Thinking of Playing EvE? Perhaps reconsider.

Ikonoclastia

Griefing has been around since early computer based gaming has been around.  The intention of the griefer is to cause annoyance, loss, or unpleasantness for the victim.  In extreme cases griefing causes people to quit playing a game as their ability to enjoy the game is curtailed.  In such instances its counter productive for the games company to allow such activity in its game.  It loses subscriptions, which causes loss of revenue.  Griefing also causes damage to the reputation of the company and the game that company runs.

 

Not so for EvE Online.  CCP Games actively support and encourage player griefing against its 'carebear' and 'newbie' population.  When Goonswarm held its Burn Jita event, an event designed to bypass the usual 24 hours of notice in high sec wars, by taking an armada of ships into high sec's Jita trade system and suicide killing any and every player they could, CCP not only did nothing, they actively encouraged it.

 

When Goonswarms leader stood up and belittled, humiliated, shared private correspondence and encouraged a player to commit suicide at CCP's fanfest, both the audience and developers who were presence laughed along with him.  Was he permbanned, no.  

 

Recently a coalition (NC Dot) invited a person whom they knew was recovering from cancer to join their coalition.  They invited him to put all this stuff into a carrier and provided him with a cynosaural jump point into their null sec space.  They then proceeded to blow everything he had up and pod him.  A guy with cancer? This is the sort of depravity that should never exist in any game.  What did CCP do? Nothing.  

 

In the last few weeks the Erotica1fiasco, in which a player and his wife were victimised, harassed and had a disability mocked caused CCP to reevaluate its stance on griefing.  Their response.  Well it was actually nothing and meant nothing. They reserved the right to decide when someone has crossed the line between "normal" griefing and "naughty" griefing. Erotica1 was banned however only after 6 weeks and huge community outcry, including a 300 page threadnaught, that might have caused CCP to get some bad press.

And of course Erotica1 is back with a new alt, running the exact same scam with the same bonus rooms that led to the outcry.

 

Do the developers simply turn a blind eye to this conduct or are they complicit in it?  A recent event led by the developers themselves involved inviting a large number of "carebears" from highsec into null sec (the main area set aside for PvP) and into the welcoming arms of a waiting gate camp (basically EvE's main form of PvP - Spawncamping).  Mistake? Highly unlikely.  It seems more than likely that they leaked the location of this event to the alliance in question with the express purpose of feeding their players to the waiting alliance.

 

That the developers and certain players in the game are linked by more than a customer / developer relationship was demonstrated when the developers staged an event in the home system of one of the most powerful alliances in the game.  The leader of whom is an ex-CCP developer themselves.  On this occasion the developers dropped 800 billion isk worth of items exclusively to this player entity.

 

Which brings me to my own experience with griefing and developer apathy.  In early February I decided to help a group of players set up a non-kill on sight area in Stain null sec.  At this same time a player or players created 3 alt accounts, sent those alts out to Stain where they proceeded to follow me from system to system, verbally abusing me in local for hours at a time.  I was called a pedophile and accused of watching child pornography as well as being subjected to constant foul language.  This went on non-stop for 4 months.

 

I managed to get the player or players in question to admit they were specifically targeting me for harassment and petitioned them.  Even though I supplied the GM's with screenshots in which the player states they are specifically targeting me for harassment no action was taken against those players. Given the characters in question were using cloaks which prevents any retaliation I was not able to take any in game action against them. 

 

I then went to the forums and posted about this issue.  The forum post I created was trolled incessantly, I was insulted, abused, belittled and villified for over 23 pages and then my thread locked by mods for 'breaching a rule of discussing GM actions' while the people who had spent hours of their time harassing and mocking my situation received no punishment at all.

 

I unsubscribed my accounts and posted a message to CCP in the Out of Pod Experience subforum regarding the lack of moderation and the lack of support dealing with my harassment and that thread was also subjected to trolling, spam, and anti-social posts which breached almost every rule of the forums.  Yet no action was taken against those players.

 

So if you're an aweful person, you like to cause other players to feel bad, you like to cause pain to people who have cancer, you enjoy trolling, you enjoy making fun of people with disabilities, you like being led into a traps by developers, you're okay with developer favoritism, you enjoy flying around in space with corporations that have names like "Creampie Carpet Munchers" and your a general asshat then EvE online is likely for you.

For normal people, I'd suggest a different game.

 

Infinity Ziona

 

 

 

 

flizzer

It is hard to believe gamers don't understand how these games promote griefing.  That is what these games are all about. If you don't like it you get called names.  I remember there was a video posted in the forums from HOG on another game, Darkfall I think, but the griefing mentality is the same.  These games are popular so I recognize I am in the minority who avoids these games and prefers to work together with players and , heaven forbid, help another player.  I still believe the griefing mentality in these games attracts people with mental disturbances.  I understand it is all fantasy but I refuse to believe it is healthy behavior albeit fantasy to cause grief and make someone else miserable in game. 

Rigur

Let them have their cesspit. Send as many bad players to that game as possible. Anything to keep them from other games.

Sorry about you being greifed and trolled. That's what these people find fun. Sadly you will have the same thing happen here for posting this.

Ikonoclastia

Originally posted by Rigur

Let them have their cesspit. Send as many bad players to that game as possible. Anything to keep them from other games.

Sorry about you being greifed and trolled. That's what these people find fun. Sadly you will have the same thing happen here for posting this.

