Of course you need to defend this because by this metric Star Citizen looks like an incompetent joke as well.
It isn't my fault developers are incompetent liars when it comes to time frames regarding their games. Times frames that even after this long they just won't/can't touch. The goal posts have been moved so many times the net is no longer even relevant.
By that logic every big studio is incompetent since they all have projects that take a long time to make.
If it takes a long time it's because it'a vapourware and dev's are incompeteny when it releases early it's a cash grab and dev's are lazy lol
That's why studios thinj only way to deal with the ArmChair Developers is treat them like mushrooms. Ignore them and leave them in the dark. and that's what most dev's do. Unfortunately crowdfunded studios don't have that option so here we are.
Estimates are not set in stone and neither game development is a straight road. The only constant is change. Embrace it and you'll have a much easier time avoiding the trap of thinking you knows better than professionals while sounding like a jaded old fart. Unless that's where your confort zone is nowadays.
The difference of course is that a big company has actual timelines that they need to justify to the people paying their salary. And in some cases, when the incompetence is discovered those teams are removed and or the game is shelved so as not to throw good money after bad money. Even big companies like Blizzard (Titan) make these kinds of decisions.
So what you suggest? That teams abandon games whenever they take more time than initially planned? How's that an improvement instead of letting teams develop their games at their own pace instead of canceling or burning them with crunch to apease some arbitrary date?
Gamers have the easiest part of the deal, support whatever projects of your liking and then go on with your life playing whatever you were playing before as normal. Shouldn't be that hard.
I didn't suggest anything. I pointed out that companies that have literally invested tens of millions of dollars into a project have taken a look at progress/lack of progress, and decided it was better to cut their losses instead of tossing more money into a bad project.
As far as "arbitrary date", see these things are not usually arbitrary. A budget is developed and that budget is based on a timeline and resource expenditure. When you realize you are going to go past that date, a rational thing to do is to sit down and estimate how far you are off from that date and what does that do to your budget. And are technical obstacles going to require a change to scope or maybe even make the game impossible to deliver.
How's that any different from every game company ever! It's like the very nature of game development, some work out some don't, all studios go through that in some way.
How will you budget and base a timeline about something you've never done before? How do you predict technical challenges before attempting the tech part? You ballpark to get the thing going and then adapt as you go. That's it. Just cause some gamers don't like it doesn't mean it's wrong and that companies can avoid it. It's part of the process and having a crowdfunded/open development project means we get to see it.
It's not like people were forced to put money upfront for any project. It must and should be a conscious decision by an adult that understands what crowdfunding games involves.
One may not like or care about the part of actual game development but it is what every game goes through in some form or another.
Of course you need to defend this because by this metric Star Citizen looks like an incompetent joke as well.
It isn't my fault developers are incompetent liars when it comes to time frames regarding their games. Times frames that even after this long they just won't/can't touch. The goal posts have been moved so many times the net is no longer even relevant.
By that logic every big studio is incompetent since they all have projects that take a long time to make.
If it takes a long time it's because it'a vapourware and dev's are incompeteny when it releases early it's a cash grab and dev's are lazy lol
That's why studios thinj only way to deal with the ArmChair Developers is treat them like mushrooms. Ignore them and leave them in the dark. and that's what most dev's do. Unfortunately crowdfunded studios don't have that option so here we are.
Estimates are not set in stone and neither game development is a straight road. The only constant is change. Embrace it and you'll have a much easier time avoiding the trap of thinking you knows better than professionals while sounding like a jaded old fart. Unless that's where your confort zone is nowadays.
The difference of course is that a big company has actual timelines that they need to justify to the people paying their salary. And in some cases, when the incompetence is discovered those teams are removed and or the game is shelved so as not to throw good money after bad money. Even big companies like Blizzard (Titan) make these kinds of decisions.
So what you suggest? That teams abandon games whenever they take more time than initially planned? How's that an improvement instead of letting teams develop their games at their own pace instead of canceling or burning them with crunch to apease some arbitrary date?
Gamers have the easiest part of the deal, support whatever projects of your liking and then go on with your life playing whatever you were playing before as normal. Shouldn't be that hard.
I didn't suggest anything. I pointed out that companies that have literally invested tens of millions of dollars into a project have taken a look at progress/lack of progress, and decided it was better to cut their losses instead of tossing more money into a bad project.
As far as "arbitrary date", see these things are not usually arbitrary. A budget is developed and that budget is based on a timeline and resource expenditure. When you realize you are going to go past that date, a rational thing to do is to sit down and estimate how far you are off from that date and what does that do to your budget. And are technical obstacles going to require a change to scope or maybe even make the game impossible to deliver.
How's that any different from every game company ever! It's like the very nature of game development, some work out some don't, all studios go through that in some way.
How will you budget and base a timeline about something you've never done before? How do you predict technical challenges before attempting the tech part? You ballpark to get the thing going and then adapt as you go. That's it. Just cause some gamers don't like it doesn't mean it's wrong and that companies can avoid it. It's part of the process and having a crowdfunded/open development project means we get to see it.
You may not like or care about the part of actual game development but it is what every game goes through in some form or another.
Whats the difference? Some companies dont align with peoples standards. I find SC incredibly shady and wont even look at anything they do, till they change many of their business practices'. On the other hand you dont and many of the people supporting that game. All the power too you for playing that game but many are out right angered by how the carry themselves.
Pantheon Devs put out some lame excuse why they still havent released their game and Fanboys come here and parrot the info trying to defend.
.
I know this is very hard for you but saying what happened, which none of it is good, is not being a fanboy.
But you know soooo much, why don't you enlighten us. You being on the inside and so knowing. Please tell us why the game hasn't launched since lack of knowledge and what seems like general incompetence isn't really enough and can't possibly be true.
general incompetence IS THE reason.
You could say a year or even 2 delay might have been Covid fine (although they are work from home so....), founder dying fine delay.
There is a point however where this team should have known they could not meet expectations. But they keep coming out with more BS.
Every year they delay another year. Drip drip drip with the problems. LOL these guys cant give a truthful projection ever OR they dont want too. Meanwhile the progress seems to actually be going backwards.
I dont know if this game was intended to be a scam at the start or not, but certainly at this point they have been misleading us for many years.
Would telling the truth and giving an honest assessment help them? I dont know, but its not really moral to continue lying about the state of things. Lying about the state of things probably will give you more investment, see Elizabeth Holmes and Bernie Madoff, but doesnt mean its the right thing to do.
The reason they cant get big investment is probably any reputable company wouldnt touch this mess. Obviously they know more than the average backer and realized this was a bad investment. All the BS excuses just confirm that major investors made a wise choice.
I'm not sure what honest assessment you want? They basically have been saying they made mistakes but work is still continuing.
It's more than clear they've made mistakes and have run through personnel and it's clear that work is being done. Having said that, it's seemingly at a snail's pace.
