I can agree on one thing and I think many will agree with that.
And that is, that John Smedly has been on the helm for far too long and needs to be replaced by someone else.
He has made so many bad decisions over the years. And I mean really bad ones. Not to mention lying to your customers time and again. He would make Pinochio proud!
In any other private Company, he would have gotten the boot years ago. How he is still at the helm at SOE. Totally baffles me.
Originally posted by Dreamo84 I think the obvious point to make here. Is that if Smedley was really doing so bad he probably would have been forced to resign by now...
It's easy to look from the outside and think poorly because we don't like the direction or decisions they've made. But if he were actually costing Sony money rather than making them money I don't think he'd have been left in charge so long.
I actually think SOE is doing really well right now. But the opinions of a dozen hardcore and vocal haters on these forums can kind of make it look like that's not true.
It wouldn't surprise me if Landmark is already profitable and it's not even out of closed beta. DCUO is a hit on PS4/PS3 as a F2P. PS2 will probably do even better I would imagine. Console players love shooting each other lol.
No... I think he's doing fine. Though I could be wrong but we are all just basing this off our own opinions and assumptions rather than any real data.
They just recently closed 3 games,that is not a sign of doing well.The TCG was the worst move,i played it and supported it and SOE's effort from day 1 was VERY slack.That is John's job as head of SOE NA,he needs to make sure the EFFORT is there.I am saying the effort was VERY slack is FACT not opinion,i was there every step of the way and they VERY rarely responded to the multitude of bug reports and other questions users had about the TCG.We are talking MONEY spent on the game and yet players would lose out on matches because of bugs and have to beg SOE for their money back.These bugs and complaints were massive and probably why SOE figured easier to just give up than try to fix all their problems.
I can point to a recent FACT.They recently had lost some Landmark users plots,losing their information in the process.All that hard work that someone put in is lost forever.Remember the SWG ordeal,they claimed the old information was lost.Ok not the end of the world except SOE seems to have more problems than ANY other dev on the planet.Heck they bring their servers down almost every single day for what they call maintenance.Square Enix does not have to bring their servers down almost NEVER in over 11-12 years aside from when they have to make a major update.
The thing that blows my mind more than anything is WHY on earth do they not run back up servers?You would think they would care at least 1% about their supporters hard work to make sure it is not lost but nope,they don't care.
Now in saying all of this,i still stand by the customer support employees,they have always been the best part of SOE throughout the years.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
euu... did you say that the new ESO was a good profitable game ? hahahaha.. its one of the biggest faillure of the year.. so yeah.. Good graphics make awesome game ! keep the spirit ! and .. why oh why.. dont you make any research before buying a game !? there are 1000000 you tube videos on EQlandmark.... you could have seen before.. now.. bye and just dont come back in 5 years... Eq2 was financially a really good move by SoE
I think whether or not the OP is a malign or benign intelligence is besides the point.
The question is:
Q: Are SOE making the right choice in attempting to EXPAND the mmo-(rpg) market via their deployment of tech platforms eg
1. Common option to play/pay all SOE titles bundled
2. Platform for players to sell virtual assets
3. Reusing common technology core to churn out different genres/IP's (PS2, EQN, HZN1 etc etc...)
And the OP identifies significantly large potential markets: Asia, female (~50% of people) and agree the key younger crowd that could latch onto the latest "craze" IP and become besotten with it for life (eg Star Wars fans or whoever).
From this perspective, they probably are making the right choices. I'm not even sure how mmo-rpg some of these titles are intended to be if players are terraforming or FPS or survival zombie genre (that's emerging). From the mmorpg more traditional crowd of D&D I could guess that is not their target audience - now?
For a fact to be a fact, it has to be supported by evidence.
A few posters here (mostly always the same) complaining about cartoon graphics vs millions of players playing games like WoW, Landmark and the more recent Wildstar. There's a fact for you.
But I gave you facts.
The fact that you didn't like them doesn't change that.
Maybe I'm too blind to see, but after reading through your post several times I fail to see any facts at all. But let's just look together, shall we?
Originally posted by noncley
It has always been John Smedley's dream to get three giant and rich demographics to play SOE games:
- The first is females;
- The second is the Asian-based market;
- The third is junior tweens (the crucial 11-15 age bracket where young tastes solidify into longterm adult buying behaviors)
He has always refused to accept that the core gamer market has always been adults - predominantly male - over twenty. If he was ever able to crack one - or more - of these demographics, relatively new to western-based games, he'd make a tonne of money and be viewed as one of the farseeing visionaries of the industry, rather than a bland game-killing lunkhead with an MBA.
So, where's your evidence for this claim? You remember, for a fact to be a fact, it has to be supported by evidence. Otherwise it's just an opinion. In that case, your opinion. Dreams are very personal, how do you know Smedley's dreams? You are his therapist? To be a fact, something like a quote from Smedley would help. I can't see any. Do you?
Originally posted by noncley
Take Star Wars Galaxies, for example. This game was originally designed to be playable with just one hand because John had heard the Chinese like to smoke with the other while they play. Then, two years after launch, John spearheaded the game-killing 'New Game Enhancements' which was essentially an attempt to dumb down the game so that simple enough for kids to want to play it (remember Nancy Macintyre's 'Kill. Loot. Repeat' mantra'). Later, he launched the MMO Stars Wars Clone Wars Adventures specifically to achieve success in the 'kiddie' market (closed down, 2014). To his vacuous credit, Smedly has used SOE to launcyh a number of 'scholarships' and 'initiatives' to encourage or recognise female players within MMOs.
