Looking for stuff is not difficult, just tedious .. so no i am not turning it off. They should have a difficulty option for combat though, because i like challenging combat.
Within the context of the quest then it just makes no sense. The NPC tells you he lost his underpants and need you to find them. Then the game puts a big "X" on the map showing you where you can find them. What's the point of the quest, to make me walk to an X and back? The best part is they give XP and loot for doing this pointless chore.
I wish game makers would just 86 these types of quests once and for all.
The problem is that the quest text may not give you an idea of where to go. If all of the quests were written such that quest markers aren't needed, that would be great, but they aren't all written that way.
One of the things that made older games great was the drop loot on death. Not because you can loot other players but when your char dies and you stand to lose nothing what happenes... You log out.
Yea thats it now you can spend hours subconsciencely hating the game and posting how bad the game is. Whre as if you needed to go back and loot your body and were successfull you probly wont log out at that moment. You're more likly to log out after a succesful event or better yet with the feeling of WIN!
Thats a big deal....
Making it so when a player ends a game session and being sure its on good terms is more important to the health of a game then the actual game play. I mean it how many hours have you spent at work thinking of what your are going to be doing in game when you get home/off work. In most cases its more time spent then in game.... basement dweleers withstanding.
fill free to strip yourself of all your gear until you return to the spot where you died.
personlly i hated that mechanic it made no sence in any way or form, i didnt find running the gauntlet of things that KILLED you in full gear just so you could get said gear back, all that appealing, in fact i found it annoying as hell.
F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used to Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.
Giving us the option doesn't create the same fear of consequences as having only 1 option. People will always choose the path of least resistance.
Why not? You choose the PD option, and then you cannot turn it off ..
And what do you care about others? I don't think you should force your preference on others, particularly when that has NOTHING to with your own death penalty. D2 & D3 has PD option .. how is that not create the same fear if you choose it?
An option is the way to go.
D2 & D3 where not MMOs (please lets not argue about that they where not) they where online lobby based mission with no PvP for said missions, basicly single player games with a nifty CO-OP system.
and single player games with perma death are not the same thing as MMOs with perma death.
F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used to Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.
There is a minority of gamers that enjoy harsh penalties because it gives them a sense of difficulty. Make it optional, an even a smaller minority would actually use it. So, why bother with the penalty? If there is going to be a harsh penalty, it needs to be across the board or not at all.
I don't mind death penalties, however a harsh penalty for the sake of "making the game more difficult" is a flawed approach to difficulty. I've always been a fan of difficulty slider bars for quests and dungeons.
Raquelis in various games Played: Everything Playing: Nioh 2, Civ6 Wants: The World Anticipating:Everquest NextCrowfall, Pantheon, Elden Ring
I play MMOs with others. Why would I gimp myself, or play by a different set of rules than other players?
No, I would not turn off quest markers. No, I would not self-impose a perma-death penalty. Especially if no on else is (or very few are) doing the same.
I want to play by the same rules as everyone else. This question is similar in scope to me as, "Would you NOT use weapons or spells in an MMO?"
I think I saw someone mention separate servers which I think would work.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I play MMOs with others. Why would I gimp myself, or play by a different set of rules than other players?
No, I would not turn off quest markers. No, I would not self-impose a perma-death penalty. Especially if no on else is (or very few are) doing the same.
I want to play by the same rules as everyone else. This question is similar in scope to me as, "Would you NOT use weapons or spells in an MMO?"
I think I saw someone mention separate servers which I think would work.
That's the heart of the matter in my view, I want to force everyone who is on the server/world/realm with me to abide by the same rules, no matter what they are. Choice is not an option. (yeah, I'm a jerk like that)
I don't mind if there are alternate rules servers, but otherwise let's all exist in the same level playing field, accepting what the rules are, whether there is permadeath, or other penalties.
The OP's question reminds me of when I played single player games, they frequently had difficulty sliders, ranging from easy to insane.
I almost always played the game on "normal", because what is the point of intentionally gimping your character by giving him less health, exp, ammo, etc while conversely increasing NPC hp's, damage frequency etc?
