You don't need any of this crap that everyone wants
The game stands well enough alone without this stuff that you can easily find in other games. If you like these elements - go play the other games. Stop trying to justify changing how Poker is played because you personally prefer BlackJack. Otherwise, learn how to play Poker like everyone else.
There simply isn't an argument that is going to win over this very reasonable truth. You can get pissy all you want about "I want it this way." Well... again... your wants are no more justified than my wants. Its time game developers stop trying to please everyone, and just focus on building a good, solid game. They have done this. Allowing these sorts of mods to be made is going to screw ALL of that up. How do I know? Because the game is PvP heavy. These sorts of tools are going to change the game, drastically.
You don't need any of this crap that everyone wants
The game stands well enough alone without this stuff that you can easily find in other games. If you like these elements - go play the other games. Stop trying to justify changing how Poker is played because you personally prefer BlackJack. Otherwise, learn how to play Poker like everyone else.
There simply isn't an argument that is going to win over this very reasonable truth. You can get pissy all you want about "I want it this way." Well... again... your wants are no more justified than my wants. Its time game developers stop trying to please everyone, and just focus on building a good, solid game. They have done this. Allowing these sorts of mods to be made is going to screw ALL of that up. How do I know? Because the game is PvP heavy. These sorts of tools are going to change the game, drastically.
I hope it won't be in the game. Gearscore or armor level was a pain in the ass as well and excluded players instead of making the community inclusive and helpful.
You don't need any of this crap that everyone wants
The game stands well enough alone without this stuff that you can easily find in other games. If you like these elements - go play the other games. Stop trying to justify changing how Poker is played because you personally prefer BlackJack. Otherwise, learn how to play Poker like everyone else.
There simply isn't an argument that is going to win over this very reasonable truth. You can get pissy all you want about "I want it this way." Well... again... your wants are no more justified than my wants. Its time game developers stop trying to please everyone, and just focus on building a good, solid game. They have done this. Allowing these sorts of mods to be made is going to screw ALL of that up. How do I know? Because the game is PvP heavy. These sorts of tools are going to change the game, drastically.
I hope it won't be in the game. Gearscore or armor level was a pain in the ass as well and excluded players instead of making the community inclusive and helpful.
It doesn't matter how much stuff you try to get removed from the game. As the game ages, people will become more focused on efficiently getting stuff done, and elitism will show up. Removing Addons isn't going to stop people from dropping you if your in a high tier run with low tier gear.
You don't need any of this crap that everyone wants
The game stands well enough alone without this stuff that you can easily find in other games. If you like these elements - go play the other games. Stop trying to justify changing how Poker is played because you personally prefer BlackJack. Otherwise, learn how to play Poker like everyone else.
There simply isn't an argument that is going to win over this very reasonable truth. You can get pissy all you want about "I want it this way." Well... again... your wants are no more justified than my wants. Its time game developers stop trying to please everyone, and just focus on building a good, solid game. They have done this. Allowing these sorts of mods to be made is going to screw ALL of that up. How do I know? Because the game is PvP heavy. These sorts of tools are going to change the game, drastically.
You don't need third person
You don't need first person
You don't need pvp
You don't need raiding
You don't need grouping
You don't need exploration
etc
You don't need any of this crap that everyone wants........But each of them will make the game better for some people
It is just the advanced stuff from the drop down (same search menu really). For whatever reason I am not getting the same results, even though I am in the same test group. PM offer still open! I am certainly curious.
Anyways, back on track.
The guy's being disengenoius with the poll. The vast majority of people in that thread are for UI cosmetic customization. Also, that thread is only accessible to a group of people from the forums. That's it. The poll is set up as a yes or no when the issue itself is more complicated than that.
It is just the advanced stuff from the drop down (same search menu really). For whatever reason I am not getting the same results, even though I am in the same test group. PM offer still open! I am certainly curious.
Anyways, back on track.
The guy's being disengenoius with the poll. The vast majority of people in that thread are for UI cosmetic customization. Also, that thread is only accessible to a group of people from the forums. That's it. The poll is set up as a yes or no when the issue itself is more complicated than that.
How was I being disingenuous? I listed the poll (both of them including the addon free campaign one) the available options results and even said it was a small sample size, how the hell is that disingenuous?!
I've changed my view slightly. I've actually been looking through the API information for ESO, and yeh, they are going to need to conditionally disable a lot of that stuff depending on whether the player is in PVP.
It is just the advanced stuff from the drop down (same search menu really). For whatever reason I am not getting the same results, even though I am in the same test group. PM offer still open! I am certainly curious.
Anyways, back on track.
The guy's being disengenoius with the poll. The vast majority of people in that thread are for UI cosmetic customization. Also, that thread is only accessible to a group of people from the forums. That's it. The poll is set up as a yes or no when the issue itself is more complicated than that.
How was I being disingenuous? I listed the poll (both of them including the addon free campaign one) the available options results and even said it was a small sample size, how the hell is that disingenuous?!
Because this 'drama' behind the whole addons thing isn't whether to have them or not. It's how far these addons go. It's obvious when you read the comment section of many people whom said the are for addons, but concerned with them going too far. You never acknowledged that and that's where you're being disingenuous about the support for addons.
Because this 'drama' behind the whole addons thing isn't whether to have them or not. It's how far these addons go. It's obvious when you read the comment section of many people whom said the are for addons, but concerned with them going too far. You never acknowledged that and that's where you're being disingenuous about the support for addons.