Next you come up with an example. Maybe you think your claim in this example is common knowledge and doesn't need any evidence to be a fact. But that's not true. There could have been several reasons why SWG was designed the way it was and why they changed it with NGE. An anecdote (smoking chinese gamers) is not quite the same as a fact. So better deliver a few evidences. In that state it's only your interpretation of things that happened in the past, not fact ....
Originally posted by noncley
The problem is the animation and the graphic. It's not just that they're cartoonish (hell, WoW built a gigantic success out of cartoonish animation) but that Landmark's specific cartoonish-ethos is the horribly simplistic, sherbet-coloured, highly stylised tropes of junior anime. There are so many things that are red flags for me: When you chop down a tree, giant cartoon logs jump into your bag (a similar thing happens with all crafting and harvesting activities); When you walk a certain distance, you don't walk, you jump, fly and spin (wholly outside your control, mind you); and every landscape looks like its been lifted from WoW's own (failed) attempt at feminised anime, Mists of Pandaria.
More than obvious this is not a fact but your opinion. You want to know my opinion (opinion, not fact, after all I know the difference ) regarding the graphics style? I like it. Realistic graphics gets old very fast. Even if it's state of the art today, it'll be ugly as hell after a few years. And the production costs for photorealistic textures, models, etc. are so much higher it's not worth it. But that's just my opinion ....
Originally posted by noncley
Yes, I know we're only in Beta but anyone who has ever played in a SOE game beta - or any MMO-beta - knows that beta is not about changing the game, it's about polishing it. Despite the uproar relating to the patronising cartoonish-style of the game when it was first revealed a year ago - remember those Tony-the-Tiger Kerrans? - Sony is not going to change a damn thing regarding the style and look of the game.
It's very likely that SOE won't change the graphics style in the future. But's that's not a fact but a prediction. Facts regarding the future are hard to come by So, no fact as well ....
Originally posted by noncley
My point- and I do have one - is that SOE is positioning this game as a sophisticated sandbox that will be the basis of another sophisticated sandbox. However, the childish look and play of the game are at absolutely cross-purposes with this dynamic and emblematic of SOE's real intention: to make 'Hello Kitty: Island Adventure' or tweleve year old Korean girls.
In consequence of fucking up Landmark, I think SOE will inevitably fuck up its much bigger brother, EQN.
See you in five years to see if I was right.
I'm not quite sure if I missed a fact here, but it seems like opinion to me as well. So, tell me if you don't mind, where are your facts?
BTW: it's not bad to have opinons. And it isn't bad to express them in public forums. But you should at least know the difference between opinons and facts. After your last post I highly doubt (an opinion) you know it ....
It has always been John Smedley's dream to get three giant and rich demographics to play SOE games:
- The first is females;
- The second is the Asian-based market;
- The third is junior tweens (the crucial 11-15 age bracket where young tastes solidify into longterm adult buying behaviors)
He has always refused to accept that the core gamer market has always been adults - predominantly male - over twenty. If he was ever able to crack one - or more - of these demographics, relatively new to western-based games, he'd make a tonne of money and be viewed as one of the farseeing visionaries of the industry, rather than a bland game-killing lunkhead with an MBA.
Take Star Wars Galaxies, for example. This game was originally designed to be playable with just one hand because John had heard the Chinese like to smoke with the other while they play. Then, two years after launch, John spearheaded the game-killing 'New Game Enhancements' which was essentially an attempt to dumb down the game so that simple enough for kids to want to play it (remember Nancy Macintyre's 'Kill. Loot. Repeat' mantra'). Later, he launched the MMO Stars Wars Clone Wars Adventures specifically to achieve success in the 'kiddie' market (closed down, 2014). To his vacuous credit, Smedly has used SOE to launcyh a number of 'scholarships' and 'initiatives' to encourage or recognise female players within MMOs.
So what does any of this have to do with 'Landmark'?
Well, a week ago, I bought a 'Settler's Pack' and started playing. I was a very bug fan of EQ1 and a loyal and longterm subscriber to EQ2, SOE's brave but ultimately failed attempt to rival World of Warcraft. I was expecting to love Landmark which emphasises the crafting, exploring and player-led creativity that were a hallmark of old EQ games - and SWG too.
Unfortunately, for me anyway, one look at this game - and fifty hours playing it - tells me this game is not for me.
The problem is the animation and the graphic. It's not just that they're cartoonish (hell, WoW built a gigantic success out of cartoonish animation) but that Landmark's specific cartoonish-ethos is the horribly simplistic, sherbet-coloured, highly stylised tropes of junior anime. There are so many things that are red flags for me: When you chop down a tree, giant cartoon logs jump into your bag (a similar thing happens with all crafting and harvesting activities); When you walk a certain distance, you don't walk, you jump, fly and spin (wholly outside your control, mind you); and every landscape looks like its been lifted from WoW's own (failed) attempt at feminised anime, Mists of Pandaria.
Yes, I know we're only in Beta but anyone who has ever played in a SOE game beta - or any MMO-beta - knows that beta is not about changing the game, it's about polishing it. Despite the uproar relating to the patronising cartoonish-style of the game when it was first revealed a year ago - remember those Tony-the-Tiger Kerrans? - Sony is not going to change a damn thing regarding the style and look of the game.
