I would also like to point out that to rez players takes 1 inventory slot out of potentially 120 instead or 1 ability slot out of 10.
Spending 4 skill points lets you rez for free once an hour and automatically fills soul gems without the need for an ability. You can still use the ability if you want to fill soul gems faster. Which is an incredible convenience for a mechanic that use to be restricted not just to an ability, but a select few classes.
Top tier empty soul gems cost around 200 gold. At V10 that is a pittance. Even at level 10 gaining 200 gold takes a marginal amount of time. Having enchantments on your items is icing on the cake and has always been this way in ES games. You want more power, keep your enchants powered, but it does not break the game to run with weapons without enchants active.
Regardless of the price tag, forcing the healer to pay to be able to doing one of the basic things any healer should be able to, is retarded. And please don't use excuses like "always been this way in ES games" - there are plenty of features from all the prevous ES games that are NOT in this one.
I enjoy the mechanic... it makes the game seem more realistic.. in a fantasy universe reviving the dead takes a lot of energy and power... so being able to use life energy taken from mobs to revive fallen allies is amazing... otherwise.. it would be the typical op healer rez mechanic.
/facepalm
What's more realistic to star wars, fighting Stormtroopers or fighting klingons? I mean it's just fantasy, why can't they throw some klingons into a star wars game? Such petty realism isn't needed is it?
Maybe not for you... but as others have said on this thread.. such things would take away immersion.... and it feels really fantasy like and less game like for you to use a soul crystal/gem and leech life from fallen enemies in order to rez yourself or others.
What's more realistic to star wars, fighting Stormtroopers or fighting klingons? I mean it's just fantasy, why can't they throw some klingons into a star wars game? Such petty realism isn't needed is it?
Maybe not for you... but as others have said on this thread.. such things would take away immersion.... and it feels really fantasy like and less game like for you to use a soul crystal/gem and leech life from fallen enemies in order to rez yourself or others.
Eh, I was attempting (obviously poorly?) to reinforce your point.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
What's more realistic to star wars, fighting Stormtroopers or fighting klingons? I mean it's just fantasy, why can't they throw some klingons into a star wars game? Such petty realism isn't needed is it?
Maybe not for you... but as others have said on this thread.. such things would take away immersion.... and it feels really fantasy like and less game like for you to use a soul crystal/gem and leech life from fallen enemies in order to rez yourself or others.
Eh, I was attempting (obviously poorly?) to reinforce your point.
My fault.. you were responding to his post not mine.. i thought you were responding directly to mine.. that is why i failed to see the sarcasm.
What's more realistic to star wars, fighting Stormtroopers or fighting klingons? I mean it's just fantasy, why can't they throw some klingons into a star wars game? Such petty realism isn't needed is it?
Maybe not for you... but as others have said on this thread.. such things would take away immersion.... and it feels really fantasy like and less game like for you to use a soul crystal/gem and leech life from fallen enemies in order to rez yourself or others.
Eh, I was attempting (obviously poorly?) to reinforce your point.
My fault.. you were responding to his post not mine.. i thought you were responding directly to mine.. that is why i failed to see the sarcasm.
No biggie we all do it from time to time.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I would also like to point out that to rez players takes 1 inventory slot out of potentially 120 instead or 1 ability slot out of 10.
Spending 4 skill points lets you rez for free once an hour and automatically fills soul gems without the need for an ability. You can still use the ability if you want to fill soul gems faster. Which is an incredible convenience for a mechanic that use to be restricted not just to an ability, but a select few classes.
Top tier empty soul gems cost around 200 gold. At V10 that is a pittance. Even at level 10 gaining 200 gold takes a marginal amount of time. Having enchantments on your items is icing on the cake and has always been this way in ES games. You want more power, keep your enchants powered, but it does not break the game to run with weapons without enchants active.
Regardless of the price tag, forcing the healer to pay to be able to doing one of the basic things any healer should be able to, is retarded. And please don't use excuses like "always been this way in ES games" - there are plenty of features from all the prevous ES games that are NOT in this one.
It does not make a healer pay, it makes EVERY player responsible for themselves and those they are closely aligned to. You have a choice on whether to rez someone if you have a soul shard. It removes the dependency on a single type of class while adding a double duty item (enchantment recharge/rez) creating a rather convenient mechanic.
You don't HAVE to purchase a single stone if you don't want to. You can just use the stones you find or mooch of other people. It gives death more meaning in PvP while allowing convenience in PvE.
There seems to be two sides in this discussion.
1) Those that understand meaningful play requires obstacles.
2) Those that want no obstacles or challenges at the cost of convenience for personal play.
I find #2 rather boring and self defeating for an MMO.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
So you play characters who are the type that walk into a house and gather every last item with a hyperactive zeal? Part of the challenge and involvement with an MMORPG is getting to know what item is valuable to you and what can be looked over. It's not a chore. It is a knowledge that is tempered through time and devotion.
I hardly think collecting items off the ground involves "hyperactive zeal" in any case, but yes, I do prefer to loot everything as it is more convenient and efficient. I am not sure why I should prefer tedious make work over efficiency. The overwhelming majority of MMORPG gamers are not role players, so let's nip that insinuation in the bud. There is nothing about having an adequate inventory system that precludes me needing to know the value of items. It simply precludes me from having to throw those valuable items away.