It's my guess that this is not their main gig and they work on it as a side job. I could be wrong about that.
I mean, what's the lie? I would say that it doesn't behoove them to give detailed accounts for all the issues because that would definitely sink their ship unless they really are farther along than it seems.
"If" they were then it might behoove them to give an account of where they are, actual videos of completed areas, and what needs to be done.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Of course you need to defend this because by this metric Star Citizen looks like an incompetent joke as well.
It isn't my fault developers are incompetent liars when it comes to time frames regarding their games. Times frames that even after this long they just won't/can't touch. The goal posts have been moved so many times the net is no longer even relevant.
By that logic every big studio is incompetent since they all have projects that take a long time to make.
If it takes a long time it's because it'a vapourware and dev's are incompeteny when it releases early it's a cash grab and dev's are lazy lol
That's why studios thinj only way to deal with the ArmChair Developers is treat them like mushrooms. Ignore them and leave them in the dark. and that's what most dev's do. Unfortunately crowdfunded studios don't have that option so here we are.
Estimates are not set in stone and neither game development is a straight road. The only constant is change. Embrace it and you'll have a much easier time avoiding the trap of thinking you knows better than professionals while sounding like a jaded old fart. Unless that's where your confort zone is nowadays.
The difference of course is that a big company has actual timelines that they need to justify to the people paying their salary. And in some cases, when the incompetence is discovered those teams are removed and or the game is shelved so as not to throw good money after bad money. Even big companies like Blizzard (Titan) make these kinds of decisions.
So what you suggest? That teams abandon games whenever they take more time than initially planned? How's that an improvement instead of letting teams develop their games at their own pace instead of canceling or burning them with crunch to apease some arbitrary date?
Gamers have the easiest part of the deal, support whatever projects of your liking and then go on with your life playing whatever you were playing before as normal. Shouldn't be that hard.
I didn't suggest anything. I pointed out that companies that have literally invested tens of millions of dollars into a project have taken a look at progress/lack of progress, and decided it was better to cut their losses instead of tossing more money into a bad project.
As far as "arbitrary date", see these things are not usually arbitrary. A budget is developed and that budget is based on a timeline and resource expenditure. When you realize you are going to go past that date, a rational thing to do is to sit down and estimate how far you are off from that date and what does that do to your budget. And are technical obstacles going to require a change to scope or maybe even make the game impossible to deliver.
How's that any different from every game company ever! It's like the very nature of game development, some work out some don't, all studios go through that in some way.
How will you budget and base a timeline about something you've never done before? How do you predict technical challenges before attempting the tech part? You ballpark to get the thing going and then adapt as you go. That's it. Just cause some gamers don't like it doesn't mean it's wrong and that companies can avoid it. It's part of the process and having a crowdfunded/open development project means we get to see it.
It's not like people were forced to put money upfront for any project. It must and should be a conscious decision by an adult that understands what crowdfunding games involves.
One may not like or care about the part of actual game development but it is what every game goes through in some form or another.
We go back to your quote above that started this discussion: By that logic every big studio is incompetent since they all have projects that take a long time to make.
To which I responded and pointed out that big studios regularly evaluate to see if the project's incompetence should result in changes to the project team, scope or even it's existance.
This is also why money usually isn't just tossed into a project all at once. There are gates and milestones where evaluations happen and a determination on whether to add the next batch of funding.
As for budget and timeline, I do not see your questions as those of a serious person. Is it expected that budgets and timelines will change as projects get going? Sure. But if you think that actual VC and Companies do not expect timelines and budgets as well as milestones I just can't take your comments seriously.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Of course you need to defend this because by this metric Star Citizen looks like an incompetent joke as well.
It isn't my fault developers are incompetent liars when it comes to time frames regarding their games. Times frames that even after this long they just won't/can't touch. The goal posts have been moved so many times the net is no longer even relevant.
By that logic every big studio is incompetent since they all have projects that take a long time to make.
If it takes a long time it's because it'a vapourware and dev's are incompeteny when it releases early it's a cash grab and dev's are lazy lol
That's why studios thinj only way to deal with the ArmChair Developers is treat them like mushrooms. Ignore them and leave them in the dark. and that's what most dev's do. Unfortunately crowdfunded studios don't have that option so here we are.
Estimates are not set in stone and neither game development is a straight road. The only constant is change. Embrace it and you'll have a much easier time avoiding the trap of thinking you knows better than professionals while sounding like a jaded old fart. Unless that's where your confort zone is nowadays.
The difference of course is that a big company has actual timelines that they need to justify to the people paying their salary. And in some cases, when the incompetence is discovered those teams are removed and or the game is shelved so as not to throw good money after bad money. Even big companies like Blizzard (Titan) make these kinds of decisions.
So what you suggest? That teams abandon games whenever they take more time than initially planned? How's that an improvement instead of letting teams develop their games at their own pace instead of canceling or burning them with crunch to apease some arbitrary date?
Gamers have the easiest part of the deal, support whatever projects of your liking and then go on with your life playing whatever you were playing before as normal. Shouldn't be that hard.
I didn't suggest anything. I pointed out that companies that have literally invested tens of millions of dollars into a project have taken a look at progress/lack of progress, and decided it was better to cut their losses instead of tossing more money into a bad project.
As far as "arbitrary date", see these things are not usually arbitrary. A budget is developed and that budget is based on a timeline and resource expenditure. When you realize you are going to go past that date, a rational thing to do is to sit down and estimate how far you are off from that date and what does that do to your budget. And are technical obstacles going to require a change to scope or maybe even make the game impossible to deliver.
How's that any different from every game company ever! It's like the very nature of game development, some work out some don't, all studios go through that in some way.
How will you budget and base a timeline about something you've never done before? How do you predict technical challenges before attempting the tech part? You ballpark to get the thing going and then adapt as you go. That's it. Just cause some gamers don't like it doesn't mean it's wrong and that companies can avoid it. It's part of the process and having a crowdfunded/open development project means we get to see it.
You may not like or care about the part of actual game development but it is what every game goes through in some form or another.
Whats the difference? Some companies dont align with peoples standards. I find SC incredibly shady and wont even look at anything they do, till they change many of their business practices'. On the other hand you dont and many of the people supporting that game. All the power too you for playing that game but many are out right angered by how the carry themselves.
How's that relevant? Whatever personal standarts people may have are their own and they can be applied to every company and product in existence. If a product is not for you then it's not for you and that's ok.
Bottom line is for Pantheon, SC or CU as long as they can keep finding someone to provide the funding for development to continue, no reason for them to stop working on the game, right?
They'll either one day surprise some of us and release one day, or close the doors down once the money runs out.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Of course you need to defend this because by this metric Star Citizen looks like an incompetent joke as well.
It isn't my fault developers are incompetent liars when it comes to time frames regarding their games. Times frames that even after this long they just won't/can't touch. The goal posts have been moved so many times the net is no longer even relevant.