My point- and I do have one - is that SOE is positioning this game as a sophisticated sandbox that will be the basis of another sophisticated sandbox. However, the childish look and play of the game are at absolutely cross-purposes with this dynamic and emblematic of SOE's real intention: to make 'Hello Kitty: Island Adventure' or tweleve year old Korean girls.
In consequence of fucking up Landmark, I think SOE will inevitably fuck up its much bigger brother, EQN.
See you in five years to see if I was right.
Let me open with...I'm not an SOE fan...they are the worst of the big companies...no doubt. That said, wtf are you talking about? lol
Incognito www.incognito-gaming.us "You're either with us or against us"
So... according to you, Smedley is targeting the wrong audience, but that doesn't matter since developers at large have a skewed sense of what that audience wants, so the overall direction and focus of Landmark is wrong, thus Next will be deemed a failure and it'll sound the death knell for the entire IP? Sorry if I missed the point, there was a lot of unrelated ranting and raving going on there.
This all stemmed from you not liking the graphics? Hell, I thought they were decent, and I'm the 20 plus male demographic you said they were ignoring. I loved the movement. If that grappling hook ports to Next and I can use it in PvP, I'm going to be in heaven. So, maybe you extrapolated a bit too much. Here's a thought. If they are working at cross-purposes and 'Hello Kitty: Island Adventure' never gets made, do you think there might just be one or two gamers out there who will actually like the result?
p.s. If feminine = sexy character models to you. And MoP is the feminine expansion. Does that mean you have a thing for pandas? I'm not judging, just curious. Maybe it relates to why we have such different aesthetic tastes.
Lets try something a little different this time, instead of bashing or praising a game to death before it's even remotely due to go live, we practice our post release pattern of not saying a damn thing anymore about the game because we've long since moved on.
Well, a week ago, I bought a 'Settler's Pack' and started playing. I was a very bug fan of EQ1 and a loyal and longterm subscriber to EQ2, SOE's brave but ultimately failed attempt to rival World of Warcraft. I was expecting to love Landmark which emphasises the crafting, exploring and player-led creativity that were a hallmark of old EQ games - and SWG too.
Actually... EQ2 and WoW were in development at the same time. EQ2 released on 11/4/2004. WoW released almost a month later, on the 23rd. So, EQ2 was not an attempt to rival WoW. WoW wasn't even out yet. You could argue that after WoW's launch, Smed and co. switched gears and began trying to make EQ2 more like WoW (a move I hated then, and still think was a bad idea in the long run). But at that point, there was no rivaling WoW. It was a run-away success. At best, SOE was unsuccessfully trying to play "keep up" with WoW, just like almost every other MMO dev out there since.
In my opinion, it was a huge mistake for SOE to switch gears so suddenly, and so soon after launch. For one, it pissed off a lot of EQ2 players at the time who were playing EQ2 because it was a viable alternative to WoW. It continued to piss people off because after that point, EQ2 fell into an on-going identity crisis. I lost count of how many times they did revamps of systems in the game, requiring people to re-learn their characters, etc. SOE could have taken cues from WoW to, perhaps, improve certain aspects of their game, but in my opinion, they should have kept going on the path they'd set out on, with making EQ2 a MMO much more focused on role-play and world immersion. Doing away with class transfers, doing away with the "Entrance to the city" quest lines, doing away with the unique neighborhoods for each race, etc... all of that sucked out so much flavor and identity from EQ2. They responded to WoW in a completely knee-jerk manner, and ran the wrong way with it, again, in my opinion. I think they'd have done much more to continue developing and improving on EQ2 in the direction they'd originally designed it for. They were, arguably, the first MMO to make the mistake of trying to chase after WoW's success, and fail.
Another big reason EQ2 didn't do well, apart from the gameplay and such, was the tech. That was a *huge* difference. WoW would practically run on a toaster, and at pretty high settings. EQ2 was a bloated, system-draining behemoth, that was built on the expectation that CPU architecture would continue to grow in a direction it ultimately didn't. Basically, EQ2 was built around the expectation that CPUs on home PCs would continue to be single-core, and that clock speeds would just continue to increase. So, when the industry took a turn and started introducing multi-core CPUs on home PCs, instead of the single-core/hyperthreaded approach EQ2 was depending on, it fell behind. It's also why EQ2 didn't support multi-core CPUs for so long. Essentially, SOE based EQ2's performance on where they thought Processor tech was going, and lost. Kind of a sloppy explanation, but that's basically what happened there.
Point is, the reason for EQ2's failure is a multi-headed monster, equally shared between choices made before launch, and changes made after launch.
I think EQ2 could have been a MMO to rival, if not at least be a far bigger competitor for WoW, if SOE hadn't made so many poor decisions for it.
I kinda forgot where I was going with all this... So yeah... blueberry pancakes.
It has always been John Smedley's dream to get three giant and rich demographics to play SOE games:
- The first is females;
- The second is the Asian-based market;
- The third is junior tweens (the crucial 11-15 age bracket where young tastes solidify into longterm adult buying behaviors)
He has always refused to accept that the core gamer market has always been adults - predominantly male - over twenty. If he was ever able to crack one - or more - of these demographics, relatively new to western-based games, he'd make a tonne of money and be viewed as one of the farseeing visionaries of the industry, rather than a bland game-killing lunkhead with an MBA.
