Isn't the TOPIC suppose to be about OPEN WORLD DUNGEONS..
And back to 1998 again with CONTESTED dungeons where all the campers and griefers made online life hell?
There's a reason why instances came to be, and why so many prefer them...so they don't have to deal with group A taking the whole dungeon for themselves.
I never was thrilled with it, but I considered it part of the challenge and what gave the game some meaning. Without real people to contest with for things the game becomes very simple and to a large extent boring. Basically you just fallow a preset path that was setup for you to win every battle and always progress forward. I guess there is nothing wrong with that if you don't really have any interest in competing at all.
What I compete with in WoW is oxygen, as it has 1000000001 trolls.
Don't feed the animals, please!
I'm not saying contested dungeons/mobs are always fun. Sometimes you fail to get loot. Someone might steal the kill you have been waiting for. It's still better than having no real competition at all. It's part of why PvE is a joke in MMOs and even single player games now.
I see MMORPGs primarily as cooperative games so having contested dungeons robs the game of its meaning. If I wanted to compete against other players I would be playing a PvP game. Any feature designed to reduce cooperation between players has no place in a PvE game.
. All we are talking about is a OPEN world zone no different then The Barrens.. There are zones that are snowbound, some that are tropical, some like a desert.. so why not have one that is underground.. Are you catching on yet?
Because i don't want others to kill steal when i kill the boss?
Just look for WordPress, Blogger or Tumblr blogs associated with "Old School MMORPGs". Look for Twitter posts or Facebook groups. You can find these things for people who played old school Nintendo games (and still play them), or things like Fountain Pens. Not so much the old school MMORPGs.
"Old school" games are also old. Of course there is very little buzz around a 17 year old game like UO. You'd be better using the failure of Vanguard to prove your point but that had so many issues that I don't think you can say it was clearly a rejection of the mechanics.
The only way we will know if specific old school mechanics are not wanted is if games try them and fail in this market. Good thing I think we are entering an era with many more niche MMOs who will have to experiment with non-mainstream mechanics both new and old so I'm sure in a few years we will know one way or the other.
Truth is some old mechanics will probably stay dead while others might make a comeback.
That's not to say elements of older style games won't show up. I think it is less likely than with other aspects of MMORPGs. Maybe they'll be non-linear or not on a script, but I do not think we'll see a return to dungeons that take more than a single game session to complete or fail. Those game sessions aren't going to be the four or more hour sessions either.
. All we are talking about is a OPEN world zone no different then The Barrens.. There are zones that are snowbound, some that are tropical, some like a desert.. so why not have one that is underground.. Are you catching on yet?
Because i don't want others to kill steal when i kill the boss?
Kill steal what boss? I said dungeons would be like any other open world zone like "the barrens" and how many BOSSES are in the Barrens... I'll be waiting for a correct answer.. LOL
Originally posted by Fenrir767 I have to disagree with that opinion. My time is to valuable to be wasted due to competition for mobs etc. I want to be able to progress my way unhindered but that type of mechanic.
Then again that's my opinion if you enjoy that type of competition fine but I think any mechanic that can waste my time is just bad design.
I don't understand this attitude. If you lives pursuit is to do things you deem valuable then go do those things. A person such as yourself probably considers gaming as a waste of time. Why not just find something more valuable to do like volunteer. Personally I'd rather just play games and I set a fair amount of time aside to do so. The problem is that most people don't do the same and instead whine when things aren't easy or take a fair amount of their time precious time away from them.
Isn't the TOPIC suppose to be about OPEN WORLD DUNGEONS..
And back to 1998 again with CONTESTED dungeons where all the campers and griefers made online life hell?
There's a reason why instances came to be, and why so many prefer them...so they don't have to deal with group A taking the whole dungeon for themselves.
I never was thrilled with it, but I considered it part of the challenge and what gave the game some meaning. Without real people to contest with for things the game becomes very simple and to a large extent boring. Basically you just fallow a preset path that was setup for you to win every battle and always progress forward. I guess there is nothing wrong with that if you don't really have any interest in competing at all.
What I compete with in WoW is oxygen, as it has 1000000001 trolls.
Don't feed the animals, please!
I'm not saying contested dungeons/mobs are always fun. Sometimes you fail to get loot. Someone might steal the kill you have been waiting for. It's still better than having no real competition at all. It's part of why PvE is a joke in MMOs and even single player games now.