Sure, perhaps for some folks beig able to say you completed the game in insane mode was rewarding, but it wasn't for me, I just wanted to complete the story and move on.
Once in a rare while I would replay a title on the next level up, and only once do I ever recall playing any game on its hardest mode, (might have been the original Half-life) because it was just that fun.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Originally posted by AlBQuirky I play MMOs with others. Why would I gimp myself, or play by a different set of rules than other players?No, I would not turn off quest markers. No, I would not self-impose a perma-death penalty. Especially if no on else is (or very few are) doing the same.I want to play by the same rules as everyone else. This question is similar in scope to me as, "Would you NOT use weapons or spells in an MMO?"I think I saw someone mention separate servers which I think would work.
Optional death penalty only works if it is a server setting, and preferably one where that server have a slightly better droprate of good stuff.
MMO players do tend to like Risk/reward things and if there is no reward then perma death just wouldn't work. Then again maybe if the perma death thing also came with a huge buff in magic find it might still work.
Agreed.. I have said for years that games should have a variety of servers other then simple PvE and PvP.. I would like some special servers too where DP's are more severe with increase reward,, I would also like to see servers with longer leveling curves, with increased rewards.. All it would take is some tweaking of the codes.. We could have a dozen or more different servers if the devs put their minds to it..
I realize I'm in the minority here, but I usually create self-imposed restrictions for my PVP characters, specifically my PK or RPK characters.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Giving us the option doesn't create the same fear of consequences as having only 1 option. People will always choose the path of least resistance.
Why not? You choose the PD option, and then you cannot turn it off ..
And what do you care about others? I don't think you should force your preference on others, particularly when that has NOTHING to with your own death penalty. D2 & D3 has PD option .. how is that not create the same fear if you choose it?
An option is the way to go.
D2 & D3 where not MMOs (please lets not argue about that they where not) they where online lobby based mission with no PvP for said missions, basicly single player games with a nifty CO-OP system.
and single player games with perma death are not the same thing as MMOs with perma death.
They are close enough. Lots of MMO players play D2 & D3. They are about small group co-op dungeon runs from a lobby which is pretty much a majority of end-game activity in many pve MMOs.
I don't see why the option cannot be used in a MMO.
All kind of penalties and difficulties should be server wide. MMOs are competitive in some ways, if it wasn't for some kind of competition people would just play single player games. So why would anyone put himself in a disadvantage by choice.
Originally posted by jazz.be All kind of penalties and difficulties should be server wide. MMOs are competitive in some ways, if it wasn't for some kind of competition people would just play single player games. So why would anyone put himself in a disadvantage by choice.
Because in pve there is no "disadvantage"? If you look at it as a race, it is not a pure pve game.
And i don't play MMO for the competition, i play it exactly like a SP game for the IP, and gameplay.
The whole premise of a role playing world is you have some immersion and identity with the npc's and other players.
You can't one day say if i die it is for good ,then the next day i die it is fake,it is just dumb.
When i see a creature in a game world,i like to ALWAYS identify it as that creature not Behemoth version 1 or Behemoth version 2 or Behemoth easy mode,Behemoth Hard mode,it is again dumb and LAZY game design.
You want a harder fight than say EASY mode Ifrit,then make another fight,go fight another creature that is harder,simple as that.
This analogy would be like Team Canada before entering it's game with Sweden got to choose what mode they would play and they picked EASY mode Sweden.It is the anti immersion tool.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
The whole premise of a role playing world is you have some immersion and identity with the npc's and other players.
You can't one day say if i die it is for good ,then the next day i die it is fake,it is just dumb.
When i see a creature in a game world,i like to ALWAYS identify it as that creature not Behemoth version 1 or Behemoth version 2 or Behemoth easy mode,Behemoth Hard mode,it is again dumb and LAZY game design.
You want a harder fight than say EASY mode Ifrit,then make another fight,go fight another creature that is harder,simple as that.
This analogy would be like Team Canada before entering it's game with Sweden got to choose what mode they would play and they picked EASY mode Sweden.It is the anti immersion tool.
Immersion is not that important compared to gameplay and fun .. otherwise, LFD and difficulty sliders would not be so popular.
