Originally posted by MuntzCombat-wise not much but will both will typically have cookie cutter builds with a predictable strategy that is published on a website along with how to counter it. Even a great AI will be as predictable as the typical PvP player.
I hope you are trolling because your opinion is completely absurd.
Not really. Go to any game forum with a PvP section. There will be build discussion and how to play that build. There will be questions on how to defeat a certain type of build. There are some players that can think and work outside the box but really not that many. The question was "fighting a player" I took that to mean the typical PvP player.
People aren't robots. While they might use the same general strategy they won't use the same exact strategy and there is no single strategy even in say arena. Players react to what the other side does, mob AI just follows its scripts. Players constantly go off script. You fight the same person 10 times and most likely all 10 fights will go differently. You watch some high end arena play and you see something different every game. They might start the same but the results decide what the next step is.
Players are in no way shape or form close to AI in predictability so I fully stand by my statement.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
Originally posted by McJer84 The correct answer to your questions is predictable actions. NPCs will react in a fixed way to any given thing as where a player will adapt and innovate.
Too bad 'innovate' often means 'loses fair fight, brings high level friends to help win next fight'.
The reason people win against AI now is because that is how the AI is designed. The players are supposed to win. Certainly they may have to go through a specific sequence, solve the combat-dance puzzle, but AI is made to be beaten. Even in games like Dark Souls, there is meant to be a winner, and that winner is meant to be the player.
We are already to the point where the AI in network games must be gimped in order to allow players to win. This wasn't always the case. In the past, the AI had to cheat just to break even. As in break the rules cheat, not just have inflated hit points and the like. It's not like this any longer. Reduction of network latency, AI complexity and computing power have all well surpassed what is necessary to build an AI that can win the simplistic fights available in video games.
People seem to forget that computer AI are created by people. If someone was set a task to create an AI with the purpose of defeating any and all human competitors in a fair fight, that is exactly what would happen. Even there the AI would have to be gimped to account for the 100 millisecond fastest possible human reaction time* or the fights wouldn't be anywhere close to fair. You know what the human response would be? Exactly what @Madimorga said, stack the odds with more players versus the AI.
* Time it takes you and any other human to pull your finger off of a hot stove.
**
Wow. I went way off topic. Another post up there answered the question though. The AI in a game exists for the player to win, because it's a game. The idea is to offer enough challenge to be fun, without being a d!ck about it.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
PvE is for pure fun, entertainment that allows you to act out fantasies of grandeur. better AI allows a better story to be told and acted out. unless you want real people to take the place of all npc's in a game, the cost and logistics of it would just be crazy. makes me laugh just thinking about a million (or more?) needed for npc's in WoW alone. there would be no job crisis ever again lol
PvP is for sport, still fun and entertaining. but its an ego stroke, when you beat someone your better than that person for one sec, till you get killed in turn.
Why would a person ask for great AI to combat, but refuse to engage in combat with a player?
I'm no psychologist, so could some one please explain this mindset?
You mean AI where enemies from a level 90 zone go to a starting area and kill all the people in that starting area? Or AI that walks up behind you while you're selling stuff to a vendor an takes 5 or 6 shots before you can even turn around to see wtf is going on? I don't know.
Seriously, though, the single biggest thing is respecting someone's gaming experience. They're just doing their own thing trying to level up. Yada, yada. It's not that they WON'T engage other players, it's just they don't go out of their way to engage other players, or at least not the players who appear to be pre-occupied with something else. It's the "You do you, I'll do me." mentality.
Done and Done without inserting personal preference and opinion....yet.
I don't like PvP because of the people I meet in PvP. If you're not the best, you're the worst and there are a lot of people who will make sure that you know you are the worst. So I just stay out of it. If I spent the time, I'm sure I could be competitive, but I just don't want to wade through the jerks to get to the fun. PvE players seem to have a higher tolerance for screwing up.
I am not saying one is better than the other, nor am I saying that PvP players are better than PvE players, or vice versa. It's a preference thing.
While we are on the topic, not all PvE encounters are scripted. I will say that is one thing Tera did very well, bosses have a set of actions they can do and have no cooldown on those abilities. You really did have to react to what the boss was doing, not just memorize the order of steps.
