I hope they do, I am perfectly fine with a sub+convenience items (not p2w), if I feel that I dont have the patience to grind out 42000 gold, I have no problem spending 10$ to save me time
How would buying a faster horse be not P2W? Specifically the fastest horse in the game.
does it make you better at the game? Is it something you can only get from the shop?
It doesn't matter if it's pay to lose. They lied. That's it. You can't lie and keep trust. That cash shop will be full soon enough if they can break their promise they can do it again.
Yes, I too find a lie more damaging then a cash shop. The lie is what is the worst thing you can do to customers.
You see, if they were to say that a cash shop was going to be in game from day one, we would have been able to trust their word still....
Once you lie to your customers they get insecurity. When you lie to them about a cash shop being in game or not and break their trsut, they don't know if you'll go as far as Perfect Wrold goes with cash shops in their game.
If they tell you and promise you their cash shop will not be as far as Perfect Worlds P2W cash shops, who will believe them after they have already lied once?
So bottom line is. A lie is worse then any feature in game. I hope they learn their lesson with this little horsey they added.
Originally posted by Celdryn They gave you the option to buy a basic horse...you get to quests quicker so you level quicker. Could just enjoy the game and enjoy your time in it? Just a suggestion and the best part is you don't even have to buy the horse that is I believe..5.99?
If that was the extent of it, I'd probably be okay with it.
My concern is in PvP - these horses are fully utilizable there, by all accounts. Players who bought a horse for extra $$ will have an enormous advantage in World PvP over those who haven't yet saved for 17k, or 40k... whatever it is. Both chasing other players down, escaping from others and just being able to get where the action is much faster.
You want to sell me a name-change or a new skin for the mount I've already bought with gold - vanity stuff like that - that's fine. Stuff that gives a mechanical advantage? That's a deal-breaker for me. Forget it.
Not much has changed in this regard, this still would have been the case regardless of this announcement. The imperial addition has been available for quite a while now. It's also selling really well. If anything this helps alleviate that original imbalance.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Because they added this in-game shop that sells mechanical advantages to players in a subscription-based game... they've *lost* my $60 and probably at least 23 months of payment over the next few years (I'm sure I'd be on and off).
That's... -$405 over the next 2 years. You're gonna have to buy a lot of horses to make up for that, bro.
Calling it a mechanical advantage is a crock. The horses you can earn in game are better. And having a horse isn't going to cause you to win any fights. You don't get better at killing or not getting killed just because you got to the site of the battle more quickly. This is all much ado about nothing.
Explain to me how I catch a player in PvP who bought a horse when I haven't yet gotten 17k to buy my own?
Or explain to me how I escape from one?
It's a mechanical advantage until I get 17k. You can deny it all you want, but it isn't gonna make my guy move any faster in the above situation.
In a F2P game, that's fine - not gonna fly when I'm shelling out $60 just to play my first month.
I'm with you on this. I was seriously considering giving the game more of a go, but I would rather just go back to even WoW than deal with this garbage.
I hope they do, I am perfectly fine with a sub+convenience items (not p2w), if I feel that I dont have the patience to grind out 42000 gold, I have no problem spending 10$ to save me time
How would buying a faster horse be not P2W? Specifically the fastest horse in the game.
does it make you better at the game? Is it something you can only get from the shop?
It doesn't matter if it's pay to lose. They lied. That's it. You can't lie and keep trust. That cash shop will be full soon enough if they can break their promise they can do it again.
Yes, I too find a lie more damaging then a cash shop. The lie is what is the worst thing you can do to customers.
You see, if they were to say that a cash shop was going to be in game from day one, we would have been able to trust their word still....
Once you lie to your customers they get insecurity. When you lie to them about a cash shop being in game or not and break their trsut, they don't know if you'll go as far as Perfect Wrold goes with cash shops in their game.
If they tell you and promise you their cash shop will not be as far as Perfect Worlds P2W cash shops, who will believe them after they have already lied once?
So bottom line is. A lie is worse then any feature in game. I hope they learn their lesson with this little horsey they added.
Exactly
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Originally posted by Celdryn They gave you the option to buy a basic horse...you get to quests quicker so you level quicker. Could just enjoy the game and enjoy your time in it? Just a suggestion and the best part is you don't even have to buy the horse that is I believe..5.99?
