Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
How EQN Landmark killed the idea of NDAs for good
Elikal
Member UncommonPosts: 7,912
Quote Massively: (quoting Dave Georgeson from SOE)
"From the outside, it looks as if the money-back guarantee coupled with the drop in NDA was a significant boost to Landmark interest and Founder's Pack sales. Georgeson corroborated this, saying that sales surged after the satisfaction guarantee was offered and that "when [SOE] dropped the NDA, [sales] went nuts." He added, "Once people realized we were proud of our creation instead of hiding it behind a fence, it took a lot of the 'considers' and convinced them to try it."
This. Simply this. If a game is good, the game speaks for itself. If a company has faith in their game, there is no reason to hide it. The proof is, as usual, in the pudding.
I guess that permanently and profoundly finishes the idea of NDAs.
No matter how Landmark turns out for me, it gains a lot of respect points in SOE, as the entire totally open debate about all issues in their Alpha forum. They don't suga coat anything, they speak how EVERY issue came to be and what they do about it. THAT is how I want MMO development to be. 100% transparent.
I guess that is one of the most important changes in MMO development and I hope this soon makes NDAs a thing of the past. They NEVER served the good of MMOs development ever.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Comments
Did honesty kill the idea of making shit up ? just because some people see the value in the truth or not trying to hide their current mistakes doesn't mean it's going to catch on.
Game companies will always have little to no faith in peoples ability to think rational and not go chicken little of games. Forums will always prove them right.
Well there is proof and there is success. Alas, they are usually not the same.
To the logician it is proof, but if it is a succes - if companies adapt, is open to be seen. It hinges to a degree what we, the customers, allow them to do. If we keep buying hush hush secret games, it's our own fault games remain mediocre, when we continue to support that.
But intellectually speaking the proof is made and for me the "debate" whether NDA helps or harms is solved and finished. Yes some people will rant and claim otherwise, but for me the debate is over and solved.
Alas, humans are slow to adapt to what logic has proven. And so the mills of history go slowly.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Wrong, wrong, wrong.
They took my money, I should be able to talk about my experience as a customer. Yes, a customer. Plus, this doesn't even address the fact that Landmark a social/building game. There's not epic storyline they're hiding.
NDA is a good thing in many cases, but in this game it made no sense since they already have our money.
If in 1982 we played with the current mentality, we would have burned down all the pac man games since the red ghost was clearly OP. Instead we just got better at the game.
Yeah I agree in both cases. Once a game starts to take your money it should be at the point where you can talk about it openly.
Landmark also isn't a typical mmo. It's not even all that complex. There's no content, gear,skill etc to balance and none of that for people to freak out over. We're not going to see any OMG such and such a class is OP!!!
So sure they took the NDA down really early, but when you have nothing really to hide while you work on it/test it, you don't need any systems to hide it.
You have to keep in mind that this whole project was sold as a "collaborative effort" with the (potential) customers. So doing something else would have been a bit weird since they want people to get involved and buy it. And what would they have done to NDA breachers? Ban them? Give them a refund? Once you involve money in there, things have a tendency to get complicated, and while I'm not quite good in law related matters, I'm not sure those NDA are something that they would want to defend in court,etc..
Also, it's not the standard MMO, with storyline, quests, etc. so it's easier to open up and show everything you have to offer, since most of it is simply "tools" that players will use to "have fun" in the game. You won't see people come in forums discussing about story, plots, that quest that was not fun or poorly written even if it was only there as a placeholder for the real one,etc.. there are no such things like that in this game.
That you can get a refund if not satisfied is also interesting, we just need to see how it goes when someone actually asks for one (might end up more difficult to get it than they make it sound..).
While I agree this is a nice change from what is now becoming the norm, and coming from SoE, that's even more interesting.. I also keep my reserve and stay cautiously optimistic about all this (they are currently selling access to an Alpha, that will be a F2P game...).
Let us wait and see how they handle the "real" game (EQNext). I'm not convinced they will go with the exact same approach even if I hope so !
You can't have NDA's anymore. The availability of streaming technology for the average user has practically made it impossible.
People started streaming before the NDA was lifted and there's simply no way to control that.
You do realize that's like saying "We can't have laws anymore. There's no way to control people committing crimes."
OP jumped the gun a bit, Landmark not only took money for the alpha privilege but their entire marketing strategy is to develop "with" the customers, whatever that means. An NDA serves the purpose those who put it in place wants it to. Same goes for the lifting of it. I have no idea where all these armchair developers and marketing specialists with their claims of "NDA is for..." come from.
What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot
Nope I don't see the comparison
Because I'm a nice girl, I'll explain it to you. Your argument is that NDAs are defunct because people are readily able to break it. The ability people have to break agreements or rules does not and should not have any effect on why the rule is in place and certainly not on rule enforcement.
Does the existence of streaming mean that confidentiality or NDA agreements with a company or the government are defunct because "we can't have them anymore" because Internet?
Of course not.
The point is more about futility I think. NDA breaks are so prominent that for the most part if someone wants information that the NDA should prevent they can get it anyway. It's silly to enforce and can even be punishing to people who legitimately follow the NDAs (for example the watermarks put in place during NDAs are very distracting).