You can upgrade your bank. Spend the coin. If space is the most important thing to you: Spend the coin to expand your inventory, your bank, and your horse storage space.
You are operating under the assumption that people have unlimited gold, and can just buy whatever they want in this game, or that the max inventory you can buy is adequate, which it isn't. Purchasing inventory slots is exorbitantly overpriced and gets worse as you go along.
If inventory management is somehow entertaining for you, you can always stop every half hour or so and sort through your items and throw stuff away if you like. You can set your own, artificial limit and enjoy the exciting "challenge" of sticking to it. It's your choice, but at least with unlimited inventory, this choice is not being forced on you to the degree it ruins the game experience.
Your suggestion of how I should handle personal limits is absurd. I tend to stick with the concept that we are all on an even playing field. Your patronizing is noted and unappealing. As I said: Knowing what is valuable and what is junk should be a knowledge honed throughout an extensive experience in this game. Destroying something and finding out it could have fetched you some gold should be a valuable lesson. Unless you do not want to devout any thought to the game, then that is the mindset of a content locust. Get everything. Don't think. Profit. Herp-De-Derp.
I was not not being patronizing to you in any way. You made the case that having unlimited inventory is "immersion-breaking" without giving a good explanation as to why. I can only assume based on what you said here that you enjoy these micromanagement tasks and feel that in the absence of being forced to do them and sort through inventory you lose a sense of immersion. If that's your "bag" then fair enough. I am not going to question your preference or insult you for having a different opinion than me on what is valuable or not in these games.
I pointed out the obvious fact that there is nothing about having unlimited inventory that precludes you from engaging in micromanaging your inventory; it simply makes it an optional activity to be done at your leisure rather than a forced activity or problem you have to continuously work around every time you loot a mob, which is what you say you do. With unlimited inventory, I can have my cake and you can eat it too. With inadequate inventory, you get what you want but the game is ruined for me. I think this is obvious enough.
The only other assumption I can make since you fail to clarify your position is that it is not the absence of tedious and grindy activities that kills your immersion, but the very idea of there being unlimited inventory, as you see it as being not consistent with the fantasy theme and therefore a blight on your game play. On this score I can't agree. I can see if I were asking for an 18-wheeler truck to follow behind me to hold my stuff, or an AK-47 to shoot my enemies with. Within the context of a fantasy game, these things would be absurd and out of place and may well kill immersion.
But in a game where dead people can teleport and rez at a wayshrine and you can carry up to 120 steel breastplates in your pocket, I am not sure how much more "immersion-killing" being able to carry 1000 breastplates would be, or having adequate inventory in your bank space. These are all perfectly defensible within the parameters set by the typical fantasy game.
As far as your comment about the AH: You are taking this to the opposite extreme. And you are wrong...Mats sell to merchants for dirt cheap: Heck the crafting stones sell for 0 gold. I think the jury is still out on how this will effect the game's economy but I am optimistic. The creative and devoted will thrive while the lazy and uninsightful will pay the price. That's fine with me
Thanks for that lesson in video gamer supremacism. It is good to know that people who enjoy grindy make work time-sinks are intellectually superior to us lazy and uninsightful dolts who just play games for fun, rather than an e-peen.
I think you and I interpret immersion differently. Whereas Role Play concepts immerse me into the world...being able to continuously fling yourself into the content with no braking points until you want to stop is your cop of tea. I don't have a point where I need to stop and destroy things...because things that I don't want to bother with selling/breaking down/or researching...I don't pick up.
This is how I manage my inventory: I mark all stones that I have no intent on using as junk...so just in case I pick them up they are seperated to their own window so that I can easily find and delete them. I do this the same with all ingredients I don't use. I do woodworking and clothier (cloth) for instance: So I mark everything else as junk. Sometimes I will keep that junk to sell in case I pick it up...but then other stuff I either don't pick or delete. I "might" get the "full inventory" message once a night. After 4 hours of playing from 1-11 I am not hurting for cash. I have 7kg now which is not bad for a fresh toon made in this beta. There are no tricks: Just smarts. Adapt and you'll do well.
You keep reinforcing my point about the inventory system requiring relentless micromanagement while denying that it does. Nothing you describe sounds like fun and indeed your way of "adapting" to the system sounds even more tedious than what i do, and therefore isn't particularly helpful as a solution to the problem you offer a work around for but deny exists. But thanks for the insight that if you want to play games with broken mechanics you have to adapt to those mechanics. I never would have guessed. M'aiq says that if you want to play games as bug-ridden as the Beta for this game is, you have to adapt to the bugs, too, but he is too much the uninsightful dolt to know whether this is true or not.
What's more realistic to star wars, fighting Stormtroopers or fighting klingons? I mean it's just fantasy, why can't they throw some klingons into a star wars game? Such petty realism isn't needed is it?