If that was the extent of it, I'd probably be okay with it.
My concern is in PvP - these horses are fully utilizable there, by all accounts. Players who bought a horse for extra $$ will have an enormous advantage in World PvP over those who haven't yet saved for 17k, or 40k... whatever it is. Both chasing other players down, escaping from others and just being able to get where the action is much faster.
You want to sell me a name-change or a new skin for the mount I've already bought with gold - vanity stuff like that - that's fine. Stuff that gives a mechanical advantage? That's a deal-breaker for me. Forget it.
Not much has changed in this regard, this still would have been the case regardless of this announcement. The imperial addition has been available for quite a while now. It's also selling really well.
Who wouldnt want a speed buff for only a few more dollars?
The Imp Edition was why they added the palomino. People complained that it was a pay-to win thing. What did they do? Put another horse on the cash shop.
Originally posted by umcorianExplain to me how I catch a player in PvP who bought a horse when I haven't yet gotten 17k to buy my own?Or explain to me how I escape from one?It's a mechanical advantage until I get 17k. You can deny it all you want, but it isn't gonna make my guy move any faster in the above situation.In a F2P game, that's fine - not gonna fly when I'm shelling out $60 just to play my first month.
Why do you need to catch them? PvP in ESO is about controlling static locations. If they want to run away from the location of the fight, that's a good thing, you can fight somebody who is still a problem. (Do we even know for sure that you can call your horse while you're in the middle of a fight?)
You're arguing semantics. I don't care about semantics.
Me: "This is not okay because it gives a mechanical advantage." You: "It is okay because, in theory, the mechanical advantage you're given is not always going to be useful."
You've acknowledged that a mechanical advantage is being given in exchange for real money. You're trying to convince me it's not a big deal.
I don't care how big a deal it is - I'm not playing a subscription game that sells mechanical advantages (no matter how small) for a premium. End of story.
I hope they do, I am perfectly fine with a sub+convenience items (not p2w), if I feel that I dont have the patience to grind out 42000 gold, I have no problem spending 10$ to save me time
How would buying a faster horse be not P2W? Specifically the fastest horse in the game.
does it make you better at the game? Is it something you can only get from the shop?
It doesn't matter if it's pay to lose. They lied. That's it. You can't lie and keep trust. That cash shop will be full soon enough if they can break their promise they can do it again.
Yes, I too find a lie more damaging then a cash shop. The lie is what is the worst thing you can do to customers.
You see, if they were to say that a cash shop was going to be in game from day one, we would have been able to trust their word still....
Once you lie to your customers they get insecurity. When you lie to them about a cash shop being in game or not and break their trsut, they don't know if you'll go as far as Perfect Wrold goes with cash shops in their game.
If they tell you and promise you their cash shop will not be as far as Perfect Worlds P2W cash shops, who will believe them after they have already lied once?
So bottom line is. A lie is worse then any feature in game. I hope they learn their lesson with this little horsey they added.
I know alot of people are bitching in this thread but I betcha maybe less then 5% actually don't play over this........
Only way companies are gonna learn is if people don't actually buy this mount and I can tell you right now there is gonna be plenty of people who purchase this mount from the cash you know it, I know it, we all know it.....
I know I miss looking at another player and having respect for what they accomplished.
You can still do this. If you see someone on a horse that isn't white or palomino, you know they didn't pay for it with real money.
Cash shops or buying from Gold farmers, chances are many have paid with real money. This is just something that bugs me greatly about MMOs for a long time now.
You're arguing philosophy. I don't care about philosophy.
Me: "This is not okay because it gives a mechanical advantage." You: "It is okay because, in theory, the mechanical advantage you're given is not always going to be useful."
You've acknowledged that a mechanical advantage is being given in exchange for real money. You're trying to convince me it's not a big deal.
I don't care how big a deal it is - I'm not playing a subscription game that sells mechanical advantages (no matter how small) for a premium. End of story.