I can fly higher than an aeroplane. And I have the voice of a thousand hurricanes. Hurt - Wars
Originally posted by MuntzCombat-wise not much but will both will typically have cookie cutter builds with a predictable strategy that is published on a website along with how to counter it. Even a great AI will be as predictable as the typical PvP player.
I hope you are trolling because your opinion is completely absurd.
Not really. Go to any game forum with a PvP section. There will be build discussion and how to play that build. There will be questions on how to defeat a certain type of build. There are some players that can think and work outside the box but really not that many. The question was "fighting a player" I took that to mean the typical PvP player.
People aren't robots. While they might use the same general strategy they won't use the same exact strategy and there is no single strategy even in say arena. Players react to what the other side does, mob AI just follows its scripts. Players constantly go off script. You fight the same person 10 times and most likely all 10 fights will go differently. You watch some high end arena play and you see something different every game. They might start the same but the results decide what the next step is.
Players are in no way shape or form close to AI in predictability so I fully stand by my statement.
As to PvP players I don't think I'm disagreeing with you especially when you say "high end" we must differ in how many of those are encountered in a game. I only have empirical data.
We certainly differ what a "great AI" could do. A computer AI does not have to be so linearly predictable. The AI can process more variables and react much faster then a human player. Typically the AI is dumbed down so it's easier. The question says "great AI" Most mobs do not even come close to having a great AI.
For other games like RPGs, WoW or Diablo for example; it becomes more of a euphoric sensation. Fighting against AI is generally easy to understand, more simplistic, and therefor more accessible. These games also give the player a feeling of 'hey, you're a total badass!', which gets reinforced constantly throughout the game, usually as reward for doing little else than playing the game. This has to do w/ Skinner-Box design, and how it places people in a self-perpetuating loot of feeling good for chasing gear, to chase more gear, to feel better. Playing against other players (and not AI), runs counter to this. As it rewards skill / intelligence, over playtime & commitment. As such, most players do not want to PvP for their loot, but instead would rather quest / raid for it.
Mmh... I'm getting an undertone of smugness with a heavy touch of condescension.
Have you considered that, perhaps people like playing against AI, because of the lack of pressure from competition and better immersion. AI, good AI, supports immersion. It is the same thing a GM does in a tabletop RPG: The objective is to play with the players, not against them. Similarly, a good AI in a game is not meant to beat the player, but to offer a challenging opponent - likely mimicking a human player in the process.
There's also the aspect that our brain loves learning new patterns and if AI should also provide patterns to learn. Tank, spank and heal - the most successful AIs might not be the smartest ones.
Using Skinner box to explain anything is the same as playing the piano with oven mittens on: it is very crude and clumsy. Also makes anyone who knows even a little bit of music cringe and cover their ears.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Actually if developers tried they could develop a very good AI which would probably own 99,99 % of the player base. PvP players are just a little too convinced of their capabilities. At least some developers could, most probably not. Anyway the purpose of AI is not to win but to loose, maybe giving you some challenge but in the end it should loose.
So it's the psychological part. And of course the human nature. But I am really not an expert on that topic. Probably Freud (or more likely one of his successors) could explain to you why humans are like they are and feel like they do. It's very complex.
I'm a PvP player primarily, but I can think of a number of reasons:
1) AI will not exploit game mechanics or swarm towards FOTM builds / classes.
2) AI will not tea bag you, /spit on you or send you rude tells after a fight.
3) AI works within confines of rules that can be easily adapted to as a player. Players are very unpredictable.
4) AI will stick to realistic levels of communication. A mob might call for help in a 20 m radius, but a player can call for help from an entire zone, or anywhere on the world, and annoy you with CC until backup arrives.
Just a few reasons. Generally its because AI sticks to the rules, players do not. I like the unpredictability though, and trying to guess how a player will react.
The user and all related content has been deleted.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
Actually if developers tried they could develop a very good AI which would probably own 99,99 % of the player base. PvP players are just a little too convinced of their capabilities. At least some developers could, most probably not. Anyway the purpose of AI is not to win but to loose, maybe giving you some challenge but in the end it should loose.
So it's the psychological part. And of course the human nature. But I am really not an expert on that topic. Probably Freud (or more likely one of his successors) could explain to you why humans are like they are and feel like they do. It's very complex.
