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So Why Do You Want Trinity?
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Gotta agree with this ^ Felix.
For one, 'zerging' has nothing to do w/ class mechanics, trinity or otherwise. Even though people keep trying to pretend that it does. Every MMO has zerging of some form or another. Or at least, every MMO that isn't extremely heavily instanced.
As for the rest of what you said, I think some education might be in order for newer games. Too many people seem to be stuck in older ideals, that they are actively resisting any attempt at change or progression. I've mentioned this more times than I can count, but there are already examples of games that do not adhere to the trinity, and still work. And some of them are very well known, successful, and even groundbreaking games.
I enjoy both trinity & non-trinity games, but I also think that most people don't fully understand the limits of the trinity system, and how non-trinity gameplay works. They are used to their pre-established roles (i'm a healer, i'm a tank, i'm a dps), and that's all they allow themselves to be. They get into games without these established roles, and they end up trying to force square pegs into round holes so to speak. They end up trying to force their non-trinity character into a trinity role anyway. GW2 is a perfect example of people doing this, and indeed I see it a lot in MOBAs as well.
The biggest difference I see between trinity & non-trinity based gameplay is that the non-trinity based games tend to force players to think dynamically about their playstyle. It's adaptive. They can't play their character the same way every fight, and some fights they may have to switch playstyles multiple times during. Some people don't like this, but I think a lot of people just don't understand it. And thus, they just see what looks to them like a chaotic mess, and immediately dismiss it as broken.
Exactly, in any fleet makeup, you need ships that can 'tank' and ships that can shield or armour rep, not limited to logistics but those are the most effective at it, outside of using carriers etc, although you can also rep with drones, to an extent, dps of course is any ship that has sacrificed low slots for damage mods, its a bit of a simplified explanation as there are a whole raft of other support types available ewar etc, but there can be little doubt that Eve combat is based around the trinity, but thats just my opinion as a 2004 player
Here here! This is the same with healers. I don't play tanks usually because I LOVE being a support class, but as a healer I know a good tank from a bad one. A bad tank will make it so the first heal I toss off I end up having everything coming to attack me instead even if I am just doing a small agro one. Also if I were a bad healer I would not be precasting any heals and making the tank worry about their health instead of worrying about their position and keeping everything on them. I think of "trinity" as a type of team where everyone has a specific role to do. Any one of these fail at their role you will have problems. In the end I much prefer a trinity where I have a role than one where I do a little of everything but then have to rely on others to also do a little of everything or else I die. Games that try and eliminate this trinity or these roles I find make it to the point where those players are more "me" centric and then support goes out the window and it then becomes a rush of just masses of bodies against the enemy until it drops. To me its a much less enjoyable game when you are not in a trinity.
I also find it funny the OP of this thread put in a complaint that if everyone is skilled then killing something is just a time waste until you get the loot. Isn't this same statement true on ANY type of game. Skill+Kill=Loot+Time Wasted. Trinity or no still same formula. Maybe don't play games and instead go do something else?
Personal Skill and Challenge- Both are basically the same and exagerated by you to make a false point. What game are you playing that personal skill doesn't count due to the trinity? Play games like Wildstar or Tera Online and tell me how the trinity mitigates anything. Heck, WoW, the game that is dumbed down has plenty of raid encounters where difficulty is huge. The tank doesn't stop random aoes or mechanics requiring more complex play. A good MMo will have ample amount of challenge in play style that makes it difficult to play. DPS tends to have complexity to make it difficult for a harder roll. Healers often have to manage their resources with death being a huge penalty. Tanks (often the most boring though very important) are often tank and spanking with little mechics tossed in, though many games have made it more difficult with mechanics to dodge and things to consider.
Now... lets compare it to GW2 as your example. First off... if you are considering GW2 to involve 'personal skill and challenge' your quite full of yourself. Outside dodging GW2 has one of the most dumbed down combat systems in any MMO. Its extremely simple to play, one of the reasons I found GW2 so boring as the combat system was so slipper and so simplistic it made gameplay just a huge joke. If you are defining the need to dodge as 'challenge' then get into playing wildstar and terra and tell me how it goes cause those games both involve active dodging AND have much stronger and more complex combat systems at play then GW2.
Not having the trinity as GW2 shows creates a huge mess, where you need to MIMIC the trinity to do good. Their attempts to abolish the trinity only shows you need to use it more to be able to do any dungeon. Throwing in those CC abilities, or those support abilities, whether you know it or not you are MIMICING the trinity you claim to hate.