Thanks to both of you guys for your supportive post.  Its telling that the first two posts on here are supportive rather than "STFU NOOB" or the "CRY MOAR LOOOLZ" which is the general response on the EvE forums.

I'm an EvE veteran, started in 2003 and been on the EvE O forums for the last 11 years so I'm pretty used to the trollling.  It has however become worse and worse of the last few years to the point people are afraid to even post in GD on EvE-O.  

 

I have received many emails of support from people who agree with my point of view but are too afraid to post that agreement due to the abuse they would definitely receive.  

 

Here is one of the emails I received today:

 

"

Name Removed

You have pointed it out clearly, I have 24 PLEX and no will to play any longer, those trolls and idiots are indeed CCP special snowlakes, and forums for the large part are the most infected, especially in GD. Gameplay they provide... sheeesh...

Well, time to say goodbye. As i have said it before, to win this game, you have to stop playing, and that was the last straw. I am burning this place down. "

DrunkWolf

Originally posted by Ikonoclastia

Griefing has been around since early computer based gaming has been around.  The intention of the griefer is to cause annoyance, loss, or unpleasantness for the victim.  In extreme cases griefing causes people to quit playing a game as their ability to enjoy the game is curtailed.  In such instances its counter productive for the games company to allow such activity in its game.  It loses subscriptions, which causes loss of revenue.  Griefing also causes damage to the reputation of the company and the game that company runs.

 

Not so for EvE Online.  CCP Games actively support and encourage player griefing against its 'carebear' and 'newbie' population.  When Goonswarm held its Burn Jita event, an event designed to bypass the usual 24 hours of notice in high sec wars, by taking an armada of ships into high sec's Jita trade system and suicide killing any and every player they could, CCP not only did nothing, they actively encouraged it.

 

When Goonswarms leader stood up and belittled, humiliated, shared private correspondence and encouraged a player to commit suicide at CCP's fanfest, both the audience and developers who were presence laughed along with him.  Was he permbanned, no.  

 

Recently a coalition (NC Dot) invited a person whom they knew was recovering from cancer to join their coalition.  They invited him to put all this stuff into a carrier and provided him with a cynosaural jump point into their null sec space.  They then proceeded to blow everything he had up and pod him.  A guy with cancer? This is the sort of depravity that should never exist in any game.  What did CCP do? Nothing.  

 

In the last few weeks the Erotica1fiasco, in which a player and his wife were victimised, harassed and had a disability mocked caused CCP to reevaluate its stance on griefing.  Their response.  Well it was actually nothing and meant nothing. They reserved the right to decide when someone has crossed the line between "normal" griefing and "naughty" griefing. Erotica1 was banned however only after 6 weeks and huge community outcry, including a 300 page threadnaught, that might have caused CCP to get some bad press.

And of course Erotica1 is back with a new alt, running the exact same scam with the same bonus rooms that led to the outcry.

 

Do the developers simply turn a blind eye to this conduct or are they complicit in it?  A recent event led by the developers themselves involved inviting a large number of "carebears" from highsec into null sec (the main area set aside for PvP) and into the welcoming arms of a waiting gate camp (basically EvE's main form of PvP - Spawncamping).  Mistake? Highly unlikely.  It seems more than likely that they leaked the location of this event to the alliance in question with the express purpose of feeding their players to the waiting alliance.

 

That the developers and certain players in the game are linked by more than a customer / developer relationship was demonstrated when the developers staged an event in the home system of one of the most powerful alliances in the game.  The leader of whom is an ex-CCP developer themselves.  On this occasion the developers dropped 800 billion isk worth of items exclusively to this player entity.

 

Which brings me to my own experience with griefing and developer apathy.  In early February I decided to help a group of players set up a non-kill on sight area in Stain null sec.  At this same time a player or players created 3 alt accounts, sent those alts out to Stain where they proceeded to follow me from system to system, verbally abusing me in local for hours at a time.  I was called a pedophile and accused of watching child pornography as well as being subjected to constant foul language.  This went on non-stop for 4 months.

 

I managed to get the player or players in question to admit they were specifically targeting me for harassment and petitioned them.  Even though I supplied the GM's with screenshots in which the player states they are specifically targeting me for harassment no action was taken against those players. Given the characters in question were using cloaks which prevents any retaliation I was not able to take any in game action against them. 

 

I then went to the forums and posted about this issue.  The forum post I created was trolled incessantly, I was insulted, abused, belittled and villified for over 23 pages and then my thread locked by mods for 'breaching a rule of discussing GM actions' while the people who had spent hours of their time harassing and mocking my situation received no punishment at all.

 

I unsubscribed my accounts and posted a message to CCP in the Out of Pod Experience subforum regarding the lack of moderation and the lack of support dealing with my harassment and that thread was also subjected to trolling, spam, and anti-social posts which breached almost every rule of the forums.  Yet no action was taken against those players.

 

So if you're an aweful person, you like to cause other players to feel bad, you like to cause pain to people who have cancer, you enjoy trolling, you enjoy making fun of people with disabilities, you like being led into a traps by developers, you're okay with developer favoritism, you enjoy flying around in space with corporations that have names like "Creampie Carpet Munchers" and your a general asshat then EvE online is likely for you.

For normal people, I'd suggest a different game.