What's more realistic, having a ship with a huge cargo bay but which can only carry a handful of lightweight items, or a ship with a huge cargo bay which can carry a huge cargo bay worth of items? There's is nothing "unrealistic" about having unlimited inventory in a fantasy game, since the parameters of what is within the realm of the possible are far more generous than games based on real life. Having a massive warehouse and a personal inventory imp to ferry your crap back and forth is perfectly consistent with this game world. Having a chopper fly in to grab your goods in a real-world themed game and ferry them to your warehouse would be just as reasonable.
What's more realistic to star wars, fighting Stormtroopers or fighting klingons? I mean it's just fantasy, why can't they throw some klingons into a star wars game? Such petty realism isn't needed is it?
What's more realistic, having a ship with a huge cargo bay but which can only carry a handful of lightweight items, or a ship with a huge cargo bay which can carry a huge cargo bay worth of items? There's is nothing "unrealistic" about having unlimited inventory in a fantasy game, since the parameters of what is within the realm of the possible are far more generous than games based on real life. Having a massive warehouse and a personal inventory imp to ferry your crap back and forth is perfectly consistent with this game world. Having a chopper fly in to grab your goods in a real-world themed game and ferry them to your warehouse would be just as reasonable.
There is completely something "unrealistic" about have an unlimited inventory in any game. No argument otherwise. Unless you specify a bottomless bag or such in your game, then there has to be limits.
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
1. INVENTORY: Inventory management is a major anti-fun nightmare in this game. You simply have nowhere near the amount of slots you need to hold all the thousands of items you find, and there is nothing more immersion and fun-killing than running out of bag space and having to return to town to find some way of storing or getting rid of all these items. Even in the Beta where you can just chuck most items because my character is going to be deleted inventory hassles are appalling. With your real toon in the real game where you have to make serious decisions about this stuff I can see it really killing game play and forcing people to quit the game, just as myself and other players I know quit Fallen Earth for the same reason. Lack of adequate inventory space can completely cripple a game.
...
Apparently the definition of immersion had an upgrade since I learned the word. I'd think it would be more immersion killing to never run out of bag space. It would be completely ridiculous and unrealistic even considering a high fantasy theme. Even in oldschool D&D portable holes and bags of holding were far from unlimited.
On that same thought, ALL MMO's are immersion killing due to the ability to somehow carry 10 axe/sword/bow/shield/full plate/insert-whatever-bulky-item-here, all in a backpack where the only real restriction is MAYBE a speed hindrance issue in older games... which is the most immersive and realistic it's ever really gotten, without ever a single complaint of 'it ruins my immersion because I should have a buffalo sized backpack showing.'.
The OP is wrong on just about every point. Inventory space can be increased... so that was a waste of finger energy. Repair costs are a gold sink, all games have them.. and they are a death penalty. You don't want a death penalty you say? Might as well get rid of death altogether than.. Soul gems? Expensive? Lol.. not only can you fill them passively at later stages of the game, they cost absolutely nothing and the charge on items lasts for hours.
So.. yeh. Just get over it, you're just ruining your own fun.
I'll be even more clear about what I mean. This is an RPG.. progression is one of the main features. Quality of life comes with progression.. if you keep playing all those problems go away, leaving you with the feeling you have achieved something. This is why we play these games.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
1) Would you like an inventory system similar to Guild Wars 2?
2) Would say say that Guild Wars 2 boasts a healthy in game economy?
1. Yes, this is exactly what i want, only without having to pay cash for the extra bank space slots like you do In GW2. If I am paying a sub fee I feel I am already paying for bank space and shouldn't face f2p restrictions on inventory. Having to grind to get gold to pay for upgrades which are still inadequate is an even greater waste of my time that just paying for them in cash as you do in GW2. My time is as valuable to me as cash is, except that I can't earn more time. Ideally, since adequate inventory is a necessity you shouldn't have to pay extra for it. Developers neat to get their head out of the p(ass)t on this issue.
2. Yes and no. As far as being able to find abundant crafting materials at reasonable prices the economy was a success. As far as being able to earn money crafting, no, that didn't seem possible save for a few items, but this seems to be the case in many MMOs I have played. Crafted goods usually sell for less than the materials needed to craft them, despite the fact the mats WERE cheap at one time, don't know about now. That is definitely a market failure.
I am not sure how increasing scarcity even more through limited inventory and the lack of a central AH would remedy that problem, rather than make it worse. Making mats scarcer makes them more expensive, yet demand for crafted materials is based on player needs and not the cost of making the items. Charge enough to cover costs and nobody will buy your stuff when there is often better loot drops to be found in the wild. The only way to remedy this problem is to make crafted gear the highest grade gear you can own, and I doubt most MMOs will go that route.
Apparently the definition of immersion had an upgrade since I learned the word. I'd think it would be more immersion killing to never run out of bag space. It would be completely ridiculous and unrealistic even considering a high fantasy theme. Even in oldschool D&D portable holes and bags of holding were far from unlimited.
I have yet to hear a coherent reason as to why that is immersion-killing and having to perform a warehouse-management mini-game every 1 to 2 hours isn't.
