I've always hated the concept of level's in an RPG. Always preferred the Ultima style of progression. Quest's? Hell that's always been the bread and butter of RPG's
What? You like clicking on a rock non-stop to level up mining, and keep clicking on a tree to level up chopping (or whatever they call it).
If all games are like that, i would not be playing game now.
If you go back to the root to RPG (AD&D), it always have levels, and not this horrible click-on-stuff-to-level-skill stuff.
I am glad few games are using that horrible UO system anymore.
Isn't D3 kinda like Ultima? Instead of clicking on rocks-n-trees, your clicking on heads, it's just cooler looking (all in good fun)
That was mean lol
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
somebody always say, " if you dont like levels you shouldnt play MMOs"
yet the first MMOs didnt have character levels....
What is funny is that some people think skill levels are not levels or that games that use skill levels are "completely different" and classless character development all but cures AIDS.
Thats because it is different.
With character levels, developers are either forced to split the world in the zones by level ranged. That means the actually game world is smaller than it really is, because during each level range there are fewer zones than total world.
Or the developers can scale the world up like Elder Scrolls does, which isnt doable in a MMO when everybody has different levels.
GW2 tried a level scale system, but as we can see, it doesnt work. Players only go to the locations with the meta events or a zerg train, unless its a max level zone. Because all other drops from the lower level areas are useless.
This system also in effect, makes crafting less useful, since most of the items for crafting are useless once the general population outlevels it.
The game can never be a actual virtual world, because the game world is always getting smaller and the features, like crafting, is getting smaller the higher in level you get.
Originally posted by Kuuhn I totally get this topic. I'm a huge car fan.. just the other day on cars.com I posted a similar thread saying how sick I was of wheels and motors.. it's like come on.. I hopped on my old horse and it was like wow. It has legs. Than I realized I was an ass hole.
see again, somebody trying to make the claims that MMORPG= Character levels, and Quest Grind.
Go back and look at the first MMOs!!!
Defining the genre from elements of past generation of MMOs.
But I am done arguing with you on this. You dont get it, you wont get it...
What really needs to happen in new MMOs is that they need to revert the focus of the games back to the leveling experience. While end-game is fun and all, playing a game like EverQuest or Asheron's Call was not about reaching the level cap as fast as possible because firstly, it took forever to do such a thing, and secondly, you could experience most of the end game while leveling, that is to say, the core game experience didn't change all that much when you hit end game. The main issue is this however, no company will spend money to make a game that has a leveling experience as slow as Everquest or Asheron's Call because it pushes away the casual player base which makes up the majority of the player who play these new MMORPGS. So what they do instead is make a leveling experience that has the quality of a single player RPG game, but the flaw in this is that you cant have the same experience of a single player RPG in an MMO simply due to the technological limitations on MMORPGS. If some one released a single player RPG that used MMO mechanics as its core game play, i dont imagine it would sell all that well.
the problem with the old concept of leveling,
Is that it wouldnt work now days. Back then, the genre of MMORPG was a new thing for most people, since EQ1-WoW were people's first MMO.
Back then, most new MMO gamers had no idea what they were doing, which is why Leveling itself seem like a bigger task. Many of use were blind to the reality that Levels only serve as a level sink and artificial content gate.
But now days, MMO gamers are far more informed on this reality, and once they realize this, Levels are never viewed the same again. Back when MMO genre was new to people, people didnt mind taking their time, because levels were an illusion that blinded most people back then. Those same MMO gamers are now woken from this illusion so it no longer intrigues people like it once did. So people see no reason to take their time leveling anymore, when the higher levels get the most gameplay and content.
This caused the new aged Speed Leveling generation. Most of them are former EQ-WoW MMO gamers that realized later on, that Level really are pointless.
And with this new community, the Speed Levelers, learned new tactics and new methods of getting the job done. We see this now days even with the most grindy and time consuming leveling MMOs.
But most people arent willing to neither power level, nor play these level grinders anymore.
