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So Why Do You Want Trinity?
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"good" is subjective. So no good games for you probably won't concern me much.
No offense taken from me, everyone enjoys something different. I think people who don't find the best builds are sub par players, and those who can't play a defined role properly or prefer not to are bad at MMO's and strategic combat. No offense of course
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
Have played: You name it
If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
As if people need "achievement" and have to be "good" at games to do well in life. No offense, of course.
It's necessary in any game that has a "raiding" aspect. Why do you ask? Because without it there is no real way to tune content. For example, if a raid required 2 tanks and roughly 2 -3 healers the developers are able to mathematically determine how long a boss should take based on the approximate gear level of the players and how much incoming damage should be manageable, etc.
This works in games like GW2 because there is no real dungeon or raid content thus no need to tune fights. Everyone just zergs while slowly healing themselves and that works because the content isn't necessarily meant to be done in a group anyway.
IMO there is a fine line between "open" character development and just a general cluster @%^&;!
P.S. - to another one of the OPs points...
While it's true that present day WoW raid finder and regular mode do allow for stand there, take damage, and get healed through it the hardmode versions do not. Wildstar is another game where if you stand in the bad you will die.
..What? I didn't use either of those words in my post, and what you said has no correlation to what you quoted.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
Have played: You name it
If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
Yeah, my brain hurts after reading this.
Originally posted by Arskaaa
"when players learned tacticks in dungeon/raids, its bread".
The raiding in Gw2 is open world with timers. I really hate those $%*#&*$%& timers but they are there, can't change that. No clue who came up with that shit but, on point, Tequatl and the great jungle wurm are very tactical "raids" and require the whole map to be coordinated. Simple zerging and meatwalling won't cut it because you have about 15 minutes to kill these bosses each with a mechanic to their own, going through various stages. Those encounters are very very hard and before the megaserver tech only few servers could do them! No zerging is possible there.
Because the alternative is boring as hell and it eliminates all sort of variety. GW2 did not eliminate the trinity to replace it with something new. GW2 made everyone a DPS. But other RPGs did that a long time ago. Diablo for example never had healers/tanks. It was all about dps classes and pew pew but in a different way.
BTW a lot of people complain that with the "trinity" once you've done a dungeon/raid once then it's very easy. But....wait for it....plot twist.....GW2's system is exactly the same. Once you have done it once, it's easy. The only difference is that GW2's dungeons are not fun even the first time haha.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Tequatl is an example of Anet realizing they messed up with no endgame raiding.
They realized that the open world dragons they had before where everyone stood in one spot and hit auto attack failed.
I like the trinity, because if I talk about the most fun I have had in multi-player games, every single time, it has been in a trinity game, in a tightly-knit group of 6 to 8. This is the experience I have always sought, but it's hard to find because the groups always break up as people leave games.
I have enjoyed non-trinity games, but not as much. That is observational data, and doesn't indicate "why."
However, "why" isn't always clear when you look at these things. I would guess that the trinity builds more interesting teamwork, enables people to become good at something even if their reflexes aren't those of a 20-year-old any more, and allows you to do more of what you enjoy (if you like to kill things, become DPS; if you like to help people, become a healer.)
Well yeah they don't have the perfect non-trinity system. But they are learning, and that's a good thing. You can already see it in the design of their living world season 2. I have my hopes up for them, but as you can see, it can work. And it is fun!
uh? How is it boring ... when you can have different types of DPS, cc, movement abilities, physical effects, buffs & debuffs (for example, in Diablo you have to manage all those)?
You don't need trinity to have any of those.
Different types of DPS is still DPS. Just because one shoots arrows and one shoots fireballs doesn't make them different.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
Have played: You name it
If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
I wouldn't call implementing raid mechanics of games many on this site hate on as learning.
One thing I will say about Anet, they have succeeded in re-branding old mechanics so many think they are being innovative.
cc is not dps. Debuff or buffs are not DPS. Movement abilities & collison based gameplay is not dps.
Plus, if you think dps from an arrow is the same as a DOT from fire you put on ground and there is no difference between how to use the two tactically, you don't appreciate tactical combat.
Hmm wait a second; I thought everyone goes DPS in non-trinity a.k.a. skill-based games? That's about as boring as you can get. And looks like Aeonblades, below, agrees with me.
Bravo, TangentPoint! Remind me not to post anything you disagree with.
But nice rhetort BailoPan15, and marvelous use of color both of you. :P
My sentiments exactly. This is why we can't have good games anymore./nod yep.
This thread is full of brilliance, but no one pointed that out as far as I noticed. Kudos.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
A lot of the people who argue in favour of this new trend which GW2 introduced play exclusively DPS classes in traditional MMOs and they are sick of waiting for healers/tanks for their dungeons/raids. So they just want to circumvent this. The very idea of rolling a healer/tank for these people is just nerve wrecking. If their only reference point is mindless dps playstyle in traditional MMOs, of course GW2's system will appear vastly superior. I personally think that the DPS role should be made more dynamic and taxing to make it more challenging but there is no need to eliminate healers/tanks.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
What the problem seems to be (and I've only read the first page) is the focus on action combat here. OP doesn't seem to get the combination of action combat and the trinity and I think that, in their core design, they might not be compatible. I cast a heal to someone in front of me, only to have him move away in the last split-second. It doesn't say anything about the skill of the healer if he then dies, only of the unpredictability of people.
I, for one, don't like pure twitchy/action combat in my MMOs. I actually prefer the 'old' style which I know and love from WoW, RIFT, SWTOR (and many more, yes). I've dabbled in TERA, played GW2 quite a bit, played Planetside 2, but I never got into them all that much. I like having quite a few of skills (not the current trend of having 10-ish and that's it) and gradually learning in what situations each of them is good. This is in both PvP and PvE.
Currently I play a healer class in WoW (Druid if anyone cares) and do both PvP and PvE. Both vary a lot, as in PvE I should know about the boss hit interval (when to cast), keep my HoTs up and know when to use cooldowns, either because of boss abilities and taking off some heat or what to use when hell breaks loose. In PvP there's way less time to react and even less when you're high priority the target (just 95% of the time). I have to know perfectly which cooldowns to pop, what skills to use and when to use them or I'll be see-through and walking to a corpse very soon.
Now I get to the point of why I think this combat style and the trinity go together and why action-based and less to no focus on the trinity work best. When I go into a raid/battleground people expect me to know what I'm doing and to know the ins and outs of my class. Which also means knowing my weaknesses and trying to deal with them best I can. Because I'm so specialised (healer), I create a mutual dependency. They need me to keep them alive, I need them to stop others from killing me, as I cannot do that myself effectively. All specialisations are really different, but the created system of dependencies helps us work together as a team.
Now, if I were playing an action-combat MMO in the same setup, I as a healer would propably have a tough time. Usually you can take fewer hits, as you are able to dodge everything. So if everyone dodges everything, it's busy work dodging, but there's nothing to heal. And if I don't dish out damage I'm utterly useless except for fixing mistakes. And fixing mistakes all the time is a rather poor job, one can easily imagine. So it might be better if I do damage then. Heck, we don't need healers as long as we have a self-heal to buffer for a mistake or two. That's why I think it doesn't go well together.
TL;DR: So to summarise: it's either an environment of codependencies where combat is slower and people are very specialised against an environment where people are very broadly oriented, but mistakes are punished personally and attacks can be dodged. You don't need a healer or a tank when nobody is supposed to take in any damage.
ps: I know I forgot to mention some stuff there. I forgot to emphasise the 'old' combat system lending itself better to role specialisation as you are supposed to take damage and any role other than dps works in that system. Also it's much easier to land your skills on other people that way, which makes every role feel rewarding (because missing a 2 second cast heal can be really painful). The combat can also by 'twitchy', but it's twitchy in another meaning (cooldowns, fast reaction to mistakes, etc). Anyway, I hope I got my point across.
pps: Also I agree that we can do with more roles than 3 and even hybrids (i.e. a dps/cc class and a healer/cc), which allows for much more dynamic group setups and innovative play.
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." - John F. Kennedy
And for MMORPGs ever so true...
Oh please..... Mos ttrinity games allow for builds too. There are only a few optimal builds in either system and pretty much everyone follows those builds. They only change when the devs go to balancing things. Sure you can build a sub-optimal build in either of them, but honestly, who really wants to.
James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?
All through out the thread , and example this post by the OP , is full of untrue biased exagertion , in attempt to make his/her point , you lose credibility when you post blatant tilted bs like this to try and make a point ..
you dont like Trinity we get it... but most people do ....
Really? Biased bullshit, alright. Do you have WildStar? I assume you do. Try to take on one of them monsters that require 2+ members. Even if you overlevel you'll be downed quite often. I tend to solo group events in Gw2 just because I can. Fact of the matter is that not everyone can solo group events. And I don't go bananas if someone comes and assist DPS me. We all play together, and that is fun.
When was the last time you were annoyed at someone for kill stealing you? Because frankly I haven't felt this way in awhile. Ah there is the occasional warrior in WildStar that steals a mob from me but at least the world has many many mobs, but yeah, it's a bit unpleasent.
When was the last time you didn't wait for 20+ minutes on the group finder as DPS?
When was the last time you did anything on your own?
I agree, you guys see trinity as a way of socializing. Nothing wrong with that, but you can't tell me that you have a healer or a tank 100% of the time around you. I just won't accept that.
In a game with soft roles at least I don't have to worry if I'll find the "right" class. I'll just take someone and work with them. Since I'm very good at my games I can always adjust to my teammate, so yeah. Non-trinity eases up grouping and makes everyone happy by having defined soft roles which doesn't hurt. I don't know why you insist so much on limiting yourself. Sure its easier to have one task and one task only, but please try to understand what I'm trying to say here.
Yup. Why is it lacking so many roles -> http://intothemists.com/guides/
And why does it punish you for picking one class and not the other?
You want to be healer? There you go -> http://intothemists.com/guides/3627-best_support
Now ... Do you have any more questions?
P.S: You can find some control builds there too. Something that trinity lacks. Just because you don't want to learn and use the system, doesn't mean the system is bad!
No questions from me, GW2 looks great so I guess I agree with you