Originally posted by TechnoMonkey Tears already???? oh my god I didn't expect them to start so soon.... I'm just getting ready for the big tears shortly after 4/4/14 though, man I'm gonna enjoy them xD
You should look into some different, healthier hobby
I rather we focus on the intent than the actual details of purchasable goods, be it a horse, a weapon (in the future who knows) etc.
Im sry but I have to bring up a comparison between this and CRB Wildstar. Not a comparison on which game is better as that could lead to unending debate and also because I think both are good games with great potentials. But let's look at this specific cash shop aspect (and it's intent).
Both are sub based. CRB is also running a CREDD system where play time and gold can be traded among players. This create an opportunity for players to play more without CRB getting any extra money. Differently, Zenimax is doing this horse thing which create an opportunity to grab more with Zenimax getting extra money.
Now I'm not saying Zenimax is evil. But I think players have got to be careful. If you love and want to support the game please support it within reasons and make your voice heard so the game can stay on the right path and become a great game.
Sad, but expected. I'm so not touching ESO with a ten meter pole.
Shame, because I love TES franchise, but they've managed to ruin it for good.
My opinion is my own. I respect all other opinions and views equally, but keep in mind that my opinion will always be the best for me. That's why it's my opinion.
I'll play ESO just the same way as I play any other MMO, regardless of the payment or monetization model.
When I feel that the game design is making the game too expensive for me, I stop playing. My problem is that I enjoy many of the the features in MMO's that can be classed as "optional and/or cosmetic", because those are often features that contribute a great deal to my enjoyment of the game. Unfortunately, those items usually go straight into the cash shop, and if they can be earned ingame, they are locked behind an epic grind so that players can be "encouraged to make convenience purchases".
It bothers me, and I am not even going to play the game. It bothers me because it shows companies don't think subs is enough and we will just see more and more cash shops in sub games. It also bothers me because it shows the new kid of the block is no better than blizzard or ea.
If ESO switches to f2p within a year I am not even going to be happy, it would show that you can't spend $200 million and release it as a P2P without switching to F2P and that's bad for everyone that prefers P2P over F2P.
I also hate the wildstar collectors edition hoverboard but everyone has mounts in their cash shop collectors edition and if I said no to mounts in collectors edition I wouldn't play any MMORPG's. Its more of an immersion breaker ala sparkle pony than about selling mounts in CE.
See you all in everquest next.....
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
I'll play ESO just the same way as I play any other MMO, regardless of the payment or monetization model.
When I feel that the game design is making the game too expensive for me, I stop playing. My problem is that I enjoy many of the the features in MMO's that can be classed as "optional and/or cosmetic", because those are often features that contribute a great deal to my enjoyment of the game. Unfortunately, those items usually go straight into the cash shop, and if they can be earned ingame, they are locked behind an epic grind so that players can be "encouraged to make convenience purchases".
Agreed, friends and co-workers tell me that in SWTOR for example, the entire game and it's content direction is now completely driven by their cash shop.
It seems that this is just the begninning with ESO and as it IS a themepark mmo it will surely follow suit.
The problem is no matter how much people on foroums might complain about all this, we all know forum users account for like 5% of a games player base and there will be untold millions who will just suck all this up and drop huge amounts of money on the cash shop. ZOS will naturally cater to the paying millions and not the 5% complaining on the forums
That is why I and my rl friends feel we may as well just cancel our pre order as this is no longer looking like the game we were sold
This is a problem plaguing the industry today. That is why it is best to wait for launch, we will only see the true business plan intentions over the long term and I am not willing to invest now.
I would hazard a guess at the launch time and spring being here that most "normal" folks maybe interested in going outside now that it is warming up . I'll see what ESO is like come late Autumn when I have more time for inside !!
Well, if you didn't pre-order the Imperial edition, and you don't feel like saving in-game money to buy one - you can just purchase a horse from their cash shop. In this interview released today Matt Firor confirms. Is this the first stepping stone of what Matt Firor calls a "variety of additional services for interested players?" Time will tell what else the cash shop offers over time, but I highly doubt they will leave it at this forever. Personally it doesn't sit well with me paying a sub and also having these cash shop purchase options for significant things (a horse is very significant in this game). And before you yell "wow did it too!", let me say 2 wrongs don't make a right.
