post you are answering to. Sorry if I don't speak Danish to make it more obvious.
I'm pretty sure you said entitled, which is not really saying the same thing or even close, in any language. Unless you mean entitlement = freedom of choice which is a duh statement not really needed to be made.
TESO / Zenimax / Bethesda are ripping people off. Period.
Where's the hidden cost?
Is that an emotional comment? or coming from a place of logic
For the prices that TESO are going to be rolling out, I would argue that I can most likely get better value in another game. Either one of the other new 2014 offerings (Wildstar, The Repopulation, etc.), or, one of the F2P models already out there. TESO's pricing model seems quite ludicrous.
Entitlement means "what you deserve", to make it simple.
Well, generally when people are described as having a sense of entitlement, what is being talked about is what they *think* they deserve, which is not always the same thing as what they actually deserve.
Originally posted by jimbobfurley
For the prices that TESO are going to be rolling out, I would argue that I can most likely get better value in another game. Either one of the other new 2014 offerings (Wildstar, The Repopulation, etc.), or, one of the F2P models already out there. TESO's pricing model seems quite ludicrous.
Which part is ludicrous? The sub fee is at the industry standard rate, the standard edition of the game is at the normal industry rate for a new game, and the collector's edition costs less than most collector's editions.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
And the word "sense" isn't used in any of our posts.
It's the internet, people are lazy. Those who don't appreciate the difference tend to simply use the word entitlement by itself when what they are actually referring to is the sense of. Not saying that you were, but people using it in a derogatory way likely have been.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
And the word "sense" isn't used in any of our posts.
It's the internet, people are lazy. Those who don't appreciate the difference tend to simply use the word entitlement by itself when what they are actually referring to is the sense of. Not saying that you were, but people using it in a derogatory way likely have been.
The internet is also filled with bored contrarians, often confused with trolls but equally annoying. I guess the best bet is to ignore them the same way
Comments
And that is just one seller. I went with Best Buy because of my massive backstock of reward certificates, and it's also available from Target, Walmart, Gamestop, etc. etc.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
My issue, is the unexplained about-face on what they once insisted was a vital component of the game's vision. Specifically the 'unexplained' part.
They insisted many times that faction locks were essential to maintaining the integrity and pride of the AvAvA system. Now they break that lock as a premium service, without addressing that in the context of their previous insistence that doing so would ruin that side of the game.
Which to me, implies they no longer care if the game is ruined.
Well, 4-4-2014 is coming up and tomorrow is 2-1-2014 with the NDA still in effect, and the CE already up for sale.
To me that says enough.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
Revive the age-old custom of haggling, whereby both seller and buyer state their starting proposals and they negotiate an agreement that's equitable to both parties.
It is, at worst, a faster (but more labor intensive) version of what you think the free market is.I'd been thinking a lot about bottomfeeding lately, actually wrote about it a little last night, although I didn't publish, and I was going back and forth in my head about what you said in your initial post as to how I felt about it one way or another.
Then you said that you paid $1000 for a set of headphones and you completely lost me.
Who does that, and why? Are you Dr. Dre in disguise? What in the world would you need $1000 head phones for? Is that shit magical? Do they jack into your spine? Do they warn you when a butterfly is flapping its wings on the other side of the world? What? Are you listening to Yanni while sipping a hundred year old bourbon and beating your girlfriend over a dry-aged ribeye?
Seriously dude, anyone who would pay $1000 for something that they could get for as cheap as $10 can't complain about anyone charging anything for anything.
To paraphrase Digital Underground "You're not coming off. You're about as convincing as a preacher who smokes reefer."
I call shenanigans. Reverse psychology.
Exactly, BIG red flag
This made my day.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
Gaming companies went too far when they started asking a full box price for a subscription based MMORPG.
At most it should be around 20$ /w 30 days included for such online titles as FFXIV did.
With 55€ box price you are basically paying 40€ to gain access for 30 days and any month after that chocks up an extra 15€.
"People should do some research before posting insulting "holier than thou" stuff which only makes themself look bad."
He still looks bad or cheap. If you actually did your research you will know that some morons spend 10 grand on speaker cables when blind tests show they can't tell the diffference between that and lamp cord available for pennies per foot at a hardware store.
The fact that expensive stuff exists doesn't mean that spending alot on something is really worth it.
Back to the point though - This doesn't bother me at all. Zenimax has been making good games of late. If they want to charge a few bucks extra for a collectors edition - so what. You don't have to buy that one to have fun.
"At most it should be around 20$ /w 30 days included for such online titles as FFXIV did."
You get thirty days last I checked - and ffxiv is giving that deal because not enough people were buying it. <g> For good reason that game is chock full of 2003 technology..
You want a state of the art gaming experience from a top of the line company - you are going to have to pay for it. Progammers aren't cheap.
Wow Captain! That came out of nowhere. You guys friends or something?
Sorry, I still can't really buy into that response though because it comes off like a tactic to get me to say that the only people who would by that kind of thing are people that could and that people like that don't need to be coming in here and telling the rest of us, you know, the other 3 billion, that the only thing that we might have to do for entertainment for the next several months is overpriced.