 

Infinity Ziona

 

 

 

 

it reminds me of how people treat each other in real life.

jesteralways

Originally posted by kairel182

Get over it.  The game works around griefing freedom.  

Here fixed that for you.

Originally posted by kairel182

After re-reading your post, I seriously have to question why you're whining about this.  Why ANYONE would know about this person recovering from cancer is beyond me.  Why would someone put their personal life into the game unless it was someone they trusted?  Obviously this was a douchebag move if they knew beforehand that this was the case, but it doesn't in the least break any sort of rules nor is it against the game code.  This is NOT harassment, this is standard run of the mill trust being entirely misplaced.  Especially in null-sec, where ANYTHING GOES.  You know, anything.  There's nothing that can't be destroyed and anything beyond liquid ISK is a liability.

 

I agree that it was morally wrong, but it's also the person's fault for divulging their personal information into a game setting.  There are people every where that would do this in any game, given the chance.  If you know Eve then you should know this.  I feel for the guy in real life, but have no sympathy for what he lost in game.  When I played I lost a lot, but never due to a trust misconception.  I only trusted real people, whom know personally.

Yes of course. next thing you will say :- "a girl who is raped is at fault, of course the rapists did something wrong but the girl should never have left her house and never should have walked among unknown people"

It has become a common thing these days to blame the victim for their misfortune and antagonize them. People like you are simply disgusting.

Ikonoclastia

Originally posted by kairel182

After re-reading your post, I seriously have to question why you're whining about this.  Why ANYONE would know about this person recovering from cancer is beyond me.  Why would someone put their personal life into the game unless it was someone they trusted?  Obviously this was a douchebag move if they knew beforehand that this was the case, but it doesn't in the least break any sort of rules nor is it against the game code.  This is NOT harassment, this is standard run of the mill trust being entirely misplaced.  Especially in null-sec, where ANYTHING GOES.  You know, anything.  There's nothing that can't be destroyed and anything beyond liquid ISK is a liability.

 

I agree that it was morally wrong, but it's also the person's fault for divulging their personal information into a game setting.  There are people every where that would do this in any game, given the chance.  If you know Eve then you should know this.  I feel for the guy in real life, but have no sympathy for what he lost in game.  When I played I lost a lot, but never due to a trust misconception.  I only trusted real people, whom know personally.

They were old friends he had before leaving EvE. When he came back after going into remission they pretended to still be his friends then lured him out to be ganked. If you think that's ok you have serious issues.  But it's not the players totally at fault here, it's the developer who takes no action and sets no boundaries.

It was not an in game thing, it was purely a scumbag move to gank a guy with cancer to try to outdo the last scumbag meta gaming low for some noteriety.

YouSama

Thanks for sharing this with us. Crossed EVE out of my "might pay to try again" list.

augustgrace

I play with a large community of gamers that pride themselves on patience, inclusivity, and a welcoming environment.  I've seen that maintained across a broad spectrum of online games, from mmorpgs, mobas, shooters and more.  It all breaks down in the face of Eve.

People who would normally come down hard on any in-game associates for using racist, homophobic, sexist, or other hate speech, suddenly shrug when it pointed out amongst their fellows within a corporation and broader alliances.  I've never seen a game so fraught with anti-semetism and N-bombs, and the community not only accepts it, but defends these behaviors.

Listening to a clip of voice talks between corp members, is like seeing the darkness depths of a physco ward, in which the inmates are in charge.

Bigdavo

Originally posted by Ikonoclastia

Originally posted by kairel182

After re-reading your post, I seriously have to question why you're whining about this.  Why ANYONE would know about this person recovering from cancer is beyond me.  Why would someone put their personal life into the game unless it was someone they trusted?  Obviously this was a douchebag move if they knew beforehand that this was the case, but it doesn't in the least break any sort of rules nor is it against the game code.  This is NOT harassment, this is standard run of the mill trust being entirely misplaced.  Especially in null-sec, where ANYTHING GOES.  You know, anything.  There's nothing that can't be destroyed and anything beyond liquid ISK is a liability.

 

I agree that it was morally wrong, but it's also the person's fault for divulging their personal information into a game setting.  There are people every where that would do this in any game, given the chance.  If you know Eve then you should know this.  I feel for the guy in real life, but have no sympathy for what he lost in game.  When I played I lost a lot, but never due to a trust misconception.  I only trusted real people, whom know personally.

They were old friends he had before leaving EvE. When he came back after going into remission they pretended to still be his friends then lured him out to be ganked. If you think that's ok you have serious issues.  But it's not the players totally at fault here, it's the developer who takes no action and sets no boundaries.

It was not an in game thing, it was purely a scumbag move to gank a guy with cancer to try to outdo the last scumbag meta gaming low for some noteriety.

I don't know what you expect CCP to do in a case like this? I 100% agree that what you have described is an absolute dick move, but there is a line that has to be crossed before a company can take action.

Game-wise what they did is completely allowable.

However I ask you, was the guy directly attacked or harassed because of his condition. Were words said afterwards to the affect of mocking or bullying him?

 

Ikonoclastia

Originally posted by Bigdavo

Originally posted by Ikonoclastia

Originally posted by kairel182

After re-reading your post, I seriously have to question why you're whining about this.  Why ANYONE would know about this person recovering from cancer is beyond me.  Why would someone put their personal life into the game unless it was someone they trusted?  Obviously this was a douchebag move if they knew beforehand that this was the case, but it doesn't in the least break any sort of rules nor is it against the game code.  This is NOT harassment, this is standard run of the mill trust being entirely misplaced.  Especially in null-sec, where ANYTHING GOES.  You know, anything.  There's nothing that can't be destroyed and anything beyond liquid ISK is a liability.