On that same thought, ALL MMO's are immersion killing due to the ability to somehow carry 10 axe/sword/bow/shield/full plate/insert-whatever-bulky-item-here, all in a backpack where the only real restriction is MAYBE a speed hindrance issue in older games... which is the most immersive and realistic it's ever really gotten, without ever a single complaint of 'it ruins my immersion because I should have a buffalo sized backpack showing.'.
Being constantly encumbered by loot, that sounds like...fun. Makes me wonder why you're not still playing those fun games. Makes me wonder why every developer isn't designing their games around this fun mechanic.
I can't think of anything more immersion-breaking in this game than going into an instance and having 20 people run by and kill every mob in the place with me running desperately behind them so I can tag the boss before she gets one-shoted by the herd.
Apparently the definition of immersion had an upgrade since I learned the word. I'd think it would be more immersion killing to never run out of bag space. It would be completely ridiculous and unrealistic even considering a high fantasy theme. Even in oldschool D&D portable holes and bags of holding were far from unlimited.
I have yet to hear a coherent reason as to why that is immersion-killing and having to perform a warehouse-management mini-game every 1 to 2 hours isn't.
On that same thought, ALL MMO's are immersion killing due to the ability to somehow carry 10 axe/sword/bow/shield/full plate/insert-whatever-bulky-item-here, all in a backpack where the only real restriction is MAYBE a speed hindrance issue in older games... which is the most immersive and realistic it's ever really gotten, without ever a single complaint of 'it ruins my immersion because I should have a buffalo sized backpack showing.'.
Being constantly encumbered by loot, that sounds like...fun. Makes me wonder why you're not still playing those fun games. Makes me wonder why every developer isn't designing their games around this fun mechanic.
I can't think of anything more immersion-breaking in this game than going into an instance and having 20 people run by and kill every mob in the place with me running desperately behind them so I can tag the boss before she gets one-shoted by the herd.
Apparently the definition of immersion had an upgrade since I learned the word. I'd think it would be more immersion killing to never run out of bag space. It would be completely ridiculous and unrealistic even considering a high fantasy theme. Even in oldschool D&D portable holes and bags of holding were far from unlimited.
I have yet to hear a coherent reason as to why that is immersion-killing and having to perform a warehouse-management mini-game every 1 to 2 hours isn't.
Being constantly encumbered by loot, that sounds like...fun. Makes me wonder why you're not still playing those fun games. Makes me wonder why every developer isn't designing their games around this fun mechanic.
I can't think of anything more immersion-breaking in this game than going into an instance and having 20 people run by and kill every mob in the place with me running desperately behind them so I can tag the boss before she gets one-shoted by the herd.
Well one shot often kills in reality....anyway
I think it's the opposite, you have failed to offer a single compelling reason why unlimited bag space wouldn't be "Immersion killing" to anyone else, it's subjective there's nothing really to argue back and forth about, it's a simple matter of stating your preference and moving on. Accept others opinions, you started a thread on this topic, this is the result. It's called sharing opinions.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
The OP is wrong on just about every point. Inventory space can be increased... so that was a waste of finger energy.
Who said it wasn't upgradable?
Repair costs are a gold sink, all games have them.. and they are a death penalty.
All games do not have gold sinks, nor are they necessary. They are not a death penalty, because you accrue them even if you don't die just by playing the game. If you never die, then this game isn't much of a challenge, is it?
You don't want a death penalty you say? Might as well get rid of death altogether than..
That makes no sense whatsoever. How does that logically follow? Death is a death penalty in itself. GW2 had it right in their pre-release commentaries, though they later reneged on their promise. i can't say it any better:
"Why should we debuff you, take away experience, or make you run around for five minutes as a ghost instead of letting you actually play the game? We couldn’t think of a reason. Well, we did actually think of a reason -- it just wasn’t a good one. Death penalties make death in-game a more tense experience. It just isn’t fun. We want to get you back into the action (fun) as quickly as possible. Defeat is the penalty; we don’t have to penalize you a second time."
If you want a death penalty and "immersion" then repair costs are a joke anyway. In the real world when someone stabs you in the chest with a spear, you die in agony spitting blood. That's a death penalty. Get hit once and your character dies and you have to start from scratch. Repair costs are just another noxious unfun grind, let's stop with the absurd notion they are some kind of pillar of meaningful gameplay.
Soul gems? Expensive? Lol.. not only can you fill them passively at later stages of the game, they cost absolutely nothing and the charge on items lasts for hours.
They are very expensive, if you wish to keep your weapons charged and they become obsolete as you level up. They don't last for hours unless you're doing nothing but whacking bunnies. Be real.
I'll be even more clear about what I mean. This is an RPG.. progression is one of the main features. Quality of life comes with progression.. if you keep playing all those problems go away, leaving you with the feeling you have achieved something. This is why we play these games.
You can have progression without tedium and grind. It is a fiction that this genre require either. Grind is not "progression" it is regression, which is why most players hate it. True progression in these games requires developers who can think outside the tired formula they have relied on for years and to which players are thoroughly burned out.
Apparently the definition of immersion had an upgrade since I learned the word. I'd think it would be more immersion killing to never run out of bag space. It would be completely ridiculous and unrealistic even considering a high fantasy theme. Even in oldschool D&D portable holes and bags of holding were far from unlimited.
