Lack of Combat Feedback. What's the point?

arieste

As proof that this is not NDA-breaking, this review talks about how there is absolutely no combat feedback in the game.  There are no numbers telling you how much you're hitting a mob for, etc.  

 

This seems extremely counter-intuitive.  One one hand, one can say "well,the game is not for power-players, it's not for people crunching numbers to figure out best ability loadout.  We leave this out because we want immersion!"

 

I can totally buy that setup.   

 

But.. if that's they way you're going, then why are you giving us all these abilities that have tiny number differentials.   Example (taken from this site):

Ability 1:  

• +5% damage when invisible or crouched.

Ability 2:

 

• Targets in front of caster take 1 magic damage per second for 10 seconds.

Ability 3:

 

+30% attack speed (heavy and light)

 

 

If you don't want people crunching numbers and trying to figure out DPS, why the hell are you giving us these abilities that result in miniscule increases that would ONLY be evident if you COULD see the actual numbers?!

 

I mean, if it's about immersion and not about crunching numbers, should the abilities just read "Increases damage when invisible",  "Damages target in front of you".

 

 

The way the have the game set up, you basically need to get an excel spreadsheet and manually calculate what you're doing with every single skill in order to figure out which one is best.   How the heck is this any more immersive than having combat numbers log available?  I mean, the game is obviously making these calculations, so the numbers exist, they're just not available to players.

 

 

Anyone else think that they need to pick a side?  Either go for immersion and get rid of these tiny numbers or keep the numbers and let us see the actual results of using them in combat.  The in-between state is like the worst of both worlds - you still HAVE TO think about numbers and make decisions, yet you don't have enough information to make those decisions well.   

nerovipus32

I suppose you want a dps meter in there also? So many people calling ESO a clone and yet they complain when it's not following the traditional EQ/WOW mechanics. The irony is delicious.

adam_nox

Setting aside whether I want combat feedback details or not, I do not find their stance inconsistent with the game.

 

It's not practical to leave off certain details in perks or talents, otherwise some talents would appear to do the same thing when they do not. 

Unknown

Any devs who thinks the numbers in their game won't be reverse engineered is suffering from hubris.  Its just that simple.

 

I suppose you could make some osrt of argument about the masses and a little knowledge being a dangerous thing.

 

Meh, smart people will reverse engineer your system.  They will do it everytime.  What the masses would do with prevalent numbers,  Idunno.  I don't think I care.  Eff em.

rojoArcueid

I was surprised how good the combat felt this weekend beta and all you are worried about is how you didnt see damage numbers floating on the screen?

Its actually good that those numbers dont show. That would break the immersion i get from an Elder Scrolls game.

I think the numbers on the skill tooltips are there to show the effects of the skill and nothing else. I dont see the problem there. Weapons have their damage stats and your character screen has your character damage stats too.

 

Maybe the skill tooltips show effects based on those character and weapon numbers? who knows, but i still dont see anything wrong with that. Hopefully this game wont become a gear score based, rendering player skill useless...

Gdemami

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Originally posted by arieste

But.. if that's they way you're going, then why are you giving us all these abilities that have tiny number differentials.

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So you can forge your own play style, your own combat build.

Rusque

They are going to allow mods of the interface, whether that means DPS meter are incoming along with procs and timers I can't say.

But if they're allowed, you can be sure they're going to exist quite soon.

 

That being said, I would very much like to see the lack of feedback become more common in games, I'm not entirely thrilled by number crunchers because they suck so much fun out of the game. "Well this ability decreases overall dps by X amount and therefore regardless of how fun it is all groups will require you to take this ability called "stick poke" instead. Bleh.

I mean, the onus is always on developers to create balanced abilities where there are positives and negatives to each, but no matter how much they try, those spreadsheeters will find a way to squeak out those extra few numbers and put the "this build is optimal" stamp on it.

And for the record, I do what I can to avoid those players, but it's really really pervasive at this point.

Tamanous

This is a shot in the dark but maybe they still have 2 months to tweak it out.

 

Maybe they wont, maybe they will but unless you plan on being hired as a developer with them I do not see why you should worry about it until retail.

 

I would imagine players will have access to numbers anyway so they may as well list the damage. How things scale can be tested in game. The game supports add-ons so there will be no avoiding being able to really crunch numbers. I do not think anyone outside of internal testing knows if raid style min/maxing is even needed or not anyway.

 

It is not like you can use the numbers against classes like in Wow. One group may be very trinity in build and another nothing but hybrids yet both can succeed in a boss fight. How do you put a class to a spread sheet when they aren't actual classes to begin with?

jazz.be

Has there been any word on support for addons? Or a framework for addons?

deakon

They want the game to look like an elder scrolls game when people load it up, the don't want people to be off put by numbers all over the place, this is admiral when considering half (maybe more) the target audience.

 

They are also allowing full addon support, so if you do want (like me) more info on your screen you can

deakon

Originally posted by jazz.be

Has there been any word on support for addons? Or a framework for addons?