What types of items or services can we expect to find in the Zenimax store?
The purpose of the store is to offer interested players a variety of additional services. At launch we’re going to have two items: the ability to upgrade to the Imperial Edition, and an entry level horse (Palomino colored). The horse you get in both purchases is functionally the same, but the Imperial Edition is the only way to ever get the White horse. We have the Palomino horse available to allow players to purchase a basic mount without purchasing the entire Imperial Edition.
HAHA it is so funny, reglardless of what I vote in this forum I always land in the minority.
Get it right, gamers. You are getting really, really old, mentally.
You truly misunderstand something here, greatly!
IT IS AN OPTION! NO MUST!
You still can work greatly in a game to achieve something. But this is an illusion. The items are in the game and the game gives you the illusion to work for it, making it of greater value for you, because of the invested time and the craving for the item. But the item is still there, right from the beginning, it is just obstacled by these means. A grey item compared to a purple or orange item is just a difference in code.. it simply is the same. It is just an illusion of being better indicated by color, a story to it and maybe +2 or +3 more stats. See this!
And what a cash shop like this is just providing you the OPTION, this is NO MUST, to get.. for example a horse.. earlier then getting the Same Horse ingame abit later.
You only buy time. Nothing else.
So please stay objective and dont masturbate in your own inability to look clearly into this and rather revel in nostalgia.
EDIT: And enough already with the "They LIED!!!!" posts. We have no reason at all to believe they didn't simply change their minds. Changing your position doesn't retroactively turn statements you honestly meant at the time into lies.
Obvious lies are so common in PR these days that we came up with a new name for them and call them "spin." Anyone who is aware of this and is changing their mind makes damn sure to say so in detail when they do change their minds... that is, if maintaining their credibility matters to them.
I don't see that here. I see a contradiction even in what Firor himself said: "account services and fun stuff." The $100 limited edition lore books they just announced is "fun stuff." A mount that sells in-game for 17K gold isn't.
Its an even bigger contradiction of what Sage said for damage control after the internet blew up with "Sub AND cash shop? greedy buggers!" posts after Firor's initial mention of a cash shop...especially after having said that the reason for he sub is that they wanted players to get everything for that sub. The part of Sage's statement that now sticks in my mind is the "as far as I know" part.
So, no. No indication whatsoever that this is them changing their minds and some persuasive circumstantial evidence that they were being deliberately misleading last August/September.
Will I still play the game? of course... this isn't a game changer for me. But I will also have a hard time believing anything whatsoever that comes out of Firor's and Sage's mouths... the term "lying pieces of shit" comes to mind.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I didn't have a problem with Imperial edition. That's normal to give something to the people for paying more to come in early and to have something to keep for a memory of an event. We all know that it helps recoup initial dev cost and that's why the price is higher. I didn't even have a problem with them reselling it later but that horse, that thing is not part of the Imperial package and it's separate. It's a tickle, a test, a touchstone, a tap on the right shoulder when there is a body waiting on the left shoulder to see your reaction.
There is something totally different going on when you say you will have a cash shop with only services and you let people believe that. Then weeks before you throw in a horse for the cash shop. It could have been a spade or a sparkler. It's a thing is all that matters. One thing become two becomes three. Where will it end. With mixed signals and words that are transitory it's all a pinata that bursts each time they have an interview. Makes for a captive audience if each utterance can steer the ship a different way but that's one hell of a roller coaster to pay to ride.
"And as a single leaf turns not yellow but with the silent knowledge of the whole tree" - Gibran said it better than I can. If you think this is the only leaf that will change color then you never saw fall in the Midwest.
Don't worry though. No need to respond to me and tell me how happy you are to be lied to. I'll be off thinking about another game soon enough. It might be an old one like Ryzom - I did have fun there or maybe I'll go get beat up in Darkfall and have all my crafting materials snatched. It is about the only PVP game left.
