The issue is the lack of alternative to those simplified dungeons, not that they have changed. I think Dungeons&Dragons Online still feature decent dungeons compared to the rest of mainstream games tho.
There is always indie games. It is not a problem when the majority is being catered to .. and that is almost always the case in a free market.
If simplified dungeons is the symptom, what's the cause?
The average gamer is as follows;
50/50 Male Female
36 to 37 YEARS OLD
Is it any surprised that the trend is towards 'less consecutive time in a hole in the ground'?
10 years ago, yeah, the average gamer had heaps of free time.
Now more than 50% is approaching 40s and would have things like 'kids / partner / jobs'.
With the way the national labor participation rate is these days, the average gamer is not working, even if he's not in college. So most likely they have as much or more time on their hands then 10 years ago.
But this guy isn't making decent money either - so why would you want to sell to him. You want to go after the fat cats - and MMOs are being designed to play more like single players to go after this demographic. Smart.
Timing killing, time waisting grinds, where you farm static mobs for days; sitting there hitting your same buttons for hours on end - not smart. Just like the people advocating for the return of it.
The issue is the lack of alternative to those simplified dungeons, not that they have changed. I think Dungeons&Dragons Online still feature decent dungeons compared to the rest of mainstream games tho.
There is always indie games. It is not a problem when the majority is being catered to .. and that is almost always the case in a free market.
Nari is correct the mainstream is full of morons. Just gotta deal with it. Good games are still out their just gotta shift through a lot more crap.
You are comparing apples to oranges. PnP dungeons cater to a niche market, a small group of friends who gather together couple of times a week and can pick up exactly where they left off, taking weeks to clear a dungeon. MMOs are a completely different medium, oriented on progression and action, less on exploration and socialization. Many mmo gamers are not interested in getting lost and exploring a dungeon or avoiding traps, they want action and to test their skills against a boss, so the dungeons simply evolved to cater to those needs.
The issue is the lack of alternative to those simplified dungeons, not that they have changed. I think Dungeons&Dragons Online still feature decent dungeons compared to the rest of mainstream games tho.
HUH? EQ dungeons were not designed for "save and start" game play.. They were open world progression zones just like any other zone.. Many of those dungeons and/or castles had camping location for multiple groups to play in at the same time.. I will agree with you that more of the NEW gamers that came into the genre don't want exploring and adventure.. Ya'll just want an arcade shooting gallery.. <shrug>
And I'm OK with that.. I don't believe one group of people should dictate the actions of another.. That is why I always suggested that games like WoW set up special servers to accommodate me, and ya'll can stay and play on the normal servers It's just that easy.. Right?
The issue is the lack of alternative to those simplified dungeons, not that they have changed. I think Dungeons&Dragons Online still feature decent dungeons compared to the rest of mainstream games tho.
There is always indie games. It is not a problem when the majority is being catered to .. and that is almost always the case in a free market.
I'm not sure I can come up with any indie games featuring decent dungeons right off the bat.. Which ones were you thinking of?
I am not saying EQ combat was not challenging. I am saying it had a very low skill cap. There is a difference. These are not empty words.
In a modern more 'twitch' based game the player skill can make dramatic difference in the outcome. The idea here is that a high skill cap class has a large variance in player performance.
In EQ for most of the basic jobs there wasn't a high skill cap. This isn't to say the fights were 'easy.'
Let me explain:
The fights were tuned such that you didn't have a lot of 'leeway' If you were soloing something for example you would hit your buttons - the monster would do his stuff - rinse and repeat for a very long time (easily 5 - 10x as long as WoW) and you would eventually win - but usually not much against even a light blue conned mob. Fights would get easier if you had some great gear but assuming you didn't have the scepter of destruction and a fungi tunic this is how it went.
In group fights it was more of the same. Yes if someone did something stupid you would fail. But most of the time provided your group had enough people it was nothing but tank and spank. You got in a groove. You could grind for hours and hours and hours - and that's what most people in groups did. There was very little skill involved. Guys had to pay attention but it was easy. But the important thing here is that it didn't matter if you had 'good' players or not. The skill cap for most roles was so low that it just didn't matter. They simply had to click on their appropriate buttons and wait till they refreshed - and then repeat cycle.