I may not be able to see the poll, but that is what I have been seeing in the ones I can view in other areas.
Not a simple yes or no. The topic is to complex for that, but more along the lines of "yes with exceptions".
It is just the advanced stuff from the drop down (same search menu really). For whatever reason I am not getting the same results, even though I am in the same test group. PM offer still open! I am certainly curious.
Anyways, back on track.
The guy's being disengenoius with the poll. The vast majority of people in that thread are for UI cosmetic customization. Also, that thread is only accessible to a group of people from the forums. That's it. The poll is set up as a yes or no when the issue itself is more complicated than that.
How was I being disingenuous? I listed the poll (both of them including the addon free campaign one) the available options results and even said it was a small sample size, how the hell is that disingenuous?!
Because this 'drama' behind the whole addons thing isn't whether to have them or not. It's how far these addons go. It's obvious when you read the comment section of many people whom said the are for addons, but concerned with them going too far. You never acknowledged that and that's where you're being disingenuous about the support for addons.
So in order to be genuine I have to go through that thread looking at each persons sentiment and give a ratio of who is happy with he addons we have now and those who want extra restriction? By not doing that I'm somehow being dishonest am I?
I suppose the other poll I mentioned that says people aren't even in favour of having some campaigns be addon free (which I personally would be fine with) was dishonest too?
I think you should actually think before accusing people of being dishonest, especially when there is no dishonesty there
Edit: just went through the entire thread and out of the 3 pages of comments there's a whole 2 comments by yes voters saying they should be restricted and one of them was actually fine with the current addons, so yes I am the one clearly being disingenuous by not mentioning the whole 2 posts that make that point /sarcasm
How does seeing my magika and stamina help you though, if you don't know my build it doesn't and even if you do how is it going to help you? Are you going to run away if I have full resources? No you will still fight me regardless
Are you kidding me? The ENTIRE combat system revolves around resource management. There are no cooldowns, therefore, efficiency when managing resources is critical and knowing how well your opponent is doing is also of upmost importance. Say, for example, you encounter a Templar (I forgot to mention, the add-on also tells the enemy's class). A Templar's abilities are based primarily on Magicka, especially the heals. If the Templar's magicka is low, he simply does not have the resources to heal through a powerful burst sequence. Therefore, when the add-on shows he is low on magicka, you know that is the right time to go all out and expend your own resources in an attempt to kill him.
Another example: Say you are a Nightblade and placed a skill point in Assassin's Blade, which is an execute-style ability. With the add-on you know the exact moment to use your Assassin's Blade for maximal damage, because the add-on tells you the percentage of health your target has, something the default UI does not.
Buffs and debuffs appear around the target frame, each has its own affect on the frame, when they disappear, they are up. If you struggle to see when to interrupt a spell, you are blind/stupid and theres no addons to help with that, its very obvious no matter what the spell is, and the animations are actually all pretty different once you know what you are looking at. You don't need to know when the casting is finished because by then its too late, as long as you can tell the casting has started you can interrupt (which is the only reason to want to see cast bars anyway).
I am honestly not quite sure what you are talking about regarding buffs and debuffs. I don't recall being able to track them with the default UI. Please, elucidate this point for me.
There's no point in calling people names. It does not make your argument more valid in any manner and is simply offensive. Either way, perhaps you did not understand what I stated regarding interrupts, so I will try to make it clearer. If you know exactly how long your enemy's spell takes to cast with the use of add-ons, you can pull off a counter-attack far more precisely and effectively than if you didn't. Again, resource management is everything in ESO's combat system. Let's say, for instance, that you are a staff-wielding sorcerer fighting a templar. You are both ranged combatants. The templar begins casting a heal which has a cast time (2nd ability in the Restoring Light tree) while you are firing off your abilities. The add-on tells you there is still time to interrupt his spell, so you cast your disorient, Rune Prison, maximizing DPS while ensuring his heal is interrupted. Take the same scenario, now without the add-on. The templar begins casting his heal while you are firing off your abilities. You see the animation and know it is his heal, but you don't know how much longer you have to interrupt it. If you cast Rune Prison too late, and he pulls the heal off, you effectively help him instead. You consider this so, because of this uncertainty, you decide to not use Rune Prison, therefore decreasing your combat efficiency.
I know the example is quite detailed, but I am trying to show how knowing the exact amount of time a spell will take to be cast is critical for timing interrupts and other similar counters.
The only thing you have mentioned that isn't available is seeing other players mana/stamina, and lets be honest its pretty shocking that those things aren't available as an option in the base ui anyway (like it is in every themepark mmorpg), but claiming it gives some big advantage to those with addons is pure nonsense, especially in this game where the main end game (AvA) is based unequal sided battles anyway
Shocking? Why? This is not a standard MMO. Would you also say it is shocking that this game does not have auto-attack? This game is based off of the Elder Scrolls series, and the UI is very similar. In Skyrim/Oblivion, you can only see the enemy's name and their health. I do not see why ESO should stray too far away from that.
It is not pure nonsense, why do you think the hardcore pvp guilds are posting videos with their UI completely modified? This is no coincidence, no "completely optional clutter", like how you put it. These add-ons serve a very real purpose, providing a genuine advantage to its users and it seems you are in denial. It does not matter that the game may feature battles with unequal sides. That argument is completely weak due to the rationale behind it. Using this reasoning, it would matter not if templars were more powerful than nightblades because there will always be uneven sides in AvA. Balance should be strived for however possible, and restricting add-ons so they do not have an influence over the game's competitive nature is critical for that.
You don't need any of this crap that everyone wants
The game stands well enough alone without this stuff that you can easily find in other games. If you like these elements - go play the other games. Stop trying to justify changing how Poker is played because you personally prefer BlackJack. Otherwise, learn how to play Poker like everyone else.
There simply isn't an argument that is going to win over this very reasonable truth. You can get pissy all you want about "I want it this way." Well... again... your wants are no more justified than my wants. Its time game developers stop trying to please everyone, and just focus on building a good, solid game. They have done this. Allowing these sorts of mods to be made is going to screw ALL of that up. How do I know? Because the game is PvP heavy. These sorts of tools are going to change the game, drastically.
You don't need third person
You don't need first person
You don't need pvp
You don't need raiding
You don't need grouping
You don't need exploration
etc
You don't need any of this crap that everyone wants........But each of them will make the game better for some people
You're absolutely right - you don't need any of it. But the devs have built a game based off of those systems. You are welcome to enjoy the game as it is, or play something else that is more to your liking. Fortunately, the devs have already provided me with things I like, and excluded things I don't like. You obviously have different tastes. You don't have to play it. You can play any game that has what you want in it. What you're not going to do is make some pitiful defense about why a game should be more like what you want. Let the game be what it is and stop trying to change it. Either get on board, or go to another ship.
You don't need any of this crap that everyone wants
The game stands well enough alone without this stuff that you can easily find in other games. If you like these elements - go play the other games. Stop trying to justify changing how Poker is played because you personally prefer BlackJack. Otherwise, learn how to play Poker like everyone else.
There simply isn't an argument that is going to win over this very reasonable truth. You can get pissy all you want about "I want it this way." Well... again... your wants are no more justified than my wants. Its time game developers stop trying to please everyone, and just focus on building a good, solid game. They have done this. Allowing these sorts of mods to be made is going to screw ALL of that up. How do I know? Because the game is PvP heavy. These sorts of tools are going to change the game, drastically.
I hope it won't be in the game. Gearscore or armor level was a pain in the ass as well and excluded players instead of making the community inclusive and helpful.
It doesn't matter how much stuff you try to get removed from the game. As the game ages, people will become more focused on efficiently getting stuff done, and elitism will show up. Removing Addons isn't going to stop people from dropping you if your in a high tier run with low tier gear.
You're talking about what is not needed vs something that is already in the game. If it was needed - the devs would have put it in the game. If it wasn't needed, then it wasn't needed.
Obviously, no one is going to reserve a spot for someone with tier 1 gear when Tier 3 is needed. We aren't talking about that. Tier 3 Gear will produce higher numbers - this is a no brainer and is expected. The issue with having numbers show up has nothing to do with that. It has to do with how one builds their character. The game has a million different ways for you to build whatever kind of character you want. The minute people can start looking at the numbers and start producing the spread-sheet game, is the minute no one is allowed to play what they want to play.
You're no longer allowed to play the Templar that uses Bows, Light armor, and enjoys the ability to be a Vampire. You're now reduced to being the Templar that uses Restoration Staff, Heavy Armor, and must be a Werewolf. Not because you personally find it interesting to play, but because the hierarchy of elitism says you can't play without the cookie-cutter build.
Having a specific tier of equipment is a different matter that has nothing to do with add-ons. I can't argue against that sort of elitism, because it is obviously already built into the game. But I sure as hell can argue against something that ISN'T in the game. Reduce the outlets for one to be Elitist in, and you will have fewer who fall under its banner of un-reason.
The biggest issue of all actually has to do with the nature of Cyrodil and how closely tied PvP is to the economy. When you start getting people who aren't even playing the game, but instead are playing the numbers... you suddenly have a system where if you aren't on that page... you simply don't matter.
I don't like the idea of people having sway over how I play a game the devs originally designed it to be played. If the devs made it so - so be it. I would either find a way to enjoy it... or move to something else - which is often the case. This is the exact same prospect I provide anyone else. Either like what the devs have made... or find something else to play. It isn't that hard.
How does seeing my magika and stamina help you though, if you don't know my build it doesn't and even if you do how is it going to help you? Are you going to run away if I have full resources? No you will still fight me regardless
Are you kidding me? The ENTIRE combat system revolves around resource management. There are no cooldowns, therefore, efficiency when managing resources is critical and knowing how well your opponent is doing is also of upmost importance. Say, for example, you encounter a Templar (I forgot to mention, the add-on also tells the enemy's class). A Templar's abilities are based primarily on Magicka, especially the heals. If the Templar's magicka is low, he simply does not have the resources to heal through a powerful burst sequence. Therefore, when the add-on shows he is low on magicka, you know that is the right time to go all out and expend your own resources in an attempt to kill him.
Another example: Say you are a Nightblade and placed a skill point in Assassin's Blade, which is an execute-style ability. With the add-on you know the exact moment to use your Assassin's Blade for maximal damage, because the add-on tells you the percentage of health your target has, something the default UI does not.