Of course, you can get bot programs in WoW that can demolish other players in PvP because they can react perfectly with CC and interrupts to every single thing they do. Creating an AI that can beat players simply by perfectly countering everything they do with unnatural reflexes isn't particularly great AI though.
Players don't want to play against a supercomputer with lightning fast reflexes. They want AI that represents some sort of realism in terms of how a creature would react. Its obviously a balancing act between challenge and frustration though, it is a game after all.
Originally posted by Anthur Imo it's definately not the combat.
Actually if developers tried they could develop a very good AI which would probably own 99,99 % of the player base. PvP players are just a little too convinced of their capabilities. At least some developers could, most probably not. Anyway the purpose of AI is not to win but to loose, maybe giving you some challenge but in the end it should loose.
So it's the psychological part. And of course the human nature. But I am really not an expert on that topic. Probably Freud (or more likely one of his successors) could explain to you why humans are like they are and feel like they do. It's very complex.
I think you overestimate the quality of the developers of MMORPG. It is very difficult to create an AI that can defeat a competent player at anything without it cheating in some way. Take RTS as an example, the AI in those cheat and players still can easily beat it and they spend a good bit of time trying to perfect those AI.
Sure the AI in SC2 can beat bad players but you start to talk about skilled players and it is no contest.
Actually if developers tried they could develop a very good AI which would probably own 99,99 % of the player base. PvP players are just a little too convinced of their capabilities. At least some developers could, most probably not. Anyway the purpose of AI is not to win but to loose, maybe giving you some challenge but in the end it should loose.
So it's the psychological part. And of course the human nature. But I am really not an expert on that topic. Probably Freud (or more likely one of his successors) could explain to you why humans are like they are and feel like they do. It's very complex.
Of course, you can get bot programs in WoW that can demolish other players in PvP because they can react perfectly with CC and interrupts to every single thing they do. Creating an AI that can beat players simply by perfectly countering everything they do with unnatural reflexes isn't particularly great AI though.
Players don't want to play against a supercomputer with lightning fast reflexes. They want AI that represents some sort of realism in terms of how a creature would react. Its obviously a balancing act between challenge and frustration though, it is a game after all.
You know, that's not something I've thought about before. When fighting an AI in a game, and the AI is a lizard thing, you really want the lizard thing to act like a lizard thing and to do things a lizard thing would do. Sure, players can potentially offer more challenge and the appearance of random behavior, but they are going to act like players, not like characters in games.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Well AI doesn't have feelings and is only executing various scripts. Regardless of how complex they are, the AI is just an obstacle for the player to overcome. And depending on it's difficulty, the player has to improve or give up.
Feelings/desire of players is the reason so many of us enjoy PvE more than constant open world PvP. Another player, doesn't just want to play the game, they don't just "want to have fun" - they want to win.
Winning can mean different things to different people, for one person, winning can mean, you outplayed your opponent and now you are secure in that you defeated them. But "winning" too often means "winning at all costs, regardless of how." And that's where you have PvE'ers who just don't want to put up with it. AI will never want to win at all costs, it will always do it's job and either win or lose - that's it.
A player doesn't just win or lose. A player wants to piss you off, they want you personally to be unhappy and feel demoralized - there is no reason to camp someone other than to upset them. There is no value in bringing greater numbers and claiming victory . . . no duh? There is no value in being much better geared/higher leveled than your adversary.
But that's what separates AI from players, AI does what it's supposed to do and players do what's needed to win. Notice, winning is not the same as having fun. Winning can be fun, because it's fun to succeed, but a lot of us play games as a form of entertainment where we (the end user) want to be entertained, not locked in competition against someone who HAS to win.
OP, I know you're looking at the scenario purely from a combat/complexity of fighting perspective, but that's not the reason many people don't want to PvP all the time. It's this other human side of the equation we don't want to deal with.
I love to pvp, hell I just played DotA2 three days straight this weekend (work was closed due to snow on Monday). But when I want to PvE/Co-op play, I don't necessarily feel like engaging against other players. I just want to play the game and have fun.
