Originally posted by Quirhid There is no safer market than the mainstream. You simply don't know how much of the old school MMORPGs' success can be attributed to sheer novelty. You don't know how many people would actually play an old school game today.
Those are very good points.
I know I got into them in the first place for the novelty of them, and the hope that I could get into a kind of D&D online with other players.
I also have no clue how many would play "old school" MMORPGs today. I say, let's find out
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by Quirhid There is no safer market than the mainstream. You simply don't know how much of the old school MMORPGs' success can be attributed to sheer novelty. You don't know how many people would actually play an old school game today.
Those are very good points.
I know I got into them in the first place for the novelty of them, and the hope that I could get into a kind of D&D online with other players.
I also have no clue how many would play "old school" MMORPGs today. I say, let's find out
I'm one of them.. I started playing RPG's with AD&D and my dice bag.. LOL It was the reason why I jumped into EQ.. EQ was my online opportunity to play AD&D without waiting every other weekend for friends.. Today's games feel like co-op version of single player console games, or PvP like Counter-strike..
Dev's keep trying to tap into the next big McDonald's potential and often fall short.. I've pretty much given up hope for any true online version of AD&D that isn't instanced to death..
So many people that have never played Dota (or any of the clones including LoL) that it's kind of shocking almost..
Some of the nonsense that's being said...
Do they offer a Holy paladin sub-class?
If not, why would I even be interested?
Until these newer games truly offer class/sub-class builds that can even resemble what I have in WoW, they won't get my money nor time. That's where DDO and RIFT failed. Yes, you can make interesting multi-classes and sub-classes, but not the class I seek to play.
LoL has a Holy paladin someday, I'd try it for it's novelty (waves at Ghostcrawler...brahahaha!).
Originally posted by Quirhid There is no safer market than the mainstream. You simply don't know how much of the old school MMORPGs' success can be attributed to sheer novelty. You don't know how many people would actually play an old school game today.
Those are very good points.
I know I got into them in the first place for the novelty of them, and the hope that I could get into a kind of D&D online with other players.
I also have no clue how many would play "old school" MMORPGs today. I say, let's find out
I'm one of them.. I started playing RPG's with AD&D and my dice bag.. LOL It was the reason why I jumped into EQ.. EQ was my online opportunity to play AD&D without waiting every other weekend for friends.. Today's games feel like co-op version of single player console games, or PvP like Counter-strike..
Dev's keep trying to tap into the next big McDonald's potential and often fall short.. I've pretty much given up hope for any true online version of AD&D that isn't instanced to death..
CORPGs (instanced ones) such as DDO and GW1 are much more inline with what PnP D&D is like, because both are mainly about the co-op experience and story.
I can't help but feel that you are looking for that PnP feel from the wrong place by playing MMORPGs. They offer a very different experience.
And must you really use troll-baits like the fast-food metaphor?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Just about every genre of game that is quick casual with lots of action have a larger appeal than mmo's do. More people play online poker than play mmos.
MMOs are a big time commitment even for casual players. I read somewhere the avg time spent on phone games is less than 15 minutes a session. The genres are really apples and oranges when it comes to why games are popular.
This. My two sons played Wow for 4 years and then got bored. They tried other mmos but did not stick with them for more than 60 days. They moved to League of Legends soon after it came out and have stayed there off and on since. Ironically the only game that got them out of LOL was Heartstone.
Me, I still like MMOs and am still playing WOW and more rarely GW2. It is funny. I really enjoyed leveling in WOW until Cata (I leveled up 9 toons to max level). Since then I have leveled just one toon to 90 - a Panderan Monk. I doubt if I would do so again if the monk extra training was not available.
"Lots of Action" is a key phrase. I think that the MMO companies are trying to fight back on MOBAs with "action combat". The problem is that this locks out a lot of the older players and those without fast reflexes. Action combat caters to the young and the young are more likely to be bored, action combat or not, by any extended grinding. This is why pvp is so big in action combat games (example: GW2). Action combat works well with pvp but for long term grinding - no.
Ignore the above for the Asian market. They like grinding (I spent two years in Lineage 2 seeing this). However, even in the Asian market the number of traditional, grinding MMOs is losing out to MOBAs.
Originally posted by Apraxis Just wait until the Dungeon/Raid Instance Single/simple Multiplayer games appear to deliver that experience.. you really don't need a MMO for that bullshit.
ARPGs are already the dungeon instance experience without the MMOs .. and they are popular. D3 sold 15M copies, and many are playing PoE, and TL2.