Buffs and debuffs appear around the target frame, each has its own affect on the frame, when they disappear, they are up. If you struggle to see when to interrupt a spell, you are blind/stupid and theres no addons to help with that, its very obvious no matter what the spell is, and the animations are actually all pretty different once you know what you are looking at. You don't need to know when the casting is finished because by then its too late, as long as you can tell the casting has started you can interrupt (which is the only reason to want to see cast bars anyway).
I am honestly not quite sure what you are talking about regarding buffs and debuffs. I don't recall being able to track them with the default UI. Please, elucidate this point for me.
There's no point in calling people names. It does not make your argument more valid in any manner and is simply offensive. Either way, perhaps you did not understand what I stated regarding interrupts, so I will try to make it clearer. If you know exactly how long your enemy's spell takes to cast with the use of add-ons, you can pull off a counter-attack far more precisely and effectively than if you didn't. Again, resource management is everything in ESO's combat system. Let's say, for instance, that you are a staff-wielding sorcerer fighting a templar. You are both ranged combatants. The templar begins casting a heal which has a cast time (2nd ability in the Restoring Light tree) while you are firing off your abilities. The add-on tells you there is still time to interrupt his spell, so you cast your disorient, Rune Prison, maximizing DPS while ensuring his heal is interrupted. Take the same scenario, now without the add-on. The templar begins casting his heal while you are firing off your abilities. You see the animation and know it is his heal, but you don't know how much longer you have to interrupt it. If you cast Rune Prison too late, and he pulls the heal off, you effectively help him instead. You consider this so, because of this uncertainty, you decide to not use Rune Prison, therefore decreasing your combat efficiency.
I know the example is quite detailed, but I am trying to show how knowing the exact amount of time a spell will take to be cast is critical for timing interrupts and other similar counters.
The only thing you have mentioned that isn't available is seeing other players mana/stamina, and lets be honest its pretty shocking that those things aren't available as an option in the base ui anyway (like it is in every themepark mmorpg), but claiming it gives some big advantage to those with addons is pure nonsense, especially in this game where the main end game (AvA) is based unequal sided battles anyway
Shocking? Why? This is not a standard MMO. Would you also say it is shocking that this game does not have auto-attack? This game is based off of the Elder Scrolls series, and the UI is very similar. In Skyrim/Oblivion, you can only see the enemy's name and their health. I do not see why ESO should stray too far away from that.
It is not pure nonsense, why do you think the hardcore pvp guilds are posting videos with their UI completely modified? This is no coincidence, no "completely optional clutter", like how you put it. These add-ons serve a very real purpose, providing a genuine advantage to its users and it seems you are in denial. It does not matter that the game may feature battles with unequal sides. That argument is completely weak due to the rationale behind it. Using this reasoning, it would matter not if templars were more powerful than nightblades because there will always be uneven sides in AvA. Balance should be strived for however possible, and restricting add-ons so they do not have an influence over the game's competitive nature is critical for that.
All classes are mana based so that point is somewhat moot and even being able to see they are oom doesn't mean they can't defend no matter what class, and like I say that should be a standard part of the UI as not being able to tell resource levels of other players completely gimps certain roles/'abilities
The buffs are represented by different effects around the target frame, some make the edge glow, some put extra edges around the frame, some make the red bit look like its cracked, some make the red bit purple etc
Interrupts are easy if you look at your target and as the game is aim based that's where you will be looking, because each cast time spell has an obvious "wind up" animation. If that's not obvious enough there's an option you can toggle on for "combat hints" (I think it was called) that tells you exactly when to interrupt or block and even tells you what to press to do it
I remember another mmo based on a single player series and before that game launched the same argument about combat info, ui and addons was hashed out over and over and over again, People saying that because of single player games didn't need all this info it wouldn't be needed in the mmo and they went the no-addon route in the end. The game launched everyone complained about the ui and lack of combat info, then it started to leak subscriptions super fast and one of the first things they added to stop the tide was a customizable UI and a combat parser, was too little too late then though and it went f2p not long afterwards
You don't need any of this crap that everyone wants
The game stands well enough alone without this stuff that you can easily find in other games. If you like these elements - go play the other games. Stop trying to justify changing how Poker is played because you personally prefer BlackJack. Otherwise, learn how to play Poker like everyone else.
There simply isn't an argument that is going to win over this very reasonable truth. You can get pissy all you want about "I want it this way." Well... again... your wants are no more justified than my wants. Its time game developers stop trying to please everyone, and just focus on building a good, solid game. They have done this. Allowing these sorts of mods to be made is going to screw ALL of that up. How do I know? Because the game is PvP heavy. These sorts of tools are going to change the game, drastically.
You don't need third person
You don't need first person
You don't need pvp
You don't need raiding
You don't need grouping
You don't need exploration
etc
You don't need any of this crap that everyone wants........But each of them will make the game better for some people
You're absolutely right - you don't need any of it. But the devs have built a game based off of those systems. You are welcome to enjoy the game as it is, or play something else that is more to your liking. Fortunately, the devs have already provided me with things I like, and excluded things I don't like. You obviously have different tastes. You don't have to play it. You can play any game that has what you want in it. What you're not going to do is make some pitiful defense about why a game should be more like what you want. Let the game be what it is and stop trying to change it. Either get on board, or go to another ship.
You don't have an argument. Let it go.