I have yet to hear a coherent reason as to why that is immersion-killing and having to perform a warehouse-management mini-game every 1 to 2 hours isn't.
Being constantly encumbered by loot, that sounds like...fun. Makes me wonder why you're not still playing those fun games. Makes me wonder why every developer isn't designing their games around this fun mechanic.
I can't think of anything more immersion-breaking in this game than going into an instance and having 20 people run by and kill every mob in the place with me running desperately behind them so I can tag the boss before she gets one-shoted by the herd.
Well one shot often kills in reality....anyway
I think it's the opposite, you have failed to offer a single compelling reason why unlimited bag space wouldn't be "Immersion killing" to anyone else, it's subjective there's nothing really to argue back and forth about, it's a simple matter of stating your preference and moving on. Accept others opinions, you started a thread on this topic, this is the result. It's called sharing opinions.
If you don't like my opinion or my defense of it then move on yourself.
I offered reasons why limited inventory is immersion killing for me and you are welcome to address what I actually said if you like. I can't speak for why anyone else finds unlimited inventory immersion killing and so far, no one has offered a reason why other than to assert it as if it is self-evident fact. I am willing to accept others opinions I just don't see anyone backing them with a real argument.
If you think bosses getting one-shotted is fun I don't know what more to say.
Bag space always reveals the intention of a game. Like Age of Wushu where your bags actually expire every 3-5 days or whatever. Why would they make anything so unfun?
My suggestion would be to eliminate about half the items. No needing different stones for each of ten races, no mindless endless stacks of ingredients. What is the purpose of looting if you cant carry the items?
The soul gems and the bag space and the horses reveal this game already has a bailout f2p model in its back pocket, and they are probably going to need it.
I think it's the opposite, you have failed to offer a single compelling reason why unlimited bag space wouldn't be "Immersion killing" to anyone else, it's subjective there's nothing really to argue back and forth about, it's a simple matter of stating your preference and moving on. Accept others opinions, you started a thread on this topic, this is the result. It's called sharing opinions.
If you don't like my opinion or my defense of it then move on yourself.
I offered reasons why limited inventory is immersion killing for me and you are welcome to address what I actually said if you like. I can't speak for why anyone else finds unlimited inventory immersion killing and so far, no one has offered a reason why other than to assert it as if it is self-evident fact. I am willing to accept others opinions I just don't see anyone backing them with a real argument.
If you think bosses getting one-shotted is fun I don't know what more to say.
That's where subjective comes in, and was my entire point, there's no real argument here it's all subjective, their reasons are their own, as are their reasons for disagreeing with your reasons, it goes round and round and round, there's no truth to come in and stop it....
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Apparently the definition of immersion had an upgrade since I learned the word. I'd think it would be more immersion killing to never run out of bag space. It would be completely ridiculous and unrealistic even considering a high fantasy theme. Even in oldschool D&D portable holes and bags of holding were far from unlimited.
I have yet to hear a coherent reason as to why that is immersion-killing and having to perform a warehouse-management mini-game every 1 to 2 hours isn't.
Being constantly encumbered by loot, that sounds like...fun. Makes me wonder why you're not still playing those fun games. Makes me wonder why every developer isn't designing their games around this fun mechanic.
I can't think of anything more immersion-breaking in this game than going into an instance and having 20 people run by and kill every mob in the place with me running desperately behind them so I can tag the boss before she gets one-shoted by the herd.
Well one shot often kills in reality....anyway
I think it's the opposite, you have failed to offer a single compelling reason why unlimited bag space wouldn't be "Immersion killing" to anyone else, it's subjective there's nothing really to argue back and forth about, it's a simple matter of stating your preference and moving on. Accept others opinions, you started a thread on this topic, this is the result. It's called sharing opinions.
If you don't like my opinion or my defense of it then move on yourself.
I offered reasons why limited inventory is immersion killing for me and you are welcome to address what I actually said if you like. I can't speak for why anyone else finds unlimited inventory immersion killing and so far, no one has offered a reason why other than to assert it as if it is self-evident fact. I am willing to accept others opinions I just don't see anyone backing them with a real argument.
If you think bosses getting one-shotted is fun I don't know what more to say.
I have..others have. An over abundance of goods flooding the market (because everyone can loot everything without ever stopping) can cause the economy to become over saturated. Limiting the flow of goods can slow/prevent inflation.
I do not agree with your "Yes and No" assessment of Guild Wars 2. I give it a resounding "no" if only by the example you gave.
Edit: But as Distopia has stated...truly it is subjective no matter how we look at it.
Apparently the definition of immersion had an upgrade since I learned the word. I'd think it would be more immersion killing to never run out of bag space. It would be completely ridiculous and unrealistic even considering a high fantasy theme. Even in oldschool D&D portable holes and bags of holding were far from unlimited.
I have yet to hear a coherent reason as to why that is immersion-killing and having to perform a warehouse-management mini-game every 1 to 2 hours isn't.
Being constantly encumbered by loot, that sounds like...fun. Makes me wonder why you're not still playing those fun games. Makes me wonder why every developer isn't designing their games around this fun mechanic.