 

I agree that it was morally wrong, but it's also the person's fault for divulging their personal information into a game setting.  There are people every where that would do this in any game, given the chance.  If you know Eve then you should know this.  I feel for the guy in real life, but have no sympathy for what he lost in game.  When I played I lost a lot, but never due to a trust misconception.  I only trusted real people, whom know personally.

They were old friends he had before leaving EvE. When he came back after going into remission they pretended to still be his friends then lured him out to be ganked. If you think that's ok you have serious issues.  But it's not the players totally at fault here, it's the developer who takes no action and sets no boundaries.

It was not an in game thing, it was purely a scumbag move to gank a guy with cancer to try to outdo the last scumbag meta gaming low for some noteriety.

I don't know what you expect CCP to do in a case like this? I 100% agree that what you have described is an absolute dick move, but there is a line that has to be crossed before a company can take action.

Game-wise what they did is completely allowable.

However I ask you, was the guy directly attacked or harassed because of his condition. Were words said afterwards to the affect of mocking or bullying him?

 

Outright banning I would expect from any responsible games company. There doesn't have to a specific rule when there's a rule in almost all EULAs that states you may not perform actions that damages the reputation of a game. If you think knowingly luring a player with cancer by lying to them about your intentions so you can destroy their stuff and ruin that players enjoyment of the game doesn't damage the companies reputation go and ask your mom, wife, sister if they would let their child play in a game that promotes that sort of thing.

Unless you're a sociopath you and I and everyone else knows that's both immoral and wrong. 

 

saurus123

Originally posted by DrunkWolf

Originally posted by Ikonoclastia
..........

 

it reminds me of how people treat each other in real life.

in real life you can punch these ppl in the face

MamasGun

Originally posted by Ikonoclastia

 Recently a coalition (NC Dot) invited a person whom they knew was recovering from cancer to join their coalition.  They invited him to put all this stuff into a carrier and provided him with a cynosaural jump point into their null sec space.  They then proceeded to blow everything he had up and pod him.  A guy with cancer? This is the sort of depravity that should never exist in any game.  What did CCP do? Nothing.  

Wow... this is probably going to give me nightmares.  That is so amazingly fucked up.... Someone with some fucked up disease just trying to find some comfort and distraction from their life.  Wow... another notch for the hope of humanity has sadly been taken from my soul just by reading this.

If I had a time machine, I'd go back and kick their mothers straight in the clam.  Hard. 

This is exactly why -most- people don't want a FFA Sandbox.  You leave people to their own devices, and they are just the worst kind of worst you can imagine.  The Devil ain't got SHIT on some human beings.  And I don't believe in his ass, because humans scare me more.

I've heard some pretty terribad things about EVE.  That paragraph right there is the worst thing I have ever heard about anyone in any game- legion of WoW trolls considered.

Thank you, I guess, for drawing this to my attention.  Never planned on playing, but I like to know fucked up shit like that.  Wish there was some way to un-know it.

"in real life you can punch these ppl in the face "

This is exactly why people grief and BM online- no repercussion.  I guarn-got-damn-tee you they don't treat people like that in real life because of the threat of someone being able to do something about it.  I'd bet my bottom dollar and last breath that all the people that call other people fa**ots or n***ers, or fa**ot  n***ers online would never in a million years say it to someones face.  And that is the true problem with... the internet, or people?

sgel

You KNOW griefing is allowed, yet you expect CCP to do something about people griefing you?

You have many negative comments about the community of the game yet you've been playing since 2003 ?

 

EvE is awesome for giving people the ability to behave like that. No other game allows so many interesting negative and positive player interactions.

The mechanics behind the game allow so many intuitive ways of playing with other people or scamming other people or killing other people. For every negative interaction there's numerous positive interactions. Shit you don't even have to log in to EvE to play the meta or politics game

I've been scammed (once) and my corp has been robbed dry 3 times.... our core still goes on and we play what we enjoy.

Got tired of null? go to a Wormhole or FW for a bit. Go roam/camp lowsec. Do a bit of suicide ganking in high sec. Got tired in general? take a break from EvE.. come back later.. etc etc

So many things to do which is all due to the freedom and true sandbox CCP has created.

Every competent  alliance in the game is also famous for it's elitist or shit or griefing attitude.

 

Goons and their coalition are famous for being Goons.. yet they are the No1 content creators in the game. They also have A LOT of players and they seem to manage them really well as well as giving them quite a few benefits. They love suicide ganking and trolling the shit out of people. 

Black Legion used to drop on everything and everyone, one day they would help you kill caps the other day were dropping on your caps, they'd make beautiful videos and mock you on the forums. People stopped fighting them eventually so half their members got bored and left and the rest are doing small scale roams or something now.

Pandemic Legion is the bitter vet graveyard... where bitter vets go to die or good players go when they are tired of trying and want some easymode bragging. They have so many good FCs and content creators they've leeched from other alliances yet they create fuck all content apart from using their numerous supers to grind more renter space. Their feeder alliance gets more kills than them these days. They've signed an agreement with Goons to keep both their sovs safe.... bleh.

Northern Coalition. has supers. They never engage in subcaps unless they KNOW they'll win and they recruit anyone with a super and a pulse. That's why they have more supers than any other alliance in the game. They don't seem to brag or troll a lot but when they do they're bad at it. They're bros with PL which means they use their supers without danger.

There's loads of other smaller groups but I can't be bothered to mention them all. Anyway.. griefing and trolling is in every alliance, it's part of the game. You get used to it... or you stick with people you like. You're free to play as you want... so do it.

I should probably stop typing now....

Bottom line is there's never going to be another game like EvE that allows you this much freedom in pretty much every aspect of the game.

 

Xyire

So, there are crappy people in the world.  Either place your trust in them and be ok if you get betrayed, or only trust people that are not crappy people.  

 

Sure what they did was a total dick move but... in a game where ffa pvp exists, and you have established "safer" areas... to go out into the unsafe zone, and get killed is kinda a given.  No one should  venture out to null sec zones with anything they arn't ok with losing.  

 

Your friend got taken advantage of, sure.  But that's how piracy works.  If you want to play eve and be safe, stay in the high sec areas.  

 

On a side note, a better reason that you shouldn't play eve is it is menu's the game.  Honestly, if you try it or have played it you likely know what I mean.  combat is just a movie of the menus you are clicking to target, move and attack.  Yuck.

Teala

Originally posted by jesteralways

Originally posted by kairel182

Get over it.  The game works around griefing freedom.  

Here fixed that for you.

Originally posted by kairel182

After re-reading your post, I seriously have to question why you're whining about this.  Why ANYONE would know about this person recovering from cancer is beyond me.  Why would someone put their personal life into the game unless it was someone they trusted?  Obviously this was a douchebag move if they knew beforehand that this was the case, but it doesn't in the least break any sort of rules nor is it against the game code.  This is NOT harassment, this is standard run of the mill trust being entirely misplaced.  Especially in null-sec, where ANYTHING GOES.  You know, anything.  There's nothing that can't be destroyed and anything beyond liquid ISK is a liability.

 

I agree that it was morally wrong, but it's also the person's fault for divulging their personal information into a game setting.  There are people every where that would do this in any game, given the chance.  If you know Eve then you should know this.  I feel for the guy in real life, but have no sympathy for what he lost in game.  When I played I lost a lot, but never due to a trust misconception.  I only trusted real people, whom know personally.

Yes of course. next thing you will say :- "a girl who is raped is at fault, of course the rapists did something wrong but the girl should never have left her house and never should have walked among unknown people"

It has become a common thing these days to blame the victim for their misfortune and antagonize them. People like you are simply disgusting.

People like you disgust me.   You compare game grief to rape.   Have you ever been raped?   I have some very harsh words I want to say, but unfortunately I'd be banned for saying them so I will keep them to myself.   But don't ever compare game griefing to rape.   You have no clue what you are talking about.

MamasGun

ALSO: Important note: everyone that's saying "it's freedom in game" and "freedom that'- go ring the Liberty Bell.  When the OP stated he was banned for questioning the GM's decisions, that's fascism.  That's a dictatorship.  There ain't no freedom if you can't openly speak about what the GM's do or do not- regardless of it it's in-game or in the forums.

Clearly people need to be taught about freedoms.  Everyone talking about "the big government taking their guns" (in real life) and "putting rules in a game" (in EVE) limiting freedoms is just... asinine.  Wake up, people.  Take your heads out of your asses and learn how to be respectable human beings.  Just because your parents didn't want to teach you better doesn't mean you shouldn't strive to be better.

If you knew better, you'd do better.  That is all.

Dr_Shivinski

So the OP finds two of the most extreme forms of dickery that have occured in EVE and that's supposed to paint a picture of it's entire 10 year history? Get the f**k out. 

Yes there are griefers. In any multiplayer game ever made! You think things like this never happened in UO or EQ or Runescape? I bet those were HORRIBLE games where only the scum of the earth would go to interact, and I bet you that in most cases no action was taken against the griefers because they were still within the terms of service. 

We can all agree that taking advantage of an ill man is deplorable, and The Mittani's treatment of the suicidal guy was utterly shit though he was punished for that even if it was just a slap on the wrist (he had to eat a 30 day ban, probably should have been longer but that's in the past) But to paint the entire history of EVE in this light, and say that all of us that play it are psychopaths just makes you and your claims look weak.

I've been playing EVE on and off for 7 years and I have never actually griefed anyone, I try to help everyone that I can because that is what brings me joy. If I were ever any good at the game I would probably be a teacher in E-Uni because nothing is more fun than watching people new to the game get their feet into the sandbox and get wholly sucked into its near infinite possibilities. Now not all of my friends in game and out agree with that and some of them enjoy harvesting some tears from time to time, the difference between them and what you're trying to describe is that they are not doing it to be vindictive and cruel, and they as most griefer's don't take it such an extreme. 

Just keep in mind that you can't legitimately generalize every aspect of a game or it's players based on the actions of such a tiny fraction of it's players.  And you can't expect CCP to just start banning griefers, they expect us to handle it ourselves. Remember you can always blow them up too.

 

MamasGun

Originally posted by Teala

Originally posted by jesteralways

Originally posted by kairel182

Get over it.  The game works around griefing freedom.  