Take Star Wars Galaxies, for example. This game was originally designed to be playable with just one hand because John had heard the Chinese like to smoke with the other while they play. Then, two years after launch, John spearheaded the game-killing 'New Game Enhancements' which was essentially an attempt to dumb down the game so that simple enough for kids to want to play it (remember Nancy Macintyre's 'Kill. Loot. Repeat' mantra'). Later, he launched the MMO Stars Wars Clone Wars Adventures specifically to achieve success in the 'kiddie' market (closed down, 2014). To his vacuous credit, Smedly has used SOE to launcyh a number of 'scholarships' and 'initiatives' to encourage or recognise female players within MMOs.
So what does any of this have to do with 'Landmark'?
Well, a week ago, I bought a 'Settler's Pack' and started playing. I was a very bug fan of EQ1 and a loyal and longterm subscriber to EQ2, SOE's brave but ultimately failed attempt to rival World of Warcraft. I was expecting to love Landmark which emphasises the crafting, exploring and player-led creativity that were a hallmark of old EQ games - and SWG too.
Unfortunately, for me anyway, one look at this game - and fifty hours playing it - tells me this game is not for me.
The problem is the animation and the graphic. It's not just that they're cartoonish (hell, WoW built a gigantic success out of cartoonish animation) but that Landmark's specific cartoonish-ethos is the horribly simplistic, sherbet-coloured, highly stylised tropes of junior anime. There are so many things that are red flags for me: When you chop down a tree, giant cartoon logs jump into your bag (a similar thing happens with all crafting and harvesting activities); When you walk a certain distance, you don't walk, you jump, fly and spin (wholly outside your control, mind you); and every landscape looks like its been lifted from WoW's own (failed) attempt at feminised anime, Mists of Pandaria.
Yes, I know we're only in Beta but anyone who has ever played in a SOE game beta - or any MMO-beta - knows that beta is not about changing the game, it's about polishing it. Despite the uproar relating to the patronising cartoonish-style of the game when it was first revealed a year ago - remember those Tony-the-Tiger Kerrans? - Sony is not going to change a damn thing regarding the style and look of the game.
My point- and I do have one - is that SOE is positioning this game as a sophisticated sandbox that will be the basis of another sophisticated sandbox. However, the childish look and play of the game are at absolutely cross-purposes with this dynamic and emblematic of SOE's real intention: to make 'Hello Kitty: Island Adventure' or tweleve year old Korean girls.
In consequence of fucking up Landmark, I think SOE will inevitably fuck up its much bigger brother, EQN.
See you in five years to see if I was right.
Just have to love all the false information in your post. SWG was made playable with one hand to help players with handicaps you state it had to do with the chinese but were clearly trolling. John Smedley didn't sperhead the NGE, Jeff Freeman had the Idea and Julio Torres of LA spearheaded it. As for EQ2 it was out before WoW and built off the EQ legacy so once again you posted false info.
Originally posted by Dreamo84 The average gamer doesn't even know who makes what games or who John Smedley is. They just play what looks fun and keep playing if it is fun.
I know plenty of avid "gamers" that don't have a clue who makes any of the games they play.
As simple as this statement is, it could not be more true or critical for a game. If it is not addictive and fun, you as the game designer, messed up big time. I do not understand why so many games today just are not fun to play even for 5 minutes? Do not the designers know what fun is anymore? If a game company like Bethesda can "get it" every time they make a game what does it say for those who fail to capture "fun". They must not pay the right people to test the game and ask them whether it is "fun to play". In the end, fun is all the matters. I think it maybe the only thing.
The fact is after being a SOE player for over a decade. I can say the exact same thing.
I would just add one more thing to this though for better understanding for those who have not played games of SOE for the last decade:
Smeldy is a shrewd business man who grew up in the 80s atomosphere of conquer all, destroy companies and jobs if it makes you a small profit. kind of attitude from movies like "Wall Street" with Michael Douglas, in fact almost everything he does with his games makes me think of Michael Douglas in that movie.
Smeldy has always and will always treat his games just like a business from the 80s. He will treat his players, loyal or not, like Charlie Sheen in Wallstreet; as employeees of a company that when profits are not high enough, to fire everyone in a company, and dismantle and sellout the machinery of that company for bigger profits. Much like him closing down the four games to free up resources to make EQN, even when those games are still profitable and the kids of freerealms begged him to keep it open with tears in their eyes, including his very OWN daughter!
Has Smeldy lived up to the dream of every ruthless 80's businessman's dream by targeting wider and more profitable markets instead of being that loyal factory owner who cares about its employees (players) or its companies (games)? I would say Dream Come True Smeldy, Dream come true. Well done Smeldy, you would make every 80s businessman proud and very jealous of how you have handled EQN.
Shut down 4 games (companies) to make a Giant Money Maker, (EQN) with little to no care of the players of those games, nor any care about making a game previous players from EQ1 and EQ2 wanted. Its all about the money! Stick up for him if you want, but I have seen this song and dance before, and what do you think will happen to the players of EQL and EQN when its no longer big enough profits for Smedly? It's like the saying goes, "Bow down before the one you serve, your going to get what you deserve" - NIN
SOE's brave but ultimately failed attempt to rival World of Warcraft.
1.) EQ2 Launched before WoW did, it began development before WoW did. EQ2 was the sequel to the largest and most successful MMO to date when it launched, WoW was the very first attempt at an MMO by a company who built its success on a single player IP.
- WoW was Blizzards ultimately successful attempt to rival EQ2
2.) Calling EQ2 a failure by any standard only makes you seem like you have no idea what you are talking about and that you are only another hater that's trolling SOE.
I think you may be being too literal.
Just because EQ2 launched first does not mean that it was not intended to rival Blizzard's WoW. And, as we know, the drastic changes that took place within both EQ2 itself - and other SOE games such as SWG - were designed to make the games more like WoW.