As someone pointed out, I think it's not the combat at all. I'm a PvE player. I've tried pvp a lot of times, i played Shadowbane, i played EVE, i even went as far as to play AoC to cap on a PvP server in the hopes that i would get into it, but all the experiences just kept confirming that i hate it. And it has nothing to do with the other players' skill in combat.
Hell, if you were to tell me, "hey, this weekend, when you go raid, would you like to do a unique raid where a developer is controlling all the bosses?" I'd be like "HELL YEAH! BRING IT!" So it's not the challenge or the predictability.
I think it comes down to the fact that in the MMORPG context, the AI exists to entertain me. Even if it's super difficult and I die over and over and don't end up winning, its ultimate purpose it help me enjoy the game. Another player's ultimate purpose is their own. If there were paid employees whose job was to to provided meaningful and relevant PvP within the in-character scope of the game, I would probably be happy to engage with them, because they are there to entertain me.
TL;DR: I don't dislike PvP because of the combat challenge, I dislike PvP because of other people. People suck.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
Originally posted by arieste As someone pointed out, I think it's not the combat at all. I'm a PvE player. I've tried pvp a lot of times, i played Shadowbane, i played EVE, i even went as far as to play AoC to cap on a PvP server in the hopes that i would get into it, but all the experiences just kept confirming that i hate it. And it has nothing to do with the other players' skill in combat.
Hell, if you were to tell me, "hey, this weekend, when you go raid, would you like to do a unique raid where a developer is controlling all the bosses?" I'd be like "HELL YEAH! BRING IT!" So it's not the challenge or the predictability.
I think it comes down to the fact that in the MMORPG context, the AI exists to entertain me. Even if it's super difficult and I die over and over and don't end up winning, its ultimate purpose it help me enjoy the game. Another player's ultimate purpose is their own. If there were paid employees whose job was to to provided meaningful and relevant PvP within the in-character scope of the game, I would probably be happy to engage with them, because they are there to entertain me.
TL;DR: I don't dislike PvP because of the combat challenge, I dislike PvP because of other people. People suck.
Interesting post. I think what makes you and me different is the part about AI existing to entertain me. I just don't find AI entertaining because it is so simplistic. If say there were people paid to run the PvE mobs so they reacted in a more intelligent way maybe I'd feel differently. Most games leveling is press 1 1 1 3 4 1 1 1 and if something goes wrong maybe I'll need that 5 key. It is just dull. Dungeons are a little better but with the tank and spank AE nature of most dungeons these days that is even dull. Back in the EQ1 days when killing a mob could actually be a challenge it felt a bit different as well. In those days you could really focus on efficiency and it wasn't just about blowing things up and moving on like games are today.
Maybe when EQN comes out I'll feel differently since the mobs move around and are supposed to act more intelligently in general but for most games the mobs are just XP blobs sitting in my way. When I level up it isn't in hopes of killing the next bigger XP blob, it is to make myself more powerful in case that dude next to me decides to jump me.
Why would a person ask for great AI to combat, but refuse to engage in combat with a player?
I'm no psychologist, so could some one please explain this mindset?
The reality is, there will never be a great AI in games, because AI is programmed to lose by default, while players on the other hand want to win be default.
Oh, I would not mind PvP in MMO's if two things were always true. First, all players would have to be equal in terms of equipment, health, attacks and so on. Second, MMO PvP in general would have to become interesting. So far have never seen interesting PvP in ANY MMO to date.
Why would a person ask for great AI to combat, but refuse to engage in combat with a player?
I'm no psychologist, so could some one please explain this mindset?
First of all to those people, who question AI capabilities.
It is 30 years already since AI won over best of the best of playing chess humans.
There are no questions that intelligently implemented AI (it might require some efforts and knowledge) could be not weaker, simple, or less challenging than real person. And recent level of AI development much higher, than necessary to emulate fighting behavior of best game players. People, AI is a hart of best military technologies!
And about behavior emulating. Advanced AI can kill you over and over again at your spawn point, or talk back dirty, if it would be set with jerk pattern of behavior.
Unfortunately development of PVP aspect of MMO significantly slowed down real development of AI implementation. It was not needed that much anymore.
Now the answer to OP question (as I see it).
Besides many similarities of defeating player or AI of same qualities, there are few differences.