The devs also built the ui with addons in mind, as they announced lua support back in 2012 (month after it was announced) pretty much the exact same time as they officially announced the game
All classes are mana based so that point is somewhat moot and even being able to see they are oom doesn't mean they can't defend no matter what class, and like I say that should be a standard part of the UI as not being able to tell resource levels of other players completely gimps certain roles/'abilities
True, any class can be mana-based, but I fail to see how that makes it a moot point. Resource management is still as critical as ever. A player without resources will be severely impaired, and that is most definitely the best time to burst him down.
The buffs are represented by different effects around the target frame, some make the edge glow, some put extra edges around the frame, some make the red bit look like its cracked, some make the red bit purple etc
Did not notice this, will have to try it out tomorrow and see how it works.
Interrupts are easy if you look at your target and as the game is aim based that's where you will be looking, because each cast time spell has an obvious "wind up" animation. If that's not obvious enough there's an option you can toggle on for "combat hints" (I think it was called) that tells you exactly when to interrupt or block and even tells you what to press to do it
It is most definitely possible to block/interrupt without using the UI elements, but the add-ons trivialize this entire aspect of combat. Knowing exactly when an ability will go off instead of approximately knowing when it will go off makes blocking and interrupting far too easy to pull off.
I remember another mmo based on a single player series and before that game launched the same argument about combat info, ui and addons was hashed out over and over and over again, People saying that because of single player games didn't need all this info it wouldn't be needed in the mmo and they went the no-addon route in the end. The game launched everyone complained about the ui and lack of combat info, then it started to leak subscriptions super fast and one of the first things they added to stop the tide was a customizable UI and a combat parser, was too little too late then though and it went f2p not long afterwards
Oh come on, you can't be serious. SWTOR had far bigger, more influential factors that caused it to launch a F2P version. BTW, SWTOR still does not have add-ons, and it is highly profitable.
You don't need any of this crap that everyone wants
The game stands well enough alone without this stuff that you can easily find in other games. If you like these elements - go play the other games. Stop trying to justify changing how Poker is played because you personally prefer BlackJack. Otherwise, learn how to play Poker like everyone else.
There simply isn't an argument that is going to win over this very reasonable truth. You can get pissy all you want about "I want it this way." Well... again... your wants are no more justified than my wants. Its time game developers stop trying to please everyone, and just focus on building a good, solid game. They have done this. Allowing these sorts of mods to be made is going to screw ALL of that up. How do I know? Because the game is PvP heavy. These sorts of tools are going to change the game, drastically.
You don't need third person
You don't need first person
You don't need pvp
You don't need raiding
You don't need grouping
You don't need exploration
etc
You don't need any of this crap that everyone wants........But each of them will make the game better for some people
You're absolutely right - you don't need any of it. But the devs have built a game based off of those systems. You are welcome to enjoy the game as it is, or play something else that is more to your liking. Fortunately, the devs have already provided me with things I like, and excluded things I don't like. You obviously have different tastes. You don't have to play it. You can play any game that has what you want in it. What you're not going to do is make some pitiful defense about why a game should be more like what you want. Let the game be what it is and stop trying to change it. Either get on board, or go to another ship.
You don't have an argument. Let it go.
The devs also built the ui with addons in mind, as they announced lua support back in 2012 (month after it was announced) pretty much the exact same time as they officially announced the game
You're right - they did. And you know what? I can't change that. I'm not arguing that. What I am arguing is what the thread asked a question about:
"Will add-ons kill this game?"
Answer 1: If you're looking for an authentic TES MMO that can provide a different MMO than you're used to.... Yes, it will. If you're looking for just another POS MMO that comes out once every few months - you're probably trying to justify add-ons in the first place.
Answer 2: It will no longer be a TES game once these elements come into play - for reasons already stated. It will be just another MMO. And that's the worst kind of MMO to be if you're trying to provide an MMO game service that hopes to support itself off of a subscription model.
I am about to go to sleep, but before I leave I would like to share a quote from a ZeniMax Online developer in their official forums regarding the entire vision of their game:
" “Modern” and “immersive” are two key words I’ll concentrate on for this letter. To many people, they mean many different things. To us, it means removing a lot of the UI elements. Concentrating less on long narrative text and fine number-crunching math, and more on things like a visceral, active combat system, voice-over with believable writing and acting, player choice, etc. Players should be playing in the world-space, and not watching the UI. What you see and experience in the game versus the UI is key, much more so than math and text appearing everywhere. That’s not to say there won’t be elements in the game for people who like to min-max and get the most out of a certain build, hey that’s fun too, but we are going to lean far more on world immersion and active decision making. This is part of an Elder Scrolls title."
Now, after reflecting on the words above, I would like to ask a simple question: Does the following look like an Elder Scrolls title, holding true to their vision?
I am about to go to sleep, but before I leave I would like to share a quote from a ZeniMax Online developer in their official forums regarding the entire vision of their game:
" “Modern” and “immersive” are two key words I’ll concentrate on for this letter. To many people, they mean many different things. To us, it means removing a lot of the UI elements. Concentrating less on long narrative text and fine number-crunching math, and more on things like a visceral, active combat system, voice-over with believable writing and acting, player choice, etc. Players should be playing in the world-space, and not watching the UI. What you see and experience in the game versus the UI is key, much more so than math and text appearing everywhere. That’s not to say there won’t be elements in the game for people who like to min-max and get the most out of a certain build, hey that’s fun too, but we are going to lean far more on world immersion and active decision making. This is part of an Elder Scrolls title."