More modern games have a much higher skill cap. That's to say the performance variance from a good player to a mediocre or bad one is HUGE. In a modern game like GW2 you can avoid ALOT of damage via circe strafing, dodge, abilities and at the same time put out way more damage with careful positioning and timing of abilities.
It's the same kind of thing in WoW where good tanks and healers can pull off amazing feats not strictly because of gear but because of perfect use of abilitiy. Its more EQ like now with WoW nerfing the higher skill cap classes (feral druid rotation for example) or DK tanking..but its still stronger then EQ.
EQ was mostly about the numbers - it was basically a spreadsheet battle. Its almost like a simulation of combat instead of actual combat. You weren't sure if you were gonna win or lose sometimes till the fight was almost over and it turned out your set of numbers didn't match up to the mobs abilities.
Modern games though do things totally different. Rank and file encounters are now tuned to be dog easy. BUT.. highly skilled players can vastly outperform poor ones and do 'heroic' things that was pretty rare outside of soloing Bards, Druids and Necros. Those were the high skill cap classes in EQ - pulling monks also needed some video game skills.
The rest of it..meh. It was dog boring and slow. I played an f'in lot of EQ. I just loved it back in the day. But there is a reason that all the people in this forum who long for the old dungeons don't go back. They just weren't that good. None of those dungeons was as good as Naxx. Naxx alone is greater then all the raids and dungeons EQ had. It had fun boss mechanics- and wasn't entirely 'tank and spank'.
Its not even a fair comparison really. WoW kicked the f'in crap out of EQ for a reason. It was just far more interesting to play. I won't even mention a place like Ulduar so epic they wrote a song about it. :P No seriously SOE was totally outgunned by WoW. Its surprising but true. Granted you had to really play both games to know this - and by play I mean play way too much.
But I did so I know.
There are also some lower skill cap classes in WoW too. For a while resto druid was pretty awful - just rejuv everone..haha. Arcane Mage is kinda awful too. GW2 does better in this regard - rewarding more skilled players. And I look for even more modern MMOs to do better bringing some platform style skills to MMOs. Wildstar should be a more skill based game.
I had a lot of fun in World of Warcraft, but I don't remember much specific from the game. I relate this to it being a lot easier play. It was for me and that's why I played it. I'm pretty certain people didn't play EQ dungeons because they were just to hard to go through at the appropriate level for the average person.
There is no twitch combat in mmos. Even the elder scrolls online is turn based. It's just masked with a system that appears to be twitch based. A large part of what makes these games easier is there are no adds, when there are adds it doesn't matter because it's they die so fast usually, players abilities are more powerful.
Eh. I see where you are going with this. You are making some distinction with regards to how they run their engine - am I right? I don't know if in your mind that's not 'twitch' or whatever..
But according to the wiki definition of twitch gaming - modern MMOs absolutely have twitch elements. Any sudden reaction to some kind of threat would be 'twitch' gaming. Thus MMOs in general are getting twitchier. WoW was a lot more reactive then EQ - EQ was more reactive then Gemstone IV etc etc. GW2 allows you to actually avoid ranged attacks by moving out of the way. There have been some steps backward (SWTOR, FFXIV) but this is the general path. Tera is shooteresque.
If that is your definition of twitch based combat then EQ had it as well. You had to bash, kick, or cast certain spells at the right time during combat. You couldn't just stand there hitting the same button over and over again. Basically you were reacting to what the mobs were doing. If the mob was casting a spell shield bash. If a mob was low on health snare/root so it wouldn't run and bring adds. If there was an add CC or taunt/off tank/grab agro. The healer would need to heal at the right time not to pull agro. The puller would need to FD or die if they did a bad pull. Everything was reacting to something that was happening.
The issue is the lack of alternative to those simplified dungeons, not that they have changed. I think Dungeons&Dragons Online still feature decent dungeons compared to the rest of mainstream games tho.
There is always indie games. It is not a problem when the majority is being catered to .. and that is almost always the case in a free market.
I'm not sure I can come up with any indie games featuring decent dungeons right off the bat.. Which ones were you thinking of?
And I'm OK with that.. I don't believe one group of people should dictate the actions of another.. That is why I always suggested that games like WoW set up special servers to accommodate me, and ya'll can stay and play on the normal servers It's just that easy.. Right?
