Sucks for you. Raiding isn't just the best thing in an MMO - its one of the best times you can have in gaming. It's laughable that some people think endgame is a problem. Its a solution.
I'd like to see this Brianna Royce come up with a better solution then raiding at end-game. Guild Wars 2 tried its hardest to do away with end-game grinding, but it kind of didn't work. Loads of players got really bored and stopped playing. Technology doesn't really exist to keep people playing beyond grinding for stuff. (Except maybe what EQ Next is doing, with the whole Minecraft-esque building/creativity aspect.)
Originally posted by GuyClinch Sucks for you. Raiding isn't just the best thing in an MMO - its one of the best times you can have in gaming. It's laughable that some people think endgame is a problem. Its a solution.
"best" is subjective. Not everyone likes raiding. Some may want to do battleground, arena, or just 5-man dungeons.
Originally posted by GuyClinch Sucks for you. Raiding isn't just the best thing in an MMO - its one of the best times you can have in gaming. It's laughable that some people think endgame is a problem. Its a solution.
Says who? Raiding sucks, it's a horrible waste of time.
Originally posted by GuyClinch Sucks for you. Raiding isn't just the best thing in an MMO - its one of the best times you can have in gaming. It's laughable that some people think endgame is a problem. Its a solution.
Lol, no it isn't but to each their own.
Raiding is probably the most boring thing to do after you've done it a couple times. It's just mundane and repetitive waste of time.
Originally posted by GuyClinch Sucks for you. Raiding isn't just the best thing in an MMO - its one of the best times you can have in gaming. It's laughable that some people think endgame is a problem. Its a solution.
Lol, no it isn't but to each their own.
Raiding is probably the most boring thing to do after you've done it a couple times. It's just mundane and repetitive waste of time.
Raiding is the best time because ideally its both challenging and has the an intense social aspect. So its the perfect endgame content for MMOs. It's true its not the best for everyone but that's generally because they can't find the right people or find enough time. But if you have that - its the best experience you can have gaming.
This is why games like WoW tried to create 'raiding for everyone'. It failed but it was a laudable idea. The thinking was that if you could get everyone to experience the best of raiding you would have a bunch of very happy players. It's just not realistic for most people who will never find a good guild or content that's challenging for them but yet not to hard for others.
Really this holds true even for games that don't technically have raiding. For example the best PvE experience I had in GW2 was the Marionette event. Its very much like an open raid of sorts. But it was hard to find the right people to do it with - or to spend the time to get it done.
I don't think endgame is as big a problem as the fact that most players these days treat games as jobs instead of games.
Everyone is in such a hurry to finish quests, dungeons, raids that it's like going to work: get done as fast as possible so you can go home.
I used to group up for everything, even the most easy or mundane quests, just for the fun of playing with others, now I hardly ever group for anything cause I don't like being constantly rushed through at the speed of light. If I see something interesting I want to go check it out, if I see some ore I want to stop and get it, if it's my first time in a certain dungeon I want to hear the story or lore associated with it, but these days most players have zero patience for waiting an extra few seconds.
Before you join a group nowadays you better have food, drink, and a catheter on hand.
Like the other poster said, we are the reason devs design games this way.
While UO was the first real mainstream example of a true open world MMO. I feel it was SWG (pre nonsense) that truely defined what a sandbox is and what is missing in gaming today.
In SWG, yeah you had all the normal combat options of killing mobs or players... however it had a whole other side to it where you can spend your entire gaming career having never stepped out of town and be an Entertainer in a cantina, or have fields of moisture farms and spend an eternity trying to perfect your crafting so you could corner the market, and unlike games today, word was spread about there to get the best items among the community.
This is lacking today in a harsh way... the games with open world sandbox elements like say Darkfall, are marketed as a griefers paradise... You're either running around all day in a clan or your constantly running to the bank to redsupply your naked body because you dared run off on your own...
Perhaps games like The Repopulation, Pathfinder, EQN, will have a thriving ecology where as we have options that support various game play styles and are not pigeonholed by very linear options.
In themepark MMOs the driving force is seeing the content. If you can see everything in no time, there's nothing left to log on for.
End game appeals to players because seeing content slows down significantly, and requires some effort (didn't want to say 'work' since some of you would go nuts).
If we are offered a themepark MMO where levels don't exist and seeing next 5 man takes time and effort in previous dungeons, i guarantee it'll be a success. That's basically the journey we all love but the entire process would be an 'end game'.