One of them is based on inability of AI to feel a thing. When you defeat a person besides other satisfactions of win, you also expect person to be upset about it, or even feel fear. It might not always go consciously for you however. But it has some logical justification. There are better chances that defeated person will not attempt revange, if he fears you. So you get additional satisfaction if you see, or expect that kind of aftermath of your glorious win.
AI cannot feel. And you will feel that you kind of robbed of part of your victory.
So, satisfaction from defeating AI = satisfaction from defeating player – your sadistic satisfaction.
Chess is pattern based, it's right down the street of ai, humans do the unpredictable due to a mix of emotions and rote and skill and logical leaps - that ai can't do yet, 1 day though we will be ganked by an ai
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Comments
People aren't robots. While they might use the same general strategy they won't use the same exact strategy and there is no single strategy even in say arena. Players react to what the other side does, mob AI just follows its scripts. Players constantly go off script. You fight the same person 10 times and most likely all 10 fights will go differently. You watch some high end arena play and you see something different every game. They might start the same but the results decide what the next step is.
Players are in no way shape or form close to AI in predictability so I fully stand by my statement.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
The reason people win against AI now is because that is how the AI is designed. The players are supposed to win. Certainly they may have to go through a specific sequence, solve the combat-dance puzzle, but AI is made to be beaten. Even in games like Dark Souls, there is meant to be a winner, and that winner is meant to be the player.
We are already to the point where the AI in network games must be gimped in order to allow players to win. This wasn't always the case. In the past, the AI had to cheat just to break even. As in break the rules cheat, not just have inflated hit points and the like. It's not like this any longer. Reduction of network latency, AI complexity and computing power have all well surpassed what is necessary to build an AI that can win the simplistic fights available in video games.
People seem to forget that computer AI are created by people. If someone was set a task to create an AI with the purpose of defeating any and all human competitors in a fair fight, that is exactly what would happen. Even there the AI would have to be gimped to account for the 100 millisecond fastest possible human reaction time* or the fights wouldn't be anywhere close to fair. You know what the human response would be? Exactly what @Madimorga said, stack the odds with more players versus the AI.
* Time it takes you and any other human to pull your finger off of a hot stove.
**
Wow. I went way off topic. Another post up there answered the question though. The AI in a game exists for the player to win, because it's a game. The idea is to offer enough challenge to be fun, without being a d!ck about it.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
you cant compare PvE and PVP.
PvE is for pure fun, entertainment that allows you to act out fantasies of grandeur. better AI allows a better story to be told and acted out. unless you want real people to take the place of all npc's in a game, the cost and logistics of it would just be crazy. makes me laugh just thinking about a million (or more?) needed for npc's in WoW alone. there would be no job crisis ever again lol
PvP is for sport, still fun and entertaining. but its an ego stroke, when you beat someone your better than that person for one sec, till you get killed in turn.
You mean AI where enemies from a level 90 zone go to a starting area and kill all the people in that starting area? Or AI that walks up behind you while you're selling stuff to a vendor an takes 5 or 6 shots before you can even turn around to see wtf is going on? I don't know.
Seriously, though, the single biggest thing is respecting someone's gaming experience. They're just doing their own thing trying to level up. Yada, yada. It's not that they WON'T engage other players, it's just they don't go out of their way to engage other players, or at least not the players who appear to be pre-occupied with something else. It's the "You do you, I'll do me." mentality.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
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PvE = Puzzle; PvP = Competition
Done and Done without inserting personal preference and opinion....yet.
I don't like PvP because of the people I meet in PvP. If you're not the best, you're the worst and there are a lot of people who will make sure that you know you are the worst. So I just stay out of it. If I spent the time, I'm sure I could be competitive, but I just don't want to wade through the jerks to get to the fun. PvE players seem to have a higher tolerance for screwing up.
I am not saying one is better than the other, nor am I saying that PvP players are better than PvE players, or vice versa. It's a preference thing.
While we are on the topic, not all PvE encounters are scripted. I will say that is one thing Tera did very well, bosses have a set of actions they can do and have no cooldown on those abilities. You really did have to react to what the boss was doing, not just memorize the order of steps.
I can fly higher than an aeroplane.
And I have the voice of a thousand hurricanes.