Personally i like this kind of "focused" games more than MMOs.
I wish MORE players would realize this and leave the MMO genre altogether so we could have our games back.
I do not think the end result would be what you think it will be.
At the worst, we go back to the EQ days, when the genre sported several million players between the top 3 games. It was busy enough and made enough money and we had the virtual worlds we wanted, not the watered down arcade games of today.
Originally posted by AlBQuirkyMMORPGs did just fine before this massive influx of new players that never liked the genre in the first place.
If you consider 500k players for the most popular MMORPG at the time "fine".
There's a difference between having new players who adapt, and having dinosaurs who prefer only "old skool" and refuse to adapt, too.
Think about it..
EverQuest made money. BIG money. As did UO. Many of the "old MORPGs" made good money. Sure, nowhere NEAR what these pieces of crap rake in day after day these days, but good amounts.
Let's see... 500,000*15=7,5000,000 a month. Can you run an MMORPG on that budget? PLUS, many of those players stuck around for YEARS, not weeks or months. STEADY income there.
EQ is still kicking after 15 years, still making money, though it did go F2P. If companies shoot for "WoW numbers", they are ALWAYS disappointed. I, as a player, would LOVE to get MMORPGs shooting for smaller numbers again.
No they didn't. Their populations ( which never hit 500k btw ) where just as unstable as these new ones where they just lasted a bit longer because fewer mmos where made for the flock of sea gulls to migrate to.
You can google the population numbers for any one of them and see just how unstable they really were. It's like looking at a row of dominoes for mmo launches. Sure each one hit 250k-350k but it was the same people. There isn't a huge crossover where each one was sitting at it's peak at the same time.
the only reason they're considered a success is because back then 150k ( a more realistic sub number ) was still considered a big success for susstained numbers. Now it's red lights flashing, shred the files and get ready to shut things down territory.
You want to see an example of what happens to an old school game that shoots for EQ numbers, look at eldevin (sp?). It had a good start and good reviews. I saw a post today where someone said there was 150 people online.
People want to be in the big flashy popular game. the little campy flash backs are fun for a while be they don't have the magic of the old games. It's that old saying once you've seen the lights of the big city you can't go back to the farm....or in this case the cave.
Quite untrue about the "same people" playing UO, EQ, AC and DAoC, before WoW came out. You are close to correct on max subs at any given time, but we know for a fact that EQ alone had more than 2 million distinct subscriptions over the period of time before WoW came out, they never retained more than 450+ K at any given time period. That shows there was already a sizeable audience even back then, they just didn't like EQ specifically, but they weren't moaning for MOBAs either. MOBAs were made to appeal to console gamers, not casual MMO gamers and their numbers reflect that, much more so than some belief that they are siphoning off of the MMO genre.
CORPGs (instanced ones) such as DDO and GW1 are much more inline with what PnP D&D is like, because both are mainly about the co-op experience and story.
I can't help but feel that you are looking for that PnP feel from the wrong place by playing MMORPGs. They offer a very different experience.
This is an excellent point. I played some AD&D in grad school, it was never about anything massive. It was about small groups going on an adventure.
A SP RPG with a good story and scripted scene is much closer to that than MMOs.
At the worst, we go back to the EQ days, when the genre sported several million players between the top 3 games. It was busy enough and made enough money and we had the virtual worlds we wanted, not the watered down arcade games of today.
I doubt you can still find millions that will spend their lives on a EQ kind of game.
However, it is not me you need to convince. It is the devs that you need to convince if you want such a game. But you are right on one point, most gamers will move onto something else.
.....And football is 10x more popular then hockey but it's still pretty easy to buy hockey tickets if one wants to....I kinda fail to see the point here.
CORPGs (instanced ones) such as DDO and GW1 are much more inline with what PnP D&D is like, because both are mainly about the co-op experience and story.
I can't help but feel that you are looking for that PnP feel from the wrong place by playing MMORPGs. They offer a very different experience.
This is an excellent point. I played some AD&D in grad school, it was never about anything massive. It was about small groups going on an adventure.
A SP RPG with a good story and scripted scene is much closer to that than MMOs.
I disagree with that. Aside from Virtual Table Top PnP..... I'd say the closest thing to PnP would be something like NWN servers or MUDs/MUSH's. Not todays MMO's but definately CO-OP and where you had a capacity for a human GM controling the environment. PnP was very much a shared experience, often heavly focused on role-playing and and one which allowed for much greater player input into the narrative of the story. A SP RPG would be much more analogous with one of those "Choose your own Adventure" books they used to publish.