I can't think of anything more immersion-breaking in this game than going into an instance and having 20 people run by and kill every mob in the place with me running desperately behind them so I can tag the boss before she gets one-shoted by the herd.
Well one shot often kills in reality....anyway
I think it's the opposite, you have failed to offer a single compelling reason why unlimited bag space wouldn't be "Immersion killing" to anyone else, it's subjective there's nothing really to argue back and forth about, it's a simple matter of stating your preference and moving on. Accept others opinions, you started a thread on this topic, this is the result. It's called sharing opinions.
If you don't like my opinion or my defense of it then move on yourself.
I offered reasons why limited inventory is immersion killing for me and you are welcome to address what I actually said if you like. I can't speak for why anyone else finds unlimited inventory immersion killing and so far, no one has offered a reason why other than to assert it as if it is self-evident fact. I am willing to accept others opinions I just don't see anyone backing them with a real argument.
If you think bosses getting one-shotted is fun I don't know what more to say.
I have..others have. An over abundance of goods flooding the market (because everyone can loot everything without ever stopping) can cause the economy to become over saturated. Limiting the flow of goods can slow/prevent inflation.
I do not agree with your "Yes and No" assessment of Guild Wars 2. I give it a resounding "no" if only by the example you gave.
I have a hard time taking anyone serious who gets 125 replies and says "I don't see a real argument made in any of them" .
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
The only part I agree on is the repair cost. Someone here said "if you die allot" haha not even true. I got to lvl 5. Only died once and please what combat is there getting to level 5? My repair cost was 500g WOW I only had 700 total at that time. So no dying did this.
Could be a bug because I ran out a window to die to see and then it was like 7g. So my guess is SOME of us I PRAY seen a bug.
The game is just to sluggish. Half the time you tend to think you are lagging yet your getting 60+fps but it looks laggy. Questing is way to easy. Don't even try to say its hard or challenging. Unless running back and forth is hard for you or killing that NPC that maybe moves 2 feet is to hard.
Yet I am seeing this as of late. So many want EASY. Killing more then 3 they start to cry. They would never had made it killing 15-25-25-10 and repeat haha. Good old days
Sorry but also the hand holding quests. They are all that way. Just pop open the map and go. One quest you had to get in to this place and to do this you had to talk to so and so. Leave it there and now its fun but no. Under that it says "go talk to so and so in the market place"> open the map DUH theres that white dot you have to go to.
Comments
Maybe not for you... but as others have said on this thread.. such things would take away immersion.... and it feels really fantasy like and less game like for you to use a soul crystal/gem and leech life from fallen enemies in order to rez yourself or others.
Eh, I was attempting (obviously poorly?) to reinforce your point.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
My fault.. you were responding to his post not mine.. i thought you were responding directly to mine.. that is why i failed to see the sarcasm.
No biggie we all do it from time to time.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
It does not make a healer pay, it makes EVERY player responsible for themselves and those they are closely aligned to. You have a choice on whether to rez someone if you have a soul shard. It removes the dependency on a single type of class while adding a double duty item (enchantment recharge/rez) creating a rather convenient mechanic.
You don't HAVE to purchase a single stone if you don't want to. You can just use the stones you find or mooch of other people. It gives death more meaning in PvP while allowing convenience in PvE.
There seems to be two sides in this discussion.
1) Those that understand meaningful play requires obstacles.
2) Those that want no obstacles or challenges at the cost of convenience for personal play.
I find #2 rather boring and self defeating for an MMO.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
I hardly think collecting items off the ground involves "hyperactive zeal" in any case, but yes, I do prefer to loot everything as it is more convenient and efficient. I am not sure why I should prefer tedious make work over efficiency. The overwhelming majority of MMORPG gamers are not role players, so let's nip that insinuation in the bud. There is nothing about having an adequate inventory system that precludes me needing to know the value of items. It simply precludes me from having to throw those valuable items away.
You are operating under the assumption that people have unlimited gold, and can just buy whatever they want in this game, or that the max inventory you can buy is adequate, which it isn't. Purchasing inventory slots is exorbitantly overpriced and gets worse as you go along.
If inventory management is somehow entertaining for you, you can always stop every half hour or so and sort through your items and throw stuff away if you like. You can set your own, artificial limit and enjoy the exciting "challenge" of sticking to it. It's your choice, but at least with unlimited inventory, this choice is not being forced on you to the degree it ruins the game experience.
I was not not being patronizing to you in any way. You made the case that having unlimited inventory is "immersion-breaking" without giving a good explanation as to why. I can only assume based on what you said here that you enjoy these micromanagement tasks and feel that in the absence of being forced to do them and sort through inventory you lose a sense of immersion. If that's your "bag" then fair enough. I am not going to question your preference or insult you for having a different opinion than me on what is valuable or not in these games.
I pointed out the obvious fact that there is nothing about having unlimited inventory that precludes you from engaging in micromanaging your inventory; it simply makes it an optional activity to be done at your leisure rather than a forced activity or problem you have to continuously work around every time you loot a mob, which is what you say you do. With unlimited inventory, I can have my cake and you can eat it too. With inadequate inventory, you get what you want but the game is ruined for me. I think this is obvious enough.
