Originally posted by Lord.Bachus I hope they step away from mods that do anthing else then revisualising the UI
Why? Does it effect how you play?
I am a firm supporter of mods, let them be as intrusive as the authors want them to be. Choice and freedoms are what distinguish good games from bad. And Mods give players plenty of choices.
Anyone who will be playing PVP has every right to voice their opinion on mods... because it does affect them. There is already an instant swap gear mod being made. Some people on these forums have also been asking for an extended hot bar mod. So yes, we should be cautious that mods do not give any disernable combat advantage in PVP
I say this because now your reaction time is tied to when a particular mod tells you in flashing letters "Get out of the poo" or "Incoming explosion attack take cover" all the while you have your team yelling for more DPS/heals/threat because your meters are running low because you took a split second more time to take cover.
You only need a mod to tell you to "Get out of the poo" if your game is so poorly designed that it properly communicate this to the player via in-game means. Design the game better from the start so mods aren't needed to play it well. That is - make your poo clearly visible, make the boss's animation and dialogue clearly v
Addons are player created for needs of the addon creator, that other players found out they liked too.
I remember Vuhdo from WotLK, it no longer resembles a light easy heal addon. It's now a 747 cockpit and looks it, too.
I say this because now your reaction time is tied to when a particular mod tells you in flashing letters "Get out of the poo" or "Incoming explosion attack take cover" all the while you have your team yelling for more DPS/heals/threat because your meters are running low because you took a split second more time to take cover.
You only need a mod to tell you to "Get out of the poo" if your game is so poorly designed that it properly communicate this to the player via in-game means. Design the game better from the start so mods aren't needed to play it well. That is - make your poo clearly visible, make the boss's animation and dialogue clearly visible/audible when he is spawning the poo... and THOSE things will be better than needing some mod.
Same thing for DPS, if you're going to design a boss encounter that requires X dps to defeat, then include an in-game way for people to tell what dps they are doing. If you don't, then it encourages people to see this info elsewhere.
It is HARD to make challenging PvE content. So things like movement, positioning and coordination of damage and heals will remain a big part of it. But if you design your game to have these elements, you better provide in-game means for people to interact with them.
An example of this is telegraphs in ESO - you can easily see which area to avoid, so there is no need for any kind of third part program to tell you "do not stand in front of mob", because it is both quicker and easier for players to just pay attention to what's IN GAME. And even if someone DOES have some kind of add-on that gives them a voice trigger, it's not REQUIRED to play the game, because you can just react based on mob's telegraph.
It's all about game design. Sadly, ESO seems to be content with not providing much in-game stuff and letting people make their own. So yeah.. it is what it is. Given how little in-game info is provided, at this point i think it's the other way around where NOT having mods would kill the game.
People keep breaking out the bad design crap on bs like this. What about paying attention or the lack thereof?
You may say "if you don't want it, don't use it". However, I'm afraid that there will be mods that can actually give you advantages, especially in PvP. If you don't use it, you'll suck.
Playing: Darkfall New Dawn (and planning to play Fallout 76) Favourite games have included: UO, Lineage2, Darkfall, Lotro, Baldur's Gate, SSX, FF7 and yes the original Wizardry on an Apple IIe
Originally posted by inemosz Yeah, this is concerning.
You may say "if you don't want it, don't use it". However, I'm afraid that there will be mods that can actually give you advantages, especially in PvP. If you don't use it, you'll suck.
same goes for pve as well, depending on the mod. it forces you to use mods in order to compete.
but as long as they are just UI altering it should be okay still.
People are forgetting this isn't a tab target game so while you are looking at your fancy add-ons I will be landing blows and blocking yours resulting in your untimely death. So when I am putting your head on a stick in pvp you can get an add-on for that too.
edit - I think in pvp it will kind of be like texting and driving for the people reliant on this crap.
As long as you know to how, when and where to use WASD, left-right click, 1,2,3,4,5, there is no one who will get advantage over you, even with milion addons. If you're just a noob, well, maybe you should be afraid.
Originally posted by Arthasm As long as you know to how, when and where to use WASD, left-right click, 1,2,3,4,5, there is no one who will get advantage over you, even with milion addons. If you're just a noob, well, maybe you should be afraid.
I'd like to see you tracking your buffs/debuffs, damage and enemy health using a pen and paper.
Originally posted by Arthasm As long as you know to how, when and where to use WASD, left-right click, 1,2,3,4,5, there is no one who will get advantage over you, even with milion addons. If you're just a noob, well, maybe you should be afraid.
