Will ADD-ONS kill this game?

Wighty

I have participated in the ESO beta and really enjoy the immersion aspect of the game where numbers are not flashing in front of you, minimalist UI, and the overall feeling of being a part of your environment.

 

I also noticed a part of the UI that listed ADD ON's... I only hope this will not be the same nightmare, that it has created in other games...

 

I am not talking about addon's that allow you to change the aesthetic of your UI, I am taling mainly about the addon's that affect the way the game is played, and how you as a player are perceived.

 

Addon's like DPS meters, Deadly boss mobs, threat meters... These mods have changed the way a particular MMO is played to the point it disrupts the development cycles because having these items becomes a necessity.

 

I say this because now your reaction time is tied to when a particular mod tells you in flashing letters "Get out of the poo" or "Incoming explosion attack take cover" all the while you have your team yelling for more DPS/heals/threat because your meters are running low because you took a split second more time to take cover. 

 

Before there were addons as such, you had some margin for error because you had to "figure it out"... situations were a bit more forgiving because the developers weren't challenged with having to create encounters where some mod is telling the player exactly what and how to do something. Encounters today feel like a country line dance where everyone moves in unison because they are told exactly how and where to move.

 

It is almost a guarantee that Wildstar will follow the above "must have this addon to play this game" format, I just hope ESO limits what is possible with addons so the game doesn't become just another twtich style combat dance dance revolution simulator.

Lord.Bachus

I hope they step away from mods that do anthing else then revisualising the UI 

Grakulen

Originally posted by Wighty

 

Before there were addons as such, you had some margin for error because you had to "figure it out"... situations were a bit more forgiving because the developers weren't challenged with having to create encounters where some mod is telling the player exactly what and how to do something. Encounters today feel like a country line dance where everyone moves in unison because they are told exactly how and where to move.

 

It is almost a guarantee that Wildstar will follow the above "must have this addon to play this game" format, I just hope ESO limits what is possible with addons so the game doesn't become just another twtich style combat dance dance revolution simulator.

Last night I dropped in on a WildStar steam where a person was using enough mods that the game was indistinguishable from WoW. (not intended as a knock on WS).

ESO already has scrolling combat text and modified health bars. I don't know about threat meters but if you can set up SCT you can probably make a DPS meter.

SpottyGekko

I very much doubt that add-ons will "kill this game", lol

 

Find some people that don't use add-ons to regulate their play, and group with them.

I'll use add-ons for sure, but not ones that tell me when to do what. There's more to add-ons than raid choreography and DPS meters.

Zadawn

Yes.

arieste

Originally posted by Wighty

I say this because now your reaction time is tied to when a particular mod tells you in flashing letters "Get out of the poo" or "Incoming explosion attack take cover" all the while you have your team yelling for more DPS/heals/threat because your meters are running low because you took a split second more time to take cover.

You only need a mod to tell you to "Get out of the poo" if your game is so poorly designed that it properly communicate this to the player via in-game means.      Design the game better from the start so mods aren't needed to play it well.     That is - make your poo clearly visible, make the boss's animation and dialogue clearly visible/audible when he is spawning the poo... and THOSE things will be better than needing some mod.

 

Same thing for DPS, if you're going to design a boss encounter that requires X dps to defeat, then include an in-game way for people to tell what dps they are doing.   If you don't, then it encourages people to see this info elsewhere.

 

It is HARD to make challenging PvE content.  So things like movement, positioning and coordination of damage and heals will remain a big part of it.   But if you design your game to have these elements, you better provide in-game means for people to interact with them.     

 

An example of this is telegraphs in ESO - you can easily see which area to avoid, so there is no need for any kind of third part program to tell you "do not stand in front of mob", because it is both quicker and easier for players to just pay attention to what's IN GAME.    And even if someone DOES have some kind of add-on that gives them a voice trigger, it's not REQUIRED to play the game, because you can just react based on mob's telegraph.