It's Zenimax coming to their senses - the idea of a pure subscription game is just impossible in todays market. It doesn't work anymore - it's an idea that is popular in some player's minds, but it's not based in reality.
If ESO stayed a 100% subscription model, the game would fail financially, Zenimax Online would have massive layoffs, it would be all around BAD.
Every game needs to maximize profits, including subscription games - cash shops are the only way to do that as no game today is going to get 10 million subs, and with $15 a month hard ceiling - devs have NO OTHER MEANS of monetizing the game - this is a recipe for failure.
So this is a GOOD thing - Zenimax is embracing reality, the idea of 100% sub with no cash shop was just a pipe dream - they realized it and corrected it.
So again, this is good for Zmax, good for the game staying around.
This has turned me 100% around - as before I was just in shock that a 200+ million dollar project would risk failure on limiting their income on sub only.
Glad Zenimax woke up to reality.
You keep making this post over and over about how a game cannot be a sub only game, and must have a cash shop to survive, but you keep ignoring the main issue being that ESO has a cash shop piled on top of the sub model. Since when do they have to have a cash shop AND a sub to survive? They don't. Clearly ESO could have opted to be F2P or B2P and those mmo's have proven to be extremely successful. But ESO is neither of those, it is a sub based game adding in a cash shop on top of it - and that is the issue.
Does ESO need a cash shop to survive as you say? Perhaps it does. But does it need a cash shop AND 15 dollars a month to be successful? Most definitely not.
Cash shop is here to stay. Face it people they don't just wanna make money they wanna make loads of money. Cash shops will be in every game soon, good or bad we will see.
I like the sub form even if I don't play them cause they give you a sence of seriousness that everything will be equal to all, but sub with cash shop I have very little respect for cause it unpredicable it could start with an ok cash shop and end up with max lvl boosts or the greatest sword.
I hope you all will play the game anyway cause it looks fun.
I pity people that belittle the true meaning of unethical business practices or immorality with something like this. Outright theft, lying after providing a good, selling knowingly defective or dangerous goods, etc....these are unethical and immoral. Not selling a stupid horse you can work for in the game. Face it it is just somwthing you do not like. That is it. There is no greater tragedy in modern society than people overstating the little things so as to belittle the true injustices.
Originally posted by Horusra I pity people that belittle the true meaning of unethical business practices or immorality with something like this. Outright theft, lying after providing a good, selling knowingly defective or dangerous goods, etc....these are unethical and immoral. Not selling a stupid horse you can work for in the game. Face it it is just somwthing you do not like. That is it. There is no greater tragedy in modern society than people overstating the little things so as to belittle the true injustices.
Lol. That's a very good description of 2014, up-to-date relative morality. Apparently lying before the good is provided is now so common that it no longer makes the immorality definition.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Iselin....did they lie or have to openly make a change. Can you cancel what you have pre-ordered? If you can then it is not immoral. Did they say it would not, release the game and then tell you? That would be closer to immoral. The first is just a change in the game you do not like.
I wish people would find more immoral and outrageous the way politicians and business join forces to eat away at our rights and liberties than a cash shop in a game. What a sad state has humankind sunk to
Originally posted by Horusra Iselin....did they lie or have to openly make a change. Can you cancel what you have pre-ordered? If you can then it is not immoral. Did they say it would not, release the game and then tell you? That would be closer to immoral. The first is just a change in the game you do not like.
No. You're misunderstanding. I actually don't care about the change itself all that much. I'm focusing exclusively on their credibility.
If last August Firor had said "account services and fun stuff...maybe mounts...we don't know yet" And Sage had said "yes you can buy some additional stuff but there won't be an in-game shop like you see in some other MMOs", I would have zero problem with yesterday's announcement.
The fact that they have revealed this at a time when we can still cancel speaks to the question of mitigating the damage - not the lie itself. Yes, it would be worse if they kept quiet and did it after April 4th. But that being worse doesn't make what they did all good.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Originally posted by Horusra Iselin....did they lie or have to openly make a change. Can you cancel what you have pre-ordered? If you can then it is not immoral. Did they say it would not, release the game and then tell you? That would be closer to immoral. The first is just a change in the game you do not like.