The only other assumption I can make since you fail to clarify your position is that it is not the absence of tedious and grindy activities that kills your immersion, but the very idea of there being unlimited inventory, as you see it as being not consistent with the fantasy theme and therefore a blight on your game play. On this score I can't agree. I can see if I were asking for an 18-wheeler truck to follow behind me to hold my stuff, or an AK-47 to shoot my enemies with. Within the context of a fantasy game, these things would be absurd and out of place and may well kill immersion.
But in a game where dead people can teleport and rez at a wayshrine and you can carry up to 120 steel breastplates in your pocket, I am not sure how much more "immersion-killing" being able to carry 1000 breastplates would be, or having adequate inventory in your bank space. These are all perfectly defensible within the parameters set by the typical fantasy game.
Thanks for that lesson in video gamer supremacism. It is good to know that people who enjoy grindy make work time-sinks are intellectually superior to us lazy and uninsightful dolts who just play games for fun, rather than an e-peen.
You keep reinforcing my point about the inventory system requiring relentless micromanagement while denying that it does. Nothing you describe sounds like fun and indeed your way of "adapting" to the system sounds even more tedious than what i do, and therefore isn't particularly helpful as a solution to the problem you offer a work around for but deny exists. But thanks for the insight that if you want to play games with broken mechanics you have to adapt to those mechanics. I never would have guessed. M'aiq says that if you want to play games as bug-ridden as the Beta for this game is, you have to adapt to the bugs, too, but he is too much the uninsightful dolt to know whether this is true or not.
What's more realistic, having a ship with a huge cargo bay but which can only carry a handful of lightweight items, or a ship with a huge cargo bay which can carry a huge cargo bay worth of items? There's is nothing "unrealistic" about having unlimited inventory in a fantasy game, since the parameters of what is within the realm of the possible are far more generous than games based on real life. Having a massive warehouse and a personal inventory imp to ferry your crap back and forth is perfectly consistent with this game world. Having a chopper fly in to grab your goods in a real-world themed game and ferry them to your warehouse would be just as reasonable.
Unlimited inventory space will not happen . I think it's a pipe dream to even think of it. Think of all the money the cash shop will lose.
I have two final questions for you:
1) Would you like an inventory system similar to Guild Wars 2?
2) Would say say that Guild Wars 2 boasts a healthy in game economy?
There is completely something "unrealistic" about have an unlimited inventory in any game. No argument otherwise. Unless you specify a bottomless bag or such in your game, then there has to be limits.
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
Apparently the definition of immersion had an upgrade since I learned the word. I'd think it would be more immersion killing to never run out of bag space. It would be completely ridiculous and unrealistic even considering a high fantasy theme. Even in oldschool D&D portable holes and bags of holding were far from unlimited.
On that same thought, ALL MMO's are immersion killing due to the ability to somehow carry 10 axe/sword/bow/shield/full plate/insert-whatever-bulky-item-here, all in a backpack where the only real restriction is MAYBE a speed hindrance issue in older games... which is the most immersive and realistic it's ever really gotten, without ever a single complaint of 'it ruins my immersion because I should have a buffalo sized backpack showing.'.
So.. yeh
The OP is wrong on just about every point. Inventory space can be increased... so that was a waste of finger energy. Repair costs are a gold sink, all games have them.. and they are a death penalty. You don't want a death penalty you say? Might as well get rid of death altogether than.. Soul gems? Expensive? Lol.. not only can you fill them passively at later stages of the game, they cost absolutely nothing and the charge on items lasts for hours.
So.. yeh. Just get over it, you're just ruining your own fun.
I'll be even more clear about what I mean. This is an RPG.. progression is one of the main features. Quality of life comes with progression.. if you keep playing all those problems go away, leaving you with the feeling you have achieved something. This is why we play these games.
1. Yes, this is exactly what i want, only without having to pay cash for the extra bank space slots like you do In GW2. If I am paying a sub fee I feel I am already paying for bank space and shouldn't face f2p restrictions on inventory. Having to grind to get gold to pay for upgrades which are still inadequate is an even greater waste of my time that just paying for them in cash as you do in GW2. My time is as valuable to me as cash is, except that I can't earn more time. Ideally, since adequate inventory is a necessity you shouldn't have to pay extra for it. Developers neat to get their head out of the p(ass)t on this issue.
2. Yes and no. As far as being able to find abundant crafting materials at reasonable prices the economy was a success. As far as being able to earn money crafting, no, that didn't seem possible save for a few items, but this seems to be the case in many MMOs I have played. Crafted goods usually sell for less than the materials needed to craft them, despite the fact the mats WERE cheap at one time, don't know about now. That is definitely a market failure.
I am not sure how increasing scarcity even more through limited inventory and the lack of a central AH would remedy that problem, rather than make it worse. Making mats scarcer makes them more expensive, yet demand for crafted materials is based on player needs and not the cost of making the items. Charge enough to cover costs and nobody will buy your stuff when there is often better loot drops to be found in the wild. The only way to remedy this problem is to make crafted gear the highest grade gear you can own, and I doubt most MMOs will go that route.