I see MMORPGs primarily as cooperative games so having contested dungeons robs the game of its meaning. If I wanted to compete against other players I would be playing a PvP game. Any feature designed to reduce cooperation between players has no place in a PvE game.
In PvE there can be a lot of competition too. Often it is better than PvP because people are dying left and right and losing all their items to other people. I like to see a little competition for items in a game. It keeps everyone from getting all the good items.
. All we are talking about is a OPEN world zone no different then The Barrens.. There are zones that are snowbound, some that are tropical, some like a desert.. so why not have one that is underground.. Are you catching on yet?
Because i don't want others to kill steal when i kill the boss?
Kill steal what boss? I said dungeons would be like any other open world zone like "the barrens" and how many BOSSES are in the Barrens... I'll be waiting for a correct answer.. LOL
How about just kill steal?
Or just i don't want others not in my group in my game?
In PvE there can be a lot of competition too. Often it is better than PvP because people are dying left and right and losing all their items to other people. I like to see a little competition for items in a game. It keeps everyone from getting all the good items.
What if i prefer not to have any competition with other players in my pve games? I only want to defeat NPCs and i don't want other player to interfere.
. All we are talking about is a OPEN world zone no different then The Barrens.. There are zones that are snowbound, some that are tropical, some like a desert.. so why not have one that is underground.. Are you catching on yet?
Because i don't want others to kill steal when i kill the boss?
Kill steal what boss? I said dungeons would be like any other open world zone like "the barrens" and how many BOSSES are in the Barrens... I'll be waiting for a correct answer.. LOL
How about just kill steal?
Or just i don't want others not in my group in my game?
So basically you want your OWN private server, where NO ONE is allowed in your world unless invited? WoW.. That would make Stormwind very empty.. LOL
So basically you want your OWN private server, where NO ONE is allowed in your world unless invited? WoW.. That would make Stormwind very empty.. LOL
Pretty much ... or instances will suffice, you don't need private servers to fend off others. And stormwind can act as the lobby .. but it does not make a huge difference for me if the lobby is a menu like in D3.
I strongly agree that there has a been a loss when it concerns dungeons. Now as to why that is the case it seems that there has been more focus on 'instant' gratification which in turn has made the risk vs reward scale lopsided to reward.
I look at it also as a microcosm to the last hundred years or so of western civilization that has trained the public at large as consumers instead of producers. And look at the first series of dungeons as pre consumer based games (e.g., dnd,pnp, muds,first gen mmos).
There is nothing competitive about being the first out off 10 groups to hit your 1 key after a boss mob spawns...that is most definitely wasting time...
If simplified dungeons is the symptom, what's the cause?
The average gamer is as follows;
50/50 Male Female
36 to 37 YEARS OLD
Is it any surprised that the trend is towards 'less consecutive time in a hole in the ground'?
10 years ago, yeah, the average gamer had heaps of free time.
Now more than 50% is approaching 40s and would have things like 'kids / partner / jobs'.
Hogwash.
When PnP came out we actually had chores that didn't do themselves, phones connected to the wall, meals incapable of being thrown into a microwave because there was none and I had to go to the bank to cash a check instead of using a mobile app. Technology has given people more free time than ever before.
OP is right dungeons are stupid easy and the reason is "lazy hurry up and get done" players are what today's MMO's are marketed to. Twich will often have listed between 5 thru 8 in total viewers PnP tabletop D&D.
My bucket list is a proper dungeon grind MMO.
I agree with you and the OP oh and heres something else thats funny. If you ever played Wow at release or before TBC then you did a few dangerous and long (2-3hr if not longer) dungeons.
I came to Wow from UO which made the super easy to me, but that was one of the things i did enjoy about it were how long they were, how much thinking and strat and teamwork it took to do those early dungeons. Then its almost like either the gene pool got worse, the devs got lazy or a combo of both.
TBC still had some tough (not so much vast) dungeons but they got progressively easier than the vanilla ones.
Now its whats even the point? stand still, wait to be teleported, get some drops that youre just gonna trash, get some tokens to cash in on "better" gear which will let you get into yet another dungeon / raid where youre req. to stand still in a town and wait to be teleported into..........fun right?