 

It's all about game design.    Sadly, ESO seems to be content with not providing much in-game stuff and letting people make their own.   So yeah.. it is what it is.  Given how little in-game info is provided, at this point i think it's the other way around where NOT having mods would kill the game.

Scyris

I think the game not being modable is what will hurt the game. Skyrim for example is a pretty bad game as a base (IMO I didn't really like the base game), but with mods it can be made so much better. t3nd0s skyrim redone is a great overhaul mod, changes almost every thing you can think of. Like it removes the enchant stacking to make weapons with thousands of damage that breaks the game. Makes combat alot more intersting/involved, fixes mages so they aren't just good as a stagger tool, they can also own face later on. pretty much balances everything really well.

I'll be honest thou, after playing the wildstar beta, I am kinda more intersted in ESO mostly because wildstar is bascally a tera clone with much clunkier combat and the terrible character designs in wildstar kinda turn me off from the game as well. Where as ESO is actually trying something somewhat diffrent in a mmorpg. Last first person mmo I played was Hellgate London, its bascally a 1st/3rd person diablo clone.

Though in ESO I don't like how certan races are locked to certan factions, though its not such a major issue now since they threw 1 visually appealing race into each faction.

All in all I might wait till after the 1st month or 2 before I buy either, just to see how the population is. I am worried ESO will be another SWTOR: good box sales, but nearly a complete ghost town after the 1st or 2nd month.

Wighty

Originally posted by SpottyGekko

I very much doubt that add-ons will "kill this game", lol

 

Find some people that don't use add-ons to regulate their play, and group with them.

I'll use add-ons for sure, but not ones that tell me when to do what. There's more to add-ons than raid choreography and DPS meters.

Don;t misunderstand me, I like addons, I just hate when a game forces you to use a particular addon in order to participate. Furthermore when the developers now have to create content around these mods, because the particular mod makes the content less challenging.

 

Add ons that improve visuals, social experience, perhaps some UI tweaks are great... You can tailor the look and feel of the game to your liking.

Ghern

Originally posted by Grakulen

Originally posted by Wighty

 

Before there were addons as such, you had some margin for error because you had to "figure it out"... situations were a bit more forgiving because the developers weren't challenged with having to create encounters where some mod is telling the player exactly what and how to do something. Encounters today feel like a country line dance where everyone moves in unison because they are told exactly how and where to move.

 

It is almost a guarantee that Wildstar will follow the above "must have this addon to play this game" format, I just hope ESO limits what is possible with addons so the game doesn't become just another twtich style combat dance dance revolution simulator.

Last night I dropped in on a WildStar steam where a person was using enough mods that the game was indistinguishable from WoW. (not intended as a knock on WS).

 

This really disappoints me.

Mpfive

The game needs an addon where you can see the DOT on your target and debuff on you, feels weird not being able to monitor it:)

Wighty

Originally posted by arieste

 It's all about game design.    Sadly, ESO seems to be content with not providing much in-game stuff and letting people make their own.   So yeah.. it is what it is.  Given how little in-game info is provided, at this point i think it's the other way around where NOT having mods would kill the game.

ESO was designed specifically to not have all the usual flashing numbers and swamp you with on screen information.

 

Players are now trained that you NEED DPS meters, threat meters, and a slew of mechanics mods to be effective and competitive in games. These types of mods seem very unnecessary in ESO because the game was not designed with that style of play from the ground up.

Encounters having artificial barrier mechanics like DPS checks (kill encounter in 5 minutes or he will supernova killing everyone)... Needing DPS meters to tell you that you can or can't defeat the encounter. It's crap like this that kills games and blocks content or forces unnecessary progression.

 

If a more skilled group with lesser gear can kill the same encounter in 30 minutes, than a better geared group with lesser skill in 10 minutes, why should a game prevent you from doing so by creating these artifical barriers...