I have yet to hear a coherent reason as to why that is immersion-killing and having to perform a warehouse-management mini-game every 1 to 2 hours isn't.
Being constantly encumbered by loot, that sounds like...fun. Makes me wonder why you're not still playing those fun games. Makes me wonder why every developer isn't designing their games around this fun mechanic.
I can't think of anything more immersion-breaking in this game than going into an instance and having 20 people run by and kill every mob in the place with me running desperately behind them so I can tag the boss before she gets one-shoted by the herd.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2y8Sx4B2Sk
Well one shot often kills in reality....anyway
I think it's the opposite, you have failed to offer a single compelling reason why unlimited bag space wouldn't be "Immersion killing" to anyone else, it's subjective there's nothing really to argue back and forth about, it's a simple matter of stating your preference and moving on. Accept others opinions, you started a thread on this topic, this is the result. It's called sharing opinions.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Who said it wasn't upgradable?
All games do not have gold sinks, nor are they necessary. They are not a death penalty, because you accrue them even if you don't die just by playing the game. If you never die, then this game isn't much of a challenge, is it?
That makes no sense whatsoever. How does that logically follow? Death is a death penalty in itself. GW2 had it right in their pre-release commentaries, though they later reneged on their promise. i can't say it any better:
"Why should we debuff you, take away experience, or make you run around for five minutes as a ghost instead of letting you actually play the game? We couldn’t think of a reason. Well, we did actually think of a reason -- it just wasn’t a good one. Death penalties make death in-game a more tense experience. It just isn’t fun. We want to get you back into the action (fun) as quickly as possible. Defeat is the penalty; we don’t have to penalize you a second time."
http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2010/07/08/guild-wars-2-cutting-back-on-healers-death-penalties.aspx
Fun. In MMO games. The horror!
If you want a death penalty and "immersion" then repair costs are a joke anyway. In the real world when someone stabs you in the chest with a spear, you die in agony spitting blood. That's a death penalty. Get hit once and your character dies and you have to start from scratch. Repair costs are just another noxious unfun grind, let's stop with the absurd notion they are some kind of pillar of meaningful gameplay.
They are very expensive, if you wish to keep your weapons charged and they become obsolete as you level up. They don't last for hours unless you're doing nothing but whacking bunnies. Be real.
You can have progression without tedium and grind. It is a fiction that this genre require either. Grind is not "progression" it is regression, which is why most players hate it. True progression in these games requires developers who can think outside the tired formula they have relied on for years and to which players are thoroughly burned out.
If you don't like my opinion or my defense of it then move on yourself.
I offered reasons why limited inventory is immersion killing for me and you are welcome to address what I actually said if you like. I can't speak for why anyone else finds unlimited inventory immersion killing and so far, no one has offered a reason why other than to assert it as if it is self-evident fact. I am willing to accept others opinions I just don't see anyone backing them with a real argument.
If you think bosses getting one-shotted is fun I don't know what more to say.
You make a lot of good points.
Bag space always reveals the intention of a game. Like Age of Wushu where your bags actually expire every 3-5 days or whatever. Why would they make anything so unfun?
My suggestion would be to eliminate about half the items. No needing different stones for each of ten races, no mindless endless stacks of ingredients. What is the purpose of looting if you cant carry the items?
The soul gems and the bag space and the horses reveal this game already has a bailout f2p model in its back pocket, and they are probably going to need it.
That's where subjective comes in, and was my entire point, there's no real argument here it's all subjective, their reasons are their own, as are their reasons for disagreeing with your reasons, it goes round and round and round, there's no truth to come in and stop it....
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I have..others have. An over abundance of goods flooding the market (because everyone can loot everything without ever stopping) can cause the economy to become over saturated. Limiting the flow of goods can slow/prevent inflation.
I do not agree with your "Yes and No" assessment of Guild Wars 2. I give it a resounding "no" if only by the example you gave.
Edit: But as Distopia has stated...truly it is subjective no matter how we look at it.
I have a hard time taking anyone serious who gets 125 replies and says "I don't see a real argument made in any of them" .
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
The only part I agree on is the repair cost. Someone here said "if you die allot" haha not even true. I got to lvl 5. Only died once and please what combat is there getting to level 5? My repair cost was 500g WOW I only had 700 total at that time. So no dying did this.
Could be a bug because I ran out a window to die to see and then it was like 7g. So my guess is SOME of us I PRAY seen a bug.
The game is just to sluggish. Half the time you tend to think you are lagging yet your getting 60+fps but it looks laggy. Questing is way to easy. Don't even try to say its hard or challenging. Unless running back and forth is hard for you or killing that NPC that maybe moves 2 feet is to hard.
Yet I am seeing this as of late. So many want EASY. Killing more then 3 they start to cry. They would never had made it killing 15-25-25-10 and repeat haha. Good old days
Sorry but also the hand holding quests. They are all that way. Just pop open the map and go. One quest you had to get in to this place and to do this you had to talk to so and so. Leave it there and now its fun but no. Under that it says "go talk to so and so in the market place"> open the map DUH theres that white dot you have to go to.
ITs like it was made for 12y olds.