And, of course, EQ2 is a failure - if you compare it to tjhe subscriber numbers and revenue streams of WoW. It's fruitless to try to argue otherwise.
I have been playing MMO games now - including such SOE games as EQ, EQ2, SWG and Vanguard - for more than tebn years so, as a customer, I am qualified to talk about my experiences of this company.
EQ2 was actually a HUGE hit. It just doesnt seem like that because you are not taking it into context.
EQ2 was the sequal to EQ, and compared to EQ1 it was a HUGE success. You have to remember that WoW was not even in the picture (had not launched) when EQ2 came out. Sure, they did rush it out to beat Warcraft, but at the time they thought that they were the sure winner of that competition, and they felt that they could preempt the newcomer by releaseing early (and improve the game later).
Think of it this way. If you went from being a small local market, to a regional store with brand recognition, and dozens of locations.... you are a major sucesss. It doesnt matter that Walmart also came out at the same time, and became the world dominant store.
So this thread is about the artstyle? Fair enough, everyone has their own taste I guess. As for Landmark/EQN it's a smart move. Graphics stay relevant longer than 5 years (tops), SoEMote will look a lot better and the world looks more vibrant. With most realistic looking games the colors seem to be washed out and down right boring. In my experience after playing a certain period of time the eye normalizes the graphic style anyhow and shifts to how animations look or lighting/shading effects.
I understand that for some playing a game with more cartoonish graphics is a deal breaker no matter how long they try to play it. That is really too bad as the plans laid out for Landmark are for a "make your own MMO" experience over time as features continue to be added. The plan for Landmark isn't just limited to EQN either. It's been specifically stated that features for future MMOs will also be added to Landmark as they are developed. I'm interested to see how far they go with it.
i dont see EQnext and landmark succeed either because SOE said it will be on console aswell..
So basicly developing a game with for example boring combat due to limitations of console keystrokes.
I would be a similair effect like GW2 i think.. eqnext will not apply for the old school eq players but will be simply focussed on a wider audiance while basicly destroying the eq franshise
I would be a similair effect like GW2 i think.. eqnext will not apply for the old school eq players but will be simply focussed on a wider audiance while basicly destroying the eq franshise
Sooo producing a game in the same style as EQ or EQ2 would be a success because of? There has been who knows how many MMOS produced since 1999, few where really successfull, all of them built on the EQ, EQ2, WoW foundation. SOE tries to do something new, untried and different and some people here do not want that.
And if you feel that way it is Ok. just realize that you are not the target audience anymore and look into games that still target your style of gameplay.
I can agree on one thing and I think many will agree with that.
And that is, that John Smedly has been on the helm for far too long and needs to be replaced by someone else.
He has made so many bad decisions over the years. And I mean really bad ones. Not to mention lying to your customers time and again. He would make Pinochio proud!
In any other private Company, he would have gotten the boot years ago. How he is still at the helm at SOE. Totally baffles me.
Well said.
A good CEO realizes when he is no longer effective and steps down, a good company realizes when change of management is needed.
Companies go through different stages in their existance - much like people - and different leaders are needed for different stages.
Most companies that have the same old leadership get stuck in a rut - and that's what I feel is the *CORE* issue with SOE
Just my 2c
QFT.
$medley must leave.
I'm a big fan of the EQ franchise and I can't wait to see what EQN will be. But at the same time I'm continuously asking myself "how the heck will they screw it up this time ?".
The giant toilet that won a building competition in Landmark was a first step. I'm afraid of all the other incoming ones ...
Originally posted by Aztec On most points, I agree with the OP. If Sony were to go for more realism verses cartoon that would be one major improvement. It is not all SOE fault though. I think one challenge that we have now that really did not come into play with the old classic games was consoles. Now it seems every game has to be dumbed downed so it will work better on a console. Bottom line is the games design suffers badly right from the start. Too much of a games potential is cut becasue it will work on a pc but not on a console unless we sacrifice the quality of this this and that. IMHO we should all go back to PC gaming and stop buying consoles and some of these problems you see will just slowly go away. But really great game studios like Bethesda Softworks have shown that the blending can be done right (i.e. Skyrim) Take the same game and give it to Zenimax studios and the game is destroyed. So leadership and know how does play a role as well.
Skyrim is probably my all time favorite video game. If not, it's certainly up there. And for all the entertainment I have gotten from it, I can also say it has same major, fundamental flaws. One of them is that as a PC player, there isn't one minute, one encounter, one interaction, one menu click where I am not painfully reminded of the limitations of a console game. Especially with crafting and inventory.
So, I'll agree with the 1st part of your post, but I'll disagree with the second. I don't think Bethesda really does a good job porting their game's UI to PC. It's just that their games are really good and it makes up for the difference.
Originally posted by SirBalin Originally posted by noncleyIt has always been John Smedley's dream to get three giant and rich demographics to play SOE games:- The first is females;- The second is the Asian-based market;- The third is junior tweens (the crucial 11-15 age bracket where young tastes solidify into longterm adult buying behaviors)He has always refused to accept that the core gamer market has always been adults - predominantly male - over twenty. If he was ever able to crack one - or more - of these demographics, relatively new to western-based games, he'd make a tonne of money and be viewed as one of the farseeing visionaries of the industry, rather than a bland game-killing lunkhead with an MBA.Take Star Wars Galaxies, for example. This game was originally designed to be playable with just one hand because John had heard the Chinese like to smoke with the other while they play. Then, two years after launch, John spearheaded the game-killing 'New Game Enhancements' which was essentially an attempt to dumb down the game so that simple enough for kids to want to play it (remember Nancy Macintyre's 'Kill. Loot. Repeat' mantra'). Later, he launched the MMO Stars Wars Clone Wars Adventures specifically to achieve success in the 'kiddie' market (closed down, 2014). To his vacuous credit, Smedly has used SOE to launcyh a number of 'scholarships' and 'initiatives' to encourage or recognise female players within MMOs. So what does any of this have to do with 'Landmark'?Well, a week ago, I bought a 'Settler's Pack' and started playing. I was a very bug fan of EQ1 and a loyal and longterm subscriber to EQ2, SOE's brave but ultimately failed attempt to rival World of Warcraft. I was expecting to love Landmark which emphasises the crafting, exploring and player-led creativity that were a hallmark of old EQ games - and SWG too.Unfortunately, for me anyway, one look at this game - and fifty hours playing it - tells me this game is not for me.The problem is the animation and the graphic. It's not just that they're cartoonish (hell, WoW built a gigantic success out of cartoonish animation) but that Landmark's specific cartoonish-ethos is the horribly simplistic, sherbet-coloured, highly stylised tropes of junior anime. There are so many things that are red flags for me: When you chop down a tree, giant cartoon logs jump into your bag (a similar thing happens with all crafting and harvesting activities); When you walk a certain distance, you don't walk, you jump, fly and spin (wholly outside your control, mind you); and every landscape looks like its been lifted from WoW's own (failed) attempt at feminised anime, Mists of Pandaria.Yes, I know we're only in Beta but anyone who has ever played in a SOE game beta - or any MMO-beta - knows that beta is not about changing the game, it's about polishing it. Despite the uproar relating to the patronising cartoonish-style of the game when it was first revealed a year ago - remember those Tony-the-Tiger Kerrans? - Sony is not going to change a damn thing regarding the style and look of the game.My point- and I do have one - is that SOE is positioning this game as a sophisticated sandbox that will be the basis of another sophisticated sandbox. However, the childish look and play of the game are at absolutely cross-purposes with this dynamic and emblematic of SOE's real intention: to make 'Hello Kitty: Island Adventure' or tweleve year old Korean girls.In consequence of fucking up Landmark, I think SOE will inevitably fuck up its much bigger brother, EQN.See you in five years to see if I was right.
Let me open with...I'm not an SOE fan...they are the worst of the big companies...no doubt. That said, wtf are you talking about? lol I think this mad man is talking about sony is trying to make a twelve year old Korean girl. I'm not entirely sure, but that is definitely what I read at the end.
I will give it a go but ESO was such a disappointment to me and its not a bad game.
I just lost the addictive taste for mmos,they feel all the same.
EQN is my last hope for a mmo but like the post said if its too made for children then ill maybe just play for a view weeks.
good lesson l learned with ESO don't subscribe till you have played for a while.
THE dark souls games from soft ware and miazaki that works for sony no making blood borne that's the games I cant get enough of now,if it was not for those games I would have stopped gaming.
Ah, it's just another rant about the game's graphics...
The choice of graphic style is very smart considering the nature of voxels.
(adding to this)
If you don't like the Graphics right now??
You can just wait a few years....
More tools and more options WILL come out that allow us "artists" to make higher definition work and possibly even rig our own animations and textures and other cool stuff. One thing I'd like to try there for instance, would be recreating a bunch of Jane-Austin era graphics within the game world. (not b/c I'm hoping it will get the older more mature ladies to notice-me-senpai, but b/c the level of detail would be an Awesome art challenge). Meanwhile some other people will no doubt try to make the most Non-cartoony steampunk or camelot-esque areas they can and the characters, outfits, textures, and whatever else which can be modified, will support it eventually.
See the cool thing about this technology (even on Voxels) is that it can also support Bump & Displacement mapping with the right tweaks. And once you can do that, you can literally OFFLOAD all of the really limited Database "cartoony" graphics off onto GPU shaders and physX stuff which eventually leads to 3rd party graphical mods incase SOE themselves don't allow enough of that power through the Player Studio system itself. Then the only limiter just becomes Polycounts
Comments
This ^
John must go. EGN AND Landmark must be wiped.
They just recently closed 3 games,that is not a sign of doing well.The TCG was the worst move,i played it and supported it and SOE's effort from day 1 was VERY slack.That is John's job as head of SOE NA,he needs to make sure the EFFORT is there.I am saying the effort was VERY slack is FACT not opinion,i was there every step of the way and they VERY rarely responded to the multitude of bug reports and other questions users had about the TCG.We are talking MONEY spent on the game and yet players would lose out on matches because of bugs and have to beg SOE for their money back.These bugs and complaints were massive and probably why SOE figured easier to just give up than try to fix all their problems.
I can point to a recent FACT.They recently had lost some Landmark users plots,losing their information in the process.All that hard work that someone put in is lost forever.Remember the SWG ordeal,they claimed the old information was lost.Ok not the end of the world except SOE seems to have more problems than ANY other dev on the planet.Heck they bring their servers down almost every single day for what they call maintenance.Square Enix does not have to bring their servers down almost NEVER in over 11-12 years aside from when they have to make a major update.
The thing that blows my mind more than anything is WHY on earth do they not run back up servers?You would think they would care at least 1% about their supporters hard work to make sure it is not lost but nope,they don't care.