MMO developers, being conservatives that they are, continue to make this mistake over and over.
it took Blizzard over 8 years to realize from their own data, that most new WoW players get bored of the level grind and quit before level 20, because its always the same old same old boring and useless grinds that just about every other post EQ MMO has, but with different coats of paint on top.
Originally posted by Kuuhn I totally get this topic. I'm a huge car fan.. just the other day on cars.com I posted a similar thread saying how sick I was of wheels and motors.. it's like come on.. I hopped on my old horse and it was like wow. It has legs. Than I realized I was an ass hole.
see again, somebody trying to make the claims that MMORPG= Character levels, and Quest Grind.
Go back and look at the first MMOs!!!
Defining the genre from elements of past generation of MMOs.
But I am done arguing with you on this. You dont get it, you wont get it...
Go back and look at games. MMO were made as mutli player RPGs, not the other way around. And if you think UO was the template that started it, you are mistaken. They did things like their SP RPGs, that's all. Like others did with the normal levels and questing systems.
Matter of fact...I only remember UO as the ONE MMO that didn't use levels and such. You can come up with othe obscure titles I spose. But most had quests and levels. Get tired of it all you want, it is the mold that MMOs were made from.
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
Not going to read through 12 pages of posts, but the fact is there are alternative methods of character advancement for MMORPGs. The issue is no one is implementing them, and so far the ones who have implemented said methods have heavily watered down the concept.
For example, it's completely doable to gain experience through uncovering areas and exploring on ones own, they just need a system that acts like the fog of war system in the RTS genre to track what the player has and hasn't uncovered. After the player has uncovered a certain percentage of the map it stops rewarding experience points. An example of this concept being watered down into a completely useless format is World of Warcraft, which only counts discovery experience for a set number of areas and just uncovers chunks of land upon walking into a specific area.
Another possibility is just allowing players to craft their own personal objectives into experience gaining opportunities. If a player is after a specific piece of armor to complete his set, he could turn acquiring said piece of armor into a quest objective and gain experience that way.
Not going to read through 12 pages of posts, but the fact is there are alternative methods of character advancement for MMORPGs. The issue is no one is implementing them, and so far the ones who have implemented said methods have heavily watered down the concept.
I would say don't fix what is not broken.
Just improve on quests and leveling. There are lots of good SP games with levels and questing. Learn from that.
As far as I'm conserned the level system should be 100% obsolete -- no more level 32-39 areas. The moment you create the character it should be fully fleshed out and you divide up the points as you see fit in the creation menu; it would be onerous demand put upon the publisher to make meaningful general content for all, rather than particular levels.
The next truly great mmo won't have to use cheap devices such as level systems. The level system is designed to create resistance and thus keep you occupied, but a publisher that uses its head won't need such an arbitrary device.
I found myself completely sick of questing and leveling as well.
So I bought myself a Wii U and have been having way more fun with it than I have with MMORPGs in a long, long time. There comes a point where you have to realize the genre just isn't for you anymore.
What people need to realize there is nothing inherently wrong with leveling or questing....
The issue is that games make leveling and questing REQUIRED... In fact you spend the majority of the time your playing leveling and questing until you hit max level. Players should be able to quest and level if they feel like it. Being required to do a thing in a game, where your supposed to be making your own choices is a bad idea.
A game should never FORCE a player to do anything(excepting possibly a short tutorial) They should be able to play and enjoy a game and never have to do a quest. In the vast majority of games that's not possible, or is possible but very detramential in terms of how effecently a player can accomplish his goals. I know a player COULD get to 90 in wow by just killing a billion mobs but it would take forever and wouldn't really give the player anything in return. You COULD level to 80 in GW2 in WvW but it would take you 20-30 times longer than just questing(again your still just grinding).
In EVE a player COULD do missions(quests) and lot of people did, you could get really cool stuff by doing them, but players could also do ALOT of other activities that each had their own rewards and play style. Questing isn't tied to any of the mechanics of the game. Where as in most MMO's you need to gather XP which is inherently tied to questing. Whereas EvE uses a skill system that isn't tied to any particular activity.