The first 2 years I played Everquest, in 99 and 2000, maybe even 2001 - endgame (dragons!) was definately a motivating factor for playing. Wanting to one day be in a guild that could kill those epic creatures. It was motivating my gameplay, not detracting from it in the slightest. Thats because there was a whole plethora of other things significant to my characters strength and competitiveness in the mmo, than just endgame rewards.
There wasnt anything negative about endgame being in the game.
The problem only arises when endgame is the end all and be all of the ENTIRE game. - If you look at early mmo's that have had the longest time running subscriptions and had the highest, and even positive retention rates over their first few years of retail, you will find that endgame while being important, was not the most important part of the game. (although one can argue that world of warcraft very quickly by mainstreaming the genre, removed as much of the old school mmo content, that could cause conflict - fx non instanced grouping/raiding etc - and that this trend has continued to almost ridiculous levels to this day)
If the only way to grow your avatar/toon/character is down to epic loots, and those only come from end game raiding then OP is right, but not because endgame is bad, but because the mmo's designed in this fashion are cheap imitations of what originally made the genre be anything worth paying attention to.
If you have character development that doesnt only rely on endgame, but fx rewards time invested in your character in other ways, while still making those rewards significant for overall gameplay (Im not talking about collecting pets here) - then players can build on their toons, recieve gratification and be motivated by more than just "making" it to that place where you just get a spot in raids a few nights a week.
When I ultimately joined a top raiding guild in 2002 it was mainly due to the time I had spent grouping with people from those guilds, while strenghtening my character significantly through AAs. My toon was thus strong enough without the epic loots, to warrant a trial with the guild.
In todays mmo's you dont have those options, you probably wouldnt even talk very much with people while grouping because the game isnt wired for much social communication at all. Somehow because "we" dont want it, and rather let the UI work for us through auto-groups (group-finder) /kick options and instanced pve play.
To me the worst thing that happened to MMO's was the shaving off of the social parts of actually sharing a gameworld with other people. - The trimming down of any other rewards from playing except phat loot. - The sad fact that your character doesnt gain strength past max lvl, from anything but the loot your aquire (and possibly your own skill increasing). It is lazy game design, cookie cutter, made by people who honestly should try to think out of the box, when they claim they do so, rather than keeping to this boring recipe of epic loots> everything else.
To me the worst thing that happened to MMO's was the shaving off of the social parts of actually sharing a gameworld with other people. - The trimming down of any other rewards from playing except phat loot. - The sad fact that your character doesnt gain strength past max lvl, from anything but the loot your aquire (and possibly your own skill increasing). It is lazy game design, cookie cutter, made by people who honestly should try to think out of the box, when they claim they do so, rather than keeping to this boring recipe of epic loots> everything else.
No .. it is designing to the audience preference. In fact, it is not lazy to put in LFD/LFR .. because you that is extra coding for the dev.
They are doing work so that players don't have to (social + chat to get groups). Personally, i think it is great. No longer i need to talk to anyone to get into a group and see content.
Comments
"best" is subjective. Not everyone likes raiding. Some may want to do battleground, arena, or just 5-man dungeons.
Says who? Raiding sucks, it's a horrible waste of time.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Lol, no it isn't but to each their own.
Raiding is probably the most boring thing to do after you've done it a couple times. It's just mundane and repetitive waste of time.
Raiding is the best time because ideally its both challenging and has the an intense social aspect. So its the perfect endgame content for MMOs. It's true its not the best for everyone but that's generally because they can't find the right people or find enough time. But if you have that - its the best experience you can have gaming.
This is why games like WoW tried to create 'raiding for everyone'. It failed but it was a laudable idea. The thinking was that if you could get everyone to experience the best of raiding you would have a bunch of very happy players. It's just not realistic for most people who will never find a good guild or content that's challenging for them but yet not to hard for others.
Really this holds true even for games that don't technically have raiding. For example the best PvE experience I had in GW2 was the Marionette event. Its very much like an open raid of sorts. But it was hard to find the right people to do it with - or to spend the time to get it done.
I don't think endgame is as big a problem as the fact that most players these days treat games as jobs instead of games.
Everyone is in such a hurry to finish quests, dungeons, raids that it's like going to work: get done as fast as possible so you can go home.
