There is one flaw in this story that Mr.Lashley fails to realize when asks why not SOE.
SOE is not even developing their own game,they are trying to do the whole shebam using other people's money that is the EXACT reason they split Landmark and Next up to find a quick way/gimmick to start drawing in funds to develop next.
SOE has been failing on their own for quite some time now,that has nothing to do with Brad but more to do with the President/CEO.
Anyone that knows anything about gaming should realize that Vanguard was a brilliant game,much better than most games out there,it's ONLY draw back was bugs,so an unfinished product>well how is that different than anything we have been seeing since that time,either inferior products or once again bugs and rushed out products.
Point is that anything Brad can be blamed for is easily curved towards all the other developers as well.For it's time Brad was trying and DID succeed in advancing the genre even if only slightly,every game since aide from FFXIV has put out low level developing skills and horrible graphics,so in other words LESS than satisfactory efforts.
I am not at the point to determine if Brad COULD advance the genre again but i am more than certain,he could not do it on a skeleton budget,but then guess what,neither can anyone else.
Of course it is my opinion but there has not been one good game either than perhaps FFXIV [and only slightly] since Vanguard,nothing i would give a Triple A rating to, all sub par efforts.
I think this entire area of business, the gaming industry, even software in general has this same situation. The consumer isn't protected adequately from these "corporate-entities" and their endless rip-offs. The "free-market' has always been a propaganda-lie, without over-site it's just a rampant devouring cancer.
Look Brad and Smedley are cut from the same cloth. It's the piece that rides up the crack of your ass. Both have done some good for gaming but both have really hurt gaming even more. Brad sold out EQ to SOE and then SOE under the supervision of Smelly ruined a good game. Then they come out with EQ2 which ended up being a total joke and a further ruination of the EQ world.
The Brad started Vanguard. Promised to be what EQ2 should have been. People loved the idea. Microsoft was involved and no SOE. Then MS dropped and SOE was back in but Brad promised everyone that SOE is just a publisher and had no say in the game design. Next thing we know all the designers are pulled into the parking lot at work and told they are all fired. Brad was not even there. SOE took over Vanguard and Brad had a job. Smelly and Brad humping each others legs again. The game flops.
I honestly don't know how Brad could have any credibility at this point. I also don't know how Smelly could have a job after the failures he has done. SWG anyone?
Both men have done more to hurt gaming and MMO's as we know them than anyone else in the business.
Anyone that knows anything about gaming should realize that Vanguard was a brilliant game,much better than most games out there,it's ONLY draw back was bugs
You can't be serious.
Taste is a personal thing, there are no facts. And in both my and and many others' personal opinions, Vanguard was simply one of the worst games ever made. And that has nothing to do with the bugs.
As someone else said, no one trusts Brad. That is, at least anyone with more than a couple of brain cells working. Can't prove anything, but I'm 100% sure that is the real reason why this one failed.
Anyone that knows anything about gaming should realize that Vanguard was a brilliant game,much better than most games out there,it's ONLY draw back was bugs
You can't be serious.
Taste is a personal thing, there are no facts. And in both my and and many others' personal opinions, Vanguard was simply one of the worst games ever made. And that has nothing to do with the bugs.
As someone else said, no one trusts Brad. That is, at least anyone with more than a couple of brain cells working. Can't prove anything, but I'm 100% sure that is the real reason why this one failed.
I don't think you're right. I didn't really know who Brad was. The reason I didn't donate to the Kickstarter was because the whole thing looked like a scam. It was so poorly put together and their way of releasing tiny bits of information at a time made it look like they were just making it up as they went along. Most people don't want to go back every day to read stuff that might want to convince them to pay.. I don't think I'm alone in the fact unless I am immediately grabbed I more or less forget about it after one visit.
I have no real opinion on the guy, (Vanguard was too buggy for me to put up with but I didn't play enough to have an opinion past that) but my opinion is that he thought just showing up and saying his name would cause the masses to throw money at him whereas before the rumour-mongering started, I'd really question how many people even knew his name. I didn't and I had played both the games he had had a hand in previously.
I suspect that is the reason why the KS failed more then anything. It was horrible.
The Brad started Vanguard. Promised to be what EQ2 should have been. People loved the idea. Microsoft was involved and no SOE. Then MS dropped and SOE was back in but Brad promised everyone that SOE is just a publisher and had no say in the game design. Next thing we know all the designers are pulled into the parking lot at work and told they are all fired. Brad was not even there. SOE took over Vanguard and Brad had a job. Smelly and Brad humping each others legs again. The game flops.
skipped some
Vanguard launched in Jan 2007 with SOE acting only as publisher
It's a self fulfilling prophecy. If all that is ever said is this guy and what he does is crap, then all people are gonna see when they look is crap. It will be that way whether it's true or not.
The guy is trying to make a game. It's hard, especially so for Brad with all the shade people throw his way. He has made mistakes, and will probably make more. Last I checked, he is human, and therefore not perfect.
I say give him a little room to breath, even if you happen to hate him. I think the game has a better chance to be made if every media outlet and their respective commenters aren't trying to get their punches in. Then the game will speak for itself, as it should be.
Facts and history are hard to refute. "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
So, facts and history are hard to refute:
EverQuest - First game requiring a 3d card to play, sold millions of copies and caused the explosion of an entire genre of gaming. Co-Developed by Brad McQuaid.
Vanguard: Saga of Heroes - Developed primarily by company owned by Brad McQuaid, ultimately failed due to a combination of mismanagement and publisher forcing early release.
Everyone conveniently forgets people's successes when they want to demonize someone for something they're unhappy about.
If we followed your logic then Steve Jobs should have been burned at the stake for allowing Apple to almost go out of business after a metric crap ton of terrible mistakes (like banking on powerPC processors instead of intel/amd processors).
The fact is, people make mistakes, and i'm getting really tired of people pissing all over Brad McQuaid because its the popular/cool thing to do.
I dont remember the exact figure but it was somewhere between 100-200k copies of Vanguard were sold, unless you were one of those people you have 0 right to be pissed at him, but like usual we have a bunch of bandwagoners jumping on board the internet hate train. So much so it seems even one of MMORPG.coms contributors just couldn't resist making a "I told you so" article.
Enjoy your max level in 20 hours, on rail quest a thon single player "MMORPG's" people.
The manner in which he screwed people over during the development and release of Vanguard not only speaks for itself, it speaks to his character, that alone is enough for me to be wary of any future projects he may involve himself. The fact that he mishandled and yet again, mismanaged a second project means he deserves all of the ridicule and disappointment and even anger sent in his direction. I don't care how brilliant of a designer he may be, his character and greed have doomed him in the eyes of the MMO customer.
What made Brad relevant is that not only did he really want to make a MMO that mmo vets wanted to play, he had the platform to do it.
Basically, he was a dreamer with resources. Unfortunately, this guy is just a dreamer now. The only resources he has left is any potential "volunteers".
Look Brad and Smedley are cut from the same cloth. It's the piece that rides up the crack of your ass. Both have done some good for gaming but both have really hurt gaming even more. Brad sold out EQ to SOE and then SOE under the supervision of Smelly ruined a good game. Then they come out with EQ2 which ended up being a total joke and a further ruination of the EQ world.
The Brad started Vanguard. Promised to be what EQ2 should have been. People loved the idea. Microsoft was involved and no SOE. Then MS dropped and SOE was back in but Brad promised everyone that SOE is just a publisher and had no say in the game design. Next thing we know all the designers are pulled into the parking lot at work and told they are all fired. Brad was not even there. SOE took over Vanguard and Brad had a job. Smelly and Brad humping each others legs again. The game flops.
I honestly don't know how Brad could have any credibility at this point. I also don't know how Smelly could have a job after the failures he has done. SWG anyone?
Both men have done more to hurt gaming and MMO's as we know them than anyone else in the business.
McQuaid didn't sell out to SOE. Verant was a wholly owned subsidiary of Sony, and was brought back in under the brand in the early 2000's. Brad never owned anything, he started out as a programmer and worked his way up to be one of the creative leads of the game, but never had any real management role it was all on the development side. We got to see his management skills with the Vanguard fiasco.
Originally posted by asmkm22 5 months pay? No, by all accounts it was 3 months.
If it was $45,000 for 5 months or $45,000 for 3 months would it really make that big of a difference?
Both would be huge amounts, no doubt. But the implication that he's setting himself up with a 15k a month paycheck for a company that's struggling with funds anyway, is a bit worse than 9k (which is still a lot).
Originally posted by asmkm22 5 months pay? No, by all accounts it was 3 months.
If it was $45,000 for 5 months or $45,000 for 3 months would it really make that big of a difference?
Both would be huge amounts, no doubt. But the implication that he's setting himself up with a 15k a month paycheck for a company that's struggling with funds anyway, is a bit worse than 9k (which is still a lot).
I don't think you're right. I didn't really know who Brad was. The reason I didn't donate to the Kickstarter was because the whole thing looked like a scam. It was so poorly put together and their way of releasing tiny bits of information at a time made it look like they were just making it up as they went along. Most people don't want to go back every day to read stuff that might want to convince them to pay.. I don't think I'm alone in the fact unless I am immediately grabbed I more or less forget about it after one visit.
That doesn't make it a "scam", though. It only makes it a poorly planned and executed KS - which many have already stated. People just want to keep building this image of Brad as "evil person out to steal people's money so he can feed his opium addiction" - which is not only baseless and libelous (unless someone has first-hand, photo-evidence of Brad buying and/or using them?).
There was a project on KS, called 'Old School RPG', later called 'Shaker'. It was created by Tom Hall (an original co-founder of id Software, creator of Commander Keen, Wolfenstein and Doom, and later Anachronox with Ion Storm), and Brenda Romero (worked on the Wizardry series, Jagged Alliance and the Realms of Arkania series). Its execution was very similar to Pantheon's. Two people with previous history in the genre set up a KS without fully appreciating or preparing for what running a successful campaign would require. They didn't have a lot of information from the start, and were - like Pantheon - adding new bits of info as the days progressed. As a result, they came up even shorter than Pantheon did. Pantheon got over half their KS goal. Shaker didn't even get 1/4 of theirs (1 million). Yet, no one was calling 'Shaker' a 'scam'. It was simply referred to as "a poorly run Kickstarter" - which is exactly what it, and Pantheon, both were. Poorly run Kickstarters. Nothing more.
It also demonstrates a complete lack of honesty when people insist on targeting only McQuaid over the KS failing, while completely ignoring every other person involved, a few of whom were just as visible and involved throughout it as McQuaid - if not moreso. McQuaid was not working in a vacuum, on his own.
Also, it's funny how people conveniently ignore all the other people involved with Pantheon when they want to attack it for failing. The involvement of Salim and the others is seldom even acknowledged, much less held accountable. In that case "It's all McQuaid's fault", "McQuaid failed the KS", "McQuaid this...", "McQuaid that...".
However, when it comes to McQuaid taking money... then all of a sudden.. all those other people exist and matter. Then, all of a sudden, it's "Oh, they were his friends!! And they were working hard, without pay, to try and make this game work! And he took the money!". When it's a matter of using them as a convenient device to rip McQuaid apart a bit more, then suddenly people acknowledge them. How freaking convenient. Could you people be any more blatantly dishonest?
The case of his taking the advance on the funds has already been discussed, and there's more to it than the McQuaid 'Hate Wagoneers' are letting on (not surprisingly) - which makes them even more dishonest than McQuaid. At least he came out and said, to paraphrase, "Yeah, I took the money with the assumption there would be a lot more to follow, and I should have waited until the additional funds were secured". However, the Hatewagoneers won't acknowledge that. They can't, because it takes the wind from their sails. So, they ignore it - in their already disgustingly dishonest manner - so they can continue to spin the truth, invent their own details, and rip him apart.
This entire article, and many of the posts to follow have been nothing but character assassination, wrapped up in a situation that has been misrepresented, exaggerated and so embellished with BS it's difficult to even tell where the truth ends and the lies begin. And again, it amazes and disgusts me that MMORPG is allowing this to continue. A thread like this about any other person, around any other game, would have been shut down and locked a long time ago. People are hurling around accusations and slanderous remarks like rice at a wedding... and MMORPG stands by and lets it happen. Amazing.
This whole ordeal has really shined a light on who the bottom feeders are in these forums. Let me tell ya. It's one thing to take someone to task and criticize them for their actions. What's playing out in this thread, however, goes way beyond that.
It also demonstrates a complete lack of honesty when people insist on targeting only McQuaid over the KS failing, while completely ignoring every other person involved, a few of whom were just as visible and involved throughout it as McQuaid - if not moreso. McQuaid was not working in a vacuum, on his own.
Also, it's funny how people conveniently ignore all the other people involved with Pantheon when they want to attack it for failing. The involvement of Salim and the others is seldom even acknowledged, much less held accountable. In that case "It's all McQuaid's fault", "McQuaid failed the KS", "McQuaid this...", "McQuaid that...".
However, when it comes to McQuaid taking money... then all of a sudden.. all those other people exist and matter. Then, all of a sudden, it's "Oh, they were his friends!! And they were working hard, without pay, to try and make this game work! And he took the money!". When it's a matter of using them as a convenient device to rip McQuaid apart a bit more, then suddenly people acknowledge them. How freaking convenient. Could you people be any more blatantly dishonest?
The case of his taking the advance on the funds has already been discussed, and there's more to it than the McQuaid 'Hate Wagoneers' are letting on (not surprisingly) - which makes them even more dishonest than McQuaid. At least he came out and said, to paraphrase, "Yeah, I took the money with the assumption there would be a lot more to follow, and I should have waited until the additional funds were secured". However, the Hatewagoneers won't acknowledge that. They can't, because it takes the wind from their sails. So, they ignore it - in their already disgustingly dishonest manner - so they can continue to spin the truth, invent their own details, and rip him apart.
This entire article, and many of the posts to follow have been nothing but character assassination, wrapped up in a situation that has been misrepresented, exaggerated and so embellished with BS it's difficult to even tell where the truth ends and the lies begin. And again, it amazes and disgusts me that MMORPG is allowing this to continue. A thread like this about any other person, around any other game, would have been shut down and locked a long time ago. People are hurling around accusations and slanderous remarks like rice at a wedding... and MMORPG stands by and lets it happen. Amazing.
This whole ordeal has really shined a light on who the bottom feeders are in these forums. Let me tell ya. It's one thing to take someone to task and criticize them for their actions. What's playing out in this thread, however, goes way beyond that.
Brad takes responsibility for the failure of the KS because he was in charge. Leadership is responsible for failures. That's how the world works.
This article was in no means a smear campaign or a character assassination. It brought to light for people on this website a pretty underhanded move that was pulled off by Brad. Some of the replies have been less than kind but people are entitled to their opinions. Just as you are entitled to yours. As long as they are not breaking our rules of conduct the posts stay. Just like yours.
It's clear that you support Brad. That's good. Keep supporting him. Maybe he'll make something of this. My guess is probably not.
Also, do you really think at the time Brad took that money anyone thought they would secure additional funding to make this project happen? The KS failed in spectacular fashion and then they were only able to pull in about 150K in funding? I think anyone that believes that, including Brad, is being willfully naive.
You guys are ok with ANYONE taking a paycheck out of crowdfunding capital ?
The money is NEVER pledged for paychecks, the money is pledged for development only.
To my understanding the capital is to be spent on hardware and software ONLY.
Crowdfunding does Not exist so some CEO can give himself a million dollar golden parachute on a failed project. We have enough of this shit in the corporate sector.
What Brad did is THEFT and the guy should be in jail.
p.s. yes I know it was not a million dollars he stole, just making a reference to his corporate counterparts.
Hate to burst your bubble, but when you put money into a crowdsourced project you do not get to dictate where it goes. You are giving money as a DONATION, you are not a customer, you are not an investor you are a doner.
Regardless of the rights or wrongs of what Brad did or did not do, when you put your money into a crowdfunded project that money is gone and the people you give it to can currently spend it on what ever they want.
Thats why there is serious work towards regulating crowdfunding drives. But for now, buyer beware with ANY of these, currently there is NO legal recourse for your money, if a project gets crowd funded, and then the project lead shuts it down, that money is still theirs not yours.
You might not agree with what happened here, but currently (thats the important word) there is no legal precedent to say its wrong. Morally questionable, but legally legit.
Please do not be confused, as a crowd funder the only input you get is what the people behind the crowd funding allow you once your money has been taken.
Basically history has shown that brad Mcquaid is a good game designer but a lousy business man. He should NEVER be given control over the purse strings.
I would even go as far as saying he should not be given a management role beyond perhaps lead designer. With his enthusasm being curtailed by somone with a head for project and resource management.
Basically history has shown that brad Mcquaid is a good game designer but a lousy business man. He should NEVER be given control over the purse strings.
I would even go as far as saying he should not be given a management role beyond perhaps lead designer. With his enthusasm being curtailed by somone with a head for project and resource management.
This i agree with,he is a lousy businessman but a very good designer.There was no EQ fame without Brad,Smedley is not a game coder he is actually nothing but the guy in charge,he is not making great games happen,it is his employees who do that.
As for KS i don't like the idea at all and would not hand over money to anyone attempting to use it,i put out money for FINISHED products.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Basically history has shown that brad Mcquaid is a good game designer but a lousy business man. He should NEVER be given control over the purse strings.
I would even go as far as saying he should not be given a management role beyond perhaps lead designer. With his enthusasm being curtailed by somone with a head for project and resource management.
This i agree with,he is a lousy businessman but a very good designer.There was no EQ fame without Brad,Smedley is not a game coder he is actually nothing but the guy in charge,he is not making great games happen,it is his employees who do that.
As for KS i don't like the idea at all and would not hand over money to anyone attempting to use it,i put out money for FINISHED products.
Why are some of you still calling him a good/great designer, based on stuff he did in EQ 10-15 years ago?
I'm pretty sure most of today's devs are better than he ever was. His fame is because he was one of the first, and there wasn't many to compare with.
Btw, I agree with your last paragraph. I will NEVER put money in ANY KS project. Imo, wasting money on that, early access, and paid alpha/beta testing, is absurd.
I loved Everquest back in the day, but I can't say some of the design choices, such as ten minutes of downtime to recover mana, hell levels, etc, were indicative of a brilliant game designer. Not to mention probably the most unbalanced classes in MMO history.
Hate to burst your bubble, but when you put money into a crowdsourced project you do not get to dictate where it goes. You are giving money as a DONATION, you are not a customer, you are not an investor you are a doner.
Regardless of the rights or wrongs of what Brad did or did not do, when you put your money into a crowdfunded project that money is gone and the people you give it to can currently spend it on what ever they want.
Thats why there is serious work towards regulating crowdfunding drives. But for now, buyer beware with ANY of these, currently there is NO legal recourse for your money, if a project gets crowd funded, and then the project lead shuts it down, that money is still theirs not yours.
You might not agree with what happened here, but currently (thats the important word) there is no legal precedent to say its wrong. Morally questionable, but legally legit.
Please do not be confused, as a crowd funder the only input you get is what the people behind the crowd funding allow you once your money has been taken.
That isn't totally true. Precedent is about to be set. This will probably open the floodgates on the KS's that turn out to be scams. Even if it's trying to get blood out of a stone.
EverQuest - First game requiring a 3d card to play, sold millions of copies and caused the explosion of an entire genre of gaming. Co-Developed by Brad McQuaid.
Vanguard: Saga of Heroes - Developed primarily by company owned by Brad McQuaid, ultimately failed due to a combination of mismanagement and publisher forcing early release.
Everyone conveniently forgets people's successes when they want to demonize someone for something they're unhappy about.
If we followed your logic then Steve Jobs should have been burned at the stake for allowing Apple to almost go out of business after a metric crap ton of terrible mistakes (like banking on powerPC processors instead of intel/amd processors).
The fact is, people make mistakes, and i'm getting really tired of people pissing all over Brad McQuaid because its the popular/cool thing to do.
I dont remember the exact figure but it was somewhere between 100-200k copies of Vanguard were sold, unless you were one of those people you have 0 right to be pissed at him, but like usual we have a bunch of bandwagoners jumping on board the internet hate train. So much so it seems even one of MMORPG.coms contributors just couldn't resist making a "I told you so" article.
Enjoy your max level in 20 hours, on rail quest a thon single player "MMORPG's" people.
You do realize he gave himself at least $45k from the donations? Those donations weren't meant to be used as his own personal piggy bank. How many "mistakes" does someone have to make before you realize what they are really are? Face it, this thing is done like dinner and I'll be surprised if McQuaid ever gets a job in the industry again.
[mod edit]
Yes, i do realize that. Yes, he also stated from the beginning that the money would be used to BACK pay the studio's employees and anything past that would be put towards future development costs.
Was it probably a bad decision? Yes. Did he probably give himself a larger than fair share? Yes.
Does this mean we need to dance on his grave? No.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
Brad takes responsibility for the failure of the KS because he was in charge. Leadership is responsible for failures. That's how the world works.
This article was in no means a smear campaign or a character assassination. It brought to light for people on this website a pretty underhanded move that was pulled off by Brad. Some of the replies have been less than kind but people are entitled to their opinions. Just as you are entitled to yours. As long as they are not breaking our rules of conduct the posts stay. Just like yours.
It's clear that you support Brad. That's good. Keep supporting him. Maybe he'll make something of this. My guess is probably not.
Also, do you really think at the time Brad took that money anyone thought they would secure additional funding to make this project happen? The KS failed in spectacular fashion and then they were only able to pull in about 150K in funding? I think anyone that believes that, including Brad, is being willfully naive.
While I agree with everthing you've said in this post, particularly the part about naivety (which is why i didnt donate to the post kickstarter website), i still just feel like you made your original article because you just couldn't resist the urge to say "I told ya so". I question if the article was even necessary. Usually you guys will do articles that spark discussions that need to be had. In my opinion this discussion didn't need to be had again, and i think the overall tone of the responses on the article indicate exactly why it didn't need to be had.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
Brad takes responsibility for the failure of the KS because he was in charge. Leadership is responsible for failures. That's how the world works.
This article was in no means a smear campaign or a character assassination. It brought to light for people on this website a pretty underhanded move that was pulled off by Brad. Some of the replies have been less than kind but people are entitled to their opinions. Just as you are entitled to yours. As long as they are not breaking our rules of conduct the posts stay. Just like yours.
It's clear that you support Brad. That's good. Keep supporting him. Maybe he'll make something of this. My guess is probably not.
Also, do you really think at the time Brad took that money anyone thought they would secure additional funding to make this project happen? The KS failed in spectacular fashion and then they were only able to pull in about 150K in funding? I think anyone that believes that, including Brad, is being willfully naive.
While I agree with everthing you've said in this post, particularly the part about naivety (which is why i didnt donate to the post kickstarter website), i still just feel like you made your original article because you just couldn't resist the urge to say "I told ya so". I question if the article was even necessary. Usually you guys will do articles that spark discussions that need to be had. In my opinion this discussion didn't need to be had again, and i think the overall tone of the responses on the article indicate exactly why it didn't need to be had.
I definitely do think this discussion needs to be had and as many times as possible so that alot of players who may or may not know alot of mmorpg history don't have to be taken advantage of and be a little more wary crowdfunding.
Brad takes responsibility for the failure of the KS because he was in charge. Leadership is responsible for failures. That's how the world works.
No. Now you're just using lazy and dishonest arguments. You're using Brad's title/position on the project as a convenient way to make him the sole bearer of the blame, while ignoring all other circumstances around the project, many of which were either out of his control, or shared between multiple people. Brad may have been "leading" the project - but the others had to agree to voluntarily go along with it. Even Brad acknowledged, during interviews and such, that it's all their talents, experience and vision making it happen. They were all crediting each other with Pantheon's creation, etc. I know that's inconvenient for you, as it undermines the narrative you're trying to weave... but facts are facts.
They were all responsible for the project. They were all responsible for the information being produced, the artwork, the design elements, the lore... everything. Brad was not producing all that content. Salim, Vu and the others were... either by themselves, or as a group.
All you're doing is cherry-picking details, making convenient omissions, spinning the details, and leading the evidence where you want it to go. It's not honest, it's not clever and it's not flying. Try again.
This article was in no means a smear campaign or a character assassination. It brought to light for people on this website a pretty underhanded move that was pulled off by Brad. Some of the replies have been less than kind but people are entitled to their opinions. Just as you are entitled to yours. As long as they are not breaking our rules of conduct the posts stay. Just like yours.
You're not attacking his character? Then what's the point of including bits like this:
"His successes have not come without bumps in the road; and most, if not all, of us are familiar with the Vanguard snafu. I’ve also heard the rumors of Brad eccentricities but since I can’t confirm them I’m not going to spread those here."
What's the point in even mentioning his "eccentricities" - if you readily admit you can't confirm them yourself? If you can't confirm them, and you didn't want to spread them - then why even bring their alleged existence up in the first place? Why? What purpose does it serve bringing up something you readily admit you won't elaborate on, and can't confirm? I know the answer, because it's illustrated throughout the rest of your article. But I'm curious how you'll spin it.
What you did there is like starting a statement with "No offense, but...". You know whatever follows is going to be offensive... but the person says it anyway.
It's clear that you support Brad. That's good. Keep supporting him. Maybe he'll make something of this. My guess is probably not.
I support the project and the ideals behind it. I also am able to recognize that while Brad is the 'face' of the project, and an easy target, he's not the only person at the wheel. I realize that if the project succeeds or fails, it's not 100% his success, nor 100% his failure. In fact, I believe, with the talent behind it, it could succeed even without Brad's involvement. I agree the KS was run poorly (something they're all responsible for), and I agree Brad taking the money was a dumb thing to do, under the circumstances. But none of that matters.
My "support of Brad" isn't why your article pisses me off.
What pisses me off is how you make all these statements to try and convince people to write off a person, and a project... based entirely on your clearly skewed and one-sided view of the situation, and deliberately planted remarks intended to paint one specific individual as a dishonest, shady person.
This is all besides the fact that so much of what you say in the article is pure conjecture and/or just plain disingenuous.
Example 1: You don't know why SOE didn't take on Pantheon. No one, except the people at SOE, know that for sure. So why even bring it up? I'm gonna go with "for the same reason you brought up Brad's "eccentricities"; something else to add doubt to the fire.
Incidentally, that very topic came up during a livestream, and Brad actually addressed it. His remarks were to the effect that SOE already has a lot going on with Landmark, EQ:Next and what we now know is H1Z1. I believe it was also stated something to the effect that what they're doing with Pantheon isn't really in line with the kind of things SOE is intersted in doing; more focused MMOs targeting smaller, niche markets. However, even that might not be the whole story as, again, only Smedley and the folks at SOE could truly answer why they wouldn't take on Pantheon.
Example 2: You mention how the project was so small and would only attract a niche of people. Well, yeah... Brad, Salim and others were saying that all along. They were focusing on a specific niche of people - not the "everyone" that most MMOs try to attract. That you attempt to use that as a negative against the project, illustrates that you either weren't paying any attention to what they were saying all along, or you're - again - just being willfully dishonest about it.
And, I could keep going. Your "article" is packed with similarly baseless or outright dishonest statements.
The project did have a lot of interest. They had major gaming media covering it. They had interviews and articles up the wazoo. They had official endorsements by other big names in game development. Despite the weak presentation they made for the KS, they managed to get over half their requested funding. The reasons they didn't get more were quite openly and readily provided by people who really wanted to back the project, but had issues with the campaign itself. Two specific issues cited, quite often, were: "There's not enough information", and "Why is Crafting a stretch goal? It should be part of the core game". What killed the KS campaign was what kills many: They jumped into it too soon, and ill-prepared. And once again, Brad has also since acknowledged this.
Again, I can point to just one other project, of many, that has some serious experience behind it, and whose leads had neither the controversy, nor the "alleged eccentricities" anchoring them... Project 'Shaker', started by Brenda Romero and Tom Hall. That project didn't even reach 25% of its required funding - for many of the same reasons Pantheon didn't reach its goal. You can't blame it on "the lead people being shady" here. Yet, Pantheon still did notably better. In both cases, the problem was a poorly prepared and managed KS campaign.
But you'll just ignore that, because it's not expedient to your agenda of turning people away from the project, and defaming Brad. Better to stick to partial information, conjecture, and references to unconfirmed rumors. Right?
Also, playing the "oh, you're just upset 'cause you're a fan of his" card to dismiss my responses isn't going to work here. I'd have a problem with your article regardless of who it was about, because it's a clear arm-chair attack piece on an individual, littered with BS, written from the safety and anonymity of the Internet. It's the kind of material I would expect from a typical forum post here, or on other gaming sites. Not what I'd expect from someone writing articles for publication on a high-profile gaming site.
Also, do you really think at the time Brad took that money anyone thought they would secure additional funding to make this project happen? The KS failed in spectacular fashion and then they were only able to pull in about 150K in funding? I think anyone that believes that, including Brad, is being willfully naive.
People, including KS pledges, weren't confident about re-pledging to a website from the start, and said as much. I wasn't comfortable with it, either. But that has everything to do with the whole setup, and nothing to do with the merits of the project or who was involved. My opinion from the moment it was clear the KS wouldn't succeed was "they should go back to the drawing board, study some successful KSs, get a better, stronger presentation together, with more to show and a better tier structure, and then try it again".
As for whether or not I really think Brad thought they'd secure any additional funding... It's irrelevant, because I don't know. And neither do you. You bringing it up is nothing more than argument from incredulity - a logical fallacy.Just because you can't imagine something being true doesn't make it not true.
What I - or you for that matter - believe is irrelevant.. because neither you, nor I truly know what was going through Brad's head. So, to even bring it up is pointless. What I have to go on is what was said by Salim, and confirmed by Brad. What I have to go on is that Brad would later come out and say "Yeah, it was a dumb move on my part. I should have waited 'til the additional funds were secured". That's all I know of the situation. And it's all that you know of the situation. Attempting to discuss it beyond that is pure conjecture, which you seem quite content to toss around like rice at a wedding. I prefer to avoid it.
It's telling, though. That you would take an unknown and attempt to spin it as an argument in your favor anyway is just another example of everything wrong with your original article. You have an obvious agenda here, which is to smear Brad, and, by extension, the project. You make it more obvious with every response you give - your protests to the contrary notwithstanding.
"When you find yourself in a hole, the best thing to do is stop digging". You should maybe consider that advice, and put the shovel down.
Your article is intended as a smear against an individual, it's in poor taste, and I stand by my opinion that MMORPG should never have posted it.
Comments
I think this entire area of business, the gaming industry, even software in general has this same situation. The consumer isn't protected adequately from these "corporate-entities" and their endless rip-offs. The "free-market' has always been a propaganda-lie, without over-site it's just a rampant devouring cancer.
Look Brad and Smedley are cut from the same cloth. It's the piece that rides up the crack of your ass. Both have done some good for gaming but both have really hurt gaming even more. Brad sold out EQ to SOE and then SOE under the supervision of Smelly ruined a good game. Then they come out with EQ2 which ended up being a total joke and a further ruination of the EQ world.
The Brad started Vanguard. Promised to be what EQ2 should have been. People loved the idea. Microsoft was involved and no SOE. Then MS dropped and SOE was back in but Brad promised everyone that SOE is just a publisher and had no say in the game design. Next thing we know all the designers are pulled into the parking lot at work and told they are all fired. Brad was not even there. SOE took over Vanguard and Brad had a job. Smelly and Brad humping each others legs again. The game flops.
I honestly don't know how Brad could have any credibility at this point. I also don't know how Smelly could have a job after the failures he has done. SWG anyone?
Both men have done more to hurt gaming and MMO's as we know them than anyone else in the business.
You can't be serious.
Taste is a personal thing, there are no facts. And in both my and and many others' personal opinions, Vanguard was simply one of the worst games ever made. And that has nothing to do with the bugs.
As someone else said, no one trusts Brad. That is, at least anyone with more than a couple of brain cells working. Can't prove anything, but I'm 100% sure that is the real reason why this one failed.
I don't think you're right. I didn't really know who Brad was. The reason I didn't donate to the Kickstarter was because the whole thing looked like a scam. It was so poorly put together and their way of releasing tiny bits of information at a time made it look like they were just making it up as they went along. Most people don't want to go back every day to read stuff that might want to convince them to pay.. I don't think I'm alone in the fact unless I am immediately grabbed I more or less forget about it after one visit.
I have no real opinion on the guy, (Vanguard was too buggy for me to put up with but I didn't play enough to have an opinion past that) but my opinion is that he thought just showing up and saying his name would cause the masses to throw money at him whereas before the rumour-mongering started, I'd really question how many people even knew his name. I didn't and I had played both the games he had had a hand in previously.
I suspect that is the reason why the KS failed more then anything. It was horrible.
skipped some
Vanguard launched in Jan 2007 with SOE acting only as publisher
http://www.shacknews.com/article/46750/soe-discussing-future-of-vanguard
it wasn't until May 2007 that SOE aquired Sigil's failed game, Vanguard and the parking lot bit happened
http://www.thegrouchygamer.com/?p=39
EQ2 fan sites
RELAX!@!! BREATHE!!!
Steam: Neph
The manner in which he screwed people over during the development and release of Vanguard not only speaks for itself, it speaks to his character, that alone is enough for me to be wary of any future projects he may involve himself. The fact that he mishandled and yet again, mismanaged a second project means he deserves all of the ridicule and disappointment and even anger sent in his direction. I don't care how brilliant of a designer he may be, his character and greed have doomed him in the eyes of the MMO customer.
What made Brad relevant is that not only did he really want to make a MMO that mmo vets wanted to play, he had the platform to do it.
Basically, he was a dreamer with resources. Unfortunately, this guy is just a dreamer now. The only resources he has left is any potential "volunteers".
McQuaid didn't sell out to SOE. Verant was a wholly owned subsidiary of Sony, and was brought back in under the brand in the early 2000's. Brad never owned anything, he started out as a programmer and worked his way up to be one of the creative leads of the game, but never had any real management role it was all on the development side. We got to see his management skills with the Vanguard fiasco.
Both would be huge amounts, no doubt. But the implication that he's setting himself up with a 15k a month paycheck for a company that's struggling with funds anyway, is a bit worse than 9k (which is still a lot).
You make me like charity
And keep in mind, that's TAKE HOME pay!
RELAX!@!! BREATHE!!!
This sounds awful...
is that Brad guy trying to compete with Curt Schilling or something?
Brad takes responsibility for the failure of the KS because he was in charge. Leadership is responsible for failures. That's how the world works.
This article was in no means a smear campaign or a character assassination. It brought to light for people on this website a pretty underhanded move that was pulled off by Brad. Some of the replies have been less than kind but people are entitled to their opinions. Just as you are entitled to yours. As long as they are not breaking our rules of conduct the posts stay. Just like yours.
It's clear that you support Brad. That's good. Keep supporting him. Maybe he'll make something of this. My guess is probably not.
Also, do you really think at the time Brad took that money anyone thought they would secure additional funding to make this project happen? The KS failed in spectacular fashion and then they were only able to pull in about 150K in funding? I think anyone that believes that, including Brad, is being willfully naive.
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Hate to burst your bubble, but when you put money into a crowdsourced project you do not get to dictate where it goes. You are giving money as a DONATION, you are not a customer, you are not an investor you are a doner.
Regardless of the rights or wrongs of what Brad did or did not do, when you put your money into a crowdfunded project that money is gone and the people you give it to can currently spend it on what ever they want.
Thats why there is serious work towards regulating crowdfunding drives. But for now, buyer beware with ANY of these, currently there is NO legal recourse for your money, if a project gets crowd funded, and then the project lead shuts it down, that money is still theirs not yours.
You might not agree with what happened here, but currently (thats the important word) there is no legal precedent to say its wrong. Morally questionable, but legally legit.
Please do not be confused, as a crowd funder the only input you get is what the people behind the crowd funding allow you once your money has been taken.
Basically history has shown that brad Mcquaid is a good game designer but a lousy business man. He should NEVER be given control over the purse strings.
I would even go as far as saying he should not be given a management role beyond perhaps lead designer. With his enthusasm being curtailed by somone with a head for project and resource management.
This i agree with,he is a lousy businessman but a very good designer.There was no EQ fame without Brad,Smedley is not a game coder he is actually nothing but the guy in charge,he is not making great games happen,it is his employees who do that.
As for KS i don't like the idea at all and would not hand over money to anyone attempting to use it,i put out money for FINISHED products.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Why are some of you still calling him a good/great designer, based on stuff he did in EQ 10-15 years ago?
I'm pretty sure most of today's devs are better than he ever was. His fame is because he was one of the first, and there wasn't many to compare with.
Btw, I agree with your last paragraph. I will NEVER put money in ANY KS project. Imo, wasting money on that, early access, and paid alpha/beta testing, is absurd.
That isn't totally true. Precedent is about to be set. This will probably open the floodgates on the KS's that turn out to be scams. Even if it's trying to get blood out of a stone.
Yes, i do realize that. Yes, he also stated from the beginning that the money would be used to BACK pay the studio's employees and anything past that would be put towards future development costs.
Was it probably a bad decision? Yes. Did he probably give himself a larger than fair share? Yes.
Does this mean we need to dance on his grave? No.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
While I agree with everthing you've said in this post, particularly the part about naivety (which is why i didnt donate to the post kickstarter website), i still just feel like you made your original article because you just couldn't resist the urge to say "I told ya so". I question if the article was even necessary. Usually you guys will do articles that spark discussions that need to be had. In my opinion this discussion didn't need to be had again, and i think the overall tone of the responses on the article indicate exactly why it didn't need to be had.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
I definitely do think this discussion needs to be had and as many times as possible so that alot of players who may or may not know alot of mmorpg history don't have to be taken advantage of and be a little more wary crowdfunding.