Hurt - Wars
Pretty simple actually....you can either play against A.I. or play against hacks your choice.As to PvP players I don't think I'm disagreeing with you especially when you say "high end" we must differ in how many of those are encountered in a game. I only have empirical data.
We certainly differ what a "great AI" could do. A computer AI does not have to be so linearly predictable. The AI can process more variables and react much faster then a human player. Typically the AI is dumbed down so it's easier. The question says "great AI" Most mobs do not even come close to having a great AI.
Mmh... I'm getting an undertone of smugness with a heavy touch of condescension.
Have you considered that, perhaps people like playing against AI, because of the lack of pressure from competition and better immersion. AI, good AI, supports immersion. It is the same thing a GM does in a tabletop RPG: The objective is to play with the players, not against them. Similarly, a good AI in a game is not meant to beat the player, but to offer a challenging opponent - likely mimicking a human player in the process.
There's also the aspect that our brain loves learning new patterns and if AI should also provide patterns to learn. Tank, spank and heal - the most successful AIs might not be the smartest ones.
Using Skinner box to explain anything is the same as playing the piano with oven mittens on: it is very crude and clumsy. Also makes anyone who knows even a little bit of music cringe and cover their ears.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Imo it's definately not the combat.
Actually if developers tried they could develop a very good AI which would probably own 99,99 % of the player base. PvP players are just a little too convinced of their capabilities. At least some developers could, most probably not. Anyway the purpose of AI is not to win but to loose, maybe giving you some challenge but in the end it should loose.
So it's the psychological part. And of course the human nature. But I am really not an expert on that topic. Probably Freud (or more likely one of his successors) could explain to you why humans are like they are and feel like they do. It's very complex.
I'm a PvP player primarily, but I can think of a number of reasons:
1) AI will not exploit game mechanics or swarm towards FOTM builds / classes.
2) AI will not tea bag you, /spit on you or send you rude tells after a fight.
3) AI works within confines of rules that can be easily adapted to as a player. Players are very unpredictable.
4) AI will stick to realistic levels of communication. A mob might call for help in a 20 m radius, but a player can call for help from an entire zone, or anywhere on the world, and annoy you with CC until backup arrives.
Just a few reasons. Generally its because AI sticks to the rules, players do not. I like the unpredictability though, and trying to guess how a player will react.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
Of course, you can get bot programs in WoW that can demolish other players in PvP because they can react perfectly with CC and interrupts to every single thing they do. Creating an AI that can beat players simply by perfectly countering everything they do with unnatural reflexes isn't particularly great AI though.
Players don't want to play against a supercomputer with lightning fast reflexes. They want AI that represents some sort of realism in terms of how a creature would react. Its obviously a balancing act between challenge and frustration though, it is a game after all.
I think you overestimate the quality of the developers of MMORPG. It is very difficult to create an AI that can defeat a competent player at anything without it cheating in some way. Take RTS as an example, the AI in those cheat and players still can easily beat it and they spend a good bit of time trying to perfect those AI.
Sure the AI in SC2 can beat bad players but you start to talk about skilled players and it is no contest.
You know, that's not something I've thought about before. When fighting an AI in a game, and the AI is a lizard thing, you really want the lizard thing to act like a lizard thing and to do things a lizard thing would do. Sure, players can potentially offer more challenge and the appearance of random behavior, but they are going to act like players, not like characters in games.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Well AI doesn't have feelings and is only executing various scripts. Regardless of how complex they are, the AI is just an obstacle for the player to overcome. And depending on it's difficulty, the player has to improve or give up.
Feelings/desire of players is the reason so many of us enjoy PvE more than constant open world PvP. Another player, doesn't just want to play the game, they don't just "want to have fun" - they want to win.
Winning can mean different things to different people, for one person, winning can mean, you outplayed your opponent and now you are secure in that you defeated them. But "winning" too often means "winning at all costs, regardless of how." And that's where you have PvE'ers who just don't want to put up with it. AI will never want to win at all costs, it will always do it's job and either win or lose - that's it.
A player doesn't just win or lose. A player wants to piss you off, they want you personally to be unhappy and feel demoralized - there is no reason to camp someone other than to upset them. There is no value in bringing greater numbers and claiming victory . . . no duh? There is no value in being much better geared/higher leveled than your adversary.