I'd like to see you tracking your buffs/debuffs, damage and enemy health using a pen and paper.
Anything you need to track is included in the games basic ui. Like he said these are just so people don't feel insecure.
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus I hope they step away from mods that do anthing else then revisualising the UI
Why? Does it effect how you play?
I am a firm supporter of mods, let them be as intrusive as the authors want them to be. Choice and freedoms are what distinguish good games from bad. And Mods give players plenty of choices.
Anyone who will be playing PVP has every right to voice their opinion on mods... because it does affect them. There is already an instant swap gear mod being made. Some people on these forums have also been asking for an extended hot bar mod. So yes, we should be cautious that mods do not give any disernable combat advantage in PVP
I'm not defending addons, as I hate all of them (except the loot log, so we can actually see what we autoloot without going into inventory.) However, to my knowledge, you cannot swap gear in combat, which means no, the swap mod will not provide a combat advantage in PvP. It will, however, allow the players who use it to easily switch to a special set before certain PvE encounters that might benefit from it (so long as the person is in combat.)
There will never be an extended hotbar mod, as you have to actually switch your weapons to activate the second hotbar. Unless, of course, the game is programmed more stupidly than I thought (which is possible, I suppose.) I guess only time will tell, though I admit, I would love if the community could stir up enough addon hate to get Zenimax to rethink implementing them.
Originally posted by Arthasm As long as you know to how, when and where to use WASD, left-right click, 1,2,3,4,5, there is no one who will get advantage over you, even with milion addons. If you're just a noob, well, maybe you should be afraid.
I'd like to see you tracking your buffs/debuffs, damage and enemy health using a pen and paper.
Play a game enough and you know exactly what you're hit with by the enemy's animations/your animations, and what that means for your character. Addons remove this potential skill differential.
Also, if a game doesn't have clear declarations of these things, content doesn't have to be balanced around people having them. Within six months they'll be designing dungeons for people that are using addons like these, which only hurts everyone who decided not to download them.
The only reason I can think for Zenimax to implement something like a detailed combat log / timers / whatever is purely for debugging purposes. A combat log is the only thing you'd need for that though.
addons that give you a heads-up or tells you what do or help you in anyway in the game should be forbidden in every game.
Look at WOW as an example, if you don't have addons you can't join any group and raid and all the new content is burned through in 2 weeks cause addons are telling you when to jump left or when tanks loses aggro or whatever.
Wow would be the best game out there and the most challenging game there is if they forbid addons, insteed it's easy.
Sure it's fun in the beginning when you get your bosses down for the first time but wouldn't it be more fun if you really had something that requires tactics and knowledge?
Addons for me is somewhere between you doing all your stuff yourselves and having a robot doin it for you.
I think you will find a huge push back from elderscrolls purists.
They will probably gooble them up the fastest, as they'll use the mods also to customize their experience.
Addons are 2 things: visual/UI improvements and information.
If visual improvements and information are "problems" then there's no point playing a game, as remaining deaf, dumb and blind it's impossible to enjoy.
I think you will find a huge push back from elderscrolls purists.
They will probably gooble them up the fastest, as they'll use the mods also to customize their experience.
Addons are 2 things: visual/UI improvements and information.
If visual improvements and information are "problems" then there's no point playing a game, as remaining deaf, dumb and blind it's impossible to enjoy.
I guess real life is impossible to enjoy, because if you stub your toe on the leg of your bed, you don't have little numbers flashing up telling you precisely how much damage you took.
I see no problem with the loot/inventory addons, or even buff timers. I would hate to see DPS meters myself, but none of them would be a game killer for me.
The one addon I would truly like to see would be something simple like raid/target markers for killing order. The few dungeons i ran were pretty chaotic with everyone trying to tank their own mob or constantly pulling agro off the tank by not hitting the one he had CC'ed. Although I am sure as everyone gets more playtime this aspect would improve as well.
Target Enemy Player Live PvP StatsIf you watch just off center of screen, you will see the UI mode display target enemy players [Name, Class, Level, Health/Stamina/Magicka Pools, Buffs, Debuffs, and Spell Casting Interrupt Timer]
If you don't mind having the option to playing the game at a disadvantage, or if you would like to play having the option that goes against what they've said in interviews.
ZOS is emphasizing that visual cues for enemy abilities that require various player responses are prominently displayed in the world rather than simply as a UI element. Instead of using interface prompts like cast bars or text warnings, players will be required to watch the physical movements of enemies in order to anticipate their attacks.
UI mod from video directly contradicts this statment.
