PVP ruined the sandbox.ts

sacredcow4

Pretty strong statement. Let me back it up a bit.

What is a sandbox game? Does full loot make a game sandbox? Does open pvp make a game sandbox? Seriously, ask yourself what exactly makes a game a sandbox game.

What makes a game not a sandbox game? Levels? No looting players? No pvp?

I would argue that a sandbox game is a game that promotes, encourages, and provides all the tools needed to create as much emergent gameplay between players as possible. It is a game with as few rules as possible and as much player choice as possible. 

As a kid... do you need to play in the sandbox for 6 hours before you get your first shovel? Do you need a shovel to dig a hole? Or can you use your hands, find a cup, or use a stick? Do you need to be 10 years old before you get a bucket to put sand in to make castles with? There are no artificial limitations besides what you can find and utilize. The same should be true of a sandbox game. The devs should provide as many ways to dig a hole as possible, give us as many different types of tools to shape the sand as possible, and as many types of sand as possible.

Here's a good way to judge if a game is a sandbox game or just a pvp grind fest. If you remove pvp... could you still find tons of stuff to do? Do you still have a fully functional game without pvp?

I think too many devs are sticking ffa pvp and full loot on poorly developed or themepark games and attempting to call them a sandbox. PVP should happen naturally in the moment. It should not be the core of the game. PVP is the cat shitting in your sand. The bigger kid stomping on your castle. The parents raking and cleaning the sand.

PVP should enhance the world. The world should not be tailored to pvp. If you took out the cats, the bullies, and the parents cleaning your sandbox you still have a sandbox. You still have a world you can shape and live in. If you take out the sand and put bullies, cats, and parents in an empty box, you have a modern "sand"box mmo.

 

 

ps. I love PVP. I just haven't seen it done well since UO.

Valhama

I generally agree with your assessment. In a nutshell, a good MMORPG sandbox game needs to be appealing on its own before even factoring in combat at all. Even including PvE. That said, I think PvP and full loot add a lot of spice to a good sandbox game. You're involved in the world because there's so much to do and explore, but at the same time alert because the world is dangerous. My god do I want another UO today. 

Ergload

Devs could try sharding their sandbox MMOs into open PK / limited PK servers. I would have liked a limited PvP option in Mortal Online.

Lissyl

Originally posted by Ergload
Devs could try sharding their sandbox MMOs into open PK / limited PK servers. I would have liked a limited PvP option in Mortal Online.

Along this vein, I think one possible avenue to look at would be layered shards/channels, one for PVE only and one for PVP.  This prevent flagging through exploits, but allows you the option of engaging in pvp as you want to while simultaneously making sure that anyone who is set for PVP -only- sees other PVP-ready players.  Put a timed delay on it to prevent running from battles and perhaps a very short immunity zoning into the new channel (and no attack possible, to prevent 40-person raids popping into someone's headquarters and slaughtering them by surprise, for instance) and you've got the basis of a workable system.

Gdemami

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Originally posted by sacredcow4

It is a game with as few rules as possible and as much player choice as possible. 

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Mutually exclusive. Less rules -> less choices, less freedom.

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Originally posted by sacredcow4

I think too many devs are sticking ffa pvp and full loot on poorly developed or themepark games and attempting to call them a sandbox.

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If I had to blame someone, it would be the players themselves strapping the lable upon w/e flies their boat.

Quesa

PvP isn't a sandbox element, in any form...whether you opt to develop around it or outlaw it entirely.  WOAH WOAH, what do you mean it's "not an element"?  What I mean is PvP, while being an available activity in a game, doesn't make the game a sandbox, you can have a sandbox game that is completely devoid of PvP or any player interation at all.  Sandbox is a general and gray term which essentially means giving a high degree of freedom to the player.  This usually means less linear progression/skill training.  Worlds shouldn't be linear either, which generally means you aren't on rails (SWG Space combat) and you shouldn't be punished for going off the "questing-track" in trade for doing some questing or other in-game activities.  

When you look at games like Eve Online or Archeage, you have a lot of freedom in your activities, there isn't one way to gain progression.  Eve Online allows you to skill for any type of combat regardless of race or bloodline and time is the only bottleneck.  Archeage, while giving you the standard questing hubs, allows you to level from 1-50 in different ways such as trade, farming or grinding.

The main theme, if you will, of a sandbox is freedom yet that doesn't mean the freedom to do anything to anyone at any time.  Games need rules and boundaries for immersion and you'll find that as you reduce the boundaries you also reduce the immersion, which doesn't mean there aren't games out there that can be successful with this style of play, look at Minecraft, it's pretty damn free in what you can do.