By that logic every big studio is incompetent since they all have projects that take a long time to make.
If it takes a long time it's because it'a vapourware and dev's are incompeteny when it releases early it's a cash grab and dev's are lazy lol
That's why studios thinj only way to deal with the ArmChair Developers is treat them like mushrooms. Ignore them and leave them in the dark. and that's what most dev's do. Unfortunately crowdfunded studios don't have that option so here we are.
Estimates are not set in stone and neither game development is a straight road. The only constant is change. Embrace it and you'll have a much easier time avoiding the trap of thinking you knows better than professionals while sounding like a jaded old fart. Unless that's where your confort zone is nowadays.
The difference of course is that a big company has actual timelines that they need to justify to the people paying their salary. And in some cases, when the incompetence is discovered those teams are removed and or the game is shelved so as not to throw good money after bad money. Even big companies like Blizzard (Titan) make these kinds of decisions.
So what you suggest? That teams abandon games whenever they take more time than initially planned? How's that an improvement instead of letting teams develop their games at their own pace instead of canceling or burning them with crunch to apease some arbitrary date?
Gamers have the easiest part of the deal, support whatever projects of your liking and then go on with your life playing whatever you were playing before as normal. Shouldn't be that hard.
I didn't suggest anything. I pointed out that companies that have literally invested tens of millions of dollars into a project have taken a look at progress/lack of progress, and decided it was better to cut their losses instead of tossing more money into a bad project.
As far as "arbitrary date", see these things are not usually arbitrary. A budget is developed and that budget is based on a timeline and resource expenditure. When you realize you are going to go past that date, a rational thing to do is to sit down and estimate how far you are off from that date and what does that do to your budget. And are technical obstacles going to require a change to scope or maybe even make the game impossible to deliver.
How's that any different from every game company ever! It's like the very nature of game development, some work out some don't, all studios go through that in some way.
How will you budget and base a timeline about something you've never done before? How do you predict technical challenges before attempting the tech part? You ballpark to get the thing going and then adapt as you go. That's it. Just cause some gamers don't like it doesn't mean it's wrong and that companies can avoid it. It's part of the process and having a crowdfunded/open development project means we get to see it.
You may not like or care about the part of actual game development but it is what every game goes through in some form or another.
Whats the difference? Some companies dont align with peoples standards. I find SC incredibly shady and wont even look at anything they do, till they change many of their business practices'. On the other hand you dont and many of the people supporting that game. All the power too you for playing that game but many are out right angered by how the carry themselves.
How's that relevant? Whatever personal standarts people may have are their own and they can be applied to every company and product in existence. If a product is not for you then it's not for you and that's ok.
Sorry I was not clear, thats kinda what I meant in what I was saying. What you find fine, others find bad business practices'. You think SC is fine and I dont. I think VR making Patheon messed up but I dont have a problem with how they run their business now, as they have corrected what I think was most of their flaws in my eyes. I dont think anyone should be bashed for the fun they have or the games they support. As long as no one is getting hurt.
Welcome to open game development where every gamer turns into
armchair developer and points how easy it would be if only they did this
and that...
As if there was a formula to simply pump out cool mmorpgs every X years...
My ExCitMeNt iS DyiNg bEcAusE iT hArD tO wAit fOr a ViDeo GaMe
You are right Babs but I am still betting on Pantheon coming out before Star Citizen.
My 5k Hours playing Star Citizen Alpha might contrast a bit with your 5 hours thinking about Pantheon though
Thing is gamers, or some of them, seem to have trouble wanting to play a game when then they're asked to understand what it takes to make said game. Enduring a game's development requires a different skill set than just being stringed along for focused hyped trailers.
I spent a whole 5 hours thinking about Pantheon, where did it go?
Of course you need to defend this because by this metric Star Citizen looks like an incompetent joke as well.
It isn't my fault developers are incompetent liars when it comes to time frames regarding their games. Times frames that even after this long they just won't/can't touch. The goal posts have been moved so many times the net is no longer even relevant.
By that logic every big studio is incompetent since they all have projects that take a long time to make.
If it takes a long time it's because it'a vapourware and dev's are incompeteny when it releases early it's a cash grab and dev's are lazy lol
That's why studios thinj only way to deal with the ArmChair Developers is treat them like mushrooms. Ignore them and leave them in the dark. and that's what most dev's do. Unfortunately crowdfunded studios don't have that option so here we are.
Estimates are not set in stone and neither game development is a straight road. The only constant is change. Embrace it and you'll have a much easier time avoiding the trap of thinking you knows better than professionals while sounding like a jaded old fart. Unless that's where your confort zone is nowadays.
The difference of course is that a big company has actual timelines that they need to justify to the people paying their salary. And in some cases, when the incompetence is discovered those teams are removed and or the game is shelved so as not to throw good money after bad money. Even big companies like Blizzard (Titan) make these kinds of decisions.
So what you suggest? That teams abandon games whenever they take more time than initially planned? How's that an improvement instead of letting teams develop their games at their own pace instead of canceling or burning them with crunch to apease some arbitrary date?
Gamers have the easiest part of the deal, support whatever projects of your liking and then go on with your life playing whatever you were playing before as normal. Shouldn't be that hard.
I didn't suggest anything. I pointed out that companies that have literally invested tens of millions of dollars into a project have taken a look at progress/lack of progress, and decided it was better to cut their losses instead of tossing more money into a bad project.
As far as "arbitrary date", see these things are not usually arbitrary. A budget is developed and that budget is based on a timeline and resource expenditure. When you realize you are going to go past that date, a rational thing to do is to sit down and estimate how far you are off from that date and what does that do to your budget. And are technical obstacles going to require a change to scope or maybe even make the game impossible to deliver.
So what? Some decide to cut losses others decide to continue developing and we still get great games out of it. if It's part of the process of development, just like delays, changes of scope etc. We get to see it because of the open nature of crowdfunded projects since most games are made in secrecy until the very last stages of development.
With crowdfunded product a lot more things tend to be arbitrary.There's much more guesswork because when you're launching a new game idea to the world you can't realy predict the funding you'll get. Which influences what you can think will be actually possible to develop or how long it will take. You can try to estimate and that's what's done with the information available at the time. Which most of the times wont align with reality since you can't realy plan that far away ahead acurately. You plan, then adapt and move forward towards your goal. All that while having to keep backers (old and new) engaged and supporting your plan.
Of course you need to defend this because by this metric Star Citizen looks like an incompetent joke as well.
It isn't my fault developers are incompetent liars when it comes to time frames regarding their games. Times frames that even after this long they just won't/can't touch. The goal posts have been moved so many times the net is no longer even relevant.
By that logic every big studio is incompetent since they all have projects that take a long time to make.
