Well this move just cemented me. I didnt buy the game for another reason and was watching to see if they fixed it before I bought it. This IMO makes AvA and zerg = win move. I am glad I didnt buy ESO. I really hope they change this for the PvP sake. They could even make it so the limited number of targets that gets hit by AoE only work that way on NPCs or in the PvE only maps.
ZM is really showing their colors as being inexperienced at managing an MMO. They have rallied PvPers to their game but now they keep backhanding them. Why bother taking on the DAoC model if they going to drive away the hardcore PvPers?
As much of a fan of this game as I am if this goes through I'll most likely quit. I'm 100% they are going to backtrack on this change considering 92% of people on the official forums say NO to AoE caps. If they don't back track I'll just play the PvE till I'm done and get my PvP out of LoL and BF4.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV Have played: You name it If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
yep if this goes to live and stays i can easily see a ton of people quitting as it becomes guild wars 2 zerge vs zerge and boring as hell. People here in support of nerfing aoes to hit 6 targets obviously do not understand the word Area in AOE. Valid tactics in all games with realm vs realm style pvp should be defending keeps is easier than taking them and with less numbers. Now with this garbage guild wars 2 mentality people actually think zerging is the way to win instead of using tactics.
It works both ways also for people like panzer who cannot seem to grasp pvp skill. If you zerge you show no skill , it takes much more skill to setup a aoe door train with a group of a few players and actually win vs having 50 players storm a door spamming heals until the doors are down and then zerging in. Anytime a good group of people get together and work well as a team killing stupid sheep zergers, that majority voice whom just cannot seem to understand what play better means would rather come to boards and cry , hence why we get nerfs in the first place. AOE is far from broken and should be a tactic to repel a zerge with no skills and nitwits leading them.
We seen this in DAOC and Warhammer, bad players whom cannot think on their own crying nerf constantly because they lacked the skill to beat certain groups whom used vent and worked well together. Guild Wars 2 on the other hand , thats just another issue entirely that was probably the most unskilled garbage ive ever played calling itself a realm vs realm style pvp....
Please Zen do not nerf a tactic because zergers cannot learn to play and get better.
Originally posted by Aeonblades As much of a fan of this game as I am if this goes through I'll most likely quit. I'm 100% they are going to backtrack on this change considering 92% of people on the official forums say NO to AoE caps. If they don't back track I'll just play the PvE till I'm done and get my PvP out of LoL and BF4.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that their servers can't handle unfettered AoE spam, and this has been one of the major problems with all the lagg/delay in Cyrodill (particularly since they don't seem to want to admit it or be honest with the changes). Where there's smoke, there's fire.
Same thing was, ultimately, happening in WAR as unfettered AoE from Brightwizards could bring the game to its knees.
Oh dang, this change can't go in. AoE is always a mess in RvR games, but limiting to 6 people is a bad idea. If this is implemented the prevailing strategy will be to stack 50 people on top of each other so the AoE damage is limited to only 6 of those people. 42 remain untouched and you have a zerging mass as one. A la GW2 WvW tactics.
AS a NB single target DPSr I love how zerg fights are spread out. My small group can pick of tons of people on the edges. In GW2 it was next to impossible to work the edges of the enemy zerg because there are not any edges. GW2 tactics are like one dude multi boxing 30 players. Hope this cap is rethought.
There has to be another way to fix this. Lower the damage, increase the resource cost, etc.
AoE caps are needed. There is no justification for 5 V10 guys using their AoE and down 50 people....
let it be this way untill the people also reach V10 and the real game balance can be adjusted to a better level.
Right now its just ridiculous....
Tweak battleleveling for more power to the lower levels, tweak the abused AoE skills, but don't put an AoE cap thats already changing the zerging meta.
Watch the video about turtling some posts behind, it's LIVE, not PTS, the turtling is starting.
Originally posted by Malevil Aoe with caps promotes zerging, it si bad in any game but it is cattering devs to bad players.
That's a bad way of handling zergs, though. All it would do is limit the effective PvP skills to those that are AoE. It would be two zergs AoEing each other, nothing more.
If you don't like zerg gameplay, don't play an MMO with open-world PvP. Because that's basically what it will always boil down to, regardless of how elegant the PvP system may be.
If you shoot out a blast of lightning into an area, if there are too many targets it starts to do less damage per target.
Single person attack does say 500
Multi person attack does say 200 x 6 or 100 x 12 or 50 x 24. It is still worth more than the single attack.
When a multi person attack does 200 x 24 then it is simply too powerful and ends up doing 75 and then is useless except in the case of a ton of enemies.
The AoE caps are already in the game for the vast majority of skills; there are just a handful for which this is not true. The premise here (about the change) is not correct.
I don't see why there should be such a gross imbalance between AoE and single target damage, and why it's good design to make the former far more useful than the latter. Or why it's good design to have a handful of abilities that have unlimited targets and the remainder that don't.
Oh dang, this change can't go in. AoE is always a mess in RvR games, but limiting to 6 people is a bad idea. If this is implemented the prevailing strategy will be to stack 50 people on top of each other so the AoE damage is limited to only 6 of those people. 42 remain untouched and you have a zerging mass as one. A la GW2 WvW tactics.
AS a NB single target DPSr I love how zerg fights are spread out. My small group can pick of tons of people on the edges. In GW2 it was next to impossible to work the edges of the enemy zerg because there are not any edges. GW2 tactics are like one dude multi boxing 30 players. Hope this cap is rethought.
There has to be another way to fix this. Lower the damage, increase the resource cost, etc.
I very much enjoy zerg surfing on my thief thank you.
Its not games fault that your side didnt have the brains to break/divide enemy zerg. Thats called skill.
Same thing happened in WoW, AoE got scaled back and all you heard for months was DON'T NERF ME BRO OR I'LL QUIT. Some things never change. Once you give players an option to mindlessly slaughter people and call it skill it's hard to break them free of the teat.
Oh dang, this change can't go in. AoE is always a mess in RvR games, but limiting to 6 people is a bad idea. If this is implemented the prevailing strategy will be to stack 50 people on top of each other so the AoE damage is limited to only 6 of those people. 42 remain untouched and you have a zerging mass as one. A la GW2 WvW tactics.
AS a NB single target DPSr I love how zerg fights are spread out. My small group can pick of tons of people on the edges. In GW2 it was next to impossible to work the edges of the enemy zerg because there are not any edges. GW2 tactics are like one dude multi boxing 30 players. Hope this cap is rethought.
There has to be another way to fix this. Lower the damage, increase the resource cost, etc.
I very much enjoy zerg surfing on my thief thank you.
Its not games fault that your side didnt have the brains to break/divide enemy zerg. Thats called skill.
I'm not sure I understand your post. I didn't say a thief couldn't zerg in GW2 nor mention a zerg couldn't be broken. I was discussing the mechanics of GW2 stacking due to AoE caps....
Originally posted by Malevil Aoe with caps promotes zerging, it si bad in any game but it is cattering devs to bad players.
Welcome to DaoC 2.0
I remember them nerfing Champion, Hero, Druid and Warden into oblivion(pun!) all within 3 months of release making Hibernia the redheaded step child of the game for a few years.
Oh dang, this change can't go in. AoE is always a mess in RvR games, but limiting to 6 people is a bad idea. If this is implemented the prevailing strategy will be to stack 50 people on top of each other so the AoE damage is limited to only 6 of those people. 42 remain untouched and you have a zerging mass as one. A la GW2 WvW tactics.
AS a NB single target DPSr I love how zerg fights are spread out. My small group can pick of tons of people on the edges. In GW2 it was next to impossible to work the edges of the enemy zerg because there are not any edges. GW2 tactics are like one dude multi boxing 30 players. Hope this cap is rethought.
There has to be another way to fix this. Lower the damage, increase the resource cost, etc.
I very much enjoy zerg surfing on my thief thank you.
Its not games fault that your side didnt have the brains to break/divide enemy zerg. Thats called skill.
I'm not sure I understand your post. I didn't say a thief couldn't zerg in GW2 nor mention a zerg couldn't be broken. I was discussing the mechanics of GW2 stacking due to AoE caps....
AoE caps are needed. There is no justification for 5 V10 guys using their AoE and down 50 people....
let it be this way untill the people also reach V10 and the real game balance can be adjusted to a better level.
Right now its just ridiculous....
Tweak battleleveling for more power to the lower levels, tweak the abused AoE skills, but don't put an AoE cap thats already changing the zerging meta.
Watch the video about turtling some posts behind, it's LIVE, not PTS, the turtling is starting.
The answer to this in any game isn't unfettered aoe. The answer to combating the zerg should always be control. Isn't that one of the hallmarks of DAoC pvp?
It was a bad idea to let unfettered aoe be published to release. Now players have a taste and removing it will cause a huge stink for a while until everyone gets over it.