I would frame it more as you're arguing mountain, I'm arguing mole hill. I would say that if this issue is enough to get you not to play the game, you must not have been that excited about it in the first place. By your own admission, even if it is an issue, it is an inherently temporary one which is solved as soon as you save up enough money for a horse. You're deciding to reject the potential of hundreds or thousands of hours of fun over the chance that you *might* be at a slight disadvantage for the first 10-20 of those hours.
EDIT: And enough already with the "They LIED!!!!" posts. We have no reason at all to believe they didn't simply change their minds. Changing your position doesn't retroactively turn statements you honestly meant at the time into lies.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
Its not such a big deal. Why does it bother everyone so much?
Maybe there are people out there who didn't pay for their early access or mounts already, so they are being offered separately. Whats the problem?
Many people have a problem with double dipping. SO that much is self explanatory. As for the big deal, the biggest deal here is the complete 180 by zenimax.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Originally posted by bcbully Yeah, you'd hope that with a sub, cash wouldn't be allowed in game.
You people need to calm down. It's just a damn horse. EQ2 had mounts available in their cash shop for years before they went to the sub or F2P billing models. As long as they don't sell items that provide real advantages in game it shouldn't be a big deal.
Easy fix don't buy anything then. Myself I pre-ordered the Imp version and don't care for the white steed and appreciate the choice of something different, it helps me and the game. I have gray hairs from rl these issues are to trivial to pine over.
Originally posted by niceguy3978 I thought they weren't going to have a cash shop at launch? I was expecting charges for services such as name changes and the like, but I could have sworn they said they wouldn't have a cash shop at launch. My imagination running wild again.
They did say that
Now every doodlesnap that came in here saying free to play - cash shop was right.
I linked that interview over and over sticking up for this game. I was the FOOL. I was the dumb one because all those people were now right. This game is just all the others. You won guys, happy? When you have your free game you'll be even more happy. That's life.
How does that feel huh, defend this game and they turn around and do this. I'm going to have to chart this one down as the worst thing I've seen a company do so close to launch. I don't see any reason to go into the beta if I'm not going to be playing the game. Guess I can work all weekend like my boss wants. Goodness knows there are no subscription games left for me.
You're overreacting for a horse that was already being sold with the imperial edition. Why would it matter if people can buy a horse after the fact?
You need to relax. Another player buying a horse is not going to ruin the game for you.
EDIT: And enough already with the "They LIED!!!!" posts. We have no reason at all to believe they didn't simply change their minds. Changing your position doesn't retroactively turn statements you honestly meant at the time into lies.
It's not as easy as that either.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
You're arguing philosophy. I don't care about philosophy.
Me: "This is not okay because it gives a mechanical advantage." You: "It is okay because, in theory, the mechanical advantage you're given is not always going to be useful."
You've acknowledged that a mechanical advantage is being given in exchange for real money. You're trying to convince me it's not a big deal.
I don't care how big a deal it is - I'm not playing a subscription game that sells mechanical advantages (no matter how small) for a premium. End of story.
I would frame it more as you're arguing mountain, I'm arguing mole hill. I would say that if this issue is enough to get you not to play the game, you must not have been that excited about it in the first place. By your own admission, even if it is an issue, it is an inherently temporary one which is solved as soon as you save up enough money for a horse. You're deciding to reject the potential of hundreds or thousands of hours of fun over the chance that you *might* be at a slight disadvantage for the first 10-20 of those hours.
That's fair - especially the part where you said I'm not too excited in the first place. But let's be reasonable: are people really still falling for hype these days? Do I have to *really* be excited for a game before it's even out before my opinion is valid? I was going to buy the game. That should be enough to get me a seat at the table of this discussion.
The fastest way they could close my open mind is to have a full pay-to-play subscription model that sells mechanical advantages - no matter how slight or how temporary - at a premium.
You're arguing philosophy. I don't care about philosophy.
Me: "This is not okay because it gives a mechanical advantage." You: "It is okay because, in theory, the mechanical advantage you're given is not always going to be useful."
You've acknowledged that a mechanical advantage is being given in exchange for real money. You're trying to convince me it's not a big deal.
I don't care how big a deal it is - I'm not playing a subscription game that sells mechanical advantages (no matter how small) for a premium. End of story.