Do games need to use the trinity in its 'simplified' modern day tank/heal/dps format? No, I think it can be pulled off with more variation having classes fill out multiple parts of it, but in the end a trinity makes group dynamics MORE challenging not less. The ironic part is the game you love and are attempting to call out as being good, GW2, is the perfect example WHY the trinity is such a good thing.
Not having a trinity is fine if your MMO is all about solo play with no real need to group even for world bosses. Where it's terrible is during actual difficult group content.
I like to group and i enjoy the interdependency that the tinity provides.
It brings interdependence and scalability to a group. You can easily scale trinity systems from groups to raids and you can easily build in interdependence.
Classic puller-support-CC-tank-dps-heal system offer well defined roles that work well.
Trinity is one of those things that work and stood the test of time, and what works doesn't need to be fixed.
Trinity is what made me feel like a part of a well oiled machine when we entered GoD in Everquest with our Guild, you feel part of something that works, you're not an individual spamming attacks, you're part of a bigger 54 man raid that has a clearly defined structure, and that's appealing, it allows you to scale raids to a massive size without it becoming a zergfest. Defined roles and a tab system is fun for me, zerging is not.
To answer the thread title:
I want to have variation in the roles I play within a game.
All this thread has done is highlight the need for established roles. It doesn't establish the trinity system as the means to do it. You could just as easily make all classes equally capable of all roles, thereby making it impossible to be short on any role. But players don't like the idea of everyone being equal... they want one class and one class only to outshine all the others in respects to role. They want to be that role. They want to be put on a pedestal as the all important switch hitter that must be taken to every raid. You take away established set in concrete roles, you take away that pedestal. You also make it harder for them to play their character because, like in a themepark on rails, they rely on the same rails to help them play their class... the established class wiki pages, the established gear choices, the established spec, the established rotation. Without all these things, they truly are just mashing buttons randomly. You tell them, step by step how to do something, and they are happy. You give them the tools to do anything and chaos ensues. Basically it's not about trinity at all, it's about a lack of direction to the players. And that seems laughable since there is so much hand holding in the games as it is.
Because class specialization is one the foundations of RPGs. While I love Guild Wars 2, it's incredibly hollow and in its desire to change things, threw the baby out with the bathwater. In my experience, Guild Wars 2's content is completed by either zerging or exploiting the broken AI. In both cases, it points to a lack of strategy inherent in their combat system. Without the need for class specialization, combat just becomes chaotic. If anything, this is the system that removes player skill (aside from the dodging, which can exist in a trinity based game) because you're playing to just burn stuff down. You're not caring about healing, condition removal, aggro management. It's just a game of hot potato, especially when ArenaNet is insistent about keeping our skills ephemeral.
Having played Guild Wars 2 and Wildstar, I can say Wildstar required far more skill in my experience. They took a neo-traditional approach to their class design and I feel it's pretty successful. I'm excited to see how it'll grow and change. As I'm sure it will. Consider this, imagine a sport where roles don't matter. Everyone can do anything at all times. That's what Guild Wars 2 is doing.
Here is my take on the "trinity" vs Non-trinity games.
In "Trinity" based games I find that because there are defined roles that need to be in the group, group content tends to be more challenging and a certain degree of player competence is required to complete said content. You can have tank switches and adds and certain mechanics that require roles to do certain things that maybe required of them in raid. This in my opinion makes the game more fun. If you like playing tanks, or healers, or DPS, or Support (Support to me is a debuff, buff, CC classes) then you can and you have a spot for your play style in that game. Also with the more amount of roles that you include in the game the more difficult you can make content which makes it even more fun.
Now, non-trinity games don't have this. They have to cater to the fact that there is a possibility that there will be nothing but DPS classes, so every class needs to be able to heal on their own. Pretty much... I just need the rest of you fools to add DPS so I can get my loot. And to me this means that the game can never reach the degree of tactics and strategy that would be needed for a multi-role style game. See, until them make the AI smart and ever changing the multi-role class system will always have more possibilities in increasing content difficulty. Some thing that can't be said about the non-trinity games as of to date.
Now, GW2, yes you can build into a support class or healer or tank, but your group will always take twice as long and not always be able to succeed where as a full zerker group succeeds regardless most of the time. This tells me that there really is no difficulty in that game. It's a restriction and has always been my annoyance with both GW games. They always feel to restrictive.