Cause if I said that, I would, in effect, be advertising for people to purchase that exact product. Which is why I called shenanigans in the first place. Reverse psychology.
Your choice of words though, "holier than thou", were especially telling as they were clearly meant to incite. I'm feeling rather clear today though and so I am not going to play those reindeer games.
To anyone else reading, buy it if you want, don't buy it if you don't want. I'm gonna buy it probably because, A. it seems like its gonna be fun and B. I literally know people who work for that company and I don't mind tossing out a couple of bucks to support them for putting out something that I thought they should have put out years ago, pass or fail. Back to A. it seems like its going to be fun though and if it isn't, I won't recommend it to anyone else.
I really don't want to say anything good or bad about the whole thing though because of B.
One thing is for sure though, unless the only reason I am buying them is to immediately sell them to the idiot that is going to buy them from me for $1050 there is no way that I am paying $1000 for a pair of earphones. Not even if my job was to buy earphones. And even then he better be just outside the store cause gas is not cheap either.
I just know the value of things and there is no way that the materials or the technology used to put those materials together could come up with a product that could justify that price.
Once I bought a set of really expensive speaker wires because they had gold tips on them. And you know what? I never heard one bit of difference because those gold tips were connected to the same dumb copper and aluminum wire that my old metal tips had been connected to. My point? Chewbacca is a wookie and so you must acquit.
Second time this month I have had to use that defense.
Funny thing... I just clicked on your link (can't get enough Wish you were here) and the youtube ad that ran before playing it was a brand new TESO add... a sure sign that there's a connection there
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
That $10,000 on the auctions seems to be a typo. Those headphones apparently only sell for like $25 -$50.
That said I do own a pair of Sennheiser headphones that cost $200 so I appreciate the difference a pair of high-grade headphones make compared to the cheap stuff.
Computer games contrary to popular belief, is not a necessity to life. It is optional entertainment
There's no monopoly in MMO entertainment so whatever price a company wants to stick to it's title, good for them. I may think it's too expensive but it's really none of any of your concern really. Mainly because you're not entitled to dictate what a company does with a product they create.
If you're informed of a pricing scheme and you don't agree with it then opt out on it. Nobody is taking you for a ride when everything is up front. I don't even see a reason to have a lengthy discussion of entitlement about it tbh.
27 pages on this ? Really ? Not necessary.
TESO / Zenimax / Bethesda are ripping people off. Period.
Where's the hidden cost?
Is that an emotional comment? or coming from a place of logic
This is about principal, not about money. In my mind it is not acceptable to charge a monthly sub but block off a whole race. To those people who say that the race is only cosmetic; if that is true for this game then the game designers failed. Races should have their own areas, lore, and traits, etc.
A line was drawn in the sand. If gamers flock to a greedy publisher who will lock out content even though you pay a sub, then there is truly no hope left in this genre because there will be nothing stopping other publishers with doing the same.
pS: There is no issue with the sparkly mount or ring. Those type of vanity items are perfectly acceptable to cash grab.
What principal? Did you create this product? Are you entitled to it? Are you entitled to tell a company what they should or shouldn't charge?
I seriously don't get it. I get the part where this is your hobby and you don't like added costs to it. Other than that nothing else really makes sense
Opinion. It's only a rip-off if someone thinks what they are giving isn't worth what they are charging, and clearly lots of people think it is.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
Doesn't work well here, because of lack of competition and complacency, being used to bad service thinking it's good,(people should travel more to see what real service is like) ..but that's another story.
I have to disagree. If you create an entertainment product you can and should charge whatever you like. You may not get many or any customers that way and it may be a retarded business model but that's really the company's problem. Not ours. Remember we are talking about games and not a 'needed' service.
The problem with this thread is, we have some passionate gamers which feels their "hobby" is being threatened by added costs. As you said vote with your wallet but to think we as gamers should actually have a say in what company charges is ludicrous. We didn't create this company (even if we helped pay for it) , we didn't create the product and at the end of the day. We should just walk away from it, if we don't feel is the value is worth the cost. We are not entitled to a damn thing other than freedom of choice as with any commercial product.
The "Zenimax is ripping people off' is specially hilarious in a sad way, considering it's coming from people who haven't paid a dime yet
I'm pretty sure you said entitled, which is not really saying the same thing or even close, in any language. Unless you mean entitlement = freedom of choice which is a duh statement not really needed to be made.
For the prices that TESO are going to be rolling out, I would argue that I can most likely get better value in another game. Either one of the other new 2014 offerings (Wildstar, The Repopulation, etc.), or, one of the F2P models already out there. TESO's pricing model seems quite ludicrous.
Well, generally when people are described as having a sense of entitlement, what is being talked about is what they *think* they deserve, which is not always the same thing as what they actually deserve.
Which part is ludicrous? The sub fee is at the industry standard rate, the standard edition of the game is at the normal industry rate for a new game, and the collector's edition costs less than most collector's editions.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
It's the internet, people are lazy. Those who don't appreciate the difference tend to simply use the word entitlement by itself when what they are actually referring to is the sense of. Not saying that you were, but people using it in a derogatory way likely have been.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
The internet is also filled with bored contrarians, often confused with trolls but equally annoying. I guess the best bet is to ignore them the same way