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2 .....And football is 10x more popular then hockey but it's still pretty easy to buy hockey tickets if one wants to....I kinda fail to see the point here.
But football teams are not switching to play hockey .. as Blizz is now doing a MOBA in favor of a MMORPG.
You don't think the rise of a similar genre, with lots of overlapped audience, is relevant?
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2 .....And football is 10x more popular then hockey but it's still pretty easy to buy hockey tickets if one wants to....I kinda fail to see the point here.
I loathe moba games just as much as i loathe games that carry out the full PvP looting features in mmo's. I hate certain people out there that is contently growing out there in the world, these type of people that most people who play these horrendous moba games calls them "toxic" players.
What are Toxic Players? Toxic players have the following things they loved to so:
Excessively feed the enemy team and play horribly during matches, and put the blame against other team-mates
Contently harass the player during the match
Become silent thoughout the rest of the game, never call out for MIA, or warn people
Ping Spam the entire game after death
speak in foriegn langauge such as russian and brazillian, and never speak any english like the rest of the team.
People who pretend that this is "just a game" when this game is very competitive and most taken seriously.
refuse to surrender on the match when we face a serious lost (20 us vs 60 them).
These issues are what I have been suffering from EACH AND EVERY GOD DAMN ROUND IN EVERY SINGLE GOD DAMN MOBA GAME!
Moba games should be banned thoughout the world, the games is not fun, it's not entertaining, it's a center for the worst kinds of the poeple that I've ever meet in my entire life, the games is nothing more then pure fucking stress and agony. It's PVP combined with unsportmenship to the max, the games are nothing more then a cash grab, a waste of time, and many other vile evil shit that goes inside that game. I have found no fun, and gain nothing more then stress that I'm surprised I've not grown grey hair at the age of 25.
Moba games should be banned thoughout the world, the games is not fun, it's not entertaining, it's a center for the worst kinds of the poeple that I've ever meet in my entire life,
Wow .. way to try to push your own preference on others.
It is not fun to YOU.
It is not entertaining to YOU.
Given that many millions of players spending hundred of millions of hours playing MOBAs, i would say it is fun to them.
No one is forcing you to play MOBAs, but why should others give up their fun just because of you?
Moba games should be banned thoughout the world, the games is not fun, it's not entertaining, it's a center for the worst kinds of the poeple that I've ever meet in my entire life,
Wow .. way to try to push your own preference on others.
It is not fun to YOU.
It is not entertaining to YOU.
Given that many millions of players spending hundred of millions of hours playing MOBAs, i would say it is fun to them.
No one is forcing you to play MOBAs, but why should others give up their fun just because of you?
Moba games should be banned thoughout the world, the games is not fun, it's not entertaining, it's a center for the worst kinds of the poeple that I've ever meet in my entire life,
Wow .. way to try to push your own preference on others.
It is not fun to YOU.
It is not entertaining to YOU.
Given that many millions of players spending hundred of millions of hours playing MOBAs, i would say it is fun to them.
No one is forcing you to play MOBAs, but why should others give up their fun just because of you?
I hate it when I say that certain games should be banned, but honestly, this is the only genre that I want it that should never appear again, if you read thoughout my post and my reason's for why i said such a thing, then you would understand that these games are nothing more then troll haven with trolls having the power to ban innocent people and disrupt gameplay for everyone, the game is NOT FUN, the game is NOT ENTERTAINING, it's the element of stress and agony combined. It's like i'm in middle school all over again when the rest of the god damn students are sadistic bullies that torment one another!
Your whole debate is basically a "chicken or the egg" type of argument.
Moba's were created by the genres that came before. Today they are the flavor of the week. Tomorrow the Moba will have an influence on a new genre that will overtake the Moba in popularity.
Taste's will change.... always have and always will.
If things worked in the way that you seem to believe, We'd all be playing "pokerstars.net
Your whole debate is basically a "chicken or the egg" type of argument.
Moba's were created by the genres that came before. Today they are the flavor of the week. Tomorrow the Moba will have an influence on a new genre that will overtake the Moba in popularity.
Taste's will change.... always have and always will.
If things worked in the way that you seem to believe, We'd all be playing "pokerstars.net
Ha Ha .. true laser, or we would be playing Farmville MMO..