If it takes a long time it's because it'a vapourware and dev's are incompeteny when it releases early it's a cash grab and dev's are lazy lol
That's why studios thinj only way to deal with the ArmChair Developers is treat them like mushrooms. Ignore them and leave them in the dark. and that's what most dev's do. Unfortunately crowdfunded studios don't have that option so here we are.
Estimates are not set in stone and neither game development is a straight road. The only constant is change. Embrace it and you'll have a much easier time avoiding the trap of thinking you knows better than professionals while sounding like a jaded old fart. Unless that's where your confort zone is nowadays.
The difference of course is that a big company has actual timelines that they need to justify to the people paying their salary. And in some cases, when the incompetence is discovered those teams are removed and or the game is shelved so as not to throw good money after bad money. Even big companies like Blizzard (Titan) make these kinds of decisions.
So what you suggest? That teams abandon games whenever they take more time than initially planned? How's that an improvement instead of letting teams develop their games at their own pace instead of canceling or burning them with crunch to apease some arbitrary date?
Gamers have the easiest part of the deal, support whatever projects of your liking and then go on with your life playing whatever you were playing before as normal. Shouldn't be that hard.
I didn't suggest anything. I pointed out that companies that have literally invested tens of millions of dollars into a project have taken a look at progress/lack of progress, and decided it was better to cut their losses instead of tossing more money into a bad project.
As far as "arbitrary date", see these things are not usually arbitrary. A budget is developed and that budget is based on a timeline and resource expenditure. When you realize you are going to go past that date, a rational thing to do is to sit down and estimate how far you are off from that date and what does that do to your budget. And are technical obstacles going to require a change to scope or maybe even make the game impossible to deliver.
How's that any different from every game company ever! It's like the very nature of game development, some work out some don't, all studios go through that in some way.
How will you budget and base a timeline about something you've never done before? How do you predict technical challenges before attempting the tech part? You ballpark to get the thing going and then adapt as you go. That's it. Just cause some gamers don't like it doesn't mean it's wrong and that companies can avoid it. It's part of the process and having a crowdfunded/open development project means we get to see it.
You may not like or care about the part of actual game development but it is what every game goes through in some form or another.
Whats the difference? Some companies dont align with peoples standards. I find SC incredibly shady and wont even look at anything they do, till they change many of their business practices'. On the other hand you dont and many of the people supporting that game. All the power too you for playing that game but many are out right angered by how the carry themselves.
How's that relevant? Whatever personal standarts people may have are their own and they can be applied to every company and product in existence. If a product is not for you then it's not for you and that's ok.
Sorry I was not clear, thats kinda what I meant in what I was saying. What you find fine, others find bad business practices'. You think SC is fine and I dont. I think VR making Patheon messed up but I dont have a problem with how they run their business now, as they have corrected what I think was most of their flaws in my eyes. I dont think anyone should be bashed for the fun they have or the games they support. As long as no one is getting hurt.
Of course you need to defend this because by this metric Star Citizen looks like an incompetent joke as well.
It isn't my fault developers are incompetent liars when it comes to time frames regarding their games. Times frames that even after this long they just won't/can't touch. The goal posts have been moved so many times the net is no longer even relevant.
By that logic every big studio is incompetent since they all have projects that take a long time to make.
If it takes a long time it's because it'a vapourware and dev's are incompeteny when it releases early it's a cash grab and dev's are lazy lol
That's why studios thinj only way to deal with the ArmChair Developers is treat them like mushrooms. Ignore them and leave them in the dark. and that's what most dev's do. Unfortunately crowdfunded studios don't have that option so here we are.
Estimates are not set in stone and neither game development is a straight road. The only constant is change. Embrace it and you'll have a much easier time avoiding the trap of thinking you knows better than professionals while sounding like a jaded old fart. Unless that's where your confort zone is nowadays.
The difference of course is that a big company has actual timelines that they need to justify to the people paying their salary. And in some cases, when the incompetence is discovered those teams are removed and or the game is shelved so as not to throw good money after bad money. Even big companies like Blizzard (Titan) make these kinds of decisions.
So what you suggest? That teams abandon games whenever they take more time than initially planned? How's that an improvement instead of letting teams develop their games at their own pace instead of canceling or burning them with crunch to apease some arbitrary date?
Gamers have the easiest part of the deal, support whatever projects of your liking and then go on with your life playing whatever you were playing before as normal. Shouldn't be that hard.
I didn't suggest anything. I pointed out that companies that have literally invested tens of millions of dollars into a project have taken a look at progress/lack of progress, and decided it was better to cut their losses instead of tossing more money into a bad project.
As far as "arbitrary date", see these things are not usually arbitrary. A budget is developed and that budget is based on a timeline and resource expenditure. When you realize you are going to go past that date, a rational thing to do is to sit down and estimate how far you are off from that date and what does that do to your budget. And are technical obstacles going to require a change to scope or maybe even make the game impossible to deliver.
So what? Some decide to cut losses others decide to continue developing and we still get great games out of it. if It's part of the process of development, just like delays, changes of scope etc. We get to see it because of the open nature of crowdfunded projects since most games are made in secrecy until the very last stages of development.
So a Crowdfunded project will never "decide to cut losses" because the losses are coming from other people. I thought that was self-evident but I guess not.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Of course you need to defend this because by this metric Star Citizen looks like an incompetent joke as well.
It isn't my fault developers are incompetent liars when it comes to time frames regarding their games. Times frames that even after this long they just won't/can't touch. The goal posts have been moved so many times the net is no longer even relevant.
By that logic every big studio is incompetent since they all have projects that take a long time to make.
If it takes a long time it's because it'a vapourware and dev's are incompeteny when it releases early it's a cash grab and dev's are lazy lol
That's why studios thinj only way to deal with the ArmChair Developers is treat them like mushrooms. Ignore them and leave them in the dark. and that's what most dev's do. Unfortunately crowdfunded studios don't have that option so here we are.
Estimates are not set in stone and neither game development is a straight road. The only constant is change. Embrace it and you'll have a much easier time avoiding the trap of thinking you knows better than professionals while sounding like a jaded old fart. Unless that's where your confort zone is nowadays.
The difference of course is that a big company has actual timelines that they need to justify to the people paying their salary. And in some cases, when the incompetence is discovered those teams are removed and or the game is shelved so as not to throw good money after bad money. Even big companies like Blizzard (Titan) make these kinds of decisions.
So what you suggest? That teams abandon games whenever they take more time than initially planned? How's that an improvement instead of letting teams develop their games at their own pace instead of canceling or burning them with crunch to apease some arbitrary date?
Gamers have the easiest part of the deal, support whatever projects of your liking and then go on with your life playing whatever you were playing before as normal. Shouldn't be that hard.
I didn't suggest anything. I pointed out that companies that have literally invested tens of millions of dollars into a project have taken a look at progress/lack of progress, and decided it was better to cut their losses instead of tossing more money into a bad project.