Now with all this being said, I can see your point with the newer games being more of a trinity deffinition since some roles have been excluded from older style games. Like a CC specialist, Party buffer, Debuffer. Which does make the newer games seem easier than they where back in the day when other roles where actually needed for group content other than Tank, Healer, DPS. I would love to see these roles make a come back to the gaming scene since I feel they are roles that are haphazardly thrown in on either a DPS class or healer.
I do think almost everyone here like group dynamics, the problem is how trinity games handles tanking.
You should require offensive, defensive and support roles in MMOs but tanking makes combat far too predictable.
In my opinion the tanks need to go, if you switch roles during combat or not is not that important but MMO combat is far too often skill rotations and predictable mobs.
Another issue with tanks is that they don't work well in PvP (unless the system would allow you to taunt other players). Now, some games forces the tank to use body blocking instead of taunts and that works a lot better since it makes combat way more tactical.
But yes, we do need group dynamics in any multiplayer games, I just feel that what we seen since Meridian 59 ain't good enough anymore. The genre needs to evolve and since combat usually is the focus of a MMO it is the ones that needs to be improved most.
I was clearly talking about the DPS role. And please don't make false assumptions about what I have and have not done because I've probably reached endgame in most MMOs after WoW with most of the classes including the korean grinders like Lineage 2. Stay on-topic. If you were careful enough to read you'd see that I personally think the tank is the best role in the trinity because it has got it all.
If you were careful to read what i have said rather than giving me automated response, you would've seen that in my opinion TERA has the best and honestly the only manageable trinity I've seen yet. The game gives you self-survival abilities. I like that.
In response to the OP- I don't necessarily want the trinity, but I do want defined roles.
The reason: - it provides some differentiation between characters rather than a Jack-of-all, master-of-none alternative, where everything feels slightly homogeneous and dull. It also provide more options/ interesting gameplay where classes actually have a specific task to fulfill within a group rather than everyone desperately trying to top dps charts.
That is my opinion anyway. I don't care if you have a completely open skill tree, and alternative routes to achieve the same goal, but regardless I like to see defined roles within a game.
Did you ever consider that's why people like it? It creates a dependency on other players?
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
That is exactly why i do not like it .. it creates a dependency on others.
Well the problem with the "Trinity vs the non tinity" is almost the same as "The entire mmo industry vs GW2".
I get it some people like the trinity some people don't some people want a mix, we are all different. The problem with this is as many of you trinity fans say is that a non-trinity game is a zergfest, easy dungeons and so on.
Well a non trinity mmo doesn't have to be easier then any trinity game it could be the hardest game ever made it's up to the developers. Yes I also agree with you that GW2 in more casual then many other games but this has nothing to do with the trinity it's just the way GW2 was created. Some things in GW2 are the hardest I have ever played in a mmo like the three headed wurm. No matter how many times you complete this event it will never ever be an easy grind.
Other people say that all dungeons are a zerkfest were they run through the dungeon and this is also a GW2 only since developers made so it could be this way but from what I hear and read they are trying to make it harder for zerkers to run through stuff. When I started playing GW2 and first encoutered the fire elemental world boss in Metric we tryied for like 40 min and still was no where near to get it down and I thought that this must be the hardest mmo ever made
Today it's a easy grind for about 3-5 min with no casualties almost and this is because we all know what to do. I think people in wow have completed the final raid in pandaria a few times now and are only doing it for a grind aswell cause they are geared up for the task and they all know what to do.
I don't wanna compaire a dungeon difficulty between wow and gw2 cause they have such different gamestyles but I can say that some of the easier dungeons in gw2 are really just to easy and it isn't that fun anymore, others are really harder and you die all the time.
Some guy said that the trinity is more popular then the non trinity well no sh#t Sherlock, the trinity has been around more an insaine amount of years while the non trinity is quite new to the mmo scene even if there have been smaller non trinity tryies before GW2.
As a former healer in wow who really loved to play a healer I do understand the love some people feel for there classes and I don't see why we can't have both games without a competion between the two game styles.
Reason I left wow was because of the whiners and the forced gear score and stuff like that, I have always felt that people in wow usually whine and point fingers when stuff goes wrong and I hate this part, I don't see this often in GW2 even when we do whipe in dungeons and this is something a feel good about. Now don't get me wrong I am not trying to bash all of you wow players for being whiners cause it's usually only a small percentage that ruins it for all other.
The other reason is PVP, I come from games like counter strike, unreal, quake, red alert well many online competetive games and while I think that World of warcraft is without a doubt one of the greatest games ever made there pvp is really awful, every spell you throw at your target hits like a homing missile so I feel that action combat is so much better at this type of gameplay and once again I would like to point out that this has nothing to do with trinity or non trinity.
I feel that a trinity game could be just as fun and hard to play as a non trinity game in pvp it's just not for me at this point.
Well we can all agree that the non trinity gamestyle is here to stay, not saying that the traditional trinity is going away just saying that they will find a place besides eachother like PC and MAC or Pizza and Hamburgers.
Peace out
And that is why others like it.
Well, I guess the mystery has been solved. /endthread.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Go solo Giganticus Lupicus and come back and tell me how simple and dodge reliant the Gw2 combat is. Sometimes you just have to position yourself. This DOES NOT work in WildStar, SW:TOR and the likes, but yes I acknowledge its okay in Tera.
Here's the example. 2 DPses in WildStar go against a miniboss type of mob. That mob decides to focus on only 1 player, fair enough. That mob is faster than the player, sometimes perma stuns you without even giving you the option to counteract. The mob is not that much faster than the player, if it is to catch up to the player and swing to hit the player would be far away before the swing is over BUT because the player was nearby the monster at the START of the attack and not at the END of the attack the player gets damaged. This is hyper annoying. There is no skill in this. The devs don't even care that shit like that happens and it is the most prominent in trinity based games because in such a game you would have a healer around you against that type of mob .... but what if you don't have a healer around?
I soloed plenty of BAMs in TERA. Lovely feeling, but yeah, they did the combat justice. It's shaken up trinity. One that isn't filled with lazy dev decisions.
Also, more than on one occasion I've been the last man standing in Gw2. If you haven't been there in awhile, they changed the WP system in a way that if 1 party member is in combat, the rest can't use the wp. As a last man standing I had to finish the fight all on my own otherwise I risk to repeat the whole encounter. It is hard, it takes reflexes, it takes knowledge of the encounter and it keeps you taxed 100% of the time. But the feeling at the end is awesome. If you haven't experienced that you haven't truly played a non-trinity game.
Well a horse worked just fine dragging wagons but we still invented the car, some people still love horses we however I go nowhere without my car.
As I said before we are compairing GW2 with all the mmos in the world so it's not fair to say that non trinity gamestyle is nothing but a zerg. Like someone said before, to kill the three headed wurm in GW2 you need a alot of teamwork with about 150 people and this is no zergfest it's very difficult. Me and my friends and a few hundred more have only made this once and we have tryied many times. A few servers have never completed this world boss event so try to zerg it and it will be the fastest failure in history of time. Once again I don't wanna compair EQ with GW2 since I haven't given EQ the time it diserves but I just wanna point out that difficulty can be really hard and achieved with and without the trinity.
I would also point out that a class roll is something that people enjoy and I understand this but having no class roll is also something that people enjoy, were both here to stay and difficulty can be achieved in both gamestyle it's just a different kind of difficulty and teamplay.
You may have a point. A group which is so busy clicking buttons and moving around that they can't converse isn't really building community.
I thought we were using the two terms synonymously.
To me it means clearly defined class roles. I can think of a lot more than three:
1. tank
2. healer
3. crowd control
4. sustained dps
5. burst dps
6. evacuator/transporter (wizard or druid in the case of EQ)
7. puller
8. trap finder / lock pick
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Although this avoids my original point that some open world encounters are designed in a way that a single player or few DPSers cannot complete, unless they overlevel, but ... where's the fun in that?
Then go play those games.. One thing we can always count on from you is , "ALL GAMES SHOULD APPEASE MY DEMANDS".. Some of us want hamburgers, but you demand HOT DOGS on every menu in the world..... STOP IT!! lol
100%.
This is why people 'zerk' through dungeons and 'stack' on each boss. God forbid you want to have fun and actually play the game - your team will yell at you because you are not stacking in a corner.
Path of least resistance, every time - minimal effort, maximum rewards, all the time, every time. That is how people play games, that is why the trinity is favoured, this is why games do not change.
Lazy, boring, unimaginative people make for lazy, boring, unimaginative gamers.
Don't you dare force the players to pay attention, or think, or plan, or communicate. SCEW that. Why? Why the heck would anyone want to do any of that?
Originally posted by Arskaaa
"when players learned tacticks in dungeon/raids, its bread".