But that's what separates AI from players, AI does what it's supposed to do and players do what's needed to win. Notice, winning is not the same as having fun. Winning can be fun, because it's fun to succeed, but a lot of us play games as a form of entertainment where we (the end user) want to be entertained, not locked in competition against someone who HAS to win.
OP, I know you're looking at the scenario purely from a combat/complexity of fighting perspective, but that's not the reason many people don't want to PvP all the time. It's this other human side of the equation we don't want to deal with.
I love to pvp, hell I just played DotA2 three days straight this weekend (work was closed due to snow on Monday). But when I want to PvE/Co-op play, I don't necessarily feel like engaging against other players. I just want to play the game and have fun.
As someone pointed out, I think it's not the combat at all. I'm a PvE player. I've tried pvp a lot of times, i played Shadowbane, i played EVE, i even went as far as to play AoC to cap on a PvP server in the hopes that i would get into it, but all the experiences just kept confirming that i hate it. And it has nothing to do with the other players' skill in combat.
Hell, if you were to tell me, "hey, this weekend, when you go raid, would you like to do a unique raid where a developer is controlling all the bosses?" I'd be like "HELL YEAH! BRING IT!" So it's not the challenge or the predictability.
I think it comes down to the fact that in the MMORPG context, the AI exists to entertain me. Even if it's super difficult and I die over and over and don't end up winning, its ultimate purpose it help me enjoy the game. Another player's ultimate purpose is their own. If there were paid employees whose job was to to provided meaningful and relevant PvP within the in-character scope of the game, I would probably be happy to engage with them, because they are there to entertain me.
TL;DR: I don't dislike PvP because of the combat challenge, I dislike PvP because of other people. People suck.
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Interesting post. I think what makes you and me different is the part about AI existing to entertain me. I just don't find AI entertaining because it is so simplistic. If say there were people paid to run the PvE mobs so they reacted in a more intelligent way maybe I'd feel differently. Most games leveling is press 1 1 1 3 4 1 1 1 and if something goes wrong maybe I'll need that 5 key. It is just dull. Dungeons are a little better but with the tank and spank AE nature of most dungeons these days that is even dull. Back in the EQ1 days when killing a mob could actually be a challenge it felt a bit different as well. In those days you could really focus on efficiency and it wasn't just about blowing things up and moving on like games are today.
Maybe when EQN comes out I'll feel differently since the mobs move around and are supposed to act more intelligently in general but for most games the mobs are just XP blobs sitting in my way. When I level up it isn't in hopes of killing the next bigger XP blob, it is to make myself more powerful in case that dude next to me decides to jump me.
The reality is, there will never be a great AI in games, because AI is programmed to lose by default, while players on the other hand want to win be default.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Let's party like it is 1863!
Sometimes you want to AI to kill you over and over again at your spawn point.
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Death_leveling
Maybe because AI: doesn't talk back? Doesn't make a camp on your corps? Doesn't start dancing on your corps? Doesn't full loot you?.....
Don't think it's combat
First of all to those people, who question AI capabilities.
It is 30 years already since AI won over best of the best of playing chess humans.
There are no questions that intelligently implemented AI (it might require some efforts and knowledge) could be not weaker, simple, or less challenging than real person. And recent level of AI development much higher, than necessary to emulate fighting behavior of best game players. People, AI is a hart of best military technologies!
And about behavior emulating. Advanced AI can kill you over and over again at your spawn point, or talk back dirty, if it would be set with jerk pattern of behavior.
Unfortunately development of PVP aspect of MMO significantly slowed down real development of AI implementation. It was not needed that much anymore.
Now the answer to OP question (as I see it).
Besides many similarities of defeating player or AI of same qualities, there are few differences.
One of them is based on inability of AI to feel a thing. When you defeat a person besides other satisfactions of win, you also expect person to be upset about it, or even feel fear. It might not always go consciously for you however. But it has some logical justification. There are better chances that defeated person will not attempt revange, if he fears you. So you get additional satisfaction if you see, or expect that kind of aftermath of your glorious win.
AI cannot feel. And you will feel that you kind of robbed of part of your victory.
So, satisfaction from defeating AI = satisfaction from defeating player – your sadistic satisfaction.
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