Yes addons are confirmed

alterfenix

To be fair I can understand the reason behind showing for how much you hit in games such as WoW - it can be helpful there i.e for raiding and because of other game mechanics.

However in case of TES games I never really saw the purpose of that. The difference between killing and getting killed is how fast health bar goes down regardless if you hit or are being hit for X, 10 * X or 1 000 000 * X. And TESO is no different here really.

the420kid

they have a section built in the UI for Mods..  This means there will be damage meters there will be proc watchers etc etc

jazz.be

Originally posted by deakon

Originally posted by jazz.be

Has there been any word on support for addons? Or a framework for addons?

Yes addons are confirmed

Then I suppose it's in the hands of the community. Which is a good thing btw. 

Octagon7711

Sure, why do it yourself when you can get your paying customers to do it for free.

jazz.be

Originally posted by Octagon7711
Sure, why do it yourself when you can get your paying customers to do it for free.

It's not like the customers will develop an extra layer in the game. The information is probably already there. The community will just bring it to the front the way they see fits best. Who knows it better than the players themselves.

arieste

Originally posted by nerovipus32
I suppose you want a dps meter in there also? So many people calling ESO a clone and yet they complain when it's not following the traditional EQ/WOW mechanics. The irony is delicious.

What do EQ/WoW mechanics have to do with it?    Pretty much every RPG since D&D has been based on the principle of "you hit monster for 17 points of damage".   Knowing that this is how much you've hit the monster for has nothing to do either EQ or with WoW.

 

I find a lack of consistency between the game asking me to make a selection of weapons and skills based on specific numbers and the same game not providing me with the result of said selection.   How the hell am i supposed to know whether "+10% to critical strikes" is better than "+2% to normal strikes" if the game doesn't tell me how much a normal strike is OR how much a critical strike is?     

 

As I said, if the game was going for full immersion and avoiding numbers, this would be fine,but then don't give me these 10% here and 2% here numbers.  They're completely pointless when the game doesn't allow you to evaluate the result of your selections.   Just word your abilities as "improves your critical strikes" and avoid numbers altogether - if that is what you're going for.   

Volgore

ESO is about the last game that needs dps-meters, parsers and all the elitist-kiddos that come with all that epeen-bs. Next thing is that you will see them screaming for a "votekick option in groups" on the forums.

If this will hit the game, i already feel sorry for those who buy it for the freedom of building your own character.

Osmanthus

I think the NDA is still in effect. However, I will say that the premise of the OP is incorrect.

arieste

Originally posted by Osmanthus
I think the NDA is still in effect. However, I will say that the premise of the OP is incorrect.

Nothing in my post is under NDA.  I've listed my sources for the information and aside from the commentation clearly tellingyou that htere is no combat feedback, you can clearly see this from every video of combat available online.  (I also played beta myselt, but i'm not including any additional - under NDA - info in my posts)

Latronus

Originally posted by DMKano

Originally posted by alterfenix

To be fair I can understand the reason behind showing for how much you hit in games such as WoW - it can be helpful there i.e for raiding and because of other game mechanics.

However in case of TES games I never really saw the purpose of that. The difference between killing and getting killed is how fast health bar goes down regardless if you hit or are being hit for X, 10 * X or 1 000 000 * X. And TESO is no different here really.

Huh?

How fast the HP bar goes down is directly a result of damage number values - it's all there - it's just not shown.

If you get hit for X=30 dmg - and you have 100hp = 1/3 HP bar roughtly, 10x= 1 shot dead. It makes a huge difference knowing the exact numbers. If you know that a boss hits for 300dmg and your tank has less than 300HP with crap mitigation, you know not to try period.

I honestly don't understand your argument at all.

 

While I do agree with you, I am both glad and concerned about not having the actual numbers.

Glad for a couple reasons.   One, it feels more like an ES game.  Two, it keeps the min/masers at bay at least until the addons start coming out and that keeps the jack holes at bay telling people the "correct" build for a little while at least.  

Concerned because without the combat logs, we won't know with certainty if the abilities are working as advertised.  In other words, if the ability says you get a 10% damage bonus! is it really 10%, or is it 7.5%?  Then, if we have the numbers, the jack holes will come outta the woodwork and start telling folks how to play, but then they will do that regardless now won't they?

I personally like not seeing the numbers just because it feels like I'm playing an ES game.  I will let those that play MMOs as a job worry about the rest because there are always some that do in every game.

Jyiiga

We know there will be addons. However, we have no idea how much of the framework is going to be open to us. Honestly, I hope they limit it.

I would be very happy to step back and not have a game require me to go out and download a bunch of garbage, to remain competative in pvp. If they allow everyone to go down the WoW path of thinking, dps meters, debuff meters, scrolling combat text... I might be tempted to buy the console version to avoid that assery.

arieste

Originally posted by Volgore

ESO is about the last game that needs dps-meters, parsers and all the elitist-kiddos that come with all that epeen-bs. Next thing is that you will see them screaming for a "votekick option in groups" on the forums.