Are you willing to pay for a whole server? That are not cheap.
And I'm OK with that.. I don't believe one group of people should dictate the actions of another.. That is why I always suggested that games like WoW set up special servers to accommodate me, and ya'll can stay and play on the normal servers It's just that easy.. Right?
Are you willing to pay for a whole server? That are not cheap.
Servers are that cheap.. and I'm sure in most games that have any substantial population there are thousands just like me.. Enough to keep ONE server open
And I'm OK with that.. I don't believe one group of people should dictate the actions of another.. That is why I always suggested that games like WoW set up special servers to accommodate me, and ya'll can stay and play on the normal servers It's just that easy.. Right?
Are you willing to pay for a whole server? That are not cheap.
Servers are that cheap.. and I'm sure in most games that have any substantial population there are thousands just like me.. Enough to keep ONE server open
Given that blizz is pretty good at figure out what players want to buy (just look at how many millions of sparky pony they sold), if they don't have a special server for you, they probably don't think it is going to make them money.
You are comparing apples to oranges. PnP dungeons cater to a niche market, a small group of friends who gather together couple of times a week and can pick up exactly where they left off, taking weeks to clear a dungeon. MMOs are a completely different medium, oriented on progression and action, less on exploration and socialization. Many mmo gamers are not interested in getting lost and exploring a dungeon or avoiding traps, they want action and to test their skills against a boss, so the dungeons simply evolved to cater to those needs.
The issue is the lack of alternative to those simplified dungeons, not that they have changed. I think Dungeons&Dragons Online still feature decent dungeons compared to the rest of mainstream games tho.
HUH? EQ dungeons were not designed for "save and start" game play.. They were open world progression zones just like any other zone.. Many of those dungeons and/or castles had camping location for multiple groups to play in at the same time.. I will agree with you that more of the NEW gamers that came into the genre don't want exploring and adventure.. Ya'll just want an arcade shooting gallery..
And I'm OK with that.. I don't believe one group of people should dictate the actions of another.. That is why I always suggested that games like WoW set up special servers to accommodate me, and ya'll can stay and play on the normal servers It's just that easy.. Right?
[mod edit]
[mod edit]
Have you ever thought that maybe that he just likes to play games for the sake of playing games. A lot of people work hard in their real lives to achieve goals provide for their families, earn promotions and many other personal objectives that have nothing to do with having success in a virtual world. I personally prefer to sit down play a game for the sake of entertainment I don't feel the need to work hard be challenged, frustrated put in hours upon hours into my ENTERTAINMENT to achieve something! I play MMO's to be entertained in game environment I enjoy and play with other players. I spend enough hours working hard for other reasons. If that's what you find fun and entertaining that's fine just don't assume and demand that everyone see it your way because in most cases people don't have 40-60 hours to sit in front of their computer to play a video game!
Have you ever thought that maybe that he just likes to play games for the sake of playing games. A lot of people work hard in their real lives to achieve goals provide for their families, earn promotions and many other personal objectives that have nothing to do with having success in a virtual world. I personally prefer to sit down play a game for the sake of entertainment I don't feel the need to work hard be challenged, frustrated put in hours upon hours into my ENTERTAINMENT to achieve something! I play MMO's to be entertained in game environment I enjoy and play with other players. I spend enough hours working hard for other reasons. If that's what you find fun and entertaining that's fine just don't assume and demand that everyone see it your way because in most cases people don't have 40-60 hours to sit in front of their computer to play a video game!
This ^^^
Games are just games. Achievement in pve games are just illusion provided by devs to entertain.
And I'm OK with that.. I don't believe one group of people should dictate the actions of another.. That is why I always suggested that games like WoW set up special servers to accommodate me, and ya'll can stay and play on the normal servers It's just that easy.. Right?
Are you willing to pay for a whole server? That are not cheap.
Servers are that cheap.. and I'm sure in most games that have any substantial population there are thousands just like me.. Enough to keep ONE server open
Given that blizz is pretty good at figure out what players want to buy (just look at how many millions of sparky pony they sold), if they don't have a special server for you, they probably don't think it is going to make them money.
really? and WoW still doesn't have housing? or have they finally caved.. LOL To think that Blizzard are the GODS of gaming is humorous..
Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by AxxarInterestingly, the next WoW expansion will go back to a more complex dungeon design like we saw in Vanilla with Blackrock Spire etc.
And they try harder heroics too in CATA .. what happened? Lots of QQIng and they have to nerf.
that really sucked and very much made me lose a lot of faith in Blizzard, but changing the dungeon layout is a lot harder than lowering some numbers.
I am not saying EQ combat was not challenging. I am saying it had a very low skill cap. There is a difference. These are not empty words.
In a modern more 'twitch' based game the player skill can make dramatic difference in the outcome. The idea here is that a high skill cap class has a large variance in player performance.
In EQ for most of the basic jobs there wasn't a high skill cap. This isn't to say the fights were 'easy.'
Let me explain:
The fights were tuned such that you didn't have a lot of 'leeway' If you were soloing something for example you would hit your buttons - the monster would do his stuff - rinse and repeat for a very long time (easily 5 - 10x as long as WoW) and you would eventually win - but usually not much against even a light blue conned mob. Fights would get easier if you had some great gear but assuming you didn't have the scepter of destruction and a fungi tunic this is how it went.
In group fights it was more of the same. Yes if someone did something stupid you would fail. But most of the time provided your group had enough people it was nothing but tank and spank. You got in a groove. You could grind for hours and hours and hours - and that's what most people in groups did. There was very little skill involved. Guys had to pay attention but it was easy. But the important thing here is that it didn't matter if you had 'good' players or not. The skill cap for most roles was so low that it just didn't matter. They simply had to click on their appropriate buttons and wait till they refreshed - and then repeat cycle.
More modern games have a much higher skill cap. That's to say the performance variance from a good player to a mediocre or bad one is HUGE. In a modern game like GW2 you can avoid ALOT of damage via circe strafing, dodge, abilities and at the same time put out way more damage with careful positioning and timing of abilities.
It's the same kind of thing in WoW where good tanks and healers can pull off amazing feats not strictly because of gear but because of perfect use of abilitiy. Its more EQ like now with WoW nerfing the higher skill cap classes (feral druid rotation for example) or DK tanking..but its still stronger then EQ.
EQ was mostly about the numbers - it was basically a spreadsheet battle. Its almost like a simulation of combat instead of actual combat. You weren't sure if you were gonna win or lose sometimes till the fight was almost over and it turned out your set of numbers didn't match up to the mobs abilities.
Modern games though do things totally different. Rank and file encounters are now tuned to be dog easy. BUT.. highly skilled players can vastly outperform poor ones and do 'heroic' things that was pretty rare outside of soloing Bards, Druids and Necros. Those were the high skill cap classes in EQ - pulling monks also needed some video game skills.
The rest of it..meh. It was dog boring and slow. I played an f'in lot of EQ. I just loved it back in the day. But there is a reason that all the people in this forum who long for the old dungeons don't go back. They just weren't that good. None of those dungeons was as good as Naxx. Naxx alone is greater then all the raids and dungeons EQ had. It had fun boss mechanics- and wasn't entirely 'tank and spank'.
Its not even a fair comparison really. WoW kicked the f'in crap out of EQ for a reason. It was just far more interesting to play. I won't even mention a place like Ulduar so epic they wrote a song about it. :P No seriously SOE was totally outgunned by WoW. Its surprising but true. Granted you had to really play both games to know this - and by play I mean play way too much.
But I did so I know.
There are also some lower skill cap classes in WoW too. For a while resto druid was pretty awful - just rejuv everone..haha. Arcane Mage is kinda awful too. GW2 does better in this regard - rewarding more skilled players. And I look for even more modern MMOs to do better bringing some platform style skills to MMOs. Wildstar should be a more skill based game.
I had a lot of fun in World of Warcraft, but I don't remember much specific from the game. I relate this to it being a lot easier play. It was for me and that's why I played it. I'm pretty certain people didn't play EQ dungeons because they were just to hard to go through at the appropriate level for the average person.
There is no twitch combat in mmos. Even the elder scrolls online is turn based. It's just masked with a system that appears to be twitch based. A large part of what makes these games easier is there are no adds, when there are adds it doesn't matter because it's they die so fast usually, players abilities are more powerful.