ZeniMax recognizes the strong role of the modding community in Elder Scrolls franchise, and certain aspects of the game experience, like the UI, will allow for user customization, reskinning, and limited modification. ESO will support LUA based modifications that will allow modders to interact with the game's systems through an API. This will allow modders to create interface based modifications like enhanced combat text or buff timers.
Client side superficial are fine, but not when its live data used against others .. knowingly or not.
The ESO gameplay experience is designed to be "distraction based", in that instead of following an on-rails trajectory of advancement, players explore the world and encounter quests, dungeons, and events which are strategically placed to emphasize exploration and non-guided advancement
I really don't see why DPS meters cop so much hate. I mean failing a dungeon over and over, not knowing why, is incredibly frustrating and if you can work out why you are failing it is a huge benefit. It is generally quite obvious if a healer or tank is letting the group down but can be difficult with multiple DPS. Even if it is you who is letting the team down at least then you know you need to gear up more or change something before coming back in so you aren't pulling down group after group. I would rather know than not :P
Thank you for all of your work bringing this issue to light we will do our best to see that something is done about the issues you are speaking about. We would also like to keep our design philosophy in mind and do not encourage the use of mod's to gain advantages in pvp putting the work of other players to naught. Thank you for your continued interest and support!
I have participated in the ESO beta and really enjoy the immersion aspect of the game where numbers are not flashing in front of you, minimalist UI, and the overall feeling of being a part of your environment.
I also noticed a part of the UI that listed ADD ON's... I only hope this will not be the same nightmare, that it has created in other games...
I am not talking about addon's that allow you to change the aesthetic of your UI, I am taling mainly about the addon's that affect the way the game is played, and how you as a player are perceived.
Addon's like DPS meters, Deadly boss mobs, threat meters... These mods have changed the way a particular MMO is played to the point it disrupts the development cycles because having these items becomes a necessity.
I say this because now your reaction time is tied to when a particular mod tells you in flashing letters "Get out of the poo" or "Incoming explosion attack take cover" all the while you have your team yelling for more DPS/heals/threat because your meters are running low because you took a split second more time to take cover.
Before there were addons as such, you had some margin for error because you had to "figure it out"... situations were a bit more forgiving because the developers weren't challenged with having to create encounters where some mod is telling the player exactly what and how to do something. Encounters today feel like a country line dance where everyone moves in unison because they are told exactly how and where to move.
It is almost a guarantee that Wildstar will follow the above "must have this addon to play this game" format, I just hope ESO limits what is possible with addons so the game doesn't become just another twtich style combat dance dance revolution simulator.
The same way addons killed WoW, right?
Yes. Addons are going to enhance a users gameplay experience and will probably even give an advantage to players who use them. No it doesn't "kill* the game. There are a handful of forum warriors that are very anti-addon, and you're far better off ignoring them and letting the modding community improve your game for free.
there is already combat log addons, combar parsers, there is addons that automatically invite people to your group, muti quest tracker addons, replacements group and raid frames, bag addons, data text bar addons... from the looks of it, with how powerful some of the addons are in what they can actually do.. the API for TESO is very open and accessable.
Originally posted by mbrodie there is already combat log addons, combar parsers, there is addons that automatically invite people to your group, muti quest tracker addons, replacements group and raid frames, bag addons, data text bar addons... from the looks of it, with how powerful some of the addons are in what they can actually do.. the API for TESO is very open and accessable.
People have become overly spoiled with addons and mods.They also like to point fingers and say the developers should add all of this to the base UI. Plenty of MMOs get along fine without them and pretty much all single player titles lack such features.
To me it looks like many players are just looking for an advantage over those around them. They want to see things others don't see. They want to be able to gauge every detail about other players character at a glance so they can pass judgement. They want to take shortcuts.
Hopefully there is a happy middle ground somewhere... because no player should be forced to keep up with dozens of mods/addon and yes you are forced. WOW progressed to the point where you would be denied entry into groups without certain addons, you would be crippled in pvp without certain addons. You would be gauged by your gear due to addons.
This is not the way any quality MMO should function.
The reason addons are so prevalent stems from the fact that MMORPG gamers by their very nature tend to be min/max type mentalities. MMORPG gamers tend to like analysing combat details down to minute fractions in order to ensure that what they are doing is the most efficient and effective manner of fighting.
Many games are released with ever increasingly complex boss mechanics in things like RAIDS, things like enrage timers etc. However many games also release with woefully inadequate UIs and often no way of telling how close you were to killing that boss, or where you need to increase your dps etc. Mods became prevalent mainly due to most MMORPGs having the combat data available but having second rate UIs.