Amen, seriously! I was just posting something similar (and far, far less detailed) in another thread pertaining to lack of dungeon raids in ESO (I'm fine if it's not a raid, I just wish it would be compelling, cavernous, open, dangerous and huge - like the original EQ dungeons). Even if the dungeon needs to be instanced, there's no reason why it can't invoke the true feeling of a monstrous, dangerous dungeon that requires careful thinking and progression.
So preach on, Elikal. I'm with ya 100%!
I make spreadsheets at work - I don't want to make them for the games I play.
I'm not saying contested dungeons/mobs are always fun. Sometimes you fail to get loot. Someone might steal the kill you have been waiting for. It's still better than having no real competition at all. It's part of why PvE is a joke in MMOs and even single player games now.
I see MMORPGs primarily as cooperative games so having contested dungeons robs the game of its meaning. If I wanted to compete against other players I would be playing a PvP game. Any feature designed to reduce cooperation between players has no place in a PvE game.
In PvE there can be a lot of competition too. Often it is better than PvP because people are dying left and right and losing all their items to other people. I like to see a little competition for items in a game. It keeps everyone from getting all the good items.
I actually see that type of scenario as a design failure. In a social, cooperative game players should not be acting like scavengers hoping that their fellow players fail. When two players or groups of players meet in a dungeon they should be eager to cooperate since doing so will be of net benefit to everyone. If the players have to always compete for scraps of content, it creates an ant-social dog-eat-dog poisonous atmosphere that prompts players to prefer instanced content.
I'm not saying contested dungeons/mobs are always fun. Sometimes you fail to get loot. Someone might steal the kill you have been waiting for. It's still better than having no real competition at all. It's part of why PvE is a joke in MMOs and even single player games now.
I see MMORPGs primarily as cooperative games so having contested dungeons robs the game of its meaning. If I wanted to compete against other players I would be playing a PvP game. Any feature designed to reduce cooperation between players has no place in a PvE game.
In PvE there can be a lot of competition too. Often it is better than PvP because people are dying left and right and losing all their items to other people. I like to see a little competition for items in a game. It keeps everyone from getting all the good items.
I actually see that type of scenario as a design failure. In a social, cooperative game players should not be acting like scavengers hoping that their fellow players fail. When two players or groups of players meet in a dungeon they should be eager to cooperate since doing so will be of net benefit to everyone. If the players have to always compete for scraps of content, it creates an ant-social dog-eat-dog poisonous atmosphere that prompts players to prefer instanced content.
I see it as an exciting challenge to overcome. It makes the game you feel some emotion of some sort in the game world. When you are just plopping along doing quests and quest and knowing you can't feel it becomes quite lifeless. Having to either cooperate with others or try to get the better of them in the game makes the difference. I'm not sure how people can enjoy having everything just flow naturally with no resistance in a game. It makes victory feel especially hollow. One could argue it's hollow anyway, but that could be said for most games in existence (sports, board games, any games).
Isn't the TOPIC suppose to be about OPEN WORLD DUNGEONS..
And back to 1998 again with CONTESTED dungeons where all the campers and griefers made online life hell?
You mean, the other players of the game? Open world dungeons, where the other players rezzed me when I fell, chased off the monsters that were killing my group, showed me how to navigate to the best places, the ones who invited me to their groups and played with me for hours deep into the night, giving me my best memories and longest online friends? In all my years of playing MMOs without dungeons, I've encountered kill stealing TWICE. Ever. And you know what? Those players are outside of instances too, so stop using that as an excuse.
There's a reason why instances came to be yes, because EverQuest was rather poorly designed and they had to put it in to keep the game moving. From there, its mostly because WoW uses them, and WoW uses them because its a copy paste job of the worst parts of EverQuest. Instances exist in WoW clones because they're super easy and a lazy way to balance the game. It takes actual game design knowledge to make a game world without them, something most AAA devs aren't allowed to use while making their WoW clones. , and why so many prefer them source?...so they don't have to deal with group A taking the whole dungeon for themselves. That is literally impossible even in MMOs that were poorly designed enough so that people had to camp spawns (EQ). Dungeons were big enough for about a dozen groups happily living there.
Isn't the TOPIC suppose to be about OPEN WORLD DUNGEONS..
And back to 1998 again with CONTESTED dungeons where all the campers and griefers made online life hell?