As far as "arbitrary date", see these things are not usually arbitrary. A budget is developed and that budget is based on a timeline and resource expenditure. When you realize you are going to go past that date, a rational thing to do is to sit down and estimate how far you are off from that date and what does that do to your budget. And are technical obstacles going to require a change to scope or maybe even make the game impossible to deliver.
So what? Some decide to cut losses others decide to continue developing and we still get great games out of it. if It's part of the process of development, just like delays, changes of scope etc. We get to see it because of the open nature of crowdfunded projects since most games are made in secrecy until the very last stages of development.
So a Crowdfunded project will never "decide to cut losses" because the losses are coming from other people. I thought that was self-evident but I guess not.
If you cancel a game everybody loses. With crowdfunded projects most of the time it's creators have already put a lot money upfront to even launch the crowdfunding campaign.
With that said there's not a set time frame a developer can work on a game or a gamer can back a project.
If they can do it they will do it and if it works for them it works for them. And nobody outside of that dynamic gets to decide when it's over.
TLDR: Just because some gamers have a hard time waiting for games or understanding what they take to make doesn't mean dev's are incompetent or games have to be canceled.
Of course you need to defend this because by this metric Star Citizen looks like an incompetent joke as well.
It isn't my fault developers are incompetent liars when it comes to time frames regarding their games. Times frames that even after this long they just won't/can't touch. The goal posts have been moved so many times the net is no longer even relevant.
By that logic every big studio is incompetent since they all have projects that take a long time to make.
If it takes a long time it's because it'a vapourware and dev's are incompeteny when it releases early it's a cash grab and dev's are lazy lol
That's why studios thinj only way to deal with the ArmChair Developers is treat them like mushrooms. Ignore them and leave them in the dark. and that's what most dev's do. Unfortunately crowdfunded studios don't have that option so here we are.
Estimates are not set in stone and neither game development is a straight road. The only constant is change. Embrace it and you'll have a much easier time avoiding the trap of thinking you knows better than professionals while sounding like a jaded old fart. Unless that's where your confort zone is nowadays.
The difference of course is that a big company has actual timelines that they need to justify to the people paying their salary. And in some cases, when the incompetence is discovered those teams are removed and or the game is shelved so as not to throw good money after bad money. Even big companies like Blizzard (Titan) make these kinds of decisions.
So what you suggest? That teams abandon games whenever they take more time than initially planned? How's that an improvement instead of letting teams develop their games at their own pace instead of canceling or burning them with crunch to apease some arbitrary date?
Gamers have the easiest part of the deal, support whatever projects of your liking and then go on with your life playing whatever you were playing before as normal. Shouldn't be that hard.
I didn't suggest anything. I pointed out that companies that have literally invested tens of millions of dollars into a project have taken a look at progress/lack of progress, and decided it was better to cut their losses instead of tossing more money into a bad project.
As far as "arbitrary date", see these things are not usually arbitrary. A budget is developed and that budget is based on a timeline and resource expenditure. When you realize you are going to go past that date, a rational thing to do is to sit down and estimate how far you are off from that date and what does that do to your budget. And are technical obstacles going to require a change to scope or maybe even make the game impossible to deliver.
So what? Some decide to cut losses others decide to continue developing and we still get great games out of it. if It's part of the process of development, just like delays, changes of scope etc. We get to see it because of the open nature of crowdfunded projects since most games are made in secrecy until the very last stages of development.
So a Crowdfunded project will never "decide to cut losses" because the losses are coming from other people. I thought that was self-evident but I guess not.
If you cancel a game everybody loses. With crowdfunded projects most of the time it's creators have already put a lot money upfront to even launch the crowdfunding campaign.
With that said there's not a set time frame a developer can work on a game or a gamer can back a project.
If they can do it they will do it and if it works for them it works for them. And nobody outside of that dynamic gets to decide when it's over.
TLDR: Just because some gamers have a hard time waiting for games or understanding what they take to make doesn't mean dev's are incompetent or games have to be canceled.
You just talk in circles. Its not gamers who cancel games in development. It's companies that look at budget, timeline, progress and future and decide not to burn good money on top of what is already spent.
It's called cutting your loses.
And a Crowdfunding game will never do that on it's own because the loses are not theirs.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Of course you need to defend this because by this metric Star Citizen looks like an incompetent joke as well.
It isn't my fault developers are incompetent liars when it comes to time frames regarding their games. Times frames that even after this long they just won't/can't touch. The goal posts have been moved so many times the net is no longer even relevant.
By that logic every big studio is incompetent since they all have projects that take a long time to make.
If it takes a long time it's because it'a vapourware and dev's are incompeteny when it releases early it's a cash grab and dev's are lazy lol
That's why studios thinj only way to deal with the ArmChair Developers is treat them like mushrooms. Ignore them and leave them in the dark. and that's what most dev's do. Unfortunately crowdfunded studios don't have that option so here we are.
Estimates are not set in stone and neither game development is a straight road. The only constant is change. Embrace it and you'll have a much easier time avoiding the trap of thinking you knows better than professionals while sounding like a jaded old fart. Unless that's where your confort zone is nowadays.
The difference of course is that a big company has actual timelines that they need to justify to the people paying their salary. And in some cases, when the incompetence is discovered those teams are removed and or the game is shelved so as not to throw good money after bad money. Even big companies like Blizzard (Titan) make these kinds of decisions.
So what you suggest? That teams abandon games whenever they take more time than initially planned? How's that an improvement instead of letting teams develop their games at their own pace instead of canceling or burning them with crunch to apease some arbitrary date?
Gamers have the easiest part of the deal, support whatever projects of your liking and then go on with your life playing whatever you were playing before as normal. Shouldn't be that hard.
I didn't suggest anything. I pointed out that companies that have literally invested tens of millions of dollars into a project have taken a look at progress/lack of progress, and decided it was better to cut their losses instead of tossing more money into a bad project.
As far as "arbitrary date", see these things are not usually arbitrary. A budget is developed and that budget is based on a timeline and resource expenditure. When you realize you are going to go past that date, a rational thing to do is to sit down and estimate how far you are off from that date and what does that do to your budget. And are technical obstacles going to require a change to scope or maybe even make the game impossible to deliver.
So what? Some decide to cut losses others decide to continue developing and we still get great games out of it. if It's part of the process of development, just like delays, changes of scope etc. We get to see it because of the open nature of crowdfunded projects since most games are made in secrecy until the very last stages of development.
So a Crowdfunded project will never "decide to cut losses" because the losses are coming from other people. I thought that was self-evident but I guess not.
If you cancel a game everybody loses. With crowdfunded projects most of the time it's creators have already put a lot money upfront to even launch the crowdfunding campaign.
With that said there's not a set time frame a developer can work on a game or a gamer can back a project.
If they can do it they will do it and if it works for them it works for them. And nobody outside of that dynamic gets to decide when it's over.