If your game has complex mechanics then it needs a comprehensive UI rather than leaving so much to guess work.
Secondly, PvP type MMMORPG players are always looking for a competetive advantage. If they can get the drop on you via the use of a certain mod, you can bet your last penny they are going to and they will zero sympathy for your cries if you have access to the same options and opportunities that they do. but choose not top use them.
You all seem to say you want competetive PvP but that means at least embracing the competetive PvP mindset.
If you want competetive PvP to be a part of the game then you have to accept that mods will be used and almost required due to the bare bones nature of the UI. If the devs had done a better job on the UI and combat feedback we would not even need to have this conversation.
If the game was to launch with its current, extremely basic UI ( I mean come on guys, not even any buff/debuff frames? Seriously? Even Dark Souls UI has the decency to TELL you if you are suffering from a bleed dot or cursed or poisoned!!) and NO mod support, well that would kill the competetive PvP aspect of the game stone dead imo as the default UI is far too basic to lend itself to competetive PvP gameplay.
Originally posted by Arthasm As long as you know to how, when and where to use WASD, left-right click, 1,2,3,4,5, there is no one who will get advantage over you, even with milion addons. If you're just a noob, well, maybe you should be afraid.
I'd like to see you tracking your buffs/debuffs, damage and enemy health using a pen and paper.
Anything you need to track is included in the games basic ui. Like he said these are just so people don't feel insecure.
"Anything you need to track is included in the games basic ui."
So the default UI includes frames for displaying buffs/debuffs?
Like I said even a game as brutal as Dark Souls has the decency to tell you via the UI if you are suffering from a dot / bleed / curse / poison.....what are we supposed to do "guess" whether that debuff or dot actually stuck? "Hope" that the buffs we apply worked?
Comments
Anyone who will be playing PVP has every right to voice their opinion on mods... because it does affect them. There is already an instant swap gear mod being made. Some people on these forums have also been asking for an extended hot bar mod. So yes, we should be cautious that mods do not give any disernable combat advantage in PVP
Addons are player created for needs of the addon creator, that other players found out they liked too.
I remember Vuhdo from WotLK, it no longer resembles a light easy heal addon. It's now a 747 cockpit and looks it, too.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
As they think addons = macros. -_-
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
Yeah, this is concerning.
You may say "if you don't want it, don't use it". However, I'm afraid that there will be mods that can actually give you advantages, especially in PvP. If you don't use it, you'll suck.
100% agree with the OP
Hate the bloody things.
Playing: Darkfall New Dawn (and planning to play Fallout 76)
Favourite games have included: UO, Lineage2, Darkfall, Lotro, Baldur's Gate, SSX, FF7 and yes the original Wizardry on an Apple IIe
same goes for pve as well, depending on the mod. it forces you to use mods in order to compete.
but as long as they are just UI altering it should be okay still.
I think you will find a huge push back from elderscrolls purists.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
People are forgetting this isn't a tab target game so while you are looking at your fancy add-ons I will be landing blows and blocking yours resulting in your untimely death. So when I am putting your head on a stick in pvp you can get an add-on for that too.
edit - I think in pvp it will kind of be like texting and driving for the people reliant on this crap.
Life IS Feudal
I'd like to see you tracking your buffs/debuffs, damage and enemy health using a pen and paper.
Anything you need to track is included in the games basic ui. Like he said these are just so people don't feel insecure.
Life IS Feudal
I'm not defending addons, as I hate all of them (except the loot log, so we can actually see what we autoloot without going into inventory.) However, to my knowledge, you cannot swap gear in combat, which means no, the swap mod will not provide a combat advantage in PvP. It will, however, allow the players who use it to easily switch to a special set before certain PvE encounters that might benefit from it (so long as the person is in combat.)
There will never be an extended hotbar mod, as you have to actually switch your weapons to activate the second hotbar. Unless, of course, the game is programmed more stupidly than I thought (which is possible, I suppose.) I guess only time will tell, though I admit, I would love if the community could stir up enough addon hate to get Zenimax to rethink implementing them.
Play a game enough and you know exactly what you're hit with by the enemy's animations/your animations, and what that means for your character. Addons remove this potential skill differential.
Also, if a game doesn't have clear declarations of these things, content doesn't have to be balanced around people having them. Within six months they'll be designing dungeons for people that are using addons like these, which only hurts everyone who decided not to download them.