Eh. I see where you are going with this. You are making some distinction with regards to how they run their engine - am I right? I don't know if in your mind that's not 'twitch' or whatever..
But according to the wiki definition of twitch gaming - modern MMOs absolutely have twitch elements. Any sudden reaction to some kind of threat would be 'twitch' gaming. Thus MMOs in general are getting twitchier. WoW was a lot more reactive then EQ - EQ was more reactive then Gemstone IV etc etc. GW2 allows you to actually avoid ranged attacks by moving out of the way. There have been some steps backward (SWTOR, FFXIV) but this is the general path. Tera is shooteresque.
If that is your definition of twitch based combat then EQ had it as well. You had to bash, kick, or cast certain spells at the right time during combat. You couldn't just stand there hitting the same button over and over again. Basically you were reacting to what the mobs were doing. If the mob was casting a spell shield bash. If a mob was low on health snare/root so it wouldn't run and bring adds. If there was an add CC or taunt/off tank/grab agro. The healer would need to heal at the right time not to pull agro. The puller would need to FD or die if they did a bad pull. Everything was reacting to something that was happening.
Sure. There was a limited twitch aspect to EQ. A turn based game would be something like final fantasy. But what EQ doesn't have is the same treatment of space for players that a modern game does. Where you position your character relative to the action matters a lot more in modern MMOs.
This is something a lot of EQ vets have a hard time with it a game like GW2. They think its 'ez' because you can play it like EQ with a few buttons. However optimal play is all about perfect positioning to maximize damage - whether its a whirling sword attack or an targettted AOE and perfect defense is all about moving out of the mobs cone of attack or sidestepping or dodging its various AOE patterns and such.
Modern mmos are basically more sophisticated games - even if they are less sophisticated RPGs. There is less of an emphasis on spreadsheet work on more emphasis on ratchet and clank/shooter twitch style gameplay. WoW was twitchier then EQ - GW2 is more twitch based then WoW. Look for Wildstar to be the most twitch based MMO ever - supposedly it feels like playing Ratchet and Clank.
This is a good direction to go in because a game like Ratchet and Clank is really fun even without so much of the 'leveling' stuff thrown in. A game like EQ is almost a simulation in comparison to the new MMOs which are going to have features like mid air double jumps..
THe feeling of 'mastery' is something gamers really like - and that feeling of getting good at something will help games like Wildstar make it despite the hate, IMHO.
Have you ever thought that maybe that he just likes to play games for the sake of playing games. A lot of people work hard in their real lives to achieve goals provide for their families, earn promotions and many other personal objectives that have nothing to do with having success in a virtual world. I personally prefer to sit down play a game for the sake of entertainment I don't feel the need to work hard be challenged, frustrated put in hours upon hours into my ENTERTAINMENT to achieve something! I play MMO's to be entertained in game environment I enjoy and play with other players. I spend enough hours working hard for other reasons. If that's what you find fun and entertaining that's fine just don't assume and demand that everyone see it your way because in most cases people don't have 40-60 hours to sit in front of their computer to play a video game!
It's almost funny how so many people make use of straw man arguments like this to try to "prove" their point. Someone says they want some challenge and a feeling of achievement in a game and they get "OMG! You must want to play 12 hours a day and do nothing but grind!".
Can't you just say you like easy not very brain-intensive games without making a ridiculous and false caricature of what the other person is saying?
If you had actually read what was originally written by himself and me before the mod edited it you would understand the tone of the post I was replying in the same manner used originally.
I never said 12 hours a day and do nothing but grind I just implied that the way some players want MMO's it's a large time commitment some that most don't have. I'm all for challenge and interesting content I am not in favor of not being able to stay current in a game without a large amout of hours invested on a weekly basis.
For example I played SWG at launch and if you wanted to go Krayt Dragon hunting and were not on Tatooine it would often go something like this
Wait 10 Minutes for shuttle to Tatoine, Run 45 minutes through the dessert sand to where people gather to hunt dragons. Wait 45 minutes and hope enough player decide it would be fun to hunt dragons and show up. Kill Dragon 5 minutes, Run 45 minutes back to Mos Eisley.
While that might be fun for some it's not necessarily fun for everyone. I prefer games with an interesting challenge that is presented in a way that I can readily access it without having to sink so much time into just getting there in the first place.
