I have to agree with some of the other commenters on here that it seems like group content just isn't right anymore for your group of friends, and that's perfectly fine. 90% of the MMOs on the current market are advertised as "Solo to max level" as an incentive.
Unfortunately I don't want to solo in an MMO that's not why I play them and so posts like this sadden me because the vast majority of MMOs incentivise non group play now.
The thread (as with all long threads go) went into some really out there tangents but this post still is on topic so I'll respond to it.
Please do not be sadden because MMOs still incentivise group play.
1. Best gear? Raids
2. Quickest Exp in MMOs? Group play. In SWTOR/WoW, quickest way to level is to group up and just run instances. I will add that some MMOs lets you 'buy levels' though; GW2, WoW, LoTRO etc.
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Unfortunately I don't want to solo in an MMO that's not why I play them and so posts like this sadden me because the vast majority of MMOs incentivise non group play now.
Fortunately i do want to solo in a MMO. IP and content are why i play them.
Unfortunately I don't want to solo in an MMO that's not why I play them and so posts like this sadden me because the vast majority of MMOs incentivise non group play now.
Fortunately i do want to solo in a MMO. IP and content are why i play them.
And as players like Nari are the majority, gaming houses stick two fingers up to everyone else.
Unfortunately I don't want to solo in an MMO that's not why I play them and so posts like this sadden me because the vast majority of MMOs incentivise non group play now.
Fortunately i do want to solo in a MMO. IP and content are why i play them.
And as players like Nari are the majority, gaming houses stick two fingers up to everyone else.
Why so? Is it really the general consensus that the majority of players wants group content, or the other way around as per the OP? What is the basis for such a finding? I say this not in disagreement and only out of curiousity, haha.
Appearently you started with WoW and so never experienced what REAL Group content and social interaction is!
Since WoW, every MMO that came after.... Group content is solely Limited to gear grinds that causes more grief than actually fun social interaction!
I hate to bring up SWG again, but in the days of SWG (pre-NGE) there were no gear grinds! There was no Trinity system forcing you to have a tank, off tank, bunch of DPS and a healer or two!
People just got together, traveled and just do stuff! Be it sacking an rebel or imperial base, night sister or Rancor hunting or one of the awesome world bosses.
People just get together, travel to a spot. A ranger put up a camp for People to heal, buff, prepare, etc and then we just went on a hunt together!
Or People just gathered and socialized in one of the cantinas. Busy in a guild hall or player house / shop, etc.
That´s what Group content was about! People created the Group activities themselves! With no pressure! No stupid Trinity system forced Down your throat! No horrible tedious gear grinds!
And then it didn´t matter if you were a student, a single or married person with kids. You could just come online whenever you wanted, do what you wanted and spend time as long as it suited you, without any pressure.
/SIGH ! I really miss that kind of stuff in MMO´s these days. :-(
QFT. This is the big problem with Themepark MMO's, which is all MMO's post 2004. They force the story on you, they make you believe that because its voice acted, you need to pay attention because its important. Bullcrap. SWG, somehow, someway, got it right. All the content you ever need is a good social circle (guild) and a good spawn of Rancors to group grind, and whamo, a full night of fun. You helped each other out, you had chat bubbles, you bonded with your character and mostly importantly you bonded with other people, people from different backgrounds and cultures. something that just doesn't happen anymore due to tiