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A true sandbox FFA PVP MMORPG can only survive if the "carebears" stays.
Torgrim
Member CommonPosts: 2,088
Over the years some people have asked for a true sandbox game with FFA PVP in a fantasy setting, these PVPers want to gank how they please they want to wreck havoc without any form punishment, and the same people ask why these games cant grow and flurish.
Well I hate to say it, you need the PVE crowd to get this rocket of the ground, if the game is mostly PVP based well then you get same kind of people you are, and the game turns into a somewhat hardcore niche PVP battleground MMO with low population.
This chewed old mantra that these game developers of these games says " the gameworld is open for you, do what you like, build, craft, explore,war," yadda yadda yadda, always turns out to be a big fat gankfest.
A good and solid PVE system with PVP rules pretty much like IRL makes the PVEer stay, look at EVE true It's still niche but IMO It's beacuse It's set in space wich alot of people dont like but CCP made a good balance.
A good and sound PVE foundation with plenty of things to do as a PVEr will make a good and fun FFA PVP game, Ultima Online started it but sadly along the way, something happend and the game developers forgot the foundation of a good balanced game.
PVE crowd are the key for this not the problem.
Just my 2 cents on the matter, just needed to get this down 
If it's not broken, you are not innovating.
Comments
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
EVE online is a true FFA Sandbox game that has been sustainable for many years... it does NOT have a "PVE base" and it's the main example as to why your premise is wrong. I'm sick of PVEer acting like the sacred overlords of MMOs. You guys just don't GET open world PVP and you should stop trying to shape every MMO out there to YOUR needs. There's plenty of carebear games.
I've been playing EVE on and off since may 2003 and you saying the bulck of EVE population are PVPer?
If it's not broken, you are not innovating.
Eve has no PvE players ? I didn't know you could play for almost a decade never pvping and still consider yourself a pvp'er.
Eve did something no other ffa game did. They made the risk out weigh the reward for ganking in large areas of the game. That let the pve players have an area to play in without constantly being killed by idiots so they stayed in the game. So pretty much what the op said is true.
I would have to agree with this. The bottom feeders are usually found in these type of games and one of the reasons I try to avoid them.
Agreed, the PvE elements are what keep people around and EVE Online is the best example, plenty ways to live and survive without even engaging in pvp....though I personally don't like EVE myself cause of the being a ship thing and all.
The PvP always needs to be co-existent and anytime that line is crossed that player is considered an outlaw, just like how you don't cross certain sectors in EVE space. It's nice when PvP and PvE can both exist this way but the core is always PvE, otherwise like you said it turns into an arena game and content players will leave.
Developers just have to hit that magical balance. Darkfall comes close but the penalties are too harsh. I swear if I could have my own protected house and pvp wasn't EVERYWHERE in that game I would play it, course their PvE content is quite lacking in general.
We must talking about 2 different EVE Onlines, because the one that I play (50 mil SP atm) has, year after year, had the majority of players cowering in high sec away from the fighting, with all of us desperately trying to convince said carebears to come out to null sec to play.
Part of the problem is that FFA pvp games take it too far, or have no purpose at all. There's rarely an in between.
One of the most balanced systems that I saw was that, when you died, your inventory dropped. Not your gear, or what you are wearing- just your inventory; whatever you picked up since the last time you banked. This kept you constantly on your toes.
For me, I have a harder time getting attached to a character with systems like Darkfall, where death means losing EVERYTHING. Having to live by the Ultima Online motto "Carry only what you can afford to lose" is, to me, more enjoyable when that pertains only to my inventory. When it takes my armor into account too, I find that it not only makes my own gameplay tough, but puts smaller guilds at a distinct disadvantage against larger ones. The bigger one is, the more they can afford to outfit their people with the best armor, that's ok to be thrown away. Little guilds? Toss on some rags, chums, cause we can't afford for you to lose the nice stuff!
Secondly, a "track" system- something to tell you that an enemy is within range. This gives players (who are paying attention to their track) a chance to do something about it, whether that means preparing for the death that is coming, running like hell or call for backup.
Combined, these made PvE a far more acceptable thing. They weren't just sheep waiting for us PvPers to nom nom nom on them- they had a utility to give them as much of an edge as we had, turning the hunted into the hunter (and making my PvP experience far more enjoyable than just killing a sitting target or a scared, flustered farmer) and made it so that their deaths (or mine) were lucrative to the victor, but not so devastating that it lead to excessive rage quits.
In my experience, I have found it to be something completely different.
What I've seen is that the problem is usually
A) In games, that try to reward players in PvP zones, in order to add incentives for going out there and thus help bolster the PvP population, PvE players feel coerced into going into those FFA zones and get upset. ESPECIALLY if there is a loss system when you die.
It is, unfortunately, a difficult thing to balance.
The day where a developer makes a game that a PvE player loves to log into as well as a PvP player, your mmorpg will be making billions, however we all are still waiting for this game to arrive.
I've never really gotten why so many hard-core PvPers hold and express such utter contempt towards anyone who does not want to PvP. And conversely, I've never really gotten why so many die-hard anti-PvPers hold and express such utter hatred towards those who do. Not every PvEer is a "carebear" who wants "every game to be a PvE themepark," and not every PvPer is a "vile douchebag" who just wants to "gank everyone in sight."
I constantly see PvPers complaining that no games are made for them, and I've seen countless angry threads and comments along the lines of "you carebears have so many games of your own, why do you want to take [insert game in development here] away from us?!?!" The truth is that the PvEers are doing nothing of the kind. PvE just happens to be where the money is in MOGs. And as another poster pointed out, a game with nothing but sandbox FFA PvP does stand a very large probability of becoming nothing but a non-stop gankfest.
I think the problem here, the reason so many people simply will not step foot out into those PvP zones, is not the fault of PvPers in general. It's the fault of the subset of PvPers that are only interested in the unfair fight. You know the ones, they're the ones on their max level toon hunting down the newbs because they think it's hilarious. They're the ones who want open-world, unrestricted PvP not because it offers a challenge, but because it gives them access to opponents so far under their threat level that it's pure griefing. There is a subset of the PvP crowd that doesn't seem to enjoy playing a game, they only seem to enjoy ruining a game for other people. It's this group that is driving potential combatants out of the PvP zones.
I played on the PvP server back in old DAOC. "Mordred." I didn't play on it for long. Not because I objected to the PvP, but because it was frankly impossible to even set foot out of the capital cities without being almost instantly ganked by someone just waiting there for that specific purpose. And these were not low-level toons, but geared-up, max level toons, mostly stealthers, who would simply one-shot anyone who came out with zero chance of avoiding it. That isn't a challenge and it isn't, at least in my opinion, remotely fun. The only thing it really accomplished was to de-populate the server faster than a concert where a classic band announces "here's something off the new album!"
Now, I hear people say, but FFA open world PvP is realistic! In the real world they don't have PvP blocks! Well, yeah, that's true. But I don't play games for realism of that kind. I play games to have fun, and getting smeared because you never had the slightest chance is not fun. I teach inner-city middle school, and the boys on the basketball team have this weird little mentality. They only like to play when they are crushing their opponents. Give them an actual challenge and they get pissed off and quit. The inevitable loss is always blamed on "cheating officials." There is a subset of PvPers that have the same attitude. They don't want to win, they want to demolish you in the most humiliating fashion possible, against opponents that never had the slightest chance. It's sad in 12 year old boys, and it's sad in gamers, too.
Now, when I PvP, I go for the games that essentially start everyone on a fairly equal setting. That usually means FPSers or games like Team Fortress, Starcraft, and the like. When in MOGs, I really only PvP in games that have ranking systems or grouped battlegrounds that match you up with opponents that are in your threat level. If I go into a bg and you wipe the floor with me because you play your toon better than I do, or because you have figured out an awesome combination, I have nothing but respect for you. But when you just kill me because I am a gnat compared to your leveled-up, geared-up, buffed-up, grouped-up power? Nah. Because when I PvP, I like to at least have a CHANCE of being victorious. Simply getting your tuchas handed to you by someone with more hit points in their little finger than you have in your entire body is just not fun.
TL;DR version: It's not the PvPers that are a problem in getting PvP games to be successful, it's the griefers. Most PvPers aren't griefers, but those who are drive away potential players.
There is a significant PvE base. I don't know what you're on about...
I don't think so.
A MMO can work just fine with PvP only, just like FPS games are working fine with PvP only.
The problem is that most sandbox FFA PvP games have PvE content instead of just focusing on the PvP. The mechanics they use are not good enough to attract enough players, most of them either have levels or a another type of huge gap in power between new and old player that means PvP often will be rather onesided.
A true sandbox don't need mobs at all, the dungeons should be made and run by players. The game also needs to be way less gear focused than most MMOs.