If this will hit the game, i already feel sorry for those who buy it for the freedom of building your own character.

I wasn't suggesting the addition of either of the things you've listed.  

 

What i was talking about is the very thing you mention - "freedom of building your own character".   I'd like to be able to make informed skill selections.    The skill descriptions currently provide 50% of the required information.    What i'm saying is that either 0% or 100% of information needs to be provided.    If you're going to tell me that an abilitiy improves my critical strike by 10%, then i need to know how much damage a critical strike does in the first place.   Otherwise, what am i supposed to do with that 10% number?     If you're not going to tell me how much critical strikes hit for, then don't tell me they get improved by 10%, since i can't make any kind of useful calculation using that 10%.    (Just an example)

Latronus

Originally posted by arieste

Originally posted by nerovipus32
I suppose you want a dps meter in there also? So many people calling ESO a clone and yet they complain when it's not following the traditional EQ/WOW mechanics. The irony is delicious.

What do EQ/WoW mechanics have to do with it?    Pretty much every RPG since D&D has been based on the principle of "you hit monster for 17 points of damage".   Knowing that this is how much you've hit the monster for has nothing to do either EQ or with WoW.

 

I find a lack of consistency between the game asking me to make a selection of weapons and skills based on specific numbers and the same game not providing me with the result of said selection.   How the hell am i supposed to know whether "+10% to critical strikes" is better than "+2% to normal strikes" if the game doesn't tell me how much a normal strike is OR how much a critical strike is?     

 

As I said, if the game was going for full immersion and avoiding numbers, this would be fine,but then don't give me these 10% here and 2% here numbers.  They're completely pointless when the game doesn't allow you to evaluate the result of your selections.   Just word your abilities as "improves your critical strikes" and avoid numbers altogether - if that is what you're going for.   

The smart ass answer is it depends on how many times you crit and then for how much.  But in all seriousness, if add ons are confirmed, I haven't researched it myself, then just wait and I'm sure someone that is a die hard raider/PVPer will create an add on that will provide said numbers.  And I doubt it'll take very long before something hits the street.

arieste

Originally posted by Latronus

Originally posted by arieste

Originally posted by nerovipus32
I suppose you want a dps meter in there also? So many people calling ESO a clone and yet they complain when it's not following the traditional EQ/WOW mechanics. The irony is delicious.

What do EQ/WoW mechanics have to do with it?    Pretty much every RPG since D&D has been based on the principle of "you hit monster for 17 points of damage".   Knowing that this is how much you've hit the monster for has nothing to do either EQ or with WoW.

 

I find a lack of consistency between the game asking me to make a selection of weapons and skills based on specific numbers and the same game not providing me with the result of said selection.   How the hell am i supposed to know whether "+10% to critical strikes" is better than "+2% to normal strikes" if the game doesn't tell me how much a normal strike is OR how much a critical strike is?     

 

As I said, if the game was going for full immersion and avoiding numbers, this would be fine,but then don't give me these 10% here and 2% here numbers.  They're completely pointless when the game doesn't allow you to evaluate the result of your selections.   Just word your abilities as "improves your critical strikes" and avoid numbers altogether - if that is what you're going for.   

The smart ass answer is it depends on how many times you crit and then for how much.  But in all seriousness, if add ons are confirmed, I haven't researched it myself, then just wait and I'm sure someone that is a die hard raider/PVPer will create an add on that will provide said numbers.  And I doubt it'll take very long before something hits the street.

The kind of add-ons you're talking would require for there to be a combat log.   Which there isn't.  

 

As the game stands now, the people who make detailed excel spreadsheets and manually calculate every ability's effect when combined with every weapon  will have a vast avdantage over those that just want to play the game.    I really don't think it's a good setup.   Either remove ALL numbers from the game and make everyone even, or give us the combat numbers IN-GAME, so all players can access them.

 

Basically, i don't want to have to make a massive spreadsheet in order to set up my character.  I can make spreadsheets and i like spreadsheets, but i don't think it should be necessary.  And i think it detracts more from immersion than the option to just see what you've actually hit a mob for.  

Jyiiga

Originally posted by DMKano

 

Why should it - just because of the lore and the name?

I honestly think that TESO should be a good MMORPG first and foremost - even if it DOESN'T feel like an ES game, it shouldn't feel like an ES game as it's NOT. It's a MMORPG, not a single player game.

Trying to make TESO feel like an ES game is a recipe for disaster - just make a good MMORPG, as that's what those who stay for months will play, - single player ES game lovers will not last past the first month - don't make a game for them - so I say screw the feel of ES - it's not something they should be even attempting.

 

 

Other people would say the opposite. They would say, I like how much ES flavor it does have and we don't want you making it more like every other game on the market.