Originally posted by AxxarInterestingly, the next WoW expansion will go back to a more complex dungeon design like we saw in Vanilla with Blackrock Spire etc.
And they try harder heroics too in CATA .. what happened? Lots of QQIng and they have to nerf.
that really sucked and very much made me lose a lot of faith in Blizzard, but changing the dungeon layout is a lot harder than lowering some numbers.
changing dungeon layout is not that hard .. they did simplify many of the earlier dungeons too.
That is giving what their customers want .. it is a good thing for them, and their customers, even if that is not you.
I think it's actually one of the reasons they lose as many subs as they do, so I must disagree. Apparently Blizzard disagrees as well since they are going back to it.
Originally posted by AxxarInterestingly, the next WoW expansion will go back to a more complex dungeon design like we saw in Vanilla with Blackrock Spire etc.
And they try harder heroics too in CATA .. what happened? Lots of QQIng and they have to nerf.
that really sucked and very much made me lose a lot of faith in Blizzard, but changing the dungeon layout is a lot harder than lowering some numbers.
It wasn't that the Cata dungeons were "hard" (just like raiding isn't "hard") it's the mechanics that drove people to the forums to complain (just like the 5.1 daily grind did in MoP).
2hr dungeons because of ONE mechanic -- CC -- does not make a fun experience. Players saw it for what it was (a gating mechanic) and said, "no" to it. SOME CC, fine. But not on every mob in very dull dungeons. Then only offering 2 dungeons for 6 months (ZA and ZG, which were fun excursions for mount collectors trying to farm for that spectral tiger [then removed to make the new bear...$&#(@)$], which Blizzard "redesigned" to the point few were pleased)!
(and I'm not talking about that bear mount, either. But those 2 dungeons wiped any interest in doing it because that's all the "new" dungeons we had for 6 freaking months).
Players in Cata had every reason to complain. It was t-h-a-t bad.
I just wish players looking for this type of gameplay had an option (a modern option, I know EQ is still around, though changed greatly from the early years from what I understand).
There's Pantheon, but I don't trust Brad McQuaid to be able to run a company, which means I have zero hope for it. And even if Pantheon did become a thing, it's not like it would appear any time soon.
The Elder Scrolls Online from a glance seems to be going in the right direction for what I'm looking for with the public dungeons. The question is how large some of them will be. I don't expect all of them to be massive, as that would be absurd, but I'd certainly hope a few of them would be. Anyone remember running through Labyrinthian (from Arena, not the vastly shorter Skyrim version)? Something like that is what I'd be hoping to see. Hell, even something like the starting cave/dungeon from Daggerfall would be great.
I fully accept that I'm in the vast minority, but it sucks that those of us in this minority don't have something, however niche, to go to.
Originally posted by AxxarInterestingly, the next WoW expansion will go back to a more complex dungeon design like we saw in Vanilla with Blackrock Spire etc.
And they try harder heroics too in CATA .. what happened? Lots of QQIng and they have to nerf.
that really sucked and very much made me lose a lot of faith in Blizzard, but changing the dungeon layout is a lot harder than lowering some numbers.
It wasn't that the Cata dungeons were "hard" (just like raiding isn't "hard") it's the mechanics that drove people to the forums to complain (just like the 5.1 daily grind did in MoP).[/quote]I couldn't disagree more. People were very vocal on the forums about the dungeons specifically being "too hard" rather than that it sucked to use CC.
Doing careful pulls, using CC and being tactical is in fact much more fun and engaging than "gather and AoE."
They simply made a knee-jerk response rather than giving the player base time to adjust after years of Ez-Mode dungeons.
Personally I found the new dungeons very enjoyable until they got nerfed.
It didn't only happen in Cata from what I understand, since I never played Cata expansion.. but TBC was all about QQ'ing that CC was too demanding and it was too hard for many.. My warlock was at home in TBC, and I loved my Hunter as well.. Gamers today just like EZ-mode as some have already said where it's just nothing but an AOE burnfest.. I don't see it changing anytime soon
Comments
There is always indie games. It is not a problem when the majority is being catered to .. and that is almost always the case in a free market.
But this guy isn't making decent money either - so why would you want to sell to him. You want to go after the fat cats - and MMOs are being designed to play more like single players to go after this demographic. Smart.