Here fixed that for you.

Originally posted by kairel182

After re-reading your post, I seriously have to question why you're whining about this.  Why ANYONE would know about this person recovering from cancer is beyond me.  Why would someone put their personal life into the game unless it was someone they trusted?  Obviously this was a douchebag move if they knew beforehand that this was the case, but it doesn't in the least break any sort of rules nor is it against the game code.  This is NOT harassment, this is standard run of the mill trust being entirely misplaced.  Especially in null-sec, where ANYTHING GOES.  You know, anything.  There's nothing that can't be destroyed and anything beyond liquid ISK is a liability.

 

I agree that it was morally wrong, but it's also the person's fault for divulging their personal information into a game setting.  There are people every where that would do this in any game, given the chance.  If you know Eve then you should know this.  I feel for the guy in real life, but have no sympathy for what he lost in game.  When I played I lost a lot, but never due to a trust misconception.  I only trusted real people, whom know personally.

Yes of course. next thing you will say :- "a girl who is raped is at fault, of course the rapists did something wrong but the girl should never have left her house and never should have walked among unknown people"

It has become a common thing these days to blame the victim for their misfortune and antagonize them. People like you are simply disgusting.

People like you disgust me.   You compare game grief to rape.   Have you ever been raped?   I have some very harsh words I want to say, but unfortunately I'd be banned for saying them so I will keep them to myself.   But don't ever compare game griefing to rape.   You have no clue what you are talking about.

It was an example.  Albeit not a good one, grant you, but it does fit the topic at hand.  To dismiss what this person said, especially this part- "It has become a common thing these days to blame the victim for their misfortune and antagonize them. People like you are simply disgusting."- which I find to be more true everyday I load into any online game and see someone harassing someone else, is the big problem here- everyone just dismissing the people that want to make the world a better place.

I don't know you, nor what you have been through, and I agree, that example was a bit extreme.  But so is the way people treat each other. 

Out of everything you read (if you read the entire thread), that was what disturbed you? Wow... simply... wow.  Put your head back in the sand- you obviously prefer it that way.

Dr_Shivinski

Originally posted by MamasGun

ALSO: Important note: everyone that's saying "it's freedom in game" and "freedom that'- go ring the Liberty Bell.  When the OP stated he was banned for questioning the GM's decisions, that's fascism.  That's a dictatorship.  There ain't no freedom if you can't openly speak about what the GM's do or do not- regardless of it it's in-game or in the forums.

Clearly people need to be taught about freedoms.  Everyone talking about "the big government taking their guns" (in real life) and "putting rules in a game" (in EVE) limiting freedoms is just... asinine.  Wake up, people.  Take your heads out of oyur asses and learn how to be respectable human beings.  Just because your parents didn't want to teach you better doesn't mean you shouldn't strive to be better.

If you knew better, you'd do better.  That is all.

Reading comprehension much? The OP never said he was banned. He wasn't banned. His thread was locked and it had nothing to do with his OP but rather the 20 something pages of people flaming him that caused the lock. CCP is incredibly tolerant of people criticizing them, you should see some of the recent threadnaughts about the changes to XL turret tracking and everyone claiming the CCP is a Goon pet and this that and the other.

Blasphim

Originally posted by MamasGun

Originally posted by Ikonoclastia

 Recently a coalition (NC Dot) invited a person whom they knew was recovering from cancer to join their coalition.  They invited him to put all this stuff into a carrier and provided him with a cynosaural jump point into their null sec space.  They then proceeded to blow everything he had up and pod him.  A guy with cancer? This is the sort of depravity that should never exist in any game.  What did CCP do? Nothing.  

Wow... this is probably going to give me nightmares.  That is so amazingly fucked up.... Someone with some fucked up disease just trying to find some comfort and distraction from their life.  Wow... another notch for the hope of humanity has sadly been taken from my soul just by reading this.

If I had a time machine, I'd go back and kick their mothers straight in the clam.  Hard. 

This is exactly why -most- people don't want a FFA Sandbox.  You leave people to their own devices, and they are just the worst kind of worst you can imagine.  The Devil ain't got SHIT on some human beings.  And I don't believe in his ass, because humans scare me more.

I've heard some pretty terribad things about EVE.  That paragraph right there is the worst thing I have ever heard about anyone in any game- legion of WoW trolls considered.

Thank you, I guess, for drawing this to my attention.  Never planned on playing, but I like to know fucked up shit like that.  Wish there was some way to un-know it.

"in real life you can punch these ppl in the face "

This is exactly why people grief and BM online- no repercussion.  I guarn-got-damn-tee you they don't treat people like that in real life because of the threat of someone being able to do something about it.  I'd bet my bottom dollar and last breath that all the people that call other people fa**ots or n***ers, or fa**ot  n***ers online would never in a million years say it to someones face.  And that is the true problem with... the internet, or people?

it reminds me of that story bout the kid who harassed the middle aged guy in CoD, and then the guy tracks him down and chokes him....bet that kid don't shit talk anymore.  Middle aged guy went to jail, and he should have, but again, bet that kid is nothing but respectful to people now.

MamasGun

Originally posted by Dr_Shivinski

Originally posted by MamasGun

ALSO: Important note: everyone that's saying "it's freedom in game" and "freedom that'- go ring the Liberty Bell.  When the OP stated he was banned for questioning the GM's decisions, that's fascism.  That's a dictatorship.  There ain't no freedom if you can't openly speak about what the GM's do or do not- regardless of it it's in-game or in the forums.

Clearly people need to be taught about freedoms.  Everyone talking about "the big government taking their guns" (in real life) and "putting rules in a game" (in EVE) limiting freedoms is just... asinine.  Wake up, people.  Take your heads out of oyur asses and learn how to be respectable human beings.  Just because your parents didn't want to teach you better doesn't mean you shouldn't strive to be better.

If you knew better, you'd do better.  That is all.

Reading comprehension much? The OP never said he was banned. He wasn't banned. His thread was locked and it had nothing to do with his OP but rather the 20 something pages of people flaming him that caused the lock. CCP is incredibly tolerant of people criticizing them, you should see some of the recent threadnaughts about the changes to XL turret tracking and everyone claiming the CCP is a Goon pet and this that and the other.

And to attack some complete strangers reading comprehension makes you.. what?  Big man on campus? You see, you attack my reading comprehension because that is all you know of me- we're online.  Run with what you want, but I can tell you, you have no weight in this discussion. All you're doing is helping to further prove the point of idiots online, so- a BIG well done, you. Thanks!  Makes my point that much more easier.

Okay, he didn't get banned- the thread got locked.  Same diff in my eyes- silencing those trying to shed some light on a shitty situation. 

Go back to EvE Online where you belong, please; the grown ups are trying to talk. This is grown-folks business.  Adult swim- kiddies outta the pool.

Er ma gawd- the world needs better parents (or thicker condoms).

MamasGun

Originally posted by Blasphim

Originally posted by MamasGun

Originally posted by Ikonoclastia

 Recently a coalition (NC Dot) invited a person whom they knew was recovering from cancer to join their coalition.  They invited him to put all this stuff into a carrier and provided him with a cynosaural jump point into their null sec space.  They then proceeded to blow everything he had up and pod him.  A guy with cancer? This is the sort of depravity that should never exist in any game.  What did CCP do? Nothing.  

Wow... this is probably going to give me nightmares.  That is so amazingly fucked up.... Someone with some fucked up disease just trying to find some comfort and distraction from their life.  Wow... another notch for the hope of humanity has sadly been taken from my soul just by reading this.

If I had a time machine, I'd go back and kick their mothers straight in the clam.  Hard. 

This is exactly why -most- people don't want a FFA Sandbox.  You leave people to their own devices, and they are just the worst kind of worst you can imagine.  The Devil ain't got SHIT on some human beings.  And I don't believe in his ass, because humans scare me more.

I've heard some pretty terribad things about EVE.  That paragraph right there is the worst thing I have ever heard about anyone in any game- legion of WoW trolls considered.

Thank you, I guess, for drawing this to my attention.  Never planned on playing, but I like to know fucked up shit like that.  Wish there was some way to un-know it.

"in real life you can punch these ppl in the face "

This is exactly why people grief and BM online- no repercussion.  I guarn-got-damn-tee you they don't treat people like that in real life because of the threat of someone being able to do something about it.  I'd bet my bottom dollar and last breath that all the people that call other people fa**ots or n***ers, or fa**ot  n***ers online would never in a million years say it to someones face.  And that is the true problem with... the internet, or people?

it reminds me of that story bout the kid who harassed the middle aged guy in CoD, and then the guy tracks him down and chokes him....bet that kid don't shit talk anymore.  Middle aged guy went to jail, and he should have, but again, bet that kid is nothing but respectful to people now.

+1 hope for humanity restored.  Though, I agree, the dude shouldn't have done that... but maybe that was that kids "learning experience".  Everybody needs one, ya know?

Xyire

Originally posted by MamasGun

ALSO: Important note: everyone that's saying "it's freedom in game" and "freedom that'- go ring the Liberty Bell.  When the OP stated he was banned for questioning the GM's decisions, that's fascism.  That's a dictatorship.  There ain't no freedom if you can't openly speak about what the GM's do or do not- regardless of it it's in-game or in the forums.

Clearly people need to be taught about freedoms.  Everyone talking about "the big government taking their guns" (in real life) and "putting rules in a game" (in EVE) limiting freedoms is just... asinine.  Wake up, people.  Take your heads out of oyur asses and learn how to be respectable human beings.  Just because your parents didn't want to teach you better doesn't mean you shouldn't strive to be better.

If you knew better, you'd do better.  That is all.

Just to point out, "freedom in game" that people are talking about is the fact that eve allows "bad guys".  This has nothing to do with the fact someone was banned for questioning a gm.  Likely he was banned for inappropriate conduct.  I have no information on how he treated the GM, but in general people who come on forums and say they were banned for "questioning a gm" really mean they were very rude and bitchy to the GM which is against the TOS and they get banned entirely for how they say what they say, not what they say.

 

Speaking of knowing and doing better, perhaps grouping all people with ideas that disagree with your own into a stereotype then denouncing them is one of the behaviors that people should know better and do better about.

 

Back to bad guys though, in a sandbox game, both bad and good guys are important to have an interesting and meaningful conflict.  If no one was acting the part of "bad guy" in eve, it would be a mining and trading simulator.  The groups that police areas would no longer need to exist and all security would be meaningless.  Eve is attempting to create a world with conflicts similar to those in the real world (criminals and police and regular folks) for this to work, all of the different types of people need be present.  Also, this is not refering to what happened to that person, purely a response to the "freedom" in EVE.