Now, after reflecting on the words above, I would like to ask a simple question: Does the following look like an Elder Scrolls title, holding true to their vision?
Nope.... and that's the problem with add-ons.
I think they said the game would have add-ons, because TES series is known well for mods. It would seem like a no-brainer. But I don't think they anticipated just how much of a game changer it will be in a competitive space such as an MMO with so much hinging on the idea of PvP. People defending it for any reason are just in complete denial.
If the devs want their vision achieved... they need to remove add-ons, or at least restrict them to prevent this sort of stuff.
"True, any class can be mana-based, but I fail to see how that makes it a moot point. Resource management is still as critical as ever. A player without resources will be severely impaired, and that is most definitely the best time to burst him down."
I'm not denying it has its uses but they are pretty limited/situational because for them to be completely out of both resources they have either done something wrong, or have just won a hard fight, or are about to lose a fight or are in the middle of a hard fight, if that fight is with you likely your resources are depleted too and if not you would know they would be easier than a "fresh" opponent anyway because of the situation. Also it requires you to be targeting them at the time to notice that they are low anyway
And I still stand by that not having the ability to desplay that info whether through an addon or not, is a bad idea and gimps abilities/roles, as long as you are targeting them or they are in your group I don't see the harm
"It is most definitely possible to block/interrupt without using the UI elements, but the add-ons trivialize this entire aspect of combat. Knowing exactly when an ability will go off instead of approximately knowing when it will go off makes blocking and interrupting far too easy to pull off."
What I'm saying is there's an option for the base ui that warns you whenever you can block or interrupt (and even tells you what to press) and from what I could tell from my very limited use of the option, it even warns you when to block (not sure about interrupt) enemies attacking you that you aren't even targeting (which the addon doesn't) at the time.
"Oh come on, you can't be serious. SWTOR had far bigger, more influential factors that caused it to launch a F2P version. BTW, SWTOR still does not have add-ons, and it is highly profitable."
I'm not denying that SWTOR had other issues (illum, soa etc), but one of THE most talked about and complained about was the ui and lack of target of target and lack of combat info. So while yes SWTOR still doesn't have addons ( and I suspect that's more an engine limitation than anything else), they did have to add the functionality that people wanted those addons for in the first place. It WAS too little too late for most people and it did HAVE to go f2p and merge servers. Yes f2p may have saved the day for that game, that doesn't change the fact that the limited ui and lack of combat info (amongst other things) contributed to it needing saving, if it didn't why did bioware feel the need to rush out a UI only update ASAP, rather than include it with content like most mmo's do?
TESO is releasing with a far more limited ui and with far more limited combat info than SWTOR did and the complaints will be all the louder for it if they didn't have addons to fill in the missing parts
I am about to go to sleep, but before I leave I would like to share a quote from a ZeniMax Online developer in their official forums regarding the entire vision of their game:
" “Modern” and “immersive” are two key words I’ll concentrate on for this letter. To many people, they mean many different things. To us, it means removing a lot of the UI elements. Concentrating less on long narrative text and fine number-crunching math, and more on things like a visceral, active combat system, voice-over with believable writing and acting, player choice, etc. Players should be playing in the world-space, and not watching the UI. What you see and experience in the game versus the UI is key, much more so than math and text appearing everywhere. That’s not to say there won’t be elements in the game for people who like to min-max and get the most out of a certain build, hey that’s fun too, but we are going to lean far more on world immersion and active decision making. This is part of an Elder Scrolls title."
Now, after reflecting on the words above, I would like to ask a simple question: Does the following look like an Elder Scrolls title, holding true to their vision?
Sounds like they will be going against why they're trying to make the game with allowing add-ons in the game. Just get rid of them all together I say.
The less UI the more immersive the game will feel.
Watch this video from a dev, where he talks about the UI. Video Link
They announced a fully modable UI through lua addons at the same time they officially announced the game back in 2012, so they really aren't going against anything at all, this was always the plan and is likely what enabled them to make such a limited UI in the first place
You don't have to use the addons, the advantages they give are small, PvP wont be even sided 99% of the time anyway and only the more hardcore guilds will have them as a requirement
Sounds like they will be going against why they're trying to make the game with allowing add-ons in the game. Just get rid of them all together I say.
The less UI the more immersive the game will feel.
Watch this video from a dev, where he talks about the UI. Video Link
They announced a fully modable UI through lua addons at the same time they officially announced the game back in 2012, so they really aren't going against anything at all, this was always the plan and is likely what enabled them to make such a limited UI in the first place
You don't have to use the addons, the advantages they give are small, PvP wont be even sided 99% of the time anyway and only the more hardcore guilds will have them as a requirement
Comments
You don't need numbers
You don't need combat text
You don't need DPS measurements
You don't need Defense measurements
You don't need any of this crap that everyone wants
The game stands well enough alone without this stuff that you can easily find in other games. If you like these elements - go play the other games. Stop trying to justify changing how Poker is played because you personally prefer BlackJack. Otherwise, learn how to play Poker like everyone else.
There simply isn't an argument that is going to win over this very reasonable truth. You can get pissy all you want about "I want it this way." Well... again... your wants are no more justified than my wants. Its time game developers stop trying to please everyone, and just focus on building a good, solid game. They have done this. Allowing these sorts of mods to be made is going to screw ALL of that up. How do I know? Because the game is PvP heavy. These sorts of tools are going to change the game, drastically.