Moba games should be banned thoughout the world, the games is not fun, it's not entertaining, it's a center for the worst kinds of the poeple that I've ever meet in my entire life,
Wow .. way to try to push your own preference on others.
It is not fun to YOU.
It is not entertaining to YOU.
Given that many millions of players spending hundred of millions of hours playing MOBAs, i would say it is fun to them.
No one is forcing you to play MOBAs, but why should others give up their fun just because of you?
Where is my MIRROR icon.. lol
You can't find it .. because i never push my preference to anyone... i only state them as such and never said what the genre "should" do.
I hate it when I say that certain games should be banned, but honestly, this is the only genre that I want it that should never appear again, if you read thoughout my post and my reason's for why i said such a thing, then you would understand that these games are nothing more then troll haven with trolls having the power to ban innocent people and disrupt gameplay for everyone, the game is NOT FUN, the game is NOT ENTERTAINING, it's the element of stress and agony combined. It's like i'm in middle school all over again when the rest of the god damn students are sadistic bullies that torment one another!
If the game is not fun and not entertaining, why would millions play it? Sure, it is not fun and not entertaining TO YOU.
Are you saying other people are not allowed to have fun as long as you don't like it?
Moba's were created by the genres that came before. Today they are the flavor of the week. Tomorrow the Moba will have an influence on a new genre that will overtake the Moba in popularity.
Taste's will change.... always have and always will.
Agreed. That is why this discussion is increasing with so many posts. Isn't that the point .. now MOBA is the flavor of the week, and not MMO anymore.
It is fun to talk about what is next ... and whether MMO will be more like MOBA, or morphing into, in your words, "an influence on a new genre that will overtake the Moba in popularity"
Moba's were created by the genres that came before. Today they are the flavor of the week. Tomorrow the Moba will have an influence on a new genre that will overtake the Moba in popularity.
Taste's will change.... always have and always will.
Agreed. That is why this discussion is increasing with so many posts. Isn't that the point .. now MOBA is the flavor of the week, and not MMO anymore.
It is fun to talk about what is next ... and whether MMO will be more like MOBA, or morphing into, in your words, "an influence on a new genre that will overtake the Moba in popularity"
Ah....
I'd have to disagree. MMO's have never been the flavor of the week, they are the flavor of this site and with a name like "MMORPG.com" I'd tend to believe it always will be.
I have never even searched for a site called "Moba.com" and quite frankly I have no interest in doing so.
Comments
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
I know I got into them in the first place for the novelty of them, and the hope that I could get into a kind of D&D online with other players.
I also have no clue how many would play "old school" MMORPGs today. I say, let's find out
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
+3..... lol
I'm one of them.. I started playing RPG's with AD&D and my dice bag.. LOL It was the reason why I jumped into EQ.. EQ was my online opportunity to play AD&D without waiting every other weekend for friends.. Today's games feel like co-op version of single player console games, or PvP like Counter-strike..
Dev's keep trying to tap into the next big McDonald's potential and often fall short.. I've pretty much given up hope for any true online version of AD&D that isn't instanced to death..
Do they offer a Holy paladin sub-class?
If not, why would I even be interested?
Until these newer games truly offer class/sub-class builds that can even resemble what I have in WoW, they won't get my money nor time. That's where DDO and RIFT failed. Yes, you can make interesting multi-classes and sub-classes, but not the class I seek to play.
LoL has a Holy paladin someday, I'd try it for it's novelty (waves at Ghostcrawler...brahahaha!).
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
CORPGs (instanced ones) such as DDO and GW1 are much more inline with what PnP D&D is like, because both are mainly about the co-op experience and story.
I can't help but feel that you are looking for that PnP feel from the wrong place by playing MMORPGs. They offer a very different experience.
And must you really use troll-baits like the fast-food metaphor?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
This. My two sons played Wow for 4 years and then got bored. They tried other mmos but did not stick with them for more than 60 days. They moved to League of Legends soon after it came out and have stayed there off and on since. Ironically the only game that got them out of LOL was Heartstone.
Me, I still like MMOs and am still playing WOW and more rarely GW2. It is funny. I really enjoyed leveling in WOW until Cata (I leveled up 9 toons to max level). Since then I have leveled just one toon to 90 - a Panderan Monk. I doubt if I would do so again if the monk extra training was not available.