MamasGun

Originally posted by Xyire

Originally posted by MamasGun

ALSO: Important note: everyone that's saying "it's freedom in game" and "freedom that'- go ring the Liberty Bell.  When the OP stated he was banned for questioning the GM's decisions, that's fascism.  That's a dictatorship.  There ain't no freedom if you can't openly speak about what the GM's do or do not- regardless of it it's in-game or in the forums.

Clearly people need to be taught about freedoms.  Everyone talking about "the big government taking their guns" (in real life) and "putting rules in a game" (in EVE) limiting freedoms is just... asinine.  Wake up, people.  Take your heads out of oyur asses and learn how to be respectable human beings.  Just because your parents didn't want to teach you better doesn't mean you shouldn't strive to be better.

If you knew better, you'd do better.  That is all.

Just to point out, "freedom in game" that people are talking about is the fact that eve allows "bad guys".  This has nothing to do with the fact someone was banned for questioning a gm.  Likely he was banned for inappropriate conduct.  I have no information on how he treated the GM, but in general people who come on forums and say they were banned for "questioning a gm" really mean they were very rude and bitchy to the GM which is against the TOS and they get banned entirely for how they say what they say, not what they say.

 

Speaking of knowing and doing better, perhaps grouping all people with ideas that disagree with your own into a stereotype then denouncing them is one of the behaviors that people should know better and do better about.

 

Back to bad guys though, in a sandbox game, both bad and good guys are important to have an interesting and meaningful conflict.  If no one was acting the part of "bad guy" in eve, it would be a mining and trading simulator.  The groups that police areas would no longer need to exist and all security would be meaningless.  Eve is attempting to create a world with conflicts similar to those in the real world (criminals and police and regular folks) for this to work, all of the different types of people need be present.  Also, this is not refering to what happened to that person, purely a response to the "freedom" in EVE.

Delicious food for thought.  Thank you very much for succinctly taking the time to form a sagacious response.  Wish there was someway to see the forum post...

Again, thank you.  It's something to mull over, for sure.

Spectre_06

---

Originally posted by MamasGun ALSO: Important note: everyone that's saying "it's freedom in game" and "freedom that'- go ring the Liberty Bell.  When the OP stated he was banned for questioning the GM's decisions, that's fascism.  That's a dictatorship.  There ain't no freedom if you can't openly speak about what the GM's do or do not- regardless of it it's in-game or in the forums. Clearly people need to be taught about freedoms.  Everyone talking about "the big government taking their guns" (in real life) and "putting rules in a game" (in EVE) limiting freedoms is just... asinine.  Wake up, people.  Take your heads out of your asses and learn how to be respectable human beings.  Just because your parents didn't want to teach you better doesn't mean you shouldn't strive to be better. If you knew better, you'd do better.  That is all.

---

See, I'm going to stop you right there.

When you begin playing in a game, you are required to follow certain rules.  When you post on that game's forums, you have to follow certain rules.  In any game I can think of that I have played (MMOs, mind you), there is one universal clause: you are no allowed to talk about GM decisions. There's reasons for this, and chief among them is so that they aren't forced to make a one-size-fits-all decision when X happens. There are far too many self-entitled people running about expecting that because something happened last time, then there should be no difference with this time (unless, of course, it's happening to you in which case you should just get a warning). This is not specific to EvE Online.

EvE Online is the Mos Eisley of MMOs; this has never been disputed. For you Trekkies, we epitomize the Ferengi Rules of Acquisition, and we are quite Machiavellian in how we go about with our interactions. However, CCP has made many things clear over the years, and many of us know what limits not to push. In general, GMs will respond in a timely manner, even if it seems otherwise.

Recently I was the subject of harassment in Rift. Three people in particular decided to go about the area, calling me a pedophile, among other things. I submitted the ticket, and I'll be honest I Don't think it was ever acted on (one of the people who was harassing me I am on relatively cordial terms with at this time). In the era of F2P games, customer service sadly goes out the window; if you know anything about EvE Online, you would know in 2011 CCP fired it's community service team after the rollout of Incarna, and the Monoclegate fiasco. That is neither here nor there, and I digress. I eventually had to get in touch with a community representative for Rift through the forums to get anything going, but I still don't think it will happen.

This also does not have an effect on "freedoms". You have none on these forums, or any others. Anything you post that the administrators determine is inappropriate for the venue can and will remove it, and many times infract you. EvE Online and ever other MMO will not allow you to post GM correspondence on their forums; third-party servers such as this are acceptable to post them on, however, because there is literally no requirement that you do not. But, you don't have freedom of speech here or anywhere on the internet, no matter how much you want to harp on about being American (and I am an American).

Ziona, I asked you to send me a mail detailing what happened. As an occasional writer for Massively and as I am currently doing a piece on bullying in the MMO world in general, I thought I could help you. You decided to throw a tantrum on the forums, open up multiple threads when you knew you shouldn't, and in general acted like a petulant child. In the end, after watching that I am not sorry to see you go.

If you were banned it was by your own doing. But you were leaving anyways, so whatever. Take care, wherever you decide to go, but don't act like this when you get there. You'll only ostracize yourself before you can set up a foundation to succeed.

Respectfully,

Spectre 06

(EvE in-game name: Anya Klibor)