Timing killing, time waisting grinds, where you farm static mobs for days; sitting there hitting your same buttons for hours on end - not smart. Just like the people advocating for the return of it.
Nari is correct the mainstream is full of morons. Just gotta deal with it. Good games are still out their just gotta shift through a lot more crap.
"put that in your pipe and twerk it"
HUH? EQ dungeons were not designed for "save and start" game play.. They were open world progression zones just like any other zone.. Many of those dungeons and/or castles had camping location for multiple groups to play in at the same time.. I will agree with you that more of the NEW gamers that came into the genre don't want exploring and adventure.. Ya'll just want an arcade shooting gallery.. <shrug>
And I'm OK with that.. I don't believe one group of people should dictate the actions of another.. That is why I always suggested that games like WoW set up special servers to accommodate me, and ya'll can stay and play on the normal servers
It's just that easy.. Right?
I'm not sure I can come up with any indie games featuring decent dungeons right off the bat.. Which ones were you thinking of?
If that is your definition of twitch based combat then EQ had it as well. You had to bash, kick, or cast certain spells at the right time during combat. You couldn't just stand there hitting the same button over and over again. Basically you were reacting to what the mobs were doing. If the mob was casting a spell shield bash. If a mob was low on health snare/root so it wouldn't run and bring adds. If there was an add CC or taunt/off tank/grab agro. The healer would need to heal at the right time not to pull agro. The puller would need to FD or die if they did a bad pull. Everything was reacting to something that was happening.
shadowruns return, baldur gates 1 & 2 enhanced.
Are you willing to pay for a whole server? That are not cheap.
Servers are that cheap.. and I'm sure in most games that have any substantial population there are thousands just like me.. Enough to keep ONE server open
Interestingly, the next WoW expansion will go back to a more complex dungeon design like we saw in Vanilla with Blackrock Spire etc.
Given that blizz is pretty good at figure out what players want to buy (just look at how many millions of sparky pony they sold), if they don't have a special server for you, they probably don't think it is going to make them money.
And they try harder heroics too in CATA .. what happened? Lots of QQIng and they have to nerf.
[mod edit]
Have you ever thought that maybe that he just likes to play games for the sake of playing games. A lot of people work hard in their real lives to achieve goals provide for their families, earn promotions and many other personal objectives that have nothing to do with having success in a virtual world. I personally prefer to sit down play a game for the sake of entertainment I don't feel the need to work hard be challenged, frustrated put in hours upon hours into my ENTERTAINMENT to achieve something! I play MMO's to be entertained in game environment I enjoy and play with other players. I spend enough hours working hard for other reasons. If that's what you find fun and entertaining that's fine just don't assume and demand that everyone see it your way because in most cases people don't have 40-60 hours to sit in front of their computer to play a video game!
This ^^^
Games are just games. Achievement in pve games are just illusion provided by devs to entertain.
really? and WoW still doesn't have housing? or have they finally caved.. LOL To think that Blizzard are the GODS of gaming is humorous..
that really sucked and very much made me lose a lot of faith in Blizzard, but changing the dungeon layout is a lot harder than lowering some numbers.
Sure. There was a limited twitch aspect to EQ. A turn based game would be something like final fantasy. But what EQ doesn't have is the same treatment of space for players that a modern game does. Where you position your character relative to the action matters a lot more in modern MMOs.
This is something a lot of EQ vets have a hard time with it a game like GW2. They think its 'ez' because you can play it like EQ with a few buttons. However optimal play is all about perfect positioning to maximize damage - whether its a whirling sword attack or an targettted AOE and perfect defense is all about moving out of the mobs cone of attack or sidestepping or dodging its various AOE patterns and such.
Modern mmos are basically more sophisticated games - even if they are less sophisticated RPGs. There is less of an emphasis on spreadsheet work on more emphasis on ratchet and clank/shooter twitch style gameplay. WoW was twitchier then EQ - GW2 is more twitch based then WoW. Look for Wildstar to be the most twitch based MMO ever - supposedly it feels like playing Ratchet and Clank.
This is a good direction to go in because a game like Ratchet and Clank is really fun even without so much of the 'leveling' stuff thrown in. A game like EQ is almost a simulation in comparison to the new MMOs which are going to have features like mid air double jumps..