Now That's not saying EvE is the best system because it's not. Personally it's silly that a player could spend three years leaning to be an awsome industralist while doing nothing except killing players, or worse by not playing at all.
It just shows that there are ways to make questing not attached to a grind.
Great post! I finally figured out why I hate 99% of linear quest hub themeparks...they require you to do their stupid quests. It should be a large dangerous world in which I choose which way to advance myself, not by doing chores down linear corridors that have no risk and ultimately no reward. This should be a virtual world that risks failure with very limited hand holding.
I may try ESO if there is a way to progress without doing boring no risk quests.
As far as I'm conserned the level system should be 100% obsolete -- no more level 32-39 areas. The moment you create the character it should be fully fleshed out and you divide up the points as you see fit in the creation menu; it would be onerous demand put upon the publisher to make meaningful general content for all, rather than particular levels.
The next truly great mmo won't have to use cheap devices such as level systems. The level system is designed to create resistance and thus keep you occupied, but a publisher that uses its head won't need such an arbitrary device.
I totally agree:
I want a developer that's so talented at world and content design that they can keep me occupied, immersed and entertained without even thinking about levels.
Originally posted by doug200463 I have went back to Ultima Online.. where you can explore the whole world w/o having to worry about mobs being over level.. NO MORE LEVELS!!!
well, i don't want to play with thousand of others in a virtual persistent world. I prefer good SP content.
So what if everyone goes through the same story content. We do that in SP games that that does not make the good SP games bad. The reality is that everyone who plays Dishonored plays Corvo, and goes through the same story. The story has great gameplay and content .. and since i am not seeing the other guy playing it .. what is the problem?
The same is true for MMO as long as the story is done in an instance, or a phase.
So you call it MMO, but you play it as a single player game. SP is bad for MMOs, cause when you play single you don't interact with other players, and the game is not a MMO anymore, at least for you and the people around you. So SP guests and so called single story shall be excluded from the MMO games. Quests shall be replaced by objectives, and players shall compete for rewards.
He prefer (F2P) MMO and play it as single player game because they are free and play as single player game because it keep him from spend money
That's great way to enjoy without much cost , at lest for him.
Pretty odd logic : "prefer massive multiplayers online games but solo play it"
Originally posted by doug200463 Game designers need to come up with new ideas when it comes to advancing your character, I have got so sick of the normal MMO grind, more and more levels added, quests holding me in zones, when i just want to move on to another zone.. I have went back to Ultima Online.. where you can explore the whole world w/o having to worry about mobs being over level.. NO MORE LEVELS!!!
well you are gonna have to do that no matter what game you play, but try TSW the investigation quests set it apart from other games at least in that respect.
There are times when one must ask themselves is it my passion that truly frightens you? Or your own?
Originally posted by bcbully All you people who think mmorpgs need questing, try EVE and Wushu today. Both are free to try. Both will change your understanding in a profound way.
They do need quests/task/mission , what ever you call it.
For example , npc buy a sword for 10 gold > 1 kind of task/quest which require you to bring a sword to NPC to get 10 gold reward.
But at less , at less please no more quest to quest to level up .. like .. like .. like wow "clone"
It's been since the evolution of the "WoW End Game" that we have seen this. MMOs before WoW didn't have these concerns. While hitting level cap did cause a shif in player's agendas, it didn't completely alter the entire nature of the game itself.
In current theme parks, you level up as a hero, the world begins to recognize you as a powerful force. And in fact, you are. Most leveling content is mind numbingly easy, especially in gamess like WoW with the account bound gear. The whole process has been reduced to a "Necessary Evil". Even the developers have taken this approach. They are flirting with the idea of removing it altogether now.