"Lots of Action" is a key phrase. I think that the MMO companies are trying to fight back on MOBAs with "action combat". The problem is that this locks out a lot of the older players and those without fast reflexes. Action combat caters to the young and the young are more likely to be bored, action combat or not, by any extended grinding. This is why pvp is so big in action combat games (example: GW2). Action combat works well with pvp but for long term grinding - no.
Ignore the above for the Asian market. They like grinding (I spent two years in Lineage 2 seeing this). However, even in the Asian market the number of traditional, grinding MMOs is losing out to MOBAs.
At the worst, we go back to the EQ days, when the genre sported several million players between the top 3 games. It was busy enough and made enough money and we had the virtual worlds we wanted, not the watered down arcade games of today.
Quite untrue about the "same people" playing UO, EQ, AC and DAoC, before WoW came out. You are close to correct on max subs at any given time, but we know for a fact that EQ alone had more than 2 million distinct subscriptions over the period of time before WoW came out, they never retained more than 450+ K at any given time period. That shows there was already a sizeable audience even back then, they just didn't like EQ specifically, but they weren't moaning for MOBAs either. MOBAs were made to appeal to console gamers, not casual MMO gamers and their numbers reflect that, much more so than some belief that they are siphoning off of the MMO genre.
This is an excellent point. I played some AD&D in grad school, it was never about anything massive. It was about small groups going on an adventure.
A SP RPG with a good story and scripted scene is much closer to that than MMOs.
I doubt you can still find millions that will spend their lives on a EQ kind of game.
However, it is not me you need to convince. It is the devs that you need to convince if you want such a game. But you are right on one point, most gamers will move onto something else.
I disagree with that. Aside from Virtual Table Top PnP..... I'd say the closest thing to PnP would be something like NWN servers or MUDs/MUSH's. Not todays MMO's but definately CO-OP and where you had a capacity for a human GM controling the environment. PnP was very much a shared experience, often heavly focused on role-playing and and one which allowed for much greater player input into the narrative of the story. A SP RPG would be much more analogous with one of those "Choose your own Adventure" books they used to publish.
But football teams are not switching to play hockey .. as Blizz is now doing a MOBA in favor of a MMORPG.
You don't think the rise of a similar genre, with lots of overlapped audience, is relevant?
excellent Grumpy.. +3
I loathe moba games just as much as i loathe games that carry out the full PvP looting features in mmo's. I hate certain people out there that is contently growing out there in the world, these type of people that most people who play these horrendous moba games calls them "toxic" players.
What are Toxic Players? Toxic players have the following things they loved to so:
Wow .. way to try to push your own preference on others.
It is not fun to YOU.
It is not entertaining to YOU.
Given that many millions of players spending hundred of millions of hours playing MOBAs, i would say it is fun to them.
No one is forcing you to play MOBAs, but why should others give up their fun just because of you?
Where is my MIRROR icon.. lol
I hate it when I say that certain games should be banned, but honestly, this is the only genre that I want it that should never appear again, if you read thoughout my post and my reason's for why i said such a thing, then you would understand that these games are nothing more then troll haven with trolls having the power to ban innocent people and disrupt gameplay for everyone, the game is NOT FUN, the game is NOT ENTERTAINING, it's the element of stress and agony combined. It's like i'm in middle school all over again when the rest of the god damn students are sadistic bullies that torment one another!
Nari,
Your whole debate is basically a "chicken or the egg" type of argument.
Moba's were created by the genres that came before. Today they are the flavor of the week. Tomorrow the Moba will have an influence on a new genre that will overtake the Moba in popularity.
Taste's will change.... always have and always will.
If things worked in the way that you seem to believe, We'd all be playing "pokerstars.net
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Ha Ha .. true laser, or we would be playing Farmville MMO..
You can't find it .. because i never push my preference to anyone... i only state them as such and never said what the genre "should" do.
If the game is not fun and not entertaining, why would millions play it? Sure, it is not fun and not entertaining TO YOU.
Are you saying other people are not allowed to have fun as long as you don't like it?
Agreed. That is why this discussion is increasing with so many posts. Isn't that the point .. now MOBA is the flavor of the week, and not MMO anymore.
It is fun to talk about what is next ... and whether MMO will be more like MOBA, or morphing into, in your words, "an influence on a new genre that will overtake the Moba in popularity"
Ah....
I'd have to disagree. MMO's have never been the flavor of the week, they are the flavor of this site and with a name like "MMORPG.com" I'd tend to believe it always will be.
I have never even searched for a site called "Moba.com" and quite frankly I have no interest in doing so.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee