games that have been produced using traditional funding models mostly = trash.
game that have been made using crowdfunding and other creative access methods = good
Evidence?
You expect evidence here?
What he means is ... he does not like AAA games, and he like indie stuff. It is his preference .. has little to do with the larger gaming world.
Nari, still waiting on the evidence of: did you buy the $5,000 for data from that superdata website you've been linking for proof of financials from the publishers?
Otherwise, folks can just say, "You expect evidence here?"
games that have been produced using traditional funding models mostly = trash.
game that have been made using crowdfunding and other creative access methods = good
Evidence?
You expect evidence here?
What he means is ... he does not like AAA games, and he like indie stuff. It is his preference .. has little to do with the larger gaming world.
Nari, still waiting on the evidence of: did you buy the $5,000 for data from that superdata website you've been linking for proof of financials from the publishers?
Otherwise, folks can just say, "You expect evidence here?"
^_^
nah .. superdata itself is evidence ... if not, how did it survive? You can try to ignore it and put your head into the sand .. but people will keep posting it.
Kick Starter needs to evolve and provide accountability at some point. Ideally through it's own evolution and not have it forced on it by a third party.
A company like Warner Bros can either make it or break it. WB and a KS program that turns out to be a Madoff special or a WB, KS that has a mission and will refund if the mission criteria isn't met.
Originally posted by Cephus404 Let's be honest, a lot of companies are using Kickstarter to eliminate investor risk and pre-sell their products. Kickstarter was originally about crowdfunding games that could not be made any other way. Now it's about pre-ordering products and eliminating risk for companies who ought to be taking chances with their own money.
When Warner Brothers is now using it, yep, that's the definition of eliminating risk by companies with zero problems getting capital to fund projects themselves.
If they can do it with little risk, and maintain a monopoly of talent also, the indies have lost it (and probably why they're entering that marketplace...to thwart competition).
Not a good sign.
Criminey you people are thick. Warner Bros. isn't using Kickstarter. The people who wanted another Veronica Mars movie used Kickstarter. That would be the actors who starred in the television series, and the fans. Warner Bros. turned the project down. Now that the actors and fans have raised the money, the project will actually get done.
Without Kickstarter, the Veronica Mars movies would have never happened. It will happen though, and it will release in March.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Oh look...more straw man arguments like these anti-Kickstarter posts always seem to have because all Kickstarters and crowdfunding is exactly the same right!?
Even if those two Kickstarters are bad it doesn't prove anything about Kickstarter in general. You may as well say "I went shoping and I got ripped off at a store! Shopping is bad and a scam!"
Oh look...more straw man arguments like these anti-Kickstarter posts always seem to have because all Kickstarters and crowdfunding is exactly the same right!?
Even if those two Kickstarters are bad it doesn't prove anything about Kickstarter in general. You may as well say "I went shoping and I got ripped off at a store! Shopping is bad and a scam!"
[mod edit]
Not a good analogy.
Kickstarter is a gamble, shopping isn't. Getting ripped off in a store is a crime.
Oh look...more straw man arguments like these anti-Kickstarter posts always seem to have because all Kickstarters and crowdfunding is exactly the same right!?
Even if those two Kickstarters are bad it doesn't prove anything about Kickstarter in general. You may as well say "I went shoping and I got ripped off at a store! Shopping is bad and a scam!"
[mod edit]
Not a good analogy.
Kickstarter is a gamble, shopping isn't. Getting ripped off in a store is a crime.
Let's use his analogy.
When is the last time you hand over money in a store, and you do not walk out with a product? Never ... for me. Because you pick up the product in the store before handing over money.
What that 2 KS proves is that it is possible to hand over money and get nothing in KS, while that never happens in a store.
Good example of why KS is not something i will ever spend a dime in ... now if you want to gamble your $$$, i am not going to stop you.
Oh look...more straw man arguments like these anti-Kickstarter posts always seem to have because all Kickstarters and crowdfunding is exactly the same right!?
Even if those two Kickstarters are bad it doesn't prove anything about Kickstarter in general. You may as well say "I went shoping and I got ripped off at a store! Shopping is bad and a scam!"
[mod edit]
Not a good analogy.
Kickstarter is a gamble, shopping isn't. Getting ripped off in a store is a crime.
Let's use his analogy.
When is the last time you hand over money in a store, and you do not walk out with a product? Never ... for me. Because you pick up the product in the store before handing over money.
What that 2 KS proves is that it is possible to hand over money and get nothing in KS, while that never happens in a store.
Good example of why KS is not something i will ever spend a dime in ... now if you want to gamble your $$$, i am not going to stop you.
games that have been produced using traditional funding models mostly = trash.
game that have been made using crowdfunding and other creative access methods = good
Evidence?
You expect evidence here?
What he means is ... he does not like AAA games, and he like indie stuff. It is his preference .. has little to do with the larger gaming world.
Nari, still waiting on the evidence of: did you buy the $5,000 for data from that superdata website you've been linking for proof of financials from the publishers?
Otherwise, folks can just say, "You expect evidence here?"
^_^
nah .. superdata itself is evidence ... if not, how did it survive? You can try to ignore it and put your head into the sand .. but people will keep posting it.
Behind a $5,000 and $4,000 pay wall.
People quoting "free" data with the meaty bits behind a paywall. Don't you see the flaw in all of that, yet?
I'm not sure I understand your statement. Do you have any statistics for KickStarters or just some bad examples? How many games funded by big production companies go under before retail? I see kickstarter as a way of getting a higher number of games released. There are only so many publishers working on so many projects, now there are publishers AND kickstarter campaigns. The risks are no different, its just another way to get a game to market...
Do you really think people doing dumb things is confined to kick starter? No one did anything dumb before kick starter appeared!
Thank goodness, we all have saviors on these forums that can tell us what to do with our money.
News flash, we all probably do something everyday that someone would consider dumb, like paying for an expensive pizza, delivery and a tip, when you could make healthier food for a fraction of the cost....Paying 'X' amount for cable and smart phones a month...
Get over it, if someone doesn't do enough research into something, and they spend money poorly, it isn't your money. Now if people are scamming people and taking their life savings, making them homeless, etc.... Sure mmorpg action news it.
You found some bad kick starters, big deal, their are bad charities that are basically scams, so is giving to charity dumb founded as a whole idea?
You found some bad kick starters, big deal, their are bad charities that are basically scams, so is giving to charity dumb founded as a whole idea?
Huh? Did I just see that as a reasoning to keep Kick Start "as is"?
It's called some more self-policing before the government comes down on this unregulated feature themselves.
It's always better for industry to self-police, because outsiders who do it will do so without regard to the industry.
When companies that have little trouble gaining investment dollars using it, it can cause a chilling effect with indies as they try to get financial assistance they can't achieve. It's like revisiting Standard Oil all over again 100 years later.
You found some bad kick starters, big deal, their are bad charities that are basically scams, so is giving to charity dumb founded as a whole idea?
Huh? Did I just see that as a reasoning to keep Kick Start "as is"?
It's called some more self-policing before the government comes down on this unregulated feature themselves.
It's always better for industry to self-police, because outsiders who do it will do so without regard to the industry.
When companies that have little trouble gaining investment dollars using it, it can cause a chilling effect with indies as they try to get financial assistance they can't achieve. It's like revisiting Standard Oil all over again 100 years later.
I don't think I said that. I said that he maybe found some that he thought were bad, no matter how much you regulate something, you will still have something questionable slip through or use a loophole. My argument was you cannot judge 100% of kick starter because of 1-2 things the OP wants to point out....Thus my statement that you can find charities that are scams or so little goes to their cause that it is almost worthless to give to them....Those bad charities do not mean all charities are bad. You can find reports to find out what percentage goes to the charity and how much goes to overhead...Same with a kick starter, you will not find as much information, but you can make an informed decision with regards to pledging money.
What that 2 KS proves is that it is possible to hand over money and get nothing in KS, while that never happens in a store.
Good example of why KS is not something i will ever spend a dime in ... now if you want to gamble your $$$, i am not going to stop you.
You can easily get something at a store that's not at all what you thought it was. Some stores may take it back most won't. You think scams and crap products didn't exist before crowdfunding? Buyer beware.
Oh and just playing devil's advocate for the Mars movie one (even though I doubt I'd ever back something like that). Sure Warner Bros. has lots of money but they're not going to make a movie unless they think there's an audience for it. I think Kickstarter is used to judge whether there is actually a market for something as much as it is to raise money. I seem to remember Garriott admitting he had plenty of money to make SotA without KS but basically wanted to see if it was worth his while to do it.
That's not really as much as a "feel good story" as the guy in his garage wanting to make his dream game but if you really want a certain thing to be made and it's a niche product voting with your wallet like that makes some sense.
I"m waiting for General Motors to have a Kickstarter car.. I'm not too impressed with Kickstarter, think I would get better return on my $$$$ donating to a political campaign..
EDIT: my position only applies to large multi million dollar MMO projects.. KIckstarter is just fine with small start ups and projects that only take a couple thousand here or there..
What that 2 KS proves is that it is possible to hand over money and get nothing in KS, while that never happens in a store.
Good example of why KS is not something i will ever spend a dime in ... now if you want to gamble your $$$, i am not going to stop you.
You can easily get something at a store that's not at all what you thought it was. Some stores may take it back most won't. You think scams and crap products didn't exist before crowdfunding? Buyer beware.
So? At least the product exists, and you have no one to blame if you dont open, and inspect it.
KS does not even guarantee the existence of a product .. HUGE difference.
What that 2 KS proves is that it is possible to hand over money and get nothing in KS, while that never happens in a store.
Good example of why KS is not something i will ever spend a dime in ... now if you want to gamble your $$$, i am not going to stop you.
You can easily get something at a store that's not at all what you thought it was. Some stores may take it back most won't. You think scams and crap products didn't exist before crowdfunding? Buyer beware.
So? At least the product exists, and you have no one to blame if you dont open, and inspect it.
KS does not even guarantee the existence of a product .. HUGE difference.
This is why I said retail as a comparison is a bad analogy. There is nothing about KS that would be anything like a retail purchase. Even with KS, you aren't buying something. Assuming the product completes, you still have to buy it. KS has little to no recourse if the project goes wrong. And KS (For the purposes of this forum) has little to no ROI.
For once, I am in complete agreement with Nari. No way I'll fund a game like that.
Comments
You expect evidence here?
What he means is ... he does not like AAA games, and he like indie stuff. It is his preference .. has little to do with the larger gaming world.
Nari, still waiting on the evidence of: did you buy the $5,000 for data from that superdata website you've been linking for proof of financials from the publishers?
Otherwise, folks can just say, "You expect evidence here?"
^_^
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
nah .. superdata itself is evidence ... if not, how did it survive? You can try to ignore it and put your head into the sand .. but people will keep posting it.
Kickstarter is a fad. Once a few projects fail to fund and players lose money, it will suddenly "get real" and the well of free money will dry up.
Well, at least if I am wrong, we could see a whole new era of free creativity.
Nahh, prolly not.
There is already a new era of free creativity in indie gaming. We don't need KS for that.
I'm actually all for that. I just don't think KS is the way to go.
Kick Starter needs to evolve and provide accountability at some point. Ideally through it's own evolution and not have it forced on it by a third party.
A company like Warner Bros can either make it or break it. WB and a KS program that turns out to be a Madoff special or a WB, KS that has a mission and will refund if the mission criteria isn't met.
Criminey you people are thick. Warner Bros. isn't using Kickstarter. The people who wanted another Veronica Mars movie used Kickstarter. That would be the actors who starred in the television series, and the fans. Warner Bros. turned the project down. Now that the actors and fans have raised the money, the project will actually get done.
Without Kickstarter, the Veronica Mars movies would have never happened. It will happen though, and it will release in March.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Oh look...more straw man arguments like these anti-Kickstarter posts always seem to have because all Kickstarters and crowdfunding is exactly the same right!?
Even if those two Kickstarters are bad it doesn't prove anything about Kickstarter in general. You may as well say "I went shoping and I got ripped off at a store! Shopping is bad and a scam!"
[mod edit]
Not a good analogy.
Kickstarter is a gamble, shopping isn't. Getting ripped off in a store is a crime.
Let's use his analogy.
When is the last time you hand over money in a store, and you do not walk out with a product? Never ... for me. Because you pick up the product in the store before handing over money.
What that 2 KS proves is that it is possible to hand over money and get nothing in KS, while that never happens in a store.
Good example of why KS is not something i will ever spend a dime in ... now if you want to gamble your $$$, i am not going to stop you.
Same for me.
Behind a $5,000 and $4,000 pay wall.
People quoting "free" data with the meaty bits behind a paywall. Don't you see the flaw in all of that, yet?
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
Main Game: Eldevin (Plat0nic)
2nd Game: Path of Exile (Platonic Hate)
Do you really think people doing dumb things is confined to kick starter? No one did anything dumb before kick starter appeared!
Thank goodness, we all have saviors on these forums that can tell us what to do with our money.
News flash, we all probably do something everyday that someone would consider dumb, like paying for an expensive pizza, delivery and a tip, when you could make healthier food for a fraction of the cost....Paying 'X' amount for cable and smart phones a month...
Get over it, if someone doesn't do enough research into something, and they spend money poorly, it isn't your money. Now if people are scamming people and taking their life savings, making them homeless, etc.... Sure mmorpg action news it.
You found some bad kick starters, big deal, their are bad charities that are basically scams, so is giving to charity dumb founded as a whole idea?
Huh? Did I just see that as a reasoning to keep Kick Start "as is"?
It's called some more self-policing before the government comes down on this unregulated feature themselves.
It's always better for industry to self-police, because outsiders who do it will do so without regard to the industry.
When companies that have little trouble gaining investment dollars using it, it can cause a chilling effect with indies as they try to get financial assistance they can't achieve. It's like revisiting Standard Oil all over again 100 years later.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
I don't think I said that. I said that he maybe found some that he thought were bad, no matter how much you regulate something, you will still have something questionable slip through or use a loophole. My argument was you cannot judge 100% of kick starter because of 1-2 things the OP wants to point out....Thus my statement that you can find charities that are scams or so little goes to their cause that it is almost worthless to give to them....Those bad charities do not mean all charities are bad. You can find reports to find out what percentage goes to the charity and how much goes to overhead...Same with a kick starter, you will not find as much information, but you can make an informed decision with regards to pledging money.
You can easily get something at a store that's not at all what you thought it was. Some stores may take it back most won't. You think scams and crap products didn't exist before crowdfunding? Buyer beware.
Oh and just playing devil's advocate for the Mars movie one (even though I doubt I'd ever back something like that). Sure Warner Bros. has lots of money but they're not going to make a movie unless they think there's an audience for it. I think Kickstarter is used to judge whether there is actually a market for something as much as it is to raise money. I seem to remember Garriott admitting he had plenty of money to make SotA without KS but basically wanted to see if it was worth his while to do it.
That's not really as much as a "feel good story" as the guy in his garage wanting to make his dream game but if you really want a certain thing to be made and it's a niche product voting with your wallet like that makes some sense.
I"m waiting for General Motors to have a Kickstarter car.. I'm not too impressed with Kickstarter, think I would get better return on my $$$$ donating to a political campaign..
EDIT: my position only applies to large multi million dollar MMO projects.. KIckstarter is just fine with small start ups and projects that only take a couple thousand here or there..
-------------------------
"Searchers after horror haunt strange, far places..." ~ H.P.Lovecraft, "From Beyond"
Member Since March 2004
No. Limited data is still data. Better than opinions from random people on the internet.
So? At least the product exists, and you have no one to blame if you dont open, and inspect it.
KS does not even guarantee the existence of a product .. HUGE difference.
This is why I said retail as a comparison is a bad analogy. There is nothing about KS that would be anything like a retail purchase. Even with KS, you aren't buying something. Assuming the product completes, you still have to buy it. KS has little to no recourse if the project goes wrong. And KS (For the purposes of this forum) has little to no ROI.
For once, I am in complete agreement with Nari. No way I'll fund a game like that.