You mean, the other players of the game? Open world dungeons, where the other players rezzed me when I fell, chased off the monsters that were killing my group, showed me how to navigate to the best places, the ones who invited me to their groups and played with me for hours deep into the night, giving me my best memories and longest online friends? In all my years of playing MMOs without dungeons, I've encountered kill stealing TWICE. Ever. And you know what? Those players are outside of instances too, so stop using that as an excuse.
There's a reason why instances came to be yes, because EverQuest was rather poorly designed and they had to put it in to keep the game moving. From there, its mostly because WoW uses them, and WoW uses them because its a copy paste job of the worst parts of EverQuest. Instances exist in WoW clones because they're super easy and a lazy way to balance the game. It takes actual game design knowledge to make a game world without them [*cough* bullshit *cough*], something most AAA devs aren't allowed to use while making their WoW clones. , and why so many prefer them source?...so they don't have to deal with group A taking the whole dungeon for themselves. That is literally impossible even in MMOs that were poorly designed enough so that people had to camp spawns (EQ). Dungeons were big enough for about a dozen groups happily living there.
Some revisionist history going on here
I am anxious to see you defend that point you just made.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Isn't the TOPIC suppose to be about OPEN WORLD DUNGEONS..
And back to 1998 again with CONTESTED dungeons where all the campers and griefers made online life hell?
You mean, the other players of the game? Open world dungeons, where the other players rezzed me when I fell, chased off the monsters that were killing my group, showed me how to navigate to the best places, the ones who invited me to their groups and played with me for hours deep into the night, giving me my best memories and longest online friends? In all my years of playing MMOs without dungeons, I've encountered kill stealing TWICE. Ever. And you know what? Those players are outside of instances too, so stop using that as an excuse.
There's a reason why instances came to be yes, because EverQuest was rather poorly designed and they had to put it in to keep the game moving. From there, its mostly because WoW uses them, and WoW uses them because its a copy paste job of the worst parts of EverQuest. Instances exist in WoW clones because they're super easy and a lazy way to balance the game. It takes actual game design knowledge to make a game world without them [*cough* bullshit *cough*], something most AAA devs aren't allowed to use while making their WoW clones. , and why so many prefer them source?...so they don't have to deal with group A taking the whole dungeon for themselves. That is literally impossible even in MMOs that were poorly designed enough so that people had to camp spawns (EQ). Dungeons were big enough for about a dozen groups happily living there.
Some revisionist history going on here
I am anxious to see you defend that point you just made.
When you make a game world with a linear path of power progression, based primarily on gear gaining, as well as making certain areas far more worthwhile to play in than the others, you're going to get contested content. When you have ONE end game activity in your game, raiding, and make the raiding a linear progression with long respawns, you're going to get contested content. EQ had these issues.
Camps and gear that were so much better than EVERYTHING else that everyone clustered in those places, camping.
Same for raids.
DAoC didn't have this issue because it made a point to not have specific items that were way better than all other ones AND ON TOP OF THAT have the best dropped items in the game have comparable stats to crafted items. This allowed people to spread out and pursue what they wanted. That, and the camp bonus system which gave you bonus xp for killing mobs that haven't been touched in a while.
Same with end game. DAoC end game had trophy hunting, housing, crafting, RvR, and raiding. The raiding wasn't tierred so you could raid wherever you wanted with whoever. Whats more, the gear that dropped from raids, while cosmetically looked special, stat wise they were on par with crafted gear.
Want to RvR and ignore raiding? Just use crafted gear.
I don't blame EQ for having these issues, it was one of the first MMOs (though the designers should have known better from their MUD days). DAoC fixed all of these issues with GAME DESIGN, not instancing. And that takes a comprehensive understanding of how all the moving parts play together. Modern MMO designers aren't allowed to tinker with the formula, they're tasked by publishers with churning out WoW clones, and WoW uses instances, because it wasn't made by game designers, it was made by EQ raiders who just made an easier EQ.
Amen, seriously! I was just posting something similar (and far, far less detailed) in another thread pertaining to lack of dungeon raids in ESO (I'm fine if it's not a raid, I just wish it would be compelling, cavernous, open, dangerous and huge - like the original EQ dungeons). Even if the dungeon needs to be instanced, there's no reason why it can't invoke the true feeling of a monstrous, dangerous dungeon that requires careful thinking and progression.
So preach on, Elikal. I'm with ya 100%!
Hehe. Let's all go on a Holy Crusade for Cool Dungeons!