I used to group up for everything, even the most easy or mundane quests, just for the fun of playing with others, now I hardly ever group for anything cause I don't like being constantly rushed through at the speed of light. If I see something interesting I want to go check it out, if I see some ore I want to stop and get it, if it's my first time in a certain dungeon I want to hear the story or lore associated with it, but these days most players have zero patience for waiting an extra few seconds.
Before you join a group nowadays you better have food, drink, and a catheter on hand.
Like the other poster said, we are the reason devs design games this way.
While UO was the first real mainstream example of a true open world MMO. I feel it was SWG (pre nonsense) that truely defined what a sandbox is and what is missing in gaming today.
In SWG, yeah you had all the normal combat options of killing mobs or players... however it had a whole other side to it where you can spend your entire gaming career having never stepped out of town and be an Entertainer in a cantina, or have fields of moisture farms and spend an eternity trying to perfect your crafting so you could corner the market, and unlike games today, word was spread about there to get the best items among the community.
This is lacking today in a harsh way... the games with open world sandbox elements like say Darkfall, are marketed as a griefers paradise... You're either running around all day in a clan or your constantly running to the bank to redsupply your naked body because you dared run off on your own...
Perhaps games like The Repopulation, Pathfinder, EQN, will have a thriving ecology where as we have options that support various game play styles and are not pigeonholed by very linear options.
What are your other Hobbies?
Gaming is Dirt Cheap compared to this...
In themepark MMOs the driving force is seeing the content. If you can see everything in no time, there's nothing left to log on for.
End game appeals to players because seeing content slows down significantly, and requires some effort (didn't want to say 'work' since some of you would go nuts).
If we are offered a themepark MMO where levels don't exist and seeing next 5 man takes time and effort in previous dungeons, i guarantee it'll be a success. That's basically the journey we all love but the entire process would be an 'end game'.
I dont agree with OP at all.
The first 2 years I played Everquest, in 99 and 2000, maybe even 2001 - endgame (dragons!) was definately a motivating factor for playing. Wanting to one day be in a guild that could kill those epic creatures. It was motivating my gameplay, not detracting from it in the slightest. Thats because there was a whole plethora of other things significant to my characters strength and competitiveness in the mmo, than just endgame rewards.
There wasnt anything negative about endgame being in the game.
The problem only arises when endgame is the end all and be all of the ENTIRE game. - If you look at early mmo's that have had the longest time running subscriptions and had the highest, and even positive retention rates over their first few years of retail, you will find that endgame while being important, was not the most important part of the game. (although one can argue that world of warcraft very quickly by mainstreaming the genre, removed as much of the old school mmo content, that could cause conflict - fx non instanced grouping/raiding etc - and that this trend has continued to almost ridiculous levels to this day)
If the only way to grow your avatar/toon/character is down to epic loots, and those only come from end game raiding then OP is right, but not because endgame is bad, but because the mmo's designed in this fashion are cheap imitations of what originally made the genre be anything worth paying attention to.
If you have character development that doesnt only rely on endgame, but fx rewards time invested in your character in other ways, while still making those rewards significant for overall gameplay (Im not talking about collecting pets here) - then players can build on their toons, recieve gratification and be motivated by more than just "making" it to that place where you just get a spot in raids a few nights a week.
When I ultimately joined a top raiding guild in 2002 it was mainly due to the time I had spent grouping with people from those guilds, while strenghtening my character significantly through AAs. My toon was thus strong enough without the epic loots, to warrant a trial with the guild.
In todays mmo's you dont have those options, you probably wouldnt even talk very much with people while grouping because the game isnt wired for much social communication at all. Somehow because "we" dont want it, and rather let the UI work for us through auto-groups (group-finder) /kick options and instanced pve play.
To me the worst thing that happened to MMO's was the shaving off of the social parts of actually sharing a gameworld with other people. - The trimming down of any other rewards from playing except phat loot. - The sad fact that your character doesnt gain strength past max lvl, from anything but the loot your aquire (and possibly your own skill increasing). It is lazy game design, cookie cutter, made by people who honestly should try to think out of the box, when they claim they do so, rather than keeping to this boring recipe of epic loots> everything else.
No .. it is designing to the audience preference. In fact, it is not lazy to put in LFD/LFR .. because you that is extra coding for the dev.
They are doing work so that players don't have to (social + chat to get groups). Personally, i think it is great. No longer i need to talk to anyone to get into a group and see content.