Look on the types of games that actually get millions of players in PvP: like FPS games and RTS games. Combat there is way fairer and you win by skill instead of superior gear, level or ingame skills.
As for crafting and such should that be focused on other stuff than player gear, a guild that own a dungeon would craft traps and other stuff for their dungeons while a knight guild would build a castle, breed horses and similar. Food and drinks are still fine as long as the buffs you get from it ain't over powered.
Yes, I am saying that sandbox MMOs should be more like FPS game mechanics wise. They don't really need to be for combat mechanics though, there are plenty of options there but FPS games actually know how to make PvP really exiting and have it way easier to bring in new players. In MMOs you need to play for months before you actually can stand on your own feets and that turns off way too many players.
And I actually believe that there are other things that can motivate players besides increasing their characters stats and get the best gear in the game. You could still allow plenty of new customization possibilities to vets like Guildwars (1) do even if players would spend more work on creating cool stuff together with their guild than for themselves.
That is my theory at least.
Yes, it can be done of course but it is way harder than making a game focused on one of the 2 things. For good PvP you need mechanics that makes combat fun even if you are fighting someone that played longer than you but most PvEers want a game that is either focused on constantly getting better gear or character upgrades.
No current game mechanics can do that satisfactory, the closest is possibly the leveling down to the current area that GW2 have but that is still somewhat weak for an open game.
Splitting up PvP and PvE to different areas never really worked well so I would instead focus on making an awesome game focused on one of the 2 playstyles, that is far easier.
no, no and no.
carebears shall play their carebear games.
People who don't throw a tantrum because they die IN A VIDEOGAME shall play sandbox MMOs.
You know that sounds a little like a protection racket.
I been an MMO player since 1998. I started with UO before Fel and Tram came into being. I been on both sides of the fence with Hardcore PVP full Loot systems and Carebear PVE because I do not want to engage in PVP. I can see from the Hardcore players perspective because they can go around and attack whoever they want when they want and have high gains, they themselves as a PKer also risk a lot if they get killed. Also if they become known and people know their crafter that crafter will get killed and loot taken.
The problem that I see with PVP in a sandbox MMO is that over time the majority of your players which are going to be yes your Non PVP player; will leave the game. The game will then die out fairly fast because has a PVP player there will be fewer and fewer people to kill and no new players coming in. Why simple people do not want to play a system where they are being farmed for someone else’s enjoyment. As much as I know these PVPs want to prove how good they are they are their own worst enemies. Most PVPers hate being on the loosen side so they work so hard to be so good, in certain MMOs they fully change factions to be on the winning side because they hate loosen. Don’t believe me? Why in WoW are some PVP servers like 90% 1 faction and no PVP going on? Why do people switch from the loosen faction in Battle Grounds to the winning faction? Because they do not want to lose. When I played SWG on Wander home back in 2003 I had a lot of friends that were Rebels and the more they lost the more they switched to the Imperial side because they wanted to win. Then when they came and raided with 30 people into Moenia on Naboo. Well guess what the 5 of us Rebels were sitting there unflagged and No we were not stupid enough to start a fight. Why? Because 5 vs 30 is no contest, however 20 of those 30 people use to be Rebels and wanted to take part in Winning PVP. Well there was no PVP happening because the faction imbalance. They talked all big and tough now that they were on the Imperial side but as soon as they were loosening on the Rebel side they would run.
SWG had it right with having full PVP servers were players could be flagged or covert so they could choose when to PVP. Because unless you force faction balance on servers like WOW did on its PVP servers during the first few months of classic, you will have massive imbalance and PVP dies. Then PVP gets forced into BGs, Arenas and all kinds of instanced setup.
PVPers can stand up and say how big and bad they are however when it comes down to it; it’s a virtual world that means DICK in the scope of life. Call that Carebear all you want. I don’t care. The problem is this group never comes up with good ideas on how to balance PVP, with other aspects of the game. They want only PVP to matter. Well if want nothing but PVP in an mmo? Ok go play MO because that’s a game were PVP is all that matters. Guess what you might have a few thousand people who don’t PVP each other anymore because they only want to kill the weak new player, not the skilled PVP player. If you really want some true PVP and have it wrapped up around some real risk and some real reward cool. You will need to give up the idea that your MMO should only matter when it comes to PVP and here is how you do it.