THe feeling of 'mastery' is something gamers really like - and that feeling of getting good at something will help games like Wildstar make it despite the hate, IMHO.
It's almost funny how so many people make use of straw man arguments like this to try to "prove" their point. Someone says they want some challenge and a feeling of achievement in a game and they get "OMG! You must want to play 12 hours a day and do nothing but grind!".
Can't you just say you like easy not very brain-intensive games without making a ridiculous and false caricature of what the other person is saying?
If you had actually read what was originally written by himself and me before the mod edited it you would understand the tone of the post I was replying in the same manner used originally.
I never said 12 hours a day and do nothing but grind I just implied that the way some players want MMO's it's a large time commitment some that most don't have. I'm all for challenge and interesting content I am not in favor of not being able to stay current in a game without a large amout of hours invested on a weekly basis.
For example I played SWG at launch and if you wanted to go Krayt Dragon hunting and were not on Tatooine it would often go something like this
Wait 10 Minutes for shuttle to Tatoine, Run 45 minutes through the dessert sand to where people gather to hunt dragons. Wait 45 minutes and hope enough player decide it would be fun to hunt dragons and show up. Kill Dragon 5 minutes, Run 45 minutes back to Mos Eisley.
While that might be fun for some it's not necessarily fun for everyone. I prefer games with an interesting challenge that is presented in a way that I can readily access it without having to sink so much time into just getting there in the first place.
changing dungeon layout is not that hard .. they did simplify many of the earlier dungeons too.
That is giving what their customers want .. it is a good thing for them, and their customers, even if that is not you.
I think it's actually one of the reasons they lose as many subs as they do, so I must disagree. Apparently Blizzard disagrees as well since they are going back to it.
It wasn't that the Cata dungeons were "hard" (just like raiding isn't "hard") it's the mechanics that drove people to the forums to complain (just like the 5.1 daily grind did in MoP).
2hr dungeons because of ONE mechanic -- CC -- does not make a fun experience. Players saw it for what it was (a gating mechanic) and said, "no" to it. SOME CC, fine. But not on every mob in very dull dungeons. Then only offering 2 dungeons for 6 months (ZA and ZG, which were fun excursions for mount collectors trying to farm for that spectral tiger [then removed to make the new bear...$&#(@)$], which Blizzard "redesigned" to the point few were pleased)!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGyRqPssj3U
(and I'm not talking about that bear mount, either. But those 2 dungeons wiped any interest in doing it because that's all the "new" dungeons we had for 6 freaking months).
Players in Cata had every reason to complain. It was t-h-a-t bad.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
I just wish players looking for this type of gameplay had an option (a modern option, I know EQ is still around, though changed greatly from the early years from what I understand).
There's Pantheon, but I don't trust Brad McQuaid to be able to run a company, which means I have zero hope for it. And even if Pantheon did become a thing, it's not like it would appear any time soon.
The Elder Scrolls Online from a glance seems to be going in the right direction for what I'm looking for with the public dungeons. The question is how large some of them will be. I don't expect all of them to be massive, as that would be absurd, but I'd certainly hope a few of them would be. Anyone remember running through Labyrinthian (from Arena, not the vastly shorter Skyrim version)? Something like that is what I'd be hoping to see. Hell, even something like the starting cave/dungeon from Daggerfall would be great.
I fully accept that I'm in the vast minority, but it sucks that those of us in this minority don't have something, however niche, to go to.
[quote]Originally posted by Kevyne-Shandris
It wasn't that the Cata dungeons were "hard" (just like raiding isn't "hard") it's the mechanics that drove people to the forums to complain (just like the 5.1 daily grind did in MoP).[/quote]I couldn't disagree more. People were very vocal on the forums about the dungeons specifically being "too hard" rather than that it sucked to use CC.[b]
Doing careful pulls, using CC and being tactical is in fact much more fun and engaging than "gather and AoE."
They simply made a knee-jerk response rather than giving the player base time to adjust after years of Ez-Mode dungeons.
Personally I found the new dungeons very enjoyable until they got nerfed.
Also, http://wow.joystiq.com/2013/12/11/warlords-of-draenor-the-return-of-hard-heroic-5-mans/ is a pretty good read. I just hope they stick to their guns this time, but I have zero expectations here.