I hope it won't be in the game. Gearscore or armor level was a pain in the ass as well and excluded players instead of making the community inclusive and helpful.
It doesn't matter how much stuff you try to get removed from the game. As the game ages, people will become more focused on efficiently getting stuff done, and elitism will show up. Removing Addons isn't going to stop people from dropping you if your in a high tier run with low tier gear.
You don't need third person
You don't need first person
You don't need pvp
You don't need raiding
You don't need grouping
You don't need exploration
etc
You don't need any of this crap that everyone wants........But each of them will make the game better for some people
The guy's being disengenoius with the poll. The vast majority of people in that thread are for UI cosmetic customization. Also, that thread is only accessible to a group of people from the forums. That's it. The poll is set up as a yes or no when the issue itself is more complicated than that.
How was I being disingenuous? I listed the poll (both of them including the addon free campaign one) the available options results and even said it was a small sample size, how the hell is that disingenuous?!
Because this 'drama' behind the whole addons thing isn't whether to have them or not. It's how far these addons go. It's obvious when you read the comment section of many people whom said the are for addons, but concerned with them going too far. You never acknowledged that and that's where you're being disingenuous about the support for addons.
I may not be able to see the poll, but that is what I have been seeing in the ones I can view in other areas.
Not a simple yes or no. The topic is to complex for that, but more along the lines of "yes with exceptions".
So in order to be genuine I have to go through that thread looking at each persons sentiment and give a ratio of who is happy with he addons we have now and those who want extra restriction? By not doing that I'm somehow being dishonest am I?
I suppose the other poll I mentioned that says people aren't even in favour of having some campaigns be addon free (which I personally would be fine with) was dishonest too?
I think you should actually think before accusing people of being dishonest, especially when there is no dishonesty there
Edit: just went through the entire thread and out of the 3 pages of comments there's a whole 2 comments by yes voters saying they should be restricted and one of them was actually fine with the current addons, so yes I am the one clearly being disingenuous by not mentioning the whole 2 posts that make that point /sarcasm
You're absolutely right - you don't need any of it. But the devs have built a game based off of those systems. You are welcome to enjoy the game as it is, or play something else that is more to your liking. Fortunately, the devs have already provided me with things I like, and excluded things I don't like. You obviously have different tastes. You don't have to play it. You can play any game that has what you want in it. What you're not going to do is make some pitiful defense about why a game should be more like what you want. Let the game be what it is and stop trying to change it. Either get on board, or go to another ship.
You don't have an argument. Let it go.
How about this idea... Seems like it could easily address some of the issues people are having with various parts of the pvp metagame.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/406409/A-proposal-for-pvp-servers-.html
You're talking about what is not needed vs something that is already in the game. If it was needed - the devs would have put it in the game. If it wasn't needed, then it wasn't needed.
Obviously, no one is going to reserve a spot for someone with tier 1 gear when Tier 3 is needed. We aren't talking about that. Tier 3 Gear will produce higher numbers - this is a no brainer and is expected. The issue with having numbers show up has nothing to do with that. It has to do with how one builds their character. The game has a million different ways for you to build whatever kind of character you want. The minute people can start looking at the numbers and start producing the spread-sheet game, is the minute no one is allowed to play what they want to play.
You're no longer allowed to play the Templar that uses Bows, Light armor, and enjoys the ability to be a Vampire. You're now reduced to being the Templar that uses Restoration Staff, Heavy Armor, and must be a Werewolf. Not because you personally find it interesting to play, but because the hierarchy of elitism says you can't play without the cookie-cutter build.
Having a specific tier of equipment is a different matter that has nothing to do with add-ons. I can't argue against that sort of elitism, because it is obviously already built into the game. But I sure as hell can argue against something that ISN'T in the game. Reduce the outlets for one to be Elitist in, and you will have fewer who fall under its banner of un-reason.
The biggest issue of all actually has to do with the nature of Cyrodil and how closely tied PvP is to the economy. When you start getting people who aren't even playing the game, but instead are playing the numbers... you suddenly have a system where if you aren't on that page... you simply don't matter.
I don't like the idea of people having sway over how I play a game the devs originally designed it to be played. If the devs made it so - so be it. I would either find a way to enjoy it... or move to something else - which is often the case. This is the exact same prospect I provide anyone else. Either like what the devs have made... or find something else to play. It isn't that hard.
All classes are mana based so that point is somewhat moot and even being able to see they are oom doesn't mean they can't defend no matter what class, and like I say that should be a standard part of the UI as not being able to tell resource levels of other players completely gimps certain roles/'abilities
The buffs are represented by different effects around the target frame, some make the edge glow, some put extra edges around the frame, some make the red bit look like its cracked, some make the red bit purple etc
Interrupts are easy if you look at your target and as the game is aim based that's where you will be looking, because each cast time spell has an obvious "wind up" animation. If that's not obvious enough there's an option you can toggle on for "combat hints" (I think it was called) that tells you exactly when to interrupt or block and even tells you what to press to do it
I remember another mmo based on a single player series and before that game launched the same argument about combat info, ui and addons was hashed out over and over and over again, People saying that because of single player games didn't need all this info it wouldn't be needed in the mmo and they went the no-addon route in the end. The game launched everyone complained about the ui and lack of combat info, then it started to leak subscriptions super fast and one of the first things they added to stop the tide was a customizable UI and a combat parser, was too little too late then though and it went f2p not long afterwards
The devs also built the ui with addons in mind, as they announced lua support back in 2012 (month after it was announced) pretty much the exact same time as they officially announced the game
You're right - they did. And you know what? I can't change that. I'm not arguing that. What I am arguing is what the thread asked a question about:
"Will add-ons kill this game?"