They did not HAVE to include a cash shop at all.
They CHOSE to.
You don't just suddenly decide to add a cash shop 3 weeks from launch on a whim. It takes time and planning which means that the cash shop has always been in plan. THAT means the promises made for what a year now have been made in the knowledge that a cash shop was always coming at launch.
THAT means they lied to their customers.
It is not a new instant appearing cash shop. The article authored by mmorpg that quotes "in-game" is wrong.
Comments
You should look into some different, healthier hobby
I bought imperial so...
it does not matter if you run md explore you are going to find sky shards and you are going to get more missions,talking to all npc`s.
I rather we focus on the intent than the actual details of purchasable goods, be it a horse, a weapon (in the future who knows) etc.
Im sry but I have to bring up a comparison between this and CRB Wildstar. Not a comparison on which game is better as that could lead to unending debate and also because I think both are good games with great potentials. But let's look at this specific cash shop aspect (and it's intent).
Both are sub based. CRB is also running a CREDD system where play time and gold can be traded among players. This create an opportunity for players to play more without CRB getting any extra money. Differently, Zenimax is doing this horse thing which create an opportunity to grab more with Zenimax getting extra money.
Now I'm not saying Zenimax is evil. But I think players have got to be careful. If you love and want to support the game please support it within reasons and make your voice heard so the game can stay on the right path and become a great game.
Voted No, it doesn't bother me.
After all, "Why walk when you can ride?" ~ Morrowind Caravaner
Sad, but expected. I'm so not touching ESO with a ten meter pole.
Shame, because I love TES franchise, but they've managed to ruin it for good.
My opinion is my own. I respect all other opinions and views equally, but keep in mind that my opinion will always be the best for me. That's why it's my opinion.
Outrageously expensive box priced subscription game.
Check
Cash shop on launch with riding skill mount.
Check
Engage Avoid Program, Disposable Income at High Risk of Depletion
Check
I'll play ESO just the same way as I play any other MMO, regardless of the payment or monetization model.
When I feel that the game design is making the game too expensive for me, I stop playing. My problem is that I enjoy many of the the features in MMO's that can be classed as "optional and/or cosmetic", because those are often features that contribute a great deal to my enjoyment of the game. Unfortunately, those items usually go straight into the cash shop, and if they can be earned ingame, they are locked behind an epic grind so that players can be "encouraged to make convenience purchases".
It bothers me, and I am not even going to play the game. It bothers me because it shows companies don't think subs is enough and we will just see more and more cash shops in sub games. It also bothers me because it shows the new kid of the block is no better than blizzard or ea.
If ESO switches to f2p within a year I am not even going to be happy, it would show that you can't spend $200 million and release it as a P2P without switching to F2P and that's bad for everyone that prefers P2P over F2P.
I also hate the wildstar collectors edition hoverboard but everyone has mounts in their cash shop collectors edition and if I said no to mounts in collectors edition I wouldn't play any MMORPG's. Its more of an immersion breaker ala sparkle pony than about selling mounts in CE.
See you all in everquest next.....
This is a problem plaguing the industry today. That is why it is best to wait for launch, we will only see the true business plan intentions over the long term and I am not willing to invest now.
I would hazard a guess at the launch time and spring being here that most "normal" folks maybe interested in going outside now that it is warming up
. I'll see what ESO is like come late Autumn when I have more time for inside 
!!
Where is the link that shows an in-game cash shop that so many posts are referring to in this thread and others.
Not an external store, they have that already - but an in-game cash shop.
HAHA it is so funny, reglardless of what I vote in this forum I always land in the minority.
Get it right, gamers. You are getting really, really old, mentally.
You truly misunderstand something here, greatly!
IT IS AN OPTION! NO MUST!
You still can work greatly in a game to achieve something. But this is an illusion. The items are in the game and the game gives you the illusion to work for it, making it of greater value for you, because of the invested time and the craving for the item. But the item is still there, right from the beginning, it is just obstacled by these means. A grey item compared to a purple or orange item is just a difference in code.. it simply is the same. It is just an illusion of being better indicated by color, a story to it and maybe +2 or +3 more stats. See this!