Now in saying all of this,i still stand by the customer support employees,they have always been the best part of SOE throughout the years.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
made me laugh!
"i saw this game and KNEW IN AN INSTANT i don't like it. non the less i played 2 days straight!"
seriously, if you don't like games, don't fucking play em - makes life MUCH easier if you actually do stuff YOU ENJOY DOING.
explains why you wrote like 500000000000 words tho on that topic.
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
I think whether or not the OP is a malign or benign intelligence is besides the point.
The question is:
Q: Are SOE making the right choice in attempting to EXPAND the mmo-(rpg) market via their deployment of tech platforms eg
1. Common option to play/pay all SOE titles bundled
2. Platform for players to sell virtual assets
3. Reusing common technology core to churn out different genres/IP's (PS2, EQN, HZN1 etc etc...)
And the OP identifies significantly large potential markets: Asia, female (~50% of people) and agree the key younger crowd that could latch onto the latest "craze" IP and become besotten with it for life (eg Star Wars fans or whoever).
From this perspective, they probably are making the right choices. I'm not even sure how mmo-rpg some of these titles are intended to be if players are terraforming or FPS or survival zombie genre (that's emerging). From the mmorpg more traditional crowd of D&D I could guess that is not their target audience - now?
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
Maybe I'm too blind to see, but after reading through your post several times I fail to see any facts at all. But let's just look together, shall we?
So, where's your evidence for this claim? You remember, for a fact to be a fact, it has to be supported by evidence. Otherwise it's just an opinion. In that case, your opinion. Dreams are very personal, how do you know Smedley's dreams? You are his therapist? To be a fact, something like a quote from Smedley would help. I can't see any. Do you?
Next you come up with an example. Maybe you think your claim in this example is common knowledge and doesn't need any evidence to be a fact. But that's not true. There could have been several reasons why SWG was designed the way it was and why they changed it with NGE. An anecdote (smoking chinese gamers) is not quite the same as a fact. So better deliver a few evidences. In that state it's only your interpretation of things that happened in the past, not fact ....
More than obvious this is not a fact but your opinion. You want to know my opinion (opinion, not fact, after all I know the difference
) regarding the graphics style? I like it. Realistic graphics gets old very fast. Even if it's state of the art today, it'll be ugly as hell after a few years. And the production costs for photorealistic textures, models, etc. are so much higher it's not worth it. But that's just my opinion ....
It's very likely that SOE won't change the graphics style in the future. But's that's not a fact but a prediction. Facts regarding the future are hard to come by
I'm not quite sure if I missed a fact here, but it seems like opinion to me as well. So, tell me if you don't mind, where are your facts?
BTW: it's not bad to have opinons. And it isn't bad to express them in public forums. But you should at least know the difference between opinons and facts. After your last post I highly doubt (an opinion) you know it ....
Let me open with...I'm not an SOE fan...they are the worst of the big companies...no doubt. That said, wtf are you talking about? lol
Incognito
www.incognito-gaming.us
"You're either with us or against us"
So... according to you, Smedley is targeting the wrong audience, but that doesn't matter since developers at large have a skewed sense of what that audience wants, so the overall direction and focus of Landmark is wrong, thus Next will be deemed a failure and it'll sound the death knell for the entire IP? Sorry if I missed the point, there was a lot of unrelated ranting and raving going on there.
This all stemmed from you not liking the graphics? Hell, I thought they were decent, and I'm the 20 plus male demographic you said they were ignoring. I loved the movement. If that grappling hook ports to Next and I can use it in PvP, I'm going to be in heaven. So, maybe you extrapolated a bit too much. Here's a thought. If they are working at cross-purposes and 'Hello Kitty: Island Adventure' never gets made, do you think there might just be one or two gamers out there who will actually like the result?
p.s. If feminine = sexy character models to you. And MoP is the feminine expansion. Does that mean you have a thing for pandas? I'm not judging, just curious. Maybe it relates to why we have such different aesthetic tastes.
Just have to love all the false information in your post. SWG was made playable with one hand to help players with handicaps you state it had to do with the chinese but were clearly trolling. John Smedley didn't sperhead the NGE, Jeff Freeman had the Idea and Julio Torres of LA spearheaded it. As for EQ2 it was out before WoW and built off the EQ legacy so once again you posted false info.
I know plenty of avid "gamers" that don't have a clue who makes any of the games they play.
As simple as this statement is, it could not be more true or critical for a game. If it is not addictive and fun, you as the game designer, messed up big time. I do not understand why so many games today just are not fun to play even for 5 minutes? Do not the designers know what fun is anymore? If a game company like Bethesda can "get it" every time they make a game what does it say for those who fail to capture "fun". They must not pay the right people to test the game and ask them whether it is "fun to play". In the end, fun is all the matters. I think it maybe the only thing.
gimme!
EQ2 fan sites
I couldnt agree more with the OP.
The fact is after being a SOE player for over a decade. I can say the exact same thing.
I would just add one more thing to this though for better understanding for those who have not played games of SOE for the last decade:
Smeldy is a shrewd business man who grew up in the 80s atomosphere of conquer all, destroy companies and jobs if it makes you a small profit. kind of attitude from movies like "Wall Street" with Michael Douglas, in fact almost everything he does with his games makes me think of Michael Douglas in that movie.
Smeldy has always and will always treat his games just like a business from the 80s. He will treat his players, loyal or not, like Charlie Sheen in Wallstreet; as employeees of a company that when profits are not high enough, to fire everyone in a company, and dismantle and sellout the machinery of that company for bigger profits. Much like him closing down the four games to free up resources to make EQN, even when those games are still profitable and the kids of freerealms begged him to keep it open with tears in their eyes, including his very OWN daughter!
Has Smeldy lived up to the dream of every ruthless 80's businessman's dream by targeting wider and more profitable markets instead of being that loyal factory owner who cares about its employees (players) or its companies (games)? I would say Dream Come True Smeldy, Dream come true. Well done Smeldy, you would make every 80s businessman proud and very jealous of how you have handled EQN.
Shut down 4 games (companies) to make a Giant Money Maker, (EQN) with little to no care of the players of those games, nor any care about making a game previous players from EQ1 and EQ2 wanted. Its all about the money! Stick up for him if you want, but I have seen this song and dance before, and what do you think will happen to the players of EQL and EQN when its no longer big enough profits for Smedly? It's like the saying goes, "Bow down before the one you serve, your going to get what you deserve" - NIN
EQ2 was actually a HUGE hit. It just doesnt seem like that because you are not taking it into context.
EQ2 was the sequal to EQ, and compared to EQ1 it was a HUGE success. You have to remember that WoW was not even in the picture (had not launched) when EQ2 came out. Sure, they did rush it out to beat Warcraft, but at the time they thought that they were the sure winner of that competition, and they felt that they could preempt the newcomer by releaseing early (and improve the game later).
Think of it this way. If you went from being a small local market, to a regional store with brand recognition, and dozens of locations.... you are a major sucesss. It doesnt matter that Walmart also came out at the same time, and became the world dominant store.
So this thread is about the artstyle? Fair enough, everyone has their own taste I guess. As for Landmark/EQN it's a smart move. Graphics stay relevant longer than 5 years (tops), SoEMote will look a lot better and the world looks more vibrant. With most realistic looking games the colors seem to be washed out and down right boring. In my experience after playing a certain period of time the eye normalizes the graphic style anyhow and shifts to how animations look or lighting/shading effects.
I understand that for some playing a game with more cartoonish graphics is a deal breaker no matter how long they try to play it. That is really too bad as the plans laid out for Landmark are for a "make your own MMO" experience over time as features continue to be added. The plan for Landmark isn't just limited to EQN either. It's been specifically stated that features for future MMOs will also be added to Landmark as they are developed. I'm interested to see how far they go with it.
i dont see EQnext and landmark succeed either because SOE said it will be on console aswell..
So basicly developing a game with for example boring combat due to limitations of console keystrokes.
I would be a similair effect like GW2 i think.. eqnext will not apply for the old school eq players but will be simply focussed on a wider audiance while basicly destroying the eq franshise
Sooo producing a game in the same style as EQ or EQ2 would be a success because of? There has been who knows how many MMOS produced since 1999, few where really successfull, all of them built on the EQ, EQ2, WoW foundation. SOE tries to do something new, untried and different and some people here do not want that.
And if you feel that way it is Ok. just realize that you are not the target audience anymore and look into games that still target your style of gameplay.
Chi puo dir com'egli arde é in picciol fuoco.
He who can describe the flame does not burn.
Petrarch
QFT.
$medley must leave.
I'm a big fan of the EQ franchise and I can't wait to see what EQN will be. But at the same time I'm continuously asking myself "how the heck will they screw it up this time ?".
The giant toilet that won a building competition in Landmark was a first step. I'm afraid of all the other incoming ones ...
Skyrim is probably my all time favorite video game. If not, it's certainly up there. And for all the entertainment I have gotten from it, I can also say it has same major, fundamental flaws. One of them is that as a PC player, there isn't one minute, one encounter, one interaction, one menu click where I am not painfully reminded of the limitations of a console game. Especially with crafting and inventory.
So, I'll agree with the 1st part of your post, but I'll disagree with the second. I don't think Bethesda really does a good job porting their game's UI to PC. It's just that their games are really good and it makes up for the difference.
I think this mad man is talking about sony is trying to make a twelve year old Korean girl. I'm not entirely sure, but that is definitely what I read at the end.
I will give it a go but ESO was such a disappointment to me and its not a bad game.
I just lost the addictive taste for mmos,they feel all the same.
EQN is my last hope for a mmo but like the post said if its too made for children then ill maybe just play for a view weeks.
good lesson l learned with ESO don't subscribe till you have played for a while.
THE dark souls games from soft ware and miazaki that works for sony no making blood borne that's the games I cant get enough of now,if it was not for those games I would have stopped gaming.
If you don't like the Graphics right now??
You can just wait a few years....
More tools and more options WILL come out that allow us "artists" to make higher definition work and possibly even rig our own animations and textures and other cool stuff. One thing I'd like to try there for instance, would be recreating a bunch of Jane-Austin era graphics within the game world. (not b/c I'm hoping it will get the older more mature ladies to notice-me-senpai, but b/c the level of detail would be an Awesome art challenge). Meanwhile some other people will no doubt try to make the most Non-cartoony steampunk or camelot-esque areas they can and the characters, outfits, textures, and whatever else which can be modified, will support it eventually.
See the cool thing about this technology (even on Voxels) is that it can also support Bump & Displacement mapping with the right tweaks. And once you can do that, you can literally OFFLOAD all of the really limited Database "cartoony" graphics off onto GPU shaders and physX stuff which eventually leads to 3rd party graphical mods incase SOE themselves don't allow enough of that power through the Player Studio system itself. Then the only limiter just becomes Polycounts