So what if there is a bheemoth version 1, 2 and 3. It is used in Diablo 1,2 and 3 with great success. It is used in WOW raiding with great success. Difficulty option is used in all SP games with great success.
And no ... it would not be like canada choosing easy sweden ... since difficulty slider only applies to pve games. And yes, i would be like going into Dishonored, and choose easy, normal or hard. So what is the problem?
I play MMOs with others. Why would I gimp myself, or play by a different set of rules than other players?
No, I would not turn off quest markers. No, I would not self-impose a perma-death penalty. Especially if no on else is (or very few are) doing the same.
I want to play by the same rules as everyone else. This question is similar in scope to me as, "Would you NOT use weapons or spells in an MMO?"
I think I saw someone mention separate servers which I think would work.
That's the heart of the matter in my view, I want to force everyone who is on the server/world/realm with me to abide by the same rules, no matter what they are. Choice is not an option. (yeah, I'm a jerk like that)
I don't mind if there are alternate rules servers, but otherwise let's all exist in the same level playing field, accepting what the rules are, whether there is permadeath, or other penalties.
The OP's question reminds me of when I played single player games, they frequently had difficulty sliders, ranging from easy to insane.
I almost always played the game on "normal", because what is the point of intentionally gimping your character by giving him less health, exp, ammo, etc while conversely increasing NPC hp's, damage frequency etc?
Sure, perhaps for some folks beig able to say you completed the game in insane mode was rewarding, but it wasn't for me, I just wanted to complete the story and move on.
Once in a rare while I would replay a title on the next level up, and only once do I ever recall playing any game on its hardest mode, (might have been the original Half-life) because it was just that fun.
City of Heroes had difficulty sliders so that you would face harder and more numerous mobs.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Through exploring I will find quests and quest objectives. Maybe I'll go real old school and keep a notebook by the computer like I used to and you know.... write things down like it's the 15th century.
And that is tedious and easy for me. We don't live in the 15th century. Now if the computer would write down stuff in 15th century hand writing, mark it on the map and PRETEND we are in the 15th century, i am all for it.
I prefer to spend my time in gameplay more fun (to me).
That's the heart of the matter in my view, I want to force everyone who is on the server/world/realm with me to abide by the same rules, no matter what they are. Choice is not an option. (yeah, I'm a jerk like that)
City of Heroes had difficulty sliders so that you would face harder and more numerous mobs.
To some extent, those who want to force their preferences on others are going to lose out because from a dev perspective, preferences are not uniform, and more options can serve a bigger audience.
There is no reason why Kyleran's preference is more important than others ... and the only way not to pick sides is to put in options.
Originally posted by Loktofeit I realize I'm in the minority here, but I usually create self-imposed restrictions for my PVP characters, specifically my PK or RPK characters.
Just curious... What kinds of restrictions do you impose?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
The whole premise of a role playing world is you have some immersion and identity with the npc's and other players.
You can't one day say if i die it is for good ,then the next day i die it is fake,it is just dumb.
When i see a creature in a game world,i like to ALWAYS identify it as that creature not Behemoth version 1 or Behemoth version 2 or Behemoth easy mode,Behemoth Hard mode,it is again dumb and LAZY game design.
You want a harder fight than say EASY mode Ifrit,then make another fight,go fight another creature that is harder,simple as that.
This analogy would be like Team Canada before entering it's game with Sweden got to choose what mode they would play and they picked EASY mode Sweden.It is the anti immersion tool.
Yeah, we often forget that some people have a very limited imagination when it comes to role playing and just can's suspend their disbelief as needed. They need rigid, themepark worlds because otherwise they lose immersion.
Now I do not usually have this problem and get immersed at the drop of a hat. As such I have no problems switching modes and difficulties since I simply adjust my immersion to fit the new situation and keep on playing as before. As such I will generally push my difficulty up till it it becomes challenging and actually like handicapping myself to vary the challenge. It is the only way I can keep my mind flexible in a grind-heavy genre.
Personally, I think that if Team Canada got to choose a difficulty mode for the finals, they would have chosen to go after Immortal level Sweden and beat them just to prove how awesome Canadians are.