 

This seems to the the direction of ESO... Where the players can tackle difficult content based on their own skill and not on what gear or stage of progression they are at.

 

Also when you look at the span of numbers in ESO it doesn't seem as vast... other games you can be max level in basic equipment and have say 5000 hps 500 armor and do 500 weapon damage... but in top gear you may have 100k hps have 50k armor and swing a sword that does 5k damage per swing.

 

ESO seems much tighter... I don't think a player in legendary gear will be as exponentially better than the player in uncommon or rare gear, like in the example given above which would hopfully lessen the need for such obtrusive mods.

Ineveraskforthis

Sadly the majority of the mmo players are min max er , they will install thousands and thousands of mods just to give them the slightest advantage.

 

I can totally see people turning ESO into another avatar and numbers game

Ghern

Originally posted by Wighty

Originally posted by arieste

 It's all about game design.    Sadly, ESO seems to be content with not providing much in-game stuff and letting people make their own.   So yeah.. it is what it is.  Given how little in-game info is provided, at this point i think it's the other way around where NOT having mods would kill the game.

ESO was designed specifically to not have all the usual flashing numbers and swamp you with on screen information.

 

Players are now trained that you NEED DPS meters, threat meters, and a slew of mechanics mods to be effective and competitive in games. These types of mods seem very unnecessary in ESO because the game was not designed with that style of play from the ground up.

Encounters having artificial barrier mechanics like DPS checks (kill encounter in 5 minutes or he will supernova killing everyone)... Needing DPS meters to tell you that you can or can't defeat the encounter. It's crap like this that kills games and blocks content or forces unnecessary progression.

 

If a more skilled group with lesser gear can kill the same encounter in 30 minutes, than a better geared group with lesser skill in 10 minutes, why should a game prevent you from doing so by creating these artifical barriers...

 

This seems to the the direction of ESO... Where the players can tackle difficult content based on their own skill and not on what gear or stage of progression they are at.

 

Also when you look at the span of numbers in ESO it doesn't seem as vast... other games you can be max level in basic equipment and have say 5000 hps 500 armor and do 500 weapon damage... but in top gear you may have 100k hps have 50k armor and swing a sword that does 5k damage per swing.

 

ESO seems much tighter... I don't think a player in legendary gear will be as exponentially better than the player in uncommon or rare gear, like in the example given above which would hopfully lessen the need for such obtrusive mods.

I hope you are right. There needs to be a change to the status quo.

One of the worst times in WoW was during Wrath and the gear score mod. It became Looking For Gearscore, not looking for player.

Wighty

Originally posted by Ghern

Originally posted by Grakulen

Originally posted by Wighty

 

Before there were addons as such, you had some margin for error because you had to "figure it out"... situations were a bit more forgiving because the developers weren't challenged with having to create encounters where some mod is telling the player exactly what and how to do something. Encounters today feel like a country line dance where everyone moves in unison because they are told exactly how and where to move.

 

It is almost a guarantee that Wildstar will follow the above "must have this addon to play this game" format, I just hope ESO limits what is possible with addons so the game doesn't become just another twtich style combat dance dance revolution simulator.

Last night I dropped in on a WildStar steam where a person was using enough mods that the game was indistinguishable from WoW. (not intended as a knock on WS).

 

This really disappoints me.

C'mon you don't need to be Scooby Doo to solve this mystery... it's like the team at Carbine stole the WOW playbook and is following the exact same formula... Wildstar is being designed specifically for these obtrusive add on mechanics... Fortunately for them they are at least tackling a lot of this in beta so that if a particular mod is overpowered they can put measures in place where it doesn't function in the same manner as release.

 

This is why ESO (while mildly a themepark in itself) seems to be steering away from these conventions by doing something completely different and fresh by comparison.

Wighty

Originally posted by Ineveraskforthis

Sadly the majority of the mmo players are min max er , they will install thousands and thousands of mods just to give them the slightest advantage.