TLDR: Just because some gamers have a hard time waiting for games or understanding what they take to make doesn't mean dev's are incompetent or games have to be canceled.
The real people who didn't understand what it took to make these games are the developers themselves who set timelines they missed by YEARS. They are so utterly incompetent that they avoid even hinting at a release date over a decade into development.
There is no cutting loses because they don't lose anything. They just go until the funds stop and get paid the whole way, regardless of if the game releases or not.
Lying to get funding for a game they knew they could never make in the timeframe they were putting forward.
It's both incompetence and lying. With a dash of zero responsibility.
You're just trying to pass the buck onto the gamers when the entire reason there were expectations for time frames was all on the developers. They set them and missed them, in some cases multiple times, until they stopped altogether. That's all on the devs.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Leave McQuaid's game alone. They will release it. Sure it may be vanguard all over again but they will release it
I would take Vanguard all over again at this point.
As much as I liked some things in Vanguard there's a reason it got shut down and everyone was fired in the parking lot and it wasn't because it was a huge success making tons of money.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Leave McQuaid's game alone. They will release it. Sure it may be vanguard all over again but they will release it
I would take Vanguard all over again at this point.
As much as I liked some things in Vanguard there's a reason it got shut down and everyone was fired in the parking lot and it wasn't because it was a huge success making tons of money.
I agree, but there was also competition. We are in a pretty dry spell. People are thirsty.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Of course you need to defend this because by this metric Star Citizen looks like an incompetent joke as well.
It isn't my fault developers are incompetent liars when it comes to time frames regarding their games. Times frames that even after this long they just won't/can't touch. The goal posts have been moved so many times the net is no longer even relevant.
By that logic every big studio is incompetent since they all have projects that take a long time to make.
If it takes a long time it's because it'a vapourware and dev's are incompeteny when it releases early it's a cash grab and dev's are lazy lol
That's why studios thinj only way to deal with the ArmChair Developers is treat them like mushrooms. Ignore them and leave them in the dark. and that's what most dev's do. Unfortunately crowdfunded studios don't have that option so here we are.
Estimates are not set in stone and neither game development is a straight road. The only constant is change. Embrace it and you'll have a much easier time avoiding the trap of thinking you knows better than professionals while sounding like a jaded old fart. Unless that's where your confort zone is nowadays.
The difference of course is that a big company has actual timelines that they need to justify to the people paying their salary. And in some cases, when the incompetence is discovered those teams are removed and or the game is shelved so as not to throw good money after bad money. Even big companies like Blizzard (Titan) make these kinds of decisions.
So what you suggest? That teams abandon games whenever they take more time than initially planned? How's that an improvement instead of letting teams develop their games at their own pace instead of canceling or burning them with crunch to apease some arbitrary date?
Gamers have the easiest part of the deal, support whatever projects of your liking and then go on with your life playing whatever you were playing before as normal. Shouldn't be that hard.
I didn't suggest anything. I pointed out that companies that have literally invested tens of millions of dollars into a project have taken a look at progress/lack of progress, and decided it was better to cut their losses instead of tossing more money into a bad project.
As far as "arbitrary date", see these things are not usually arbitrary. A budget is developed and that budget is based on a timeline and resource expenditure. When you realize you are going to go past that date, a rational thing to do is to sit down and estimate how far you are off from that date and what does that do to your budget. And are technical obstacles going to require a change to scope or maybe even make the game impossible to deliver.
So what? Some decide to cut losses others decide to continue developing and we still get great games out of it. if It's part of the process of development, just like delays, changes of scope etc. We get to see it because of the open nature of crowdfunded projects since most games are made in secrecy until the very last stages of development.
So a Crowdfunded project will never "decide to cut losses" because the losses are coming from other people. I thought that was self-evident but I guess not.
If you cancel a game everybody loses. With crowdfunded projects most of the time it's creators have already put a lot money upfront to even launch the crowdfunding campaign.
With that said there's not a set time frame a developer can work on a game or a gamer can back a project.
If they can do it they will do it and if it works for them it works for them. And nobody outside of that dynamic gets to decide when it's over.
TLDR: Just because some gamers have a hard time waiting for games or understanding what they take to make doesn't mean dev's are incompetent or games have to be canceled.
The real people who didn't understand what it took to make these games are the developers themselves who set timelines they missed by YEARS. They are so utterly incompetent that they avoid even hinting at a release date over a decade into development.
There is no cutting loses because they don't lose anything. They just go until the funds stop and get paid the whole way, regardless of if the game releases or not.
Lying to get funding for a game they knew they could never make in the timeframe they were putting forward.
It's both incompetence and lying. With a dash of zero responsibility.
You're just trying to pass the buck onto the gamers when the entire reason there were expectations for time frames was all on the developers. They set them and missed them, in some cases multiple times, until they stopped altogether. That's all on the devs.
Oh I see, but why are you talking about Ashes of Creation in a Pantheon Thread?
I'm not sure what honest assessment you want? They basically have been saying they made mistakes but work is still continuing.
What assessment do I want? I want them to stop lying! how hard is that to understand. Give us a true picture of release and let the cards fall where they may. I am sick of them giving a release date then missing it by many years with no release in sight. I am sick of them saying alpha will be released soon or by the end of the year, then changing that year over year.
Your solution is for them to mislead even more by not telling the customer/investor the truth? Why is that good business practice?
If future investors wont except the truth, then the solution is to adapt your plan into something they will accept or shut the project down. The solution should not be to lie even more to con future people into extending the potential life out in hopes you get lucky and find a whale to pay for it. Honestly that practice should be illegal and it would be if it was a larger corporation.
Its not ethical to just keep lying to your base or "misleading" your base.
What is wrong with just telling the truth and making a product that is doable, putting out a true timeline and hitting the target date.
This entire situation is because the team is both unethical and incompetent.
Of course you need to defend this because by this metric Star Citizen looks like an incompetent joke as well.
It isn't my fault developers are incompetent liars when it comes to time frames regarding their games. Times frames that even after this long they just won't/can't touch. The goal posts have been moved so many times the net is no longer even relevant.
By that logic every big studio is incompetent since they all have projects that take a long time to make.
If it takes a long time it's because it'a vapourware and dev's are incompeteny when it releases early it's a cash grab and dev's are lazy lol
That's why studios thinj only way to deal with the ArmChair Developers is treat them like mushrooms. Ignore them and leave them in the dark. and that's what most dev's do. Unfortunately crowdfunded studios don't have that option so here we are.
Estimates are not set in stone and neither game development is a straight road. The only constant is change. Embrace it and you'll have a much easier time avoiding the trap of thinking you knows better than professionals while sounding like a jaded old fart. Unless that's where your confort zone is nowadays.