I've said this before. It comes from a mind set of "playing the game you HAVE to play in order to get to the game you WANT to play" So, now they want to eliminate the "have to play" and only leave the "want to play" games. In one sense, this would be a return to old school. And while I agree that we need to consolidate the 2, I think cutting out one altogether is the wrong approach. MMORPGs will just become PVE versions of what MOBA games are. Multi-Player Online Raid Instances. I imagine there is a market for such games. And they'd certainly be easier and more cost efficient to develop. But To me, that would be a whole new fork of the genre.
My thoughts would be to bring the 2 play styles together but keep the player experience consistent throughout the game.
Originally posted by bcbully All you people who think mmorpgs need questing, try EVE and Wushu today. Both are free to try. Both will change your understanding in a profound way.
Wushu is boring to me. Too much running around. I won't play it even though it is F2P.
Eve is also boring to me. PvE combat is easy mode meh.
Comments
That was mean lol
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Thats because it is different.
With character levels, developers are either forced to split the world in the zones by level ranged. That means the actually game world is smaller than it really is, because during each level range there are fewer zones than total world.
Or the developers can scale the world up like Elder Scrolls does, which isnt doable in a MMO when everybody has different levels.
GW2 tried a level scale system, but as we can see, it doesnt work. Players only go to the locations with the meta events or a zerg train, unless its a max level zone. Because all other drops from the lower level areas are useless.
This system also in effect, makes crafting less useful, since most of the items for crafting are useless once the general population outlevels it.
The game can never be a actual virtual world, because the game world is always getting smaller and the features, like crafting, is getting smaller the higher in level you get.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
see again, somebody trying to make the claims that MMORPG= Character levels, and Quest Grind.
Go back and look at the first MMOs!!!
Defining the genre from elements of past generation of MMOs.
But I am done arguing with you on this. You dont get it, you wont get it...
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
the problem with the old concept of leveling,
Is that it wouldnt work now days. Back then, the genre of MMORPG was a new thing for most people, since EQ1-WoW were people's first MMO.
Back then, most new MMO gamers had no idea what they were doing, which is why Leveling itself seem like a bigger task. Many of use were blind to the reality that Levels only serve as a level sink and artificial content gate.
But now days, MMO gamers are far more informed on this reality, and once they realize this, Levels are never viewed the same again. Back when MMO genre was new to people, people didnt mind taking their time, because levels were an illusion that blinded most people back then. Those same MMO gamers are now woken from this illusion so it no longer intrigues people like it once did. So people see no reason to take their time leveling anymore, when the higher levels get the most gameplay and content.
This caused the new aged Speed Leveling generation. Most of them are former EQ-WoW MMO gamers that realized later on, that Level really are pointless.
And with this new community, the Speed Levelers, learned new tactics and new methods of getting the job done. We see this now days even with the most grindy and time consuming leveling MMOs.
But most people arent willing to neither power level, nor play these level grinders anymore.
MMO developers, being conservatives that they are, continue to make this mistake over and over.
it took Blizzard over 8 years to realize from their own data, that most new WoW players get bored of the level grind and quit before level 20, because its always the same old same old boring and useless grinds that just about every other post EQ MMO has, but with different coats of paint on top.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Go back and look at games. MMO were made as mutli player RPGs, not the other way around. And if you think UO was the template that started it, you are mistaken. They did things like their SP RPGs, that's all. Like others did with the normal levels and questing systems.
Matter of fact...I only remember UO as the ONE MMO that didn't use levels and such. You can come up with othe obscure titles I spose. But most had quests and levels. Get tired of it all you want, it is the mold that MMOs were made from.
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
Only if the rocks will kill you if you don't move/dodge and use the right skills.
The first MMOs are not very good games. The genre evolves like everything else.
And it office server still alive while other "good evol games" are closed one by one.
You mean like SWG? and Vanguard?
Not going to read through 12 pages of posts, but the fact is there are alternative methods of character advancement for MMORPGs. The issue is no one is implementing them, and so far the ones who have implemented said methods have heavily watered down the concept.