 

I can totally see people turning ESO into another avatar and numbers game

It just seems that these numbers are less erratic... Something like being max level and having say 1000 hps and being top geared and having 1200 hps... maybe a 20% difference as opposed to the "WOW convention" where it could be hundreds of percent difference. That's where ESO has it's strengths and will also make post release balancing much more manageable...

Ghern

Originally posted by Wighty

Originally posted by Ghern

Originally posted by Grakulen

Originally posted by Wighty

 

Before there were addons as such, you had some margin for error because you had to "figure it out"... situations were a bit more forgiving because the developers weren't challenged with having to create encounters where some mod is telling the player exactly what and how to do something. Encounters today feel like a country line dance where everyone moves in unison because they are told exactly how and where to move.

 

It is almost a guarantee that Wildstar will follow the above "must have this addon to play this game" format, I just hope ESO limits what is possible with addons so the game doesn't become just another twtich style combat dance dance revolution simulator.

Last night I dropped in on a WildStar steam where a person was using enough mods that the game was indistinguishable from WoW. (not intended as a knock on WS).

 

This really disappoints me.

C'mon you don't need to be Scooby Doo to solve this mystery... it's like the team at Carbine stole the WOW playbook and is following the exact same formula... Wildstar is being designed specifically for these obtrusive add on mechanics... Fortunately for them they are at least tackling a lot of this in beta so that if a particular mod is overpowered they can put measures in place where it doesn't function in the same manner as release.

 

This is why ESO (while mildly a themepark in itself) seems to be steering away from these conventions by doing something completely different and fresh by comparison.

I know what Carbine is after. That didn't mean they could not accomplish their goal without a gazillion addons.

That really kills some excitement for me. I have no desire to play a game and manage a ton of addons that almost become necessary. Been there, done that.

Wighty

Originally posted by Ghern

Originally posted by Wighty

Originally posted by Ghern

Originally posted by Grakulen

Originally posted by Wighty

 

Before there were addons as such, you had some margin for error because you had to "figure it out"... situations were a bit more forgiving because the developers weren't challenged with having to create encounters where some mod is telling the player exactly what and how to do something. Encounters today feel like a country line dance where everyone moves in unison because they are told exactly how and where to move.

 

It is almost a guarantee that Wildstar will follow the above "must have this addon to play this game" format, I just hope ESO limits what is possible with addons so the game doesn't become just another twtich style combat dance dance revolution simulator.

Last night I dropped in on a WildStar steam where a person was using enough mods that the game was indistinguishable from WoW. (not intended as a knock on WS).

 

This really disappoints me.

C'mon you don't need to be Scooby Doo to solve this mystery... it's like the team at Carbine stole the WOW playbook and is following the exact same formula... Wildstar is being designed specifically for these obtrusive add on mechanics... Fortunately for them they are at least tackling a lot of this in beta so that if a particular mod is overpowered they can put measures in place where it doesn't function in the same manner as release.

 

This is why ESO (while mildly a themepark in itself) seems to be steering away from these conventions by doing something completely different and fresh by comparison.

I know what Carbine is after. That didn't mean they could not accomplish their goal without a gazillion addons.

That really kills some excitement for me. I have no desire to play a game and manage a ton of addons that almost become necessary. Been there, done that.

This is exactly my point about my hopes for TESO...

 

Believe me I am disappointed about that aspect of WS as well... But having a chance to play the game it almost begs for that style of play... Buff meters, cast bars, DPS meters, Threat, are all going to be "Must Haves" in WS, now throw in PvP and you probably are going to need a slew of mods for that too if you want to be "necessary"

 

I see ESO as having more longevity because it seers clear of these conventions... After people get over the initial shock of

"This is not what I am used to"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27LzPvvpqHY

 

They may actually appreciate what ESO has the potential to offer.

Keldien

At this point, no, I don't think so.