NDAs are mainly put in place for two reasons:
1. So press can reveal information about the game as exclusive info which in turn companies hope increase positive influence about the game towards the press (since those exclusives are selling copies or giving them traffic) and also so they can reveal only what they specifically want revealed about the game and nothing negative as press can be under specific NDAs about certain things too.
This is an outdated reason IMO as there is so much gaming press at the moment and NDAs are going to be broken anyway so the information is readily available anyway. It's also very outdated because the best press you can possibly get is releasing the game to the mass market since streaming sites like Twitch and video sites like Youtube. This is clearly evidenced with Landmark.
2. To prevent negative perception about the game by the public due to bugs and early states of features.
This is probably the only good reason for a NDA, though I think if you have a solid game on your hand people are willing to overlook bugs and at this point most people are savvy enough to understand Alpha and Beta stages are going to have to several bugs and technical issues associated with them.
Not to be a stick in the mud, but dropping the NDA on a game in alpha that basically showcases minecraft with nicer graphics isn't earth shattering.
Now, if they do the same with EQN the actual MMO, then it will represent a pretty big shift in attitude by a big player in the industry (indies have been doing it forever). But I won't be surprised if all the people praising SOE for what amounts to a symbolic gesture of openness get a big NDA sticker when EQN is in Alpha / Closed Beta. But, who knows it really could be a shift in attitude.
there is a landmark forum
My guess is Landmark will kill SoE instead of merely an NDA. Very boring game.
The internet is a different beast to be compared to real life law breaking for several reasons. Not only that but we are talking about information and the ability to keep things under lock and key. You simply can't anymore, that's the point. Sooner or later game companies will realize it's futile to even try and there will be no more NDA's.
Comparing that to laws in general, is not even close to a good comparison. We are talking about trying to keep things quiet and secret in the age of information. It doesn't even begin to make sense to make comparisons to other more serious matters even if you want to bring up national security etc.
If they drop the NDA for EQN in early beta I will be impressed. Dropping the NDA on whats basically minecraft EQ edition is nothing to get excited about. Especially when the whole project is supposed to be developed With the players.
OP is as usual sensationalizing something minor that will have no impact on NDAs in future games. Drop the NDA on EQN 8 months + prior to release, then maybe that will be worth getting excited over.
I have a feeling from what I've tried and seen so far, Landmark will be a lot more popular than EQN but that's another matter
The internet is used for real life law breaking, how is it a different beast? NDAs exist in a myriad of forms, "serious" or not and for many different reasons. The basis is the same, it's not up to the "armchair developers and marketing specialists" to determine the futility of an NDA. It's up to them. And your argument has one fatal flaw. Tell me, of the games in development right now with an NDA, exactly how many details do we have of it?
Official releases, speculation and maybe a few odd tidbits?
Seems like they can hold plenty of things under lock and key despite the Internet, don't you think? If your assumption were true, no one would be awaiting NDA drops right now. The internet would be flooded with illicit videos. "Sooner or later game companies will realize it's futile to try" given that it's done nothing.
But that's not the case, is it?
While I agree NDAs are stupid if you have a good product.
So is selling (and especially buying) alpha access to a game which will be free to play on release.
the game should be cheaper to purchase when its incomplete, than complete. not the other way around :S
My blog:
It will happen i truly believe it. Streaming is still becoming more and more popular and it will get to a point where it will be impossible more than it is now to try and uphold an NDA. With that, the fall of it will inevitable happen
LOL They dropped the NDA because they got to work went on twitch and saw over 50 live feeds + the youtube postings.
The cat was out of the bag, and they do not have the time or staff to chase down everyone that was ignoring the NDA.
I was in game at time, on the forums, and watching the twitch feeds... it was basically an oh shit moment.
The refund offer mysteriously appeared immediately after the lawsuit discussions began over Vanguard and Free Realms
continuing to create and sell item mall packages even after publishing sunsetting the games, carried onto the Landmark
forums.
Also was funny as soon as the lawsuit talk started they immediately suspended item mall sales of the new packs they just posted on all their sunsetting games.
Don't go thinking for a second that the SOE management team are good guys, they are opportunist and ego-maniacs at the best.
IMO the best was talk about selling special outfits and mounts to celebrate the sunset of our beloved games.
Blink I mean seriously.
@StonesDK and Arataki
the internet making NDA's impractical is not just relevant to computer games, its a very "real life" issue.
I recomend you learn about the streisand effect, its quite hilarious and prominant
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect
My blog:
In one, the public already knows but only pay attention after someone inadvertently gives away how valuable that public information actually was. The other, private parties sign agreements not to disclose private information they will have access to publicly. If a leak happens, there is no cover up after the fact. There is pursuit of justice. You'll have stuff like "report claims to have all the details of the Iphone 6" kind of leaks or what have you, but that's pretty rare. Not quite comparable I think?
Ah, so it goes from "You can't have an NDA anymore" to "I believe eventually, my opinion land." Fair enough. I believe the law will eventually catch up completely to the internet, making leaks more painful for the aforementioned streamers or game companies will change how they do closed betas.
Well... I didn't know about the mall packages and the other things... that sort of sheds light on why they did all this.