All servers should have a restriction on faction Balance. If Faction A has more than 55% or so players in the overall population you disable any new character creation in that faction until more new players from new accounts bring that balance back to 50%. Yes it will suck. However if you have a closer to 50/50 faction balance the chances of having open world PVP in a game look like 200 Faction A vs 15 Faction B. After some time faction B players will just leave and PVP will rarely happen. Sorry PVP players yes you should be forced to help balance out the faction system. Not having a overwhelming majority on 1 faction.
In up and coming games like ArcheAge where you have Pirates on the open seas the same type of restriction on how many pirates are allowed vs Protective Mercenaries needs to be in play to allow balance. Makes it easier on Crafters who want to move goods to market because hiring Mercs will be a common thing and Mercs will never be out numbered 100 to 1 by pirates because most PVPers will want be Pirates. I know because when I use to be a PVPer that’s what I would want to do go after crafters for their mats which would sell for a ton. Problem is often times I was in an overpowering group. The crafter would have 1 or 2 guards. If I came in with 10 people it’s no contest. Again making PVP pointless because there is no risk for me being the Jack Ass
PVPers also need to accept that 100 VS 100 players is nothing but a zerg fest at best. Yea I been in a few battles that sizes in SWG and they always ended up nothing but a mass graveyard. There is very little skill involved in massive fights like this. However 15 to 30 players some skill can be applied. For example we have a few 15 to 20 vs same size group in SWG. Imps would come into Moenia right, this is the first few months of SWG when factions were better balanced. The Imps would stay near the cantina so we had my Commando team go into the cantina and wait for another group to come from the starport area. At the command of go my team would run out and fire off rocket launchers at the AT-STs and kill them fast and then use heavy weapons on the Creature Handler’s Creatures. The team coming from the starport would run in with Teras Kasi to take down any melee and the rest of the group would open fire on anyone else. That was enjoyable PVP, we lost more than we won due to skill however it was enjoyable and meaningful PVP. Why is that? Because it had some tactics involved, it also was not some big zerfest.
I do also think PVErs need to accept that PVP is important in a sandbox MMO and that PVEing is just as risky. Gear should Decay, It should break and never be repair at some point. Also while mostly avoidable like the SWG PVP system they need to realize that PVP will run the economy more than PVE. So if they want to be no part of the fighting they can be apart of the crafting as well as part of caravans. Yes they will be at some risk however if you want full not no risk Themepark MMOs are more for you. If you what a sandbox accept that at some level you will have to be involved in some PVP. ArcheAge is a great example, if they balance the game correctly for Pirates and Mercs Crafters should have little problem finding protection and in Fair fights have a chance to get out alive with some major profits.
uh? WoW .. it made billions.
Both pve and pvp players logged into WOW ... and no one needs to play with anyone else if they don't want to. Sounds like a perfect solution to me.
PvP in Eve is starting to dry up. Not many new players are bothering and the so called pirates only go after targets who cant fight back.
Null sec is empty due to the large coalitions. Join or be blobbed to death.
This is what usually happens to pvp. For some reason a portion of the pvp players aren't smart enough that if they take it to far people leave the game.
I always laugh when people say they haven't paid for a sub in Eve for x amount of time......they don;t realize its the new players who do....the ones they drive away.
Eve has some big issues atm.
That is the biggest equalizer. No one can force a player to play a FFA pvp game. There are ton of choices today. Why suffer pvp if you are not in the mood for it?
Well it really comes down to the what the carebears dislike so much about the crybabies. The carebears seek to play a game by finding a place in that game they like and play it, as is. (Read: Mace stun spec rogue from old school WoW for example) but then the crybabies (and here is where they get their name) cry on the forums about the stun lock rogue being too powerful in PvP. The carebear didn't care about the build's power in PvP, he liked it because it made a fun rogue in PvE. but he was jumped one time and he owned the crybaby. The crybaby immediately logged off and ran to the forums to cry about his loss. (Check any PvP MMO forums for confirmation of this tactic.)
Carebears are typically happy to live with the builds that game designers make. They dislike change more than initial differences. They hate nerfs. On the other hand, the crybaby prefers nerfs. If he can get the other classes nerfed he stands a better chance to beat them in PvP. The carebear on the other hand hopes all classes are powerful so the group can wade through content more efficiently.
(NOTE: I prefer the terms PvEr (for carebears) and PvPer (for crybabies) but this whole thread is using the derogatory term for PvErs, so I figure the reciprocal would be acceptable as well.)
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire:
Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.