The difference of course is that a big company has actual timelines that they need to justify to the people paying their salary. And in some cases, when the incompetence is discovered those teams are removed and or the game is shelved so as not to throw good money after bad money. Even big companies like Blizzard (Titan) make these kinds of decisions.
So what you suggest? That teams abandon games whenever they take more time than initially planned? How's that an improvement instead of letting teams develop their games at their own pace instead of canceling or burning them with crunch to apease some arbitrary date?
Gamers have the easiest part of the deal, support whatever projects of your liking and then go on with your life playing whatever you were playing before as normal. Shouldn't be that hard.
I didn't suggest anything. I pointed out that companies that have literally invested tens of millions of dollars into a project have taken a look at progress/lack of progress, and decided it was better to cut their losses instead of tossing more money into a bad project.
As far as "arbitrary date", see these things are not usually arbitrary. A budget is developed and that budget is based on a timeline and resource expenditure. When you realize you are going to go past that date, a rational thing to do is to sit down and estimate how far you are off from that date and what does that do to your budget. And are technical obstacles going to require a change to scope or maybe even make the game impossible to deliver.
So what? Some decide to cut losses others decide to continue developing and we still get great games out of it. if It's part of the process of development, just like delays, changes of scope etc. We get to see it because of the open nature of crowdfunded projects since most games are made in secrecy until the very last stages of development.
So a Crowdfunded project will never "decide to cut losses" because the losses are coming from other people. I thought that was self-evident but I guess not.
If you cancel a game everybody loses. With crowdfunded projects most of the time it's creators have already put a lot money upfront to even launch the crowdfunding campaign.
With that said there's not a set time frame a developer can work on a game or a gamer can back a project.
If they can do it they will do it and if it works for them it works for them. And nobody outside of that dynamic gets to decide when it's over.
TLDR: Just because some gamers have a hard time waiting for games or understanding what they take to make doesn't mean dev's are incompetent or games have to be canceled.
The real people who didn't understand what it took to make these games are the developers themselves who set timelines they missed by YEARS. They are so utterly incompetent that they avoid even hinting at a release date over a decade into development.
There is no cutting loses because they don't lose anything. They just go until the funds stop and get paid the whole way, regardless of if the game releases or not.
Lying to get funding for a game they knew they could never make in the timeframe they were putting forward.
It's both incompetence and lying. With a dash of zero responsibility.
You're just trying to pass the buck onto the gamers when the entire reason there were expectations for time frames was all on the developers. They set them and missed them, in some cases multiple times, until they stopped altogether. That's all on the devs.
Oh I see, but why are you talking about Ashes of Creation in a Pantheon Thread?
What I said easily applies to almost every crowd funded/kickstarted MMO. I'm well aware this is a Pantheon thread and it applies here without fail. I know it's hard to keep them straight and they are pretty interchangeable when it comes to lying, incompetence and missing dates but I never mentioned Ashes of Creation.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
I'm not sure what honest assessment you want? They basically have been saying they made mistakes but work is still continuing.
What assessment do I want? I want them to stop lying! how hard is that to understand. Give us a true picture of release and let the cards fall where they may. I am sick of them giving a release date then missing it by many years with no release in sight. I am sick of them saying alpha will be released soon or by the end of the year, then changing that year over year.
Your solution is for them to mislead even more by not telling the customer/investor the truth? Why is that good business practice?
If future investors wont except the truth, then the solution is to adapt your plan into something they will accept or shut the project down. The solution should not be to lie even more to con future people into extending the potential life out in hopes you get lucky and find a whale to pay for it. Honestly that practice should be illegal and it would be if it was a larger corporation.
Its not ethical to just keep lying to your base or "misleading" your base.
What is wrong with just telling the truth and making a product that is doable, putting out a true timeline and hitting the target date.
This entire situation is because the team is both unethical and incompetent.
Seriously.
I can see why they are not being honest.
Imagine if these companies said, "We are milking this for as long as possible and stringing you along to get paychecks as long as we have funding while doing the bare minimum to make it look like we have made progress." followed by "Enjoy some more concept art because there is no way we are giving an actual release date. lawl".
Then you have people defending them saying the players can't wait or don't know how game development works or whatever other excuses.
As if we don't have the development times and releases for every MMO since UO to look at and compare to.
Maybe they will wheel out the but these new games are doing something that was never done before as if UO and EQ weren't breaking new ground and the pioneers of the genre.
This is from 7 years ago...
This is 1 month ago...
You could repurpose that Star Citizen release date meme for pretty much any of these kickstarter MMO's.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Of course you need to defend this because by this metric Star Citizen looks like an incompetent joke as well.
It isn't my fault developers are incompetent liars when it comes to time frames regarding their games. Times frames that even after this long they just won't/can't touch. The goal posts have been moved so many times the net is no longer even relevant.
By that logic every big studio is incompetent since they all have projects that take a long time to make.
If it takes a long time it's because it'a vapourware and dev's are incompeteny when it releases early it's a cash grab and dev's are lazy lol
That's why studios thinj only way to deal with the ArmChair Developers is treat them like mushrooms. Ignore them and leave them in the dark. and that's what most dev's do. Unfortunately crowdfunded studios don't have that option so here we are.
Estimates are not set in stone and neither game development is a straight road. The only constant is change. Embrace it and you'll have a much easier time avoiding the trap of thinking you knows better than professionals while sounding like a jaded old fart. Unless that's where your confort zone is nowadays.
The difference of course is that a big company has actual timelines that they need to justify to the people paying their salary. And in some cases, when the incompetence is discovered those teams are removed and or the game is shelved so as not to throw good money after bad money. Even big companies like Blizzard (Titan) make these kinds of decisions.
So what you suggest? That teams abandon games whenever they take more time than initially planned? How's that an improvement instead of letting teams develop their games at their own pace instead of canceling or burning them with crunch to apease some arbitrary date?
Gamers have the easiest part of the deal, support whatever projects of your liking and then go on with your life playing whatever you were playing before as normal. Shouldn't be that hard.
I didn't suggest anything. I pointed out that companies that have literally invested tens of millions of dollars into a project have taken a look at progress/lack of progress, and decided it was better to cut their losses instead of tossing more money into a bad project.
As far as "arbitrary date", see these things are not usually arbitrary. A budget is developed and that budget is based on a timeline and resource expenditure. When you realize you are going to go past that date, a rational thing to do is to sit down and estimate how far you are off from that date and what does that do to your budget. And are technical obstacles going to require a change to scope or maybe even make the game impossible to deliver.
So what? Some decide to cut losses others decide to continue developing and we still get great games out of it. if It's part of the process of development, just like delays, changes of scope etc. We get to see it because of the open nature of crowdfunded projects since most games are made in secrecy until the very last stages of development.
So a Crowdfunded project will never "decide to cut losses" because the losses are coming from other people. I thought that was self-evident but I guess not.