The only reason I can think for Zenimax to implement something like a detailed combat log / timers / whatever is purely for debugging purposes. A combat log is the only thing you'd need for that though.
addons that give you a heads-up or tells you what do or help you in anyway in the game should be forbidden in every game.
Look at WOW as an example, if you don't have addons you can't join any group and raid and all the new content is burned through in 2 weeks cause addons are telling you when to jump left or when tanks loses aggro or whatever.
Wow would be the best game out there and the most challenging game there is if they forbid addons, insteed it's easy.
Sure it's fun in the beginning when you get your bosses down for the first time but wouldn't it be more fun if you really had something that requires tactics and knowledge?
Addons for me is somewhere between you doing all your stuff yourselves and having a robot doin it for you.
KILL ALL ADDONS!!!!
// Beelze
They will probably gooble them up the fastest, as they'll use the mods also to customize their experience.
Addons are 2 things: visual/UI improvements and information.
If visual improvements and information are "problems" then there's no point playing a game, as remaining deaf, dumb and blind it's impossible to enjoy.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
I guess real life is impossible to enjoy, because if you stub your toe on the leg of your bed, you don't have little numbers flashing up telling you precisely how much damage you took.
I see no problem with the loot/inventory addons, or even buff timers. I would hate to see DPS meters myself, but none of them would be a game killer for me.
The one addon I would truly like to see would be something simple like raid/target markers for killing order. The few dungeons i ran were pretty chaotic with everyone trying to tank their own mob or constantly pulling agro off the tank by not hitting the one he had CC'ed. Although I am sure as everyone gets more playtime this aspect would improve as well.
Target Enemy Player Live PvP StatsIf you watch just off center of screen, you will see the UI mode display target enemy players [Name, Class, Level, Health/Stamina/Magicka Pools, Buffs, Debuffs, and Spell Casting Interrupt Timer]
If you don't mind having the option to playing the game at a disadvantage, or if you would like to play having the option that goes against what they've said in interviews.
UI mod from video directly contradicts this statment. Client side superficial are fine, but not when its live data used against others .. knowingly or not. Contradiction with the allowance for much UI mods.** Quotes from TF.com Development FAQ **
Safehouse Gaming up and running at: http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCnKd0Hk85CQ_N04Ae7v5zZg
This is a legit reply from my email.
Feel free to copy / paste this to other boards!
They have heard our concerns.
The same way addons killed WoW, right?
Yes. Addons are going to enhance a users gameplay experience and will probably even give an advantage to players who use them. No it doesn't "kill* the game. There are a handful of forum warriors that are very anti-addon, and you're far better off ignoring them and letting the modding community improve your game for free.
This is very true.
The reason addons are so prevalent stems from the fact that MMORPG gamers by their very nature tend to be min/max type mentalities. MMORPG gamers tend to like analysing combat details down to minute fractions in order to ensure that what they are doing is the most efficient and effective manner of fighting.
Many games are released with ever increasingly complex boss mechanics in things like RAIDS, things like enrage timers etc. However many games also release with woefully inadequate UIs and often no way of telling how close you were to killing that boss, or where you need to increase your dps etc. Mods became prevalent mainly due to most MMORPGs having the combat data available but having second rate UIs.
If your game has complex mechanics then it needs a comprehensive UI rather than leaving so much to guess work.
Secondly, PvP type MMMORPG players are always looking for a competetive advantage. If they can get the drop on you via the use of a certain mod, you can bet your last penny they are going to and they will zero sympathy for your cries if you have access to the same options and opportunities that they do. but choose not top use them.
You all seem to say you want competetive PvP but that means at least embracing the competetive PvP mindset.
If you want competetive PvP to be a part of the game then you have to accept that mods will be used and almost required due to the bare bones nature of the UI. If the devs had done a better job on the UI and combat feedback we would not even need to have this conversation.
If the game was to launch with its current, extremely basic UI ( I mean come on guys, not even any buff/debuff frames? Seriously? Even Dark Souls UI has the decency to TELL you if you are suffering from a bleed dot or cursed or poisoned!!) and NO mod support, well that would kill the competetive PvP aspect of the game stone dead imo as the default UI is far too basic to lend itself to competetive PvP gameplay.
Driz
"Anything you need to track is included in the games basic ui."
So the default UI includes frames for displaying buffs/debuffs?
Like I said even a game as brutal as Dark Souls has the decency to tell you via the UI if you are suffering from a dot / bleed / curse / poison.....what are we supposed to do "guess" whether that debuff or dot actually stuck? "Hope" that the buffs we apply worked?
Driz