I am a fairly competitive player - why would I gimp myself in a multiplayer game of any sort? This is exactly the same as the thing with Dungeon Finder, which is a pretty usual modern themepark feature a lot of people dislike. In theory you could avoid using it, but nobody will; not because they would prefer for the feature to not exist, but because there's not sense in gimping oneself.
A feature like this needs to be forced on everybody for it to work, in my opinion.
I wouldn't use an optional harsh death penalty either, unless there was some benefit beyond just being mean to yourself.
A death penalty slider could work really well. Tie the players risk to his rewards. Choose no penalty for losing and you receive no reward for winning. Choose max penalty for losing and get the best rewards if you win.
This would probably have the best chance at success for getting players to use it. There are other things that could come into play as well. In TSW, you have to do a corpse run to get your body back, with the option to respawn at the death point on the map. There is at least one quest that you cannot complete unless you are dead. There are things that can only be seen and things that can only be completed while doing a corpse run. It was interesting, and made the corpse runs seem a little more purposeful rather than just a way to lengthen game play.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Comments
The problem is that the quest text may not give you an idea of where to go. If all of the quests were written such that quest markers aren't needed, that would be great, but they aren't all written that way.
fill free to strip yourself of all your gear until you return to the spot where you died.
personlly i hated that mechanic it made no sence in any way or form, i didnt find running the gauntlet of things that KILLED you in full gear just so you could get said gear back, all that appealing, in fact i found it annoying as hell.
F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used to
Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.
D2 & D3 where not MMOs (please lets not argue about that they where not) they where online lobby based mission with no PvP for said missions, basicly single player games with a nifty CO-OP system.
and single player games with perma death are not the same thing as MMOs with perma death.
F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used to
Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.
There is a minority of gamers that enjoy harsh penalties because it gives them a sense of difficulty. Make it optional, an even a smaller minority would actually use it. So, why bother with the penalty? If there is going to be a harsh penalty, it needs to be across the board or not at all.
I don't mind death penalties, however a harsh penalty for the sake of "making the game more difficult" is a flawed approach to difficulty. I've always been a fan of difficulty slider bars for quests and dungeons.
Raquelis in various games
Played: Everything
Playing: Nioh 2, Civ6
Wants: The World
Anticipating: Everquest Next Crowfall, Pantheon, Elden Ring
I play MMOs with others. Why would I gimp myself, or play by a different set of rules than other players?
No, I would not turn off quest markers. No, I would not self-impose a perma-death penalty. Especially if no on else is (or very few are) doing the same.
I want to play by the same rules as everyone else. This question is similar in scope to me as, "Would you NOT use weapons or spells in an MMO?"
I think I saw someone mention separate servers which I think would work.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
That's the heart of the matter in my view, I want to force everyone who is on the server/world/realm with me to abide by the same rules, no matter what they are. Choice is not an option. (yeah, I'm a jerk like that)
I don't mind if there are alternate rules servers, but otherwise let's all exist in the same level playing field, accepting what the rules are, whether there is permadeath, or other penalties.
The OP's question reminds me of when I played single player games, they frequently had difficulty sliders, ranging from easy to insane.
I almost always played the game on "normal", because what is the point of intentionally gimping your character by giving him less health, exp, ammo, etc while conversely increasing NPC hp's, damage frequency etc?
Sure, perhaps for some folks beig able to say you completed the game in insane mode was rewarding, but it wasn't for me, I just wanted to complete the story and move on.
Once in a rare while I would replay a title on the next level up, and only once do I ever recall playing any game on its hardest mode, (might have been the original Half-life) because it was just that fun.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Agreed.. I have said for years that games should have a variety of servers other then simple PvE and PvP.. I would like some special servers too where DP's are more severe with increase reward,, I would also like to see servers with longer leveling curves, with increased rewards.. All it would take is some tweaking of the codes.. We could have a dozen or more different servers if the devs put their minds to it..
I realize I'm in the minority here, but I usually create self-imposed restrictions for my PVP characters, specifically my PK or RPK characters.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Player options for these kinds of things don't make sense. Different servers with different rules do, though.