If you cancel a game everybody loses. With crowdfunded projects most of the time it's creators have already put a lot money upfront to even launch the crowdfunding campaign.
With that said there's not a set time frame a developer can work on a game or a gamer can back a project.
If they can do it they will do it and if it works for them it works for them. And nobody outside of that dynamic gets to decide when it's over.
TLDR: Just because some gamers have a hard time waiting for games or understanding what they take to make doesn't mean dev's are incompetent or games have to be canceled.
The real people who didn't understand what it took to make these games are the developers themselves who set timelines they missed by YEARS. They are so utterly incompetent that they avoid even hinting at a release date over a decade into development.
There is no cutting loses because they don't lose anything. They just go until the funds stop and get paid the whole way, regardless of if the game releases or not.
Lying to get funding for a game they knew they could never make in the timeframe they were putting forward.
It's both incompetence and lying. With a dash of zero responsibility.
You're just trying to pass the buck onto the gamers when the entire reason there were expectations for time frames was all on the developers. They set them and missed them, in some cases multiple times, until they stopped altogether. That's all on the devs.
Oh I see, but why are you talking about Ashes of Creation in a Pantheon Thread?
What I said easily applies to almost every crowd funded/kickstarted MMO. I'm well aware this is a Pantheon thread and it applies here without fail. I know it's hard to keep them straight and they are pretty interchangeable when it comes to lying, incompetence and missing dates but I never mentioned Ashes of Creation.
It's funny when we know why he is defeding this one. Has nothing to do with Pantheon and we all know it.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Let me throw a spanner into the works. To play one of these unfinished games costs $30-$45. What does $45 buy you in terms of entertainment?
A night at the movies. A month or two of streaming service. A few DvD's. One good steak dinner. A bottle of good tequila.
Now take one of these unfinished games, can you get $45 worth of entertainment from them? I'm playing New World which is widely considered a flop. But I'm having fun, just started and have played a few weeks. I've gotten my entertainment value already.
If you can get $45 worth of entertainment value from the game in its current state, is it a scam that they never release a real product?
Let me throw a spanner into the works. To play one of these unfinished games costs $30-$45. What does $45 buy you in terms of entertainment?
A night at the movies. A month or two of streaming service. A few DvD's. One good steak dinner. A bottle of good tequila.
Now take one of these unfinished games, can you get $45 worth of entertainment from them? I'm playing New World which is widely considered a flop. But I'm having fun, just started and have played a few weeks. I've gotten my entertainment value already.
If you can get $45 worth of entertainment value from the game in its current state, is it a scam that they never release a real product?
Yes. If they tell you something untrue in order to get your money.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Comments
How will you budget and base a timeline about something you've never done before? How do you predict technical challenges before attempting the tech part? You ballpark to get the thing going and then adapt as you go. That's it. Just cause some gamers don't like it doesn't mean it's wrong and that companies can avoid it. It's part of the process and having a crowdfunded/open development project means we get to see it.
It's not like people were forced to put money upfront for any project. It must and should be a conscious decision by an adult that understands what crowdfunding games involves.
One may not like or care about the part of actual game development but it is what every game goes through in some form or another.
It's more than clear they've made mistakes and have run through personnel and it's clear that work is being done. Having said that, it's seemingly at a snail's pace.
It's my guess that this is not their main gig and they work on it as a side job. I could be wrong about that.
I mean, what's the lie? I would say that it doesn't behoove them to give detailed accounts for all the issues because that would definitely sink their ship unless they really are farther along than it seems.
"If" they were then it might behoove them to give an account of where they are, actual videos of completed areas, and what needs to be done.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
To which I responded and pointed out that big studios regularly evaluate to see if the project's incompetence should result in changes to the project team, scope or even it's existance.
This is also why money usually isn't just tossed into a project all at once. There are gates and milestones where evaluations happen and a determination on whether to add the next batch of funding.
As for budget and timeline, I do not see your questions as those of a serious person. Is it expected that budgets and timelines will change as projects get going? Sure. But if you think that actual VC and Companies do not expect timelines and budgets as well as milestones I just can't take your comments seriously.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
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Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
They'll either one day surprise some of us and release one day, or close the doors down once the money runs out.
Or until the doomsday day scenario is invoked.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
With crowdfunded product a lot more things tend to be arbitrary.There's much more guesswork because when you're launching a new game idea to the world you can't realy predict the funding you'll get. Which influences what you can think will be actually possible to develop or how long it will take. You can try to estimate and that's what's done with the information available at the time. Which most of the times wont align with reality since you can't realy plan that far away ahead acurately. You plan, then adapt and move forward towards your goal. All that while having to keep backers (old and new) engaged and supporting your plan.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
With that said there's not a set time frame a developer can work on a game or a gamer can back a project.
If they can do it they will do it and if it works for them it works for them. And nobody outside of that dynamic gets to decide when it's over.
TLDR: Just because some gamers have a hard time waiting for games or understanding what they take to make doesn't mean dev's are incompetent or games have to be canceled.
It's called cutting your loses.
And a Crowdfunding game will never do that on it's own because the loses are not theirs.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
There is no cutting loses because they don't lose anything. They just go until the funds stop and get paid the whole way, regardless of if the game releases or not.
Lying to get funding for a game they knew they could never make in the timeframe they were putting forward.
It's both incompetence and lying. With a dash of zero responsibility.
You're just trying to pass the buck onto the gamers when the entire reason there were expectations for time frames was all on the developers. They set them and missed them, in some cases multiple times, until they stopped altogether. That's all on the devs.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Oh I see, but why are you talking about Ashes of Creation in a Pantheon Thread?
Your solution is for them to mislead even more by not telling the customer/investor the truth? Why is that good business practice?
If future investors wont except the truth, then the solution is to adapt your plan into something they will accept or shut the project down. The solution should not be to lie even more to con future people into extending the potential life out in hopes you get lucky and find a whale to pay for it. Honestly that practice should be illegal and it would be if it was a larger corporation.
Its not ethical to just keep lying to your base or "misleading" your base.
What is wrong with just telling the truth and making a product that is doable, putting out a true timeline and hitting the target date.
This entire situation is because the team is both unethical and incompetent.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/I can see why they are not being honest.
Imagine if these companies said, "We are milking this for as long as possible and stringing you along to get paychecks as long as we have funding while doing the bare minimum to make it look like we have made progress." followed by "Enjoy some more concept art because there is no way we are giving an actual release date. lawl".
Then you have people defending them saying the players can't wait or don't know how game development works or whatever other excuses.
As if we don't have the development times and releases for every MMO since UO to look at and compare to.
Maybe they will wheel out the but these new games are doing something that was never done before as if UO and EQ weren't breaking new ground and the pioneers of the genre.
This is from 7 years ago...
This is 1 month ago...
You could repurpose that Star Citizen release date meme for pretty much any of these kickstarter MMO's.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
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2024: 47 years on the Net.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018