I'm sorry, But do you not know how DAOC pvp worked? Combating a zerg in DAOC was a direct result of AOE, You generally just used the Control (Be it AoE stun or AoE Mez) to keep them in place long enough for you to blow them up with AoE's and then proceed to use Single Target spells and attacks to kill anyone left.
Originally posted by Malevil Aoe with caps promotes zerging, it si bad in any game but it is cattering devs to bad players.
Welcome to DaoC 2.0
I remember them nerfing Champion, Hero, Druid and Warden into oblivion(pun!) all within 3 months of release making Hibernia the redheaded step child of the game for a few years.
At no point in DAOC was hibernia a red headed step child.
You listed 3 Classes that were used in Hib groups for a very long time, and 1 that got nerfed at the start of the game because it had a debuff that could instantly make someone have 1 HP (Champion), and while it was poor class, it instantly became a lot better once they redid the RA's and then became a very good class with TOA.
I remember them nerfing Champion, Hero, Druid and Warden into oblivion(pun!) all within 3 months of release making Hibernia the redheaded step child of the game for a few years.
At no point in DAOC was hibernia a red headed step child.
You listed 3 Classes that were used in Hib groups for a very long time, and 1 that got nerfed at the start of the game because it had a debuff that could instantly make someone have 1 HP (Champion), and while it was poor class, it instantly became a lot better once they redid the RA's and then became a very good class with TOA.
Really, then can you please explain the in game protests held almost 2 years after release and why Jacobs himself lists not fixing Hibernia for almost 3 years as his biggest mistake as a game maker? And anyone that was in the DaoC beta remembers that Hibernia was added to the game mere months before release and was not fleshed out.
I didn't say DaoC was a bad game, I pointed to one of its flaws, its biggest.
What happened to "split up" and "GTFO of the AoE?" One of the things that was cool about PvP was the fact that you couldn't just World War Z your way through encounters. Really? Stacking in ESO now? FML. They're not gonna renig on this anytime soon. I know it would cause griefing but I wish there was PVP collision detection in ESO.
"As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*"
Comments
Well this move just cemented me. I didnt buy the game for another reason and was watching to see if they fixed it before I bought it. This IMO makes AvA and zerg = win move. I am glad I didnt buy ESO. I really hope they change this for the PvP sake. They could even make it so the limited number of targets that gets hit by AoE only work that way on NPCs or in the PvE only maps.
ZM is really showing their colors as being inexperienced at managing an MMO. They have rallied PvPers to their game but now they keep backhanding them. Why bother taking on the DAoC model if they going to drive away the hardcore PvPers?
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
Have played: You name it
If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
yep if this goes to live and stays i can easily see a ton of people quitting as it becomes guild wars 2 zerge vs zerge and boring as hell. People here in support of nerfing aoes to hit 6 targets obviously do not understand the word Area in AOE. Valid tactics in all games with realm vs realm style pvp should be defending keeps is easier than taking them and with less numbers. Now with this garbage guild wars 2 mentality people actually think zerging is the way to win instead of using tactics.
It works both ways also for people like panzer who cannot seem to grasp pvp skill. If you zerge you show no skill , it takes much more skill to setup a aoe door train with a group of a few players and actually win vs having 50 players storm a door spamming heals until the doors are down and then zerging in. Anytime a good group of people get together and work well as a team killing stupid sheep zergers, that majority voice whom just cannot seem to understand what play better means would rather come to boards and cry , hence why we get nerfs in the first place. AOE is far from broken and should be a tactic to repel a zerge with no skills and nitwits leading them.
We seen this in DAOC and Warhammer, bad players whom cannot think on their own crying nerf constantly because they lacked the skill to beat certain groups whom used vent and worked well together. Guild Wars 2 on the other hand , thats just another issue entirely that was probably the most unskilled garbage ive ever played calling itself a realm vs realm style pvp....
Please Zen do not nerf a tactic because zergers cannot learn to play and get better.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that their servers can't handle unfettered AoE spam, and this has been one of the major problems with all the lagg/delay in Cyrodill (particularly since they don't seem to want to admit it or be honest with the changes). Where there's smoke, there's fire.
Same thing was, ultimately, happening in WAR as unfettered AoE from Brightwizards could bring the game to its knees.
AoE caps are needed.
There is no justification for 5 V10 guys using their AoE and down 50 people....
let it be this way untill the people also reach V10 and the real game balance can be adjusted to a better level.
Right now its just ridiculous....