Church of the True Dungeon! And our holy symbol is the chequered paper!
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Really great post OP and great examples. I don't really have anything to add to the conversation other than that I completely agree and miss epic dungeons. I just hope some day we can get a newer game that embraces them.
I actually see that type of scenario as a design failure. In a social, cooperative game players should not be acting like scavengers hoping that their fellow players fail. When two players or groups of players meet in a dungeon they should be eager to cooperate since doing so will be of net benefit to everyone. If the players have to always compete for scraps of content, it creates an ant-social dog-eat-dog poisonous atmosphere that prompts players to prefer instanced content.
And instances are one good, standard solution. More more competition, discord, or whatever that can plague two groups .. because you will not find another group in the dungeon.
It has the added benefit for the devs to tune the dungeon with better known parameters.
I'm not saying contested dungeons/mobs are always fun. Sometimes you fail to get loot. Someone might steal the kill you have been waiting for. It's still better than having no real competition at all. It's part of why PvE is a joke in MMOs and even single player games now.
I see MMORPGs primarily as cooperative games so having contested dungeons robs the game of its meaning. If I wanted to compete against other players I would be playing a PvP game. Any feature designed to reduce cooperation between players has no place in a PvE game.
In PvE there can be a lot of competition too. Often it is better than PvP because people are dying left and right and losing all their items to other people. I like to see a little competition for items in a game. It keeps everyone from getting all the good items.
I actually see that type of scenario as a design failure. In a social, cooperative game players should not be acting like scavengers hoping that their fellow players fail. When two players or groups of players meet in a dungeon they should be eager to cooperate since doing so will be of net benefit to everyone. If the players have to always compete for scraps of content, it creates an ant-social dog-eat-dog poisonous atmosphere that prompts players to prefer instanced content.
I so agree!
It's what I loved GW2 for: finally players are each other's friends and helpers and no longer every other player is a potential enemy. (Unless you go to PVP.)
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Comments
I see MMORPGs primarily as cooperative games so having contested dungeons robs the game of its meaning. If I wanted to compete against other players I would be playing a PvP game. Any feature designed to reduce cooperation between players has no place in a PvE game.
Yes because WOW is old style by now. UO & EQ is ancient by gaming years.
Because i don't want others to kill steal when i kill the boss?
"Old school" games are also old. Of course there is very little buzz around a 17 year old game like UO. You'd be better using the failure of Vanguard to prove your point but that had so many issues that I don't think you can say it was clearly a rejection of the mechanics.
The only way we will know if specific old school mechanics are not wanted is if games try them and fail in this market. Good thing I think we are entering an era with many more niche MMOs who will have to experiment with non-mainstream mechanics both new and old so I'm sure in a few years we will know one way or the other.
Truth is some old mechanics will probably stay dead while others might make a comeback.
I basically agree with this part.
I don't know about others .. but i am pretty sure what kind of mechanics I will stay away from.
Kill steal what boss? I said dungeons would be like any other open world zone like "the barrens" and how many BOSSES are in the Barrens... I'll be waiting for a correct answer.. LOL
I don't understand this attitude. If you lives pursuit is to do things you deem valuable then go do those things. A person such as yourself probably considers gaming as a waste of time. Why not just find something more valuable to do like volunteer. Personally I'd rather just play games and I set a fair amount of time aside to do so. The problem is that most people don't do the same and instead whine when things aren't easy or take a fair amount of their time precious time away from them.
In PvE there can be a lot of competition too. Often it is better than PvP because people are dying left and right and losing all their items to other people. I like to see a little competition for items in a game. It keeps everyone from getting all the good items.
How about just kill steal?
Or just i don't want others not in my group in my game?
What if i prefer not to have any competition with other players in my pve games? I only want to defeat NPCs and i don't want other player to interfere.
So basically you want your OWN private server, where NO ONE is allowed in your world unless invited? WoW.. That would make Stormwind very empty.. LOL
Pretty much ... or instances will suffice, you don't need private servers to fend off others. And stormwind can act as the lobby .. but it does not make a huge difference for me if the lobby is a menu like in D3.
I strongly agree that there has a been a loss when it concerns dungeons. Now as to why that is the case it seems that there has been more focus on 'instant' gratification which in turn has made the risk vs reward scale lopsided to reward.