I would frame it more as you're arguing mountain, I'm arguing mole hill. I would say that if this issue is enough to get you not to play the game, you must not have been that excited about it in the first place. By your own admission, even if it is an issue, it is an inherently temporary one which is solved as soon as you save up enough money for a horse. You're deciding to reject the potential of hundreds or thousands of hours of fun over the chance that you *might* be at a slight disadvantage for the first 10-20 of those hours.
EDIT: And enough already with the "They LIED!!!!" posts. We have no reason at all to believe they didn't simply change their minds. Changing your position doesn't retroactively turn statements you honestly meant at the time into lies.
So where do you draw the line then? Or do you? What would it take from them for you to say hey "this isn't right, i dont like this." Don't give me some crazy exaggerated crap either. Give me a reasonable situation on a spectrum.
The problem is they aren't going to suddenly start slaughtering kittens on twitch (obv exaggerated). They will gradually see what they can get away with and before you know it you'll be spending alot more that you originally though you would have and things will have changed alot more than you expected.
Yeah this definitely is bad news, not because it's just a horse but because it starts with just a horse and ends up being a full blown cash shop. I was fine with them having the shop for character appearance changes, renaming, etc. but selling actual in game items in a cash shop def. sends me a bad impression and even before it's launched. Cash shops are abominations and i curse the jack off who first implemented one and i also curse the asshats who use them. If no one used them, we would never see them in the genre again. Hopefully, it's nothing more than Zenimax making the crybabies who couldn't pay an extra $4 dollars (that's right, after %20 off that you can get on greenmanmag it's a whopping $4 extra) for the IE happy.
I'm shocked that they did not wait untail after launch to do this.... I bet they lose a lot of money even if they pull the horse off the store now, because of customer trust and canceling pre orders.
1. Anybody who bought Imperial Edition already bought a horse for cash.
2. Buying horse is just an alternative to buying full Imperial Edition upgrade. It gives you an option to not buy Imperial race, Rings of Mara and Mudcrab pet, if the only thing you want is a horse.
3. It's way better than buying in game house for hundreds of $, or buing space ships for real money in a game centered around flying space ships, years before the game release.
4. (and I will go with a bold font here, becouse that's how important it is) Does it make a game less or more fun?
It doesn't for me. I want to play this game becouse it's an Elder Scrolls world in a multiplayer surrounding. I want it to be high quality, immersive, amusing and entertaining. If they make a cash shop that will stop the game from beeing like that, than it will bother me.
The important thing is the quality of the game, not if there's a pink mudcrab, or yellow horse availble in a cash shop. ( Although a yellow horse would be somewhat immersion breaking... on the other hand, pink mudcrab sounds great )
Comments
Yes, I too find a lie more damaging then a cash shop. The lie is what is the worst thing you can do to customers.
You see, if they were to say that a cash shop was going to be in game from day one, we would have been able to trust their word still....
Once you lie to your customers they get insecurity. When you lie to them about a cash shop being in game or not and break their trsut, they don't know if you'll go as far as Perfect Wrold goes with cash shops in their game.
If they tell you and promise you their cash shop will not be as far as Perfect Worlds P2W cash shops, who will believe them after they have already lied once?
So bottom line is. A lie is worse then any feature in game. I hope they learn their lesson with this little horsey they added.
Not much has changed in this regard, this still would have been the case regardless of this announcement. The imperial addition has been available for quite a while now. It's also selling really well. If anything this helps alleviate that original imbalance.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I'm with you on this. I was seriously considering giving the game more of a go, but I would rather just go back to even WoW than deal with this garbage.
Exactly
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Who wouldnt want a speed buff for only a few more dollars?
The Imp Edition was why they added the palomino. People complained that it was a pay-to win thing. What did they do? Put another horse on the cash shop.
You're arguing semantics. I don't care about semantics.
Me: "This is not okay because it gives a mechanical advantage."
You: "It is okay because, in theory, the mechanical advantage you're given is not always going to be useful."
You've acknowledged that a mechanical advantage is being given in exchange for real money. You're trying to convince me it's not a big deal.
I don't care how big a deal it is - I'm not playing a subscription game that sells mechanical advantages (no matter how small) for a premium. End of story.
I know alot of people are bitching in this thread but I betcha maybe less then 5% actually don't play over this........