Oh dang, this change can't go in. AoE is always a mess in RvR games, but limiting to 6 people is a bad idea. If this is implemented the prevailing strategy will be to stack 50 people on top of each other so the AoE damage is limited to only 6 of those people. 42 remain untouched and you have a zerging mass as one. A la GW2 WvW tactics.
AS a NB single target DPSr I love how zerg fights are spread out. My small group can pick of tons of people on the edges. In GW2 it was next to impossible to work the edges of the enemy zerg because there are not any edges. GW2 tactics are like one dude multi boxing 30 players. Hope this cap is rethought.
There has to be another way to fix this. Lower the damage, increase the resource cost, etc.
Tweak battleleveling for more power to the lower levels, tweak the abused AoE skills, but don't put an AoE cap thats already changing the zerging meta.
Watch the video about turtling some posts behind, it's LIVE, not PTS, the turtling is starting.
That's a bad way of handling zergs, though. All it would do is limit the effective PvP skills to those that are AoE. It would be two zergs AoEing each other, nothing more.
If you don't like zerg gameplay, don't play an MMO with open-world PvP. Because that's basically what it will always boil down to, regardless of how elegant the PvP system may be.
You make me like charity
Actually it makes sense and is in a lot of games.
If you shoot out a blast of lightning into an area, if there are too many targets it starts to do less damage per target.
Single person attack does say 500
Multi person attack does say 200 x 6 or 100 x 12 or 50 x 24. It is still worth more than the single attack.
When a multi person attack does 200 x 24 then it is simply too powerful and ends up doing 75 and then is useless except in the case of a ton of enemies.
The AoE caps are already in the game for the vast majority of skills; there are just a handful for which this is not true. The premise here (about the change) is not correct.
I don't see why there should be such a gross imbalance between AoE and single target damage, and why it's good design to make the former far more useful than the latter. Or why it's good design to have a handful of abilities that have unlimited targets and the remainder that don't.
I very much enjoy zerg surfing on my thief thank you.
Its not games fault that your side didnt have the brains to break/divide enemy zerg. Thats called skill.
I'm not sure I understand your post. I didn't say a thief couldn't zerg in GW2 nor mention a zerg couldn't be broken. I was discussing the mechanics of GW2 stacking due to AoE caps....
So...free to play before the end of the year? Or will they just close it down?
Welcome to DaoC 2.0
I remember them nerfing Champion, Hero, Druid and Warden into oblivion(pun!) all within 3 months of release making Hibernia the redheaded step child of the game for a few years.
No worries, enjoy ESO.
Except for that whole copying of DAOC, which allowed exactly that
Oh and that whole allowing Small population realms to take on larger population realms
Then ya.... you'd be right... ...But hey, clearly its the 5 V10 that are the problem....and not the 50 Herp a Derps all standing ontop of one another.
I'm sorry, But do you not know how DAOC pvp worked? Combating a zerg in DAOC was a direct result of AOE, You generally just used the Control (Be it AoE stun or AoE Mez) to keep them in place long enough for you to blow them up with AoE's and then proceed to use Single Target spells and attacks to kill anyone left.
At no point in DAOC was hibernia a red headed step child.
You listed 3 Classes that were used in Hib groups for a very long time, and 1 that got nerfed at the start of the game because it had a debuff that could instantly make someone have 1 HP (Champion), and while it was poor class, it instantly became a lot better once they redid the RA's and then became a very good class with TOA.
Really, then can you please explain the in game protests held almost 2 years after release and why Jacobs himself lists not fixing Hibernia for almost 3 years as his biggest mistake as a game maker? And anyone that was in the DaoC beta remembers that Hibernia was added to the game mere months before release and was not fleshed out.
I didn't say DaoC was a bad game, I pointed to one of its flaws, its biggest.
A reminder to perhaps help remove your rose colored glasses, https://forums.freddyshouse.com/threads/balance-issues-in-daoc-long.7497/ & http://www.warcry.com/news/view/4305-DAoC-Hibernian-Protest
I think they should make dark souls 2 easier too
/sarcasm
What happened to "split up" and "GTFO of the AoE?" One of the things that was cool about PvP was the fact that you couldn't just World War Z your way through encounters. Really? Stacking in ESO now? FML. They're not gonna renig on this anytime soon. I know it would cause griefing but I wish there was PVP collision detection in ESO.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Except that GW2 has a good handful of uncapped abilities, just none of the damage dealing ones, mostly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABCya_k0zLA
Soon, ESO will have next to none.