Any game that allows you to see a damage log, or have a reasonable estimate of damage via abilities will have some kind of out-of-game parsing program.  If a group or guild is going to require that, it matters very little if it's supported in-game or not.  Developers just have to be steadfast about not letting those kinds of things change how they make the game - they shouldn't integrate gearscore or DBM into the core game, and then design their fights around that; that's a failing of the developer, not the community for using mods, in my opinion.

arieste

Originally posted by Wighty

If a more skilled group with lesser gear can kill the same encounter in 30 minutes, than a better geared group with lesser skill in 10 minutes, why should a game prevent you from doing so by creating these artifical barriers...

There are multiple flaws with this theoretical situation.

- first of all, if a game is well designed then, the "more skilled group" will have more dps than the lesser skilled group.  Not that damage is the only possible skill, but in general, "more skilled" means "better than the other guys".   

- secondly, having to kill a mob in X minutes is ONE type of challenge.  saying "well if someone kills it in 30 minutes" is not an option when the entire challenge is to kill it in 5.  Now, plenty of other challenge types exist - such as being able to survive for 30 minutes OR challenges whether either the 5min or the 30min strategy works.   

- 3rd.   Having to kill a mob in 5 minutes doesn't need to be measured in DPS.  There are plenty of in-game ways to communicate the passege of time and it running out.   Again, if an encounter is well designed, you don't need to be staring at DPS meters.     

 

How can you even say that a group is "more skilled" when skill is unmeasured.    Think of every competitive skill in the world - they're all measured.  Look at all the team sports - not only is score kept,but individual statistics.  These don't always define the outcome, but they're a way to meaningfully compare competitors.   The same is true for team play in MMOs.    And yes, your own example of "we are skiled enough to stay up for 30 minutes agains this mob" is a measurement of your team's prowess, that you can survive for 30 minutes - which is longer than other teams.    In a marathon fight, you'd do great, in a sprint, maybe not.  Doesn't make one less meaningful than the other. 

 

Jyiiga

People have become overly spoiled with addons and mods.They also like to point fingers and say the developers should add all of this to the base UI. Plenty of MMOs get along fine without them and pretty much all single player titles lack such features.

To me it looks like many players are just looking for an advantage over those around them. They want to see things others don't see. They want to be able to gauge every detail about other players character at a glance so they can pass judgement. They want to take shortcuts.

Hopefully there is a happy middle ground somewhere... because no player should be forced to keep up with dozens of mods/addon and yes you are forced. WOW progressed to the point where you would be denied entry into groups without certain addons, you would be crippled in pvp without certain addons. You would be gauged by your gear due to addons.

This is not the way any quality MMO should function.

p4ttythep3rf3ct

Guess it's time for me to mimic what I said on another board;  two kinds of people use add-ons: Those that cannot figure out how to play well without additional help and those that feel the need to keep up with the Joneses.

 

Keep Add-ons out of all non-single player games!  

Belgaraath

I am all for Mods that only affect the UI, not for anything much deeper than that, especially if it makes finding quests any easier than it already is and destroys the reason to explore....or if it puts people on greatly uneven playing fields.

Mithoronette

ESOUI...'nuff said...

 

The thing about add-ons is this...YOU don't have to use them at all...you can keep your game straight as it is out of the box.  Whether or not they will play as much a role as they do in WoW in terms of raiding a such remains to be seen...

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doragon86

Nope add-ons won't kill the game. Add-ons can't kill games. The presence of add-ons may kill the interest of a potential subscriber however. All I see add-ons doing in this case is adding basic MMO features that should've already been a feature in this game. In this case I feel add-ons were a way for them to avoid dedicating time and effort on certain things. 

azzamasin

Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
I hope they step away from mods that do anthing else then revisualising the UI 

Why?  Does it effect how you play?

 

I am a firm supporter of mods, let them be as intrusive as the authors want them to be.  Choice and freedoms are what distinguish good games from bad.  And Mods give players plenty of choices.