And what a cash shop like this is just providing you the OPTION, this is NO MUST, to get.. for example a horse.. earlier then getting the Same Horse ingame abit later.
You only buy time. Nothing else.
So please stay objective and dont masturbate in your own inability to look clearly into this and rather revel in nostalgia.
It's just a horse and Zenimax is just a company that makes games for living.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWFBqiUgspg&feature=player_detailpage
So far it is one of the most community friendly developers I have come across.
But this is about Bethesda, they are the publishers, they are making the rules about pricing
Obvious lies are so common in PR these days that we came up with a new name for them and call them "spin." Anyone who is aware of this and is changing their mind makes damn sure to say so in detail when they do change their minds... that is, if maintaining their credibility matters to them.
I don't see that here. I see a contradiction even in what Firor himself said: "account services and fun stuff." The $100 limited edition lore books they just announced is "fun stuff." A mount that sells in-game for 17K gold isn't.
Its an even bigger contradiction of what Sage said for damage control after the internet blew up with "Sub AND cash shop? greedy buggers!" posts after Firor's initial mention of a cash shop...especially after having said that the reason for he sub is that they wanted players to get everything for that sub. The part of Sage's statement that now sticks in my mind is the "as far as I know" part.
So, no. No indication whatsoever that this is them changing their minds and some persuasive circumstantial evidence that they were being deliberately misleading last August/September.
Will I still play the game? of course... this isn't a game changer for me. But I will also have a hard time believing anything whatsoever that comes out of Firor's and Sage's mouths... the term "lying pieces of shit" comes to mind.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
You keep making this post over and over about how a game cannot be a sub only game, and must have a cash shop to survive, but you keep ignoring the main issue being that ESO has a cash shop piled on top of the sub model. Since when do they have to have a cash shop AND a sub to survive? They don't. Clearly ESO could have opted to be F2P or B2P and those mmo's have proven to be extremely successful. But ESO is neither of those, it is a sub based game adding in a cash shop on top of it - and that is the issue.
Does ESO need a cash shop to survive as you say? Perhaps it does. But does it need a cash shop AND 15 dollars a month to be successful? Most definitely not.
First not a ingame cash shop there everyone thing to be on the wagon about. ESO has no cash shop.
It is account upgrades that are be taken to the extreme for the haters to have a reason to hate.
Have a nice day!
Cash shop is here to stay. Face it people they don't just wanna make money they wanna make loads of money. Cash shops will be in every game soon, good or bad we will see.
I like the sub form even if I don't play them cause they give you a sence of seriousness that everything will be equal to all, but sub with cash shop I have very little respect for cause it unpredicable it could start with an ok cash shop and end up with max lvl boosts or the greatest sword.
I hope you all will play the game anyway cause it looks fun.
Lol. That's a very good description of 2014, up-to-date relative morality. Apparently lying before the good is provided is now so common that it no longer makes the immorality definition.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
No. You're misunderstanding. I actually don't care about the change itself all that much. I'm focusing exclusively on their credibility.
If last August Firor had said "account services and fun stuff...maybe mounts...we don't know yet" And Sage had said "yes you can buy some additional stuff but there won't be an in-game shop like you see in some other MMOs", I would have zero problem with yesterday's announcement.
The fact that they have revealed this at a time when we can still cancel speaks to the question of mitigating the damage - not the lie itself. Yes, it would be worse if they kept quiet and did it after April 4th. But that being worse doesn't make what they did all good.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Lets examine the silliness of some people in this thread
If I offer you a bunch of extra crap including a horse in an Imperial Edition (aka collectors edition) that's fine..
The second I offer you one of the things from that imperial edition separate so you can get it instead, that's when your collective butthurt starts.
It is not a new instant appearing cash shop. The article authored by mmorpg that quotes "in-game" is wrong.
In other articles Zenimaz link the store to here:
https://account.elderscrollsonline.com/store
With a notification that it will be update on or before April 4th.