Only way companies are gonna learn is if people don't actually buy this mount and I can tell you right now there is gonna be plenty of people who purchase this mount from the cash you know it, I know it, we all know it.....
Cash shops or buying from Gold farmers, chances are many have paid with real money. This is just something that bugs me greatly about MMOs for a long time now.
Its not such a big deal. Why does it bother everyone so much?
Maybe there are people out there who didn't pay for their early access or mounts already, so they are being offered separately. Whats the problem?
I would frame it more as you're arguing mountain, I'm arguing mole hill. I would say that if this issue is enough to get you not to play the game, you must not have been that excited about it in the first place. By your own admission, even if it is an issue, it is an inherently temporary one which is solved as soon as you save up enough money for a horse. You're deciding to reject the potential of hundreds or thousands of hours of fun over the chance that you *might* be at a slight disadvantage for the first 10-20 of those hours.
EDIT: And enough already with the "They LIED!!!!" posts. We have no reason at all to believe they didn't simply change their minds. Changing your position doesn't retroactively turn statements you honestly meant at the time into lies.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
Many people have a problem with double dipping. SO that much is self explanatory. As for the big deal, the biggest deal here is the complete 180 by zenimax.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
You people need to calm down. It's just a damn horse. EQ2 had mounts available in their cash shop for years before they went to the sub or F2P billing models. As long as they don't sell items that provide real advantages in game it shouldn't be a big deal.
The writing was on the wall when they announce the Imperial Edition.
If they had no trouble going back on their "no paygating" statements. Why would anyone expect anything else with their "no cashshop" statements?
You're overreacting for a horse that was already being sold with the imperial edition. Why would it matter if people can buy a horse after the fact?
You need to relax. Another player buying a horse is not going to ruin the game for you.
Fixing broken trust is a tad harder than that.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
It's not as easy as that either.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
That's fair - especially the part where you said I'm not too excited in the first place. But let's be reasonable: are people really still falling for hype these days? Do I have to *really* be excited for a game before it's even out before my opinion is valid? I was going to buy the game. That should be enough to get me a seat at the table of this discussion.
The fastest way they could close my open mind is to have a full pay-to-play subscription model that sells mechanical advantages - no matter how slight or how temporary - at a premium.
That's a mountain for me - abso-fucking-lutely.
So where do you draw the line then? Or do you? What would it take from them for you to say hey "this isn't right, i dont like this." Don't give me some crazy exaggerated crap either. Give me a reasonable situation on a spectrum.
The problem is they aren't going to suddenly start slaughtering kittens on twitch (obv exaggerated). They will gradually see what they can get away with and before you know it you'll be spending alot more that you originally though you would have and things will have changed alot more than you expected.
MMOs Played: FFXI,Age of Conan, Aion, Rift, SWTOR, TERA, TSW, GW2
Playing:None
Waiting For: Wildstar, The Repopulation, Archeage, TESO, Warhammer 40K:EC, EQN
I'm shocked that they did not wait untail after launch to do this.... I bet they lose a lot of money even if they pull the horse off the store now, because of customer trust and canceling pre orders.
1. Anybody who bought Imperial Edition already bought a horse for cash.
2. Buying horse is just an alternative to buying full Imperial Edition upgrade. It gives you an option to not buy Imperial race, Rings of Mara and Mudcrab pet, if the only thing you want is a horse.
3. It's way better than buying in game house for hundreds of $, or buing space ships for real money in a game centered around flying space ships, years before the game release.
4. (and I will go with a bold font here, becouse that's how important it is) Does it make a game less or more fun?
It doesn't for me. I want to play this game becouse it's an Elder Scrolls world in a multiplayer surrounding. I want it to be high quality, immersive, amusing and entertaining. If they make a cash shop that will stop the game from beeing like that, than it will bother me.
The important thing is the quality of the game, not if there's a pink mudcrab, or yellow horse availble in a cash shop. ( Although a yellow horse would be somewhat immersion breaking... on the other hand, pink mudcrab sounds great )
I think Zenimax is really missing a unique opportunity here.
If instead of rthe "Palomino horse" they put in "dead imperial horse", they'd sell TONS. I mean just to this forum alone!
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
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