For example, it's completely doable to gain experience through uncovering areas and exploring on ones own, they just need a system that acts like the fog of war system in the RTS genre to track what the player has and hasn't uncovered. After the player has uncovered a certain percentage of the map it stops rewarding experience points. An example of this concept being watered down into a completely useless format is World of Warcraft, which only counts discovery experience for a set number of areas and just uncovers chunks of land upon walking into a specific area.
Another possibility is just allowing players to craft their own personal objectives into experience gaining opportunities. If a player is after a specific piece of armor to complete his set, he could turn acquiring said piece of armor into a quest objective and gain experience that way.
I would say don't fix what is not broken.
Just improve on quests and leveling. There are lots of good SP games with levels and questing. Learn from that.
Here is the solution I have found.
http://lifeisfeudal.com/
Thank God! I have been waiting a decade.
edit - Video
Life IS Feudal
As far as I'm conserned the level system should be 100% obsolete -- no more level 32-39 areas. The moment you create the character it should be fully fleshed out and you divide up the points as you see fit in the creation menu; it would be onerous demand put upon the publisher to make meaningful general content for all, rather than particular levels.
The next truly great mmo won't have to use cheap devices such as level systems. The level system is designed to create resistance and thus keep you occupied, but a publisher that uses its head won't need such an arbitrary device.
http://wyrdblogging.blogspot.com/
I found myself completely sick of questing and leveling as well.
So I bought myself a Wii U and have been having way more fun with it than I have with MMORPGs in a long, long time. There comes a point where you have to realize the genre just isn't for you anymore.
Great post! I finally figured out why I hate 99% of linear quest hub themeparks...they require you to do their stupid quests. It should be a large dangerous world in which I choose which way to advance myself, not by doing chores down linear corridors that have no risk and ultimately no reward. This should be a virtual world that risks failure with very limited hand holding.
I may try ESO if there is a way to progress without doing boring no risk quests.
Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.
I totally agree:
I want a developer that's so talented at world and content design that they can keep me occupied, immersed and entertained without even thinking about levels.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
^ Agreed.
He prefer (F2P) MMO and play it as single player game because they are free and play as single player game because it keep him from spend money
That's great way to enjoy without much cost , at lest for him.
Pretty odd logic : "prefer massive multiplayers online games but solo play it"
So you want to take the MMO and the RPG out of the MMORPG genre?
Go and play LoL
well you are gonna have to do that no matter what game you play, but try TSW the investigation quests set it apart from other games at least in that respect.
There are times when one must ask themselves is it my passion that truly frightens you? Or your own?
They do need quests/task/mission , what ever you call it.
For example , npc buy a sword for 10 gold > 1 kind of task/quest which require you to bring a sword to NPC to get 10 gold reward.
But at less , at less please no more quest to quest to level up .. like .. like .. like wow "clone"
J/K
It's been since the evolution of the "WoW End Game" that we have seen this. MMOs before WoW didn't have these concerns. While hitting level cap did cause a shif in player's agendas, it didn't completely alter the entire nature of the game itself.
In current theme parks, you level up as a hero, the world begins to recognize you as a powerful force. And in fact, you are. Most leveling content is mind numbingly easy, especially in gamess like WoW with the account bound gear. The whole process has been reduced to a "Necessary Evil". Even the developers have taken this approach. They are flirting with the idea of removing it altogether now.
I've said this before. It comes from a mind set of "playing the game you HAVE to play in order to get to the game you WANT to play" So, now they want to eliminate the "have to play" and only leave the "want to play" games. In one sense, this would be a return to old school. And while I agree that we need to consolidate the 2, I think cutting out one altogether is the wrong approach. MMORPGs will just become PVE versions of what MOBA games are. Multi-Player Online Raid Instances. I imagine there is a market for such games. And they'd certainly be easier and more cost efficient to develop. But To me, that would be a whole new fork of the genre.
My thoughts would be to bring the 2 play styles together but keep the player experience consistent throughout the game.
Take a look at :
Should attaining max level be a given?
Wushu is boring to me. Too much running around. I won't play it even though it is F2P.
Eve is also boring to me. PvE combat is easy mode meh.