I look at it also as a microcosm to the last hundred years or so of western civilization that has trained the public at large as consumers instead of producers. And look at the first series of dungeons as pre consumer based games (e.g., dnd,pnp, muds,first gen mmos).
I agree with you and the OP oh and heres something else thats funny. If you ever played Wow at release or before TBC then you did a few dangerous and long (2-3hr if not longer) dungeons.
I came to Wow from UO which made the super easy to me, but that was one of the things i did enjoy about it were how long they were, how much thinking and strat and teamwork it took to do those early dungeons. Then its almost like either the gene pool got worse, the devs got lazy or a combo of both.
TBC still had some tough (not so much vast) dungeons but they got progressively easier than the vanilla ones.
Now its whats even the point? stand still, wait to be teleported, get some drops that youre just gonna trash, get some tokens to cash in on "better" gear which will let you get into yet another dungeon / raid where youre req. to stand still in a town and wait to be teleported into..........fun right?
TESTIFY BROTHER ELIKAL!
Amen, seriously! I was just posting something similar (and far, far less detailed) in another thread pertaining to lack of dungeon raids in ESO (I'm fine if it's not a raid, I just wish it would be compelling, cavernous, open, dangerous and huge - like the original EQ dungeons). Even if the dungeon needs to be instanced, there's no reason why it can't invoke the true feeling of a monstrous, dangerous dungeon that requires careful thinking and progression.
So preach on, Elikal. I'm with ya 100%!
I make spreadsheets at work - I don't want to make them for the games I play.
I actually see that type of scenario as a design failure. In a social, cooperative game players should not be acting like scavengers hoping that their fellow players fail. When two players or groups of players meet in a dungeon they should be eager to cooperate since doing so will be of net benefit to everyone. If the players have to always compete for scraps of content, it creates an ant-social dog-eat-dog poisonous atmosphere that prompts players to prefer instanced content.
I see it as an exciting challenge to overcome. It makes the game you feel some emotion of some sort in the game world. When you are just plopping along doing quests and quest and knowing you can't feel it becomes quite lifeless. Having to either cooperate with others or try to get the better of them in the game makes the difference. I'm not sure how people can enjoy having everything just flow naturally with no resistance in a game. It makes victory feel especially hollow. One could argue it's hollow anyway, but that could be said for most games in existence (sports, board games, any games).
Some revisionist history going on here
I am anxious to see you defend that point you just made.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
When you make a game world with a linear path of power progression, based primarily on gear gaining, as well as making certain areas far more worthwhile to play in than the others, you're going to get contested content. When you have ONE end game activity in your game, raiding, and make the raiding a linear progression with long respawns, you're going to get contested content. EQ had these issues.
Camps and gear that were so much better than EVERYTHING else that everyone clustered in those places, camping.
Same for raids.
DAoC didn't have this issue because it made a point to not have specific items that were way better than all other ones AND ON TOP OF THAT have the best dropped items in the game have comparable stats to crafted items. This allowed people to spread out and pursue what they wanted. That, and the camp bonus system which gave you bonus xp for killing mobs that haven't been touched in a while.
Same with end game. DAoC end game had trophy hunting, housing, crafting, RvR, and raiding. The raiding wasn't tierred so you could raid wherever you wanted with whoever. Whats more, the gear that dropped from raids, while cosmetically looked special, stat wise they were on par with crafted gear.
Want to RvR and ignore raiding? Just use crafted gear.
I don't blame EQ for having these issues, it was one of the first MMOs (though the designers should have known better from their MUD days). DAoC fixed all of these issues with GAME DESIGN, not instancing. And that takes a comprehensive understanding of how all the moving parts play together. Modern MMO designers aren't allowed to tinker with the formula, they're tasked by publishers with churning out WoW clones, and WoW uses instances, because it wasn't made by game designers, it was made by EQ raiders who just made an easier EQ.
Done. Next question?
Hehe. Let's all go on a Holy Crusade for Cool Dungeons!
Church of the True Dungeon! And our holy symbol is the chequered paper!
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
And instances are one good, standard solution. More more competition, discord, or whatever that can plague two groups .. because you will not find another group in the dungeon.
It has the added benefit for the devs to tune the dungeon with better known parameters.
I so agree!
It's what I loved GW2 for: finally players are each other's friends and helpers and no longer every other player is a potential enemy. (Unless you go to PVP.)
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert