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[Interview] WildStar: Making Raids Matter Again

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Comments

  • LeirosLeiros Member UncommonPosts: 281

    This actually got me quite excited about WS! While Blizzard has been turning WoW into easy mode over the past few years, it and many other games have turned away from some of the features that many players like myself use to enjoy. I loved having to get "attuned" to dungeons like Molten Core back in the days of vanilla WoW. It gave a sense of personal accomplishment. Things like world bosses, 20 and 40 man raids, 6 hour long dungeons/raids, warplots, housing, crafting etc. should provide TONS of stuff to do in this game. I was still undecided until I saw the Raid Dev Speak video. Now ... Sold.

     
  • VorthanionVorthanion Member RarePosts: 2,749
    Originally posted by Nhoj1983
    Is it just me or are the majority of commenters missing that the interviewee said that raids aren't the be all end all.  From what I read here he was saying that you could be incredibly hardcore 40 man raider or just a solo player and that they intend to fully support every type of player.  It's pretty obvious that you won't be able to get the best of the best gear but does everyone need it?  I'm not a raider and I was actually encouraged by this interview.

    Why should raiders be allowed to attain gear that lets them trivialize the rest of the game and not allow it for other play styles?  Raid rewards should be for raiding only, otherwise it either unequips automatically once you leave a raid instance or it downgrades its stats once you leave the instance.  Raiders have had premium status in this genre since its inception, perhaps it's time to share the limelight. 

    image
  • BladestromBladestrom Member UncommonPosts: 5,001
    Great idea imo

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • Syphin_BSyphin_B Member UncommonPosts: 340

    And there the casuals go, complaining because they don't get to experience end-game content because they either don't have the time or aren't good enough.

     

    That's the type of mentality that took WoW raiding downhill and gave it LFR which was the worse game system ever implemented. If you want to see the stuff then practice to be a better player but let's be VERY honest with oldschool WoW raiders, it was so much more fun killing Rag,Nef,C'Thun,Kel'thuzad,Illidan and co rather then ANY content after BC. Let's cater to crappy players because they whine and scream for nerfs.

     

    Wild Star won't do it and they know it's only for the small % of the elite and i like it that way, it's so much fun and rewarding clearing CHALLENGING content. Scrubcore casuals ruined the great WoW raiding days and i know Carbine isn't going to let us down.

     
  • Sorien88Sorien88 Member Posts: 15
    Originally posted by Fenrir767
    It's that hardcore mentality that is keeping me away from this game when WoW had only 2% of players seeing the raid content that was a problem. Will Solo loot equal raid loot but only require a time sink? Otherwise Wildstar is back where Blizzard was.

    Lol... So what your saying is you don't want to do any of the teamwork or any of the challenge of learning a raid and completing it you just want the epic lewtz? People like you are ruining MMO's. When Vanilla WoW/BC was around it was amazing to see a player in tons of gear you didn't have because you had something to strive towards even if you knew you would probably never achieve it. That feeling is gone in current MMO's. It's honestly pathetic that people think they should have equal access to gear when they don't want to undergo the challenge to receive that gear. I'm sorry but amount of solo content is equal to the effort it takes to raid.

    I'm not even a hardcore raider anymore and more than likely I won't be in wildstar but damn am I happy they are going the route they are. I hope I see gear that I have no hopes of achieving and I hope they don't give me some almost as good same graphic but less time commitment gear either. Raiding in WoW was at it's best back in Vanilla/BC and even before that in EQ.. Raiding now is so dumbed down it's painful. If a raid can be completed by a group of players who have never met or played together then it's not challenging and that LFR shit needs to die.

  • Tr3izeTr3ize Member Posts: 35
    Originally posted by rwyan

    There is a difference between having quality end-game raiding and having your entire end-game revolve around raiding.

     

    I don't think most reasonable casual players want an easy mode or a "solo" way of acquiring rewards typically reserved for raiding.  In fact, most reasonable casual players enjoy challenges and enjoy having things to work towards. 

     

    However, when an end-game revolves around raiding, that means any form of meaningful progression is left to the typical raid/gear grind treadmill.  That means when I hit level-cap, most of my gaming sessions will revolve around coordinating my efforts with other players to do said raiding so I can continue to progress my character.  The level of coordination required to successfully do said raids take time.  For most reasonable casual players, this time isn't that big of a deal once a week or a few times across a couple weeks.  We consider that acceptable and typically enjoy being involved with a raid.

     

    For players who have a lot of time to burn, they simply don't understand.  In games with very flexible lockouts or no lockouts, I've had guildies run raid style content 4-5x in one day.  I don't want my daily game session to primarily consist of trying to pull together a group of folks to run (sometimes you're lucky, but most of the time you're not).

     

    But give me other avenues of progression (fun, engaging avenues) than I will be happy and I will sub indefinitely.  I'm tired of being told to simply roll an alt or go back to crafting.  I actually want to play the game and continue to invest in the character I've grown attached to.

     

    All that aside, the elder system sounds really spiffy and up my alley.  It sounds like something I could enjoy most of the week and dive into a raid on the weekend if I have the time.  That would be cool.  However, Carbine isn't really talking much about the elder system as it is all these really cool raids they have.

     

    The elder system could very much be what "casual" players want to hear about.  But as of right now, they are only preaching to the "hardcore" crowd ( which as one poster pointed out, is typically the least loyal and most finicky of customers).

     

    Reasonable casual players do not want an easy mode.  They simply just want to be engaged and entertained.

     

    There is some other endgame content which is less hardcore than raids. The housing and warplots being the 2 major ones. I think this game will have something to offer to both the hardcore raid crowd, and the casuals. At least I hope they do, I'm starting to get sick of pre ordering semi-finished, buggy MMO's with no end game only to cancel my sub a few weeks later for said reasons.

  • loulakiloulaki Member UncommonPosts: 944

    this hardcore-skilled pve content never got me interested : ]

    its like WRC you see just one car running, i prefer F1 where they compete all together ...

    image

  • Fenrir767Fenrir767 Member Posts: 595
    Originally posted by jbombard
    Originally posted by Fenrir767
    If that is the root they are taking with no LFR or any way for casuals to see the content they are putting a ton of pressure on their content creating machine to keep the rest of the game amazing. I personally see this as a mistake as they at targeting a small sect of players.

    This is exactly why I think they'll succeed.  

     

    Different content for different people means you don't get the problem WoW has with LFR where the majority of the people running it hate the experience and do it only for the gear.  You see it is the character progression they love, so they put up with LFR but after a while of repetitively doing tasks you don't enjoy burnout sets in.  This is what Blizzard doesn't get and why they keep on losing players.  

     

    They know what they have to do to keep people subbed.   They have different content types for different player types, and yes it is a lot of work to make all that content.  They knew this from the get go and planned their systems and tools from the ground to be able to develop content quickly.   Unlike WoW and many of the other clones, who didn't design their systems and tools that way and have a much harder time churning out content .  They seem to know their shit, and they appear to have planned properly.  

     

    Of course, at the end of the day whether or not they are able to execute what they have planned is a different story, but they appear to have their ducks in a row.

    Why is it so hard for people to accept that all players just want to matter and play a relevant role in the community and the moment you created hardcore gated content where only a small percentage of players see it and everyone who does not play "hardcore" get left behind. This is entertainment and a smart company will figure out a way to not segregate it's player base but keep all players relevant instead of just putting in IMO "EPEEN" content. Kick all of those millions of players out of your MMOs watch quality decrease, graphics etc as you just kicked out probably 70 -80 % of your player base

    MMO's don't have to be a second job but many players here still believe so. It's true that WoW was growing during it's harder content days but that's as the game was reaching it's peak in terms of popularity and exposure it also started it's decline towards the end of it's best expansion as people realized that so few of them would be seeing the content like Naxxarramas.

    The idea that in 2014 creating a game that is more hardcore and then expecting to reap the benefits of a large sub and player base to back up the millions spent doesn't seem feasible IMO. Devs need to stop focusing on what has been done and focus on improving the older experience while also innovating and creating games that everyone can enjoy and be a releavant part of the community that's when your going to see the next great game.

  • Fenrir767Fenrir767 Member Posts: 595
    Originally posted by Tsumoro
    Originally posted by Fenrir767
    It's that hardcore mentality that is keeping me away from this game when WoW had only 2% of players seeing the raid content that was a problem. Will Solo loot equal raid loot but only require a time sink? Otherwise Wildstar is back where Blizzard was.

    I am not sure where this quote of 2% of players seeing the raid content came from, its not just you either. But, its complete shite to be honest. I was in a guild and went into MC the day it came about. Same with BWL, ZG and AQ20-40. I actually took a break at Naxx back then due to work and irl schedules conflicting for a while. 

    I would say the majority of players got to see raid content, I wouldn't say all of them completed it mind you. I know Twins in AQ40 broke some guilds.

    The point of all this is that these large scale player operations is actually putting the MMO back out there for that I am glad! The whole point of playing an MMO was that you would play and interact with many people. Although people just want to play content as a solo adventure. What's the point, just play an RPG. 

    Now, I am not one for telling people how to play, but the point of it being an online game is that you interact with people, and I mean people other than the three friends that join you on your adventures. When did people get so anti-social that the idea of working and overcoming a challenge as a team seemed so daunting a task!

     

    The 2% Quote came from conversations with Blizzard during Vanilla WoW and was posted on multiple games sites and all over the forums. Forgive me if I can't find the quote it was 10 years ago. That's where it came from

  • Fenrir767Fenrir767 Member Posts: 595
    Originally posted by Sorien88
    Originally posted by Fenrir767
    It's that hardcore mentality that is keeping me away from this game when WoW had only 2% of players seeing the raid content that was a problem. Will Solo loot equal raid loot but only require a time sink? Otherwise Wildstar is back where Blizzard was.

    Lol... So what your saying is you don't want to do any of the teamwork or any of the challenge of learning a raid and completing it you just want the epic lewtz? People like you are ruining MMO's. When Vanilla WoW/BC was around it was amazing to see a player in tons of gear you didn't have because you had something to strive towards even if you knew you would probably never achieve it. That feeling is gone in current MMO's. It's honestly pathetic that people think they should have equal access to gear when they don't want to undergo the challenge to receive that gear. I'm sorry but amount of solo content is equal to the effort it takes to raid.

    I'm not even a hardcore raider anymore and more than likely I won't be in wildstar but damn am I happy they are going the route they are. I hope I see gear that I have no hopes of achieving and I hope they don't give me some almost as good same graphic but less time commitment gear either. Raiding in WoW was at it's best back in Vanilla/BC and even before that in EQ.. Raiding now is so dumbed down it's painful. If a raid can be completed by a group of players who have never met or played together then it's not challenging and that LFR shit needs to die.

     

    Why because it keeps players that don't make MMOs their lives at the top tier of a game because they can't succeed in real life sorry I like to play games for fun and want to be a relevant part of the community just because t1 and t2 gear you thought was amazing and people deserved it I call bullshit on that. Players in that kind of gear could walk around and just blow away the rest of the game even go into PvP and make winning at that impossible.  The raid was the best way to go mindset broke the game. It's not even about getting great gear solo it could even be about challenging small group content for great gear as well. There are so many ways to implement stuff why does everyone assume that the argument for raids being the end all be all means free Epicz it just means wanting options and not relying on 39 other people for my fun....

    How about doing what one person said earlier in the thread have 3 different gears sets, Raid gear only usable in raids, PvP gear for PvP and then regular gear for everything else. Keeping all aspects of the game seperate. I don't think that would fly with most hardcore players because they got the best gear and they need it all the time.

    Why is people asking for a way to have good loot or progress through the game at their own pace because they have real live commitments and jobs so threatening to everyone else. Is it because we say this game is not our life? I don't need the best gear I don't even care if it takes 10 times as long all I am asking is about having relevant progression and the only reason I even suggest an LFR is it would be nice to be able to try and play the content without spending hours prepping and hours raiding. I don't understand why multiple difficulty levels is so threatening if you want to do the harder stuff for the beast gear fine but why is that person that is just doing it for fun the worst thing in the world for you. You don't even need to interact with him. I am guessing it's because your EPEEN isn't so much bigger than his anymore

     
  • alyndalealyndale Member UncommonPosts: 936

    Sooooo....

    Raiding is like WoW...Ha!...They need to hire the spirit of Dick Clark...no..channel the spirit of Dick Clark. You know, disco with the Bosses? hardcore

    Maybe we need to practice by watching "Dancing with the Stars" Yeah that'll get us up pumped since we ALL drink adrenalin for breakfast...nothing like dancing with those really nasty 20 to 40 man bosses....    hardcore

    Truly to be different Carbine could voice over guy or a gal that does the square dance calling..man now that would truly be awesome dudez...hardcore

    <sighs> ok ok I'm gunna take my hardcore self and go step on some cockroaches sorta fine tune my hardcore gaming reflexes ..yo

    <shakes head>

    Alyn

     

    All I want is the truth
    Just gimme some truth
    John Lennon

  • HeraseHerase Member RarePosts: 993
    Originally posted by Nhoj1983
    Is it just me or are the majority of commenters missing that the interviewee said that raids aren't the be all end all.  From what I read here he was saying that you could be incredibly hardcore 40 man raider or just a solo player and that they intend to fully support every type of player.  It's pretty obvious that you won't be able to get the best of the best gear but does everyone need it?  I'm not a raider and I was actually encouraged by this interview.

    Pretty much, would understand if 40 man raiding was the only content, but there is so much to do even if you're not a raider adn the Devs even said they're thinking about everyone.

    Don't like 40 mans? Do 20. Don't like that? do vet dungeons. Don't like PvE? Do Warplots, To much? Do arean/bg. Don't like PvP? Housing, Crafting, Paths ( i think) and probably other stuff i haven't mentioned. 

    It's not like there is a lack of options at all here in the elder game, the only strong stance they are taking is, they will not be changing  the difficult of raids, but how does this stop anyone from raiding? I never understood this rule that you have to raid 6 hours everyday. Why can't you raid 2 hours, 3 times a week or 6 hours once a week? you won't progress as fast, but you still get to exp it and have ago.

  • TekaelonTekaelon Member UncommonPosts: 604

    A causal player who casually raids. I am hoping to find a guild that is willing to let me keep my casual style of play. 

     

    IMO to keep WildStar a true MMO don't add dungeon and RAID finder tools. I know they are convenient but they keep people from talking to each other. WoW and other games thrived without them. Player effort yields a stronger community. Spoon feeding is not the answer to making a good game!

  • holyneoholyneo Member UncommonPosts: 154

    I am willing to work hard to stand out from everyone.  Thats why I love WS raid mentality.  If your not willing to raid hardcore, you shouldn't have the gear that others are willing to work hard for.  The way people are talking about nerf's and etc, are people not willing to work hard for it.  They believe they are entitled to the gear for just playing the game, well too bad.

    When I raided in WoW, my guild cleared everything even Naxx, before Naxx was renewed later on in Wolk.  I still have the level 60 gear on my toon to prove it.  I loved walking into main city like Org. and everyone knew who I was.  They knew I was a hardcore raider, and I stood out.  We were able to profit in the community, by allowing other guilds (leaders,tanks,etc) to come along for training and gearing out there Main tanks to help there guild.  This strengthen the community on our server.  The problem started when the nerfs rolled out and eventually expansions. 

      When expansions started to roll out, it took the hard work and threw it out the window.  Therefore ripping the community as whole as well.  It just made it not even worth trying to keep up time after time. Therefore making the game less challenging and more of a empty vanity game.  You didn't enjoy the game because its challenging and build strong friendship with like minded people.

      If GM built everyone a Corvette and charged the price of a Kia, would the Corvette have it same value as it does when you see one now rolling down the street?  No, therefore it would take away a goal to work hard for something great.  Instead you get a community of people standing around bitching and moaning because they have nothing to work hard for.  Some people have the mentality of the world owes them for just being present.

    But I'm hear to say the world don't owe you a dam thing. 

     
  • Fenrir767Fenrir767 Member Posts: 595
    You can't compare real world ideas to games. You can't home raid gear in your hand, you can't sell raid gear and it can all be taken away if a company shuts down a game. So many people believe caudal won't work for anything the truth is casual want their own method to progress that will make them equal and not trivial next to raiders.
  • feztoniofeztonio Member UncommonPosts: 60
    Does anyone remember how nearly impossible it is to organize a 40 man raid ?? The gear checking and having your potions and pots ready and then everyone getting to the raid zone-in, fighting there if in a contested zone either thru other faction or the mobs in the area, then zoning in and getting set up, trying to explain the strat to 40 people and then actually execute the strat? Then the 3 or 4 people who would rage quit and drop group that it took too long so you had to have someone zone out back to city to refill group. Then finally you start hours later only for first wipe for 9 rage quitters and the raid to fall apart? Everyone creams themselves about how awesome vanilla wow was but I think it's rose colored glasses here. Vanilla wow was kinda annoying ...
  • NitthNitth Member UncommonPosts: 3,904

    People already know why soloers/casuals want raid gear...Stat inflation.

    A casual player that does 5 mans can: Tank better, Dps better, and heal better with raid gear because the stats required are the same.

    Like wise, a casual that only does daily quests could pick up all those "12 rats" and aoe them down in seconds.

    The heart of the issue is raids have a limitless power potential from their loot while content "below" is hardcaped. So until someone solves this the argument goes on and on.

    image
    TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  • IncomparableIncomparable Member UncommonPosts: 1,138
    Originally posted by Derros
    Originally posted by Fenrir767
    It's that hardcore mentality that is keeping me away from this game when WoW had only 2% of players seeing the raid content that was a problem. Will Solo loot equal raid loot but only require a time sink? Otherwise Wildstar is back where Blizzard was.

    From my understanding solo gear will not be equivalent to raid gear.  

     

    I used to feel it should, but i gradually realized i didnt need raid gear.  

     

    also PvP will have seperate gear

    Thats why there should be content for solo players equivalent to raids.

    Downside to raids;

    1. Takes too long to form group

    2. Putting up with different skills lvls and wipes making raid take hours

    3. Cant stop when ever to later continue especially with a 40 man raid

    So solo end game content should be part of a game that has a majority of the content that is solo. Grouping is fun, but variety should be an option.

    “Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble”

  • reeereeereeereee Member UncommonPosts: 1,636
    Originally posted by Incomparable
    Originally posted by Derros
    Originally posted by Fenrir767
    It's that hardcore mentality that is keeping me away from this game when WoW had only 2% of players seeing the raid content that was a problem. Will Solo loot equal raid loot but only require a time sink? Otherwise Wildstar is back where Blizzard was.

    From my understanding solo gear will not be equivalent to raid gear.  

     

    I used to feel it should, but i gradually realized i didnt need raid gear.  

     

    also PvP will have seperate gear

    Thats why there should be content for solo players equivalent to raids.

    Downside to raids;

    1. Takes too long to form group

    2. Putting up with different skills lvls and wipes making raid take hours

    3. Cant stop when ever to later continue especially with a 40 man raid

    So solo end game content should be part of a game that has a majority of the content that is solo. Grouping is fun, but variety should be an option.

    People who want to play a game that revolves around solo content already have ESO.

  • wilqwilq Member UncommonPosts: 144
    If you are solo player what for you want to play mmo. I started to hate wow when they implemented lfg and later lfr tools, it killed the game in my opinion, not to mention dumbing down difficulty in raids with each new expanion. I loved attuned quests for old wow raids, loved quest for warlock mount. They were perhaps annoing but finished gave some sort of achived feel. And im happy that at least one mmo hawe chance to bring that feel back, there are many mmos that catter other ppl.
  • VonatarVonatar Member UncommonPosts: 723

    I always chuckle when people casually toss around the word "attunement" in relation to unlocking raid zones.

     

    I think it was Molten Core in WoW that gave birth to the term in this context (having to attune to the core in order to pass through the rift to Ragnaros's realm), but it really seems out of place when referring in a general sense to gaining access to a raid zone.

  • TorreyHTorreyH Member UncommonPosts: 43
    Originally posted by jbombard

     Different content for different people means you don't get the problem WoW has with LFR where the majority of the people running it hate the experience and do it only for the gear.  You see it is the character progression they love, so they put up with LFR but after a while of repetitively doing tasks you don't enjoy burnout sets in.  This is what Blizzard doesn't get and why they keep on losing players.  

     ^^^ This.  I think the WildStar devs get it.  That every single player is the central figure in an RPG, and they need some fun and meaningful way to progress their character.  To continue the story, and be the hero that destiny compels.  If they deliver that, I'm OK with the guys wearing orange.  :-) 

     

  • deniterdeniter Member RarePosts: 1,435

    I think they meant only 2% of WoW players got to see Naxxramas (the last raid instance before next expansion) in vanilla..

    I don't see this as a problem. It only indicates 98% of Wow players didn't run out of content at that time.

    You really can't say the same today.

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    Originally posted by Fenrir767
    It's that hardcore mentality that is keeping me away from this game when WoW had only 2% of players seeing the raid content that was a problem. Will Solo loot equal raid loot but only require a time sink? Otherwise Wildstar is back where Blizzard was.

    I think it is quite obvious by now that former Blizzard employees are trying to do just like everyone else,incorporate Wow ideas into their game.

    Raiding has no correlation with the term role playing but a few games developed that trend to be a staple in mmorpg's,personally i don't like it.

    Imo any content that involves more people than a normal 5-6 man group should be in the open,global content that brings everyone together for a common goal.Example in FFXI "Besieged" great fun or Campaign battles when that content was first released or even ideas like Rifts.Heading into instances is just such a lazy weak way of creating content.You know the ONLY reason players are doing that "instance" content is because they figure the reward is there otherwise the actual content idea is very weak.

     

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • daltaniousdaltanious Member UncommonPosts: 2,381

    Could not care less for raiding in any game. Too time consuming. If somebody have job, family, is seriously in study, ... can't raid I guess. But in Wow have always enjoyed 5man's as endgame and hope in Wildstar something comparable is planned.

     

    As for game ... purchased on friday and played so far maybe 10 - 15 hours. And like a lot game. Only thing that bothers me a lot and could cause leaving after some time ... is that toolbar limit for active abilities. Always hated to play on PC button mashing games. And being doomed to i,.e. 5, 7, 9, ... abilities spells button mashing. If somebody want can play any game with single spell. But I WANT to have option to fill half screen with buttons if I desire. I think this could be costly mistake and cause losing many players as for TSW and some other.

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