Maybe if the optional difficulty increased your experience rate or gave you better loot tables? I don't know
They are close enough. Lots of MMO players play D2 & D3. They are about small group co-op dungeon runs from a lobby which is pretty much a majority of end-game activity in many pve MMOs.
I don't see why the option cannot be used in a MMO.
Because it is more fun for you? If not, don't complain about lack of options in MMOs.
If you like challenge, are you going to do the easy dungeons just not to "gimp" yourself?
Because in pve there is no "disadvantage"? If you look at it as a race, it is not a pure pve game.
And i don't play MMO for the competition, i play it exactly like a SP game for the IP, and gameplay.
The whole premise of a role playing world is you have some immersion and identity with the npc's and other players.
You can't one day say if i die it is for good ,then the next day i die it is fake,it is just dumb.
When i see a creature in a game world,i like to ALWAYS identify it as that creature not Behemoth version 1 or Behemoth version 2 or Behemoth easy mode,Behemoth Hard mode,it is again dumb and LAZY game design.
You want a harder fight than say EASY mode Ifrit,then make another fight,go fight another creature that is harder,simple as that.
This analogy would be like Team Canada before entering it's game with Sweden got to choose what mode they would play and they picked EASY mode Sweden.It is the anti immersion tool.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
As an option? No.
As a worthwhile rewarded option? Yes.
I see no point in causing myself frustration if the reward for success is negligible.
"If you're going to act like a noob, I'll treat you like one." -Caskio
Adventurers wear fancy pants!!!
Immersion is not that important compared to gameplay and fun .. otherwise, LFD and difficulty sliders would not be so popular.
So what if there is a bheemoth version 1, 2 and 3. It is used in Diablo 1,2 and 3 with great success. It is used in WOW raiding with great success. Difficulty option is used in all SP games with great success.
And no ... it would not be like canada choosing easy sweden ... since difficulty slider only applies to pve games. And yes, i would be like going into Dishonored, and choose easy, normal or hard. So what is the problem?
City of Heroes had difficulty sliders so that you would face harder and more numerous mobs.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
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Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
And that is tedious and easy for me. We don't live in the 15th century. Now if the computer would write down stuff in 15th century hand writing, mark it on the map and PRETEND we are in the 15th century, i am all for it.
I prefer to spend my time in gameplay more fun (to me).
To some extent, those who want to force their preferences on others are going to lose out because from a dev perspective, preferences are not uniform, and more options can serve a bigger audience.
There is no reason why Kyleran's preference is more important than others ... and the only way not to pick sides is to put in options.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Yeah, we often forget that some people have a very limited imagination when it comes to role playing and just can's suspend their disbelief as needed. They need rigid, themepark worlds because otherwise they lose immersion.
Now I do not usually have this problem and get immersed at the drop of a hat.
As such I have no problems switching modes and difficulties since I simply adjust my immersion to fit the new situation and keep on playing as before. As such I will generally push my difficulty up till it it becomes challenging and actually like handicapping myself to vary the challenge. It is the only way I can keep my mind flexible in a grind-heavy genre.
Personally, I think that if Team Canada got to choose a difficulty mode for the finals, they would have chosen to go after Immortal level Sweden and beat them just to prove how awesome Canadians are.
I am a fairly competitive player - why would I gimp myself in a multiplayer game of any sort? This is exactly the same as the thing with Dungeon Finder, which is a pretty usual modern themepark feature a lot of people dislike. In theory you could avoid using it, but nobody will; not because they would prefer for the feature to not exist, but because there's not sense in gimping oneself.
A feature like this needs to be forced on everybody for it to work, in my opinion.
The Weekly Wizardry blog
This would probably have the best chance at success for getting players to use it. There are other things that could come into play as well. In TSW, you have to do a corpse run to get your body back, with the option to respawn at the death point on the map. There is at least one quest that you cannot complete unless you are dead. There are things that can only be seen and things that can only be completed while doing a corpse run. It was interesting, and made the corpse runs seem a little more purposeful rather than just a way to lengthen game play.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.