Answer 1: If you're looking for an authentic TES MMO that can provide a different MMO than you're used to.... Yes, it will. If you're looking for just another POS MMO that comes out once every few months - you're probably trying to justify add-ons in the first place.
Answer 2: It will no longer be a TES game once these elements come into play - for reasons already stated. It will be just another MMO. And that's the worst kind of MMO to be if you're trying to provide an MMO game service that hopes to support itself off of a subscription model.
I am about to go to sleep, but before I leave I would like to share a quote from a ZeniMax Online developer in their official forums regarding the entire vision of their game:
" “Modern” and “immersive” are two key words I’ll concentrate on for this letter. To many people, they mean many different things. To us, it means removing a lot of the UI elements. Concentrating less on long narrative text and fine number-crunching math, and more on things like a visceral, active combat system, voice-over with believable writing and acting, player choice, etc. Players should be playing in the world-space, and not watching the UI.
What you see and experience in the game versus the UI is key, much more so than math and text appearing everywhere. That’s not to say there won’t be elements in the game for people who like to min-max and get the most out of a certain build, hey that’s fun too, but we are going to lean far more on world immersion and active decision making. This is part of an Elder Scrolls title."
Now, after reflecting on the words above, I would like to ask a simple question: Does the following look like an Elder Scrolls title, holding true to their vision?
Nope.... and that's the problem with add-ons.
I think they said the game would have add-ons, because TES series is known well for mods. It would seem like a no-brainer. But I don't think they anticipated just how much of a game changer it will be in a competitive space such as an MMO with so much hinging on the idea of PvP. People defending it for any reason are just in complete denial.
If the devs want their vision achieved... they need to remove add-ons, or at least restrict them to prevent this sort of stuff.
"True, any class can be mana-based, but I fail to see how that makes it a moot point. Resource management is still as critical as ever. A player without resources will be severely impaired, and that is most definitely the best time to burst him down."
I'm not denying it has its uses but they are pretty limited/situational because for them to be completely out of both resources they have either done something wrong, or have just won a hard fight, or are about to lose a fight or are in the middle of a hard fight, if that fight is with you likely your resources are depleted too and if not you would know they would be easier than a "fresh" opponent anyway because of the situation. Also it requires you to be targeting them at the time to notice that they are low anyway
And I still stand by that not having the ability to desplay that info whether through an addon or not, is a bad idea and gimps abilities/roles, as long as you are targeting them or they are in your group I don't see the harm
"It is most definitely possible to block/interrupt without using the UI elements, but the add-ons trivialize this entire aspect of combat. Knowing exactly when an ability will go off instead of approximately knowing when it will go off makes blocking and interrupting far too easy to pull off."
What I'm saying is there's an option for the base ui that warns you whenever you can block or interrupt (and even tells you what to press) and from what I could tell from my very limited use of the option, it even warns you when to block (not sure about interrupt) enemies attacking you that you aren't even targeting (which the addon doesn't) at the time.
"Oh come on, you can't be serious. SWTOR had far bigger, more influential factors that caused it to launch a F2P version. BTW, SWTOR still does not have add-ons, and it is highly profitable."
I'm not denying that SWTOR had other issues (illum, soa etc), but one of THE most talked about and complained about was the ui and lack of target of target and lack of combat info. So while yes SWTOR still doesn't have addons ( and I suspect that's more an engine limitation than anything else), they did have to add the functionality that people wanted those addons for in the first place. It WAS too little too late for most people and it did HAVE to go f2p and merge servers. Yes f2p may have saved the day for that game, that doesn't change the fact that the limited ui and lack of combat info (amongst other things) contributed to it needing saving, if it didn't why did bioware feel the need to rush out a UI only update ASAP, rather than include it with content like most mmo's do?
TESO is releasing with a far more limited ui and with far more limited combat info than SWTOR did and the complaints will be all the louder for it if they didn't have addons to fill in the missing parts
How about a quote from the game director himself?
As a quick question to end our interview, I asked about the robust LUA system that will allow players to jump in with their mods to change the UI of the game. Devs can be very wary of allowing a lot of manipulation with the game. With ESO so focused on receiving information within the game world I wondered if there were concerns about players watching bars fluctuate rather than the world itself.
"If you like the game, you want to do it with this stuff, that's fine. I've got no problem with that.”
Sounds like they will be going against their own philosophy by adding add-ons into ESO.
The less GUI the more immersive the game will feel.
Watch this video from a dev, where he talks about the UI.
Video Link
Just get rid of them all together I say. /endtopic
They announced a fully modable UI through lua addons at the same time they officially announced the game back in 2012, so they really aren't going against anything at all, this was always the plan and is likely what enabled them to make such a limited UI in the first place
You don't have to use the addons, the advantages they give are small, PvP wont be even sided 99% of the time anyway and only the more hardcore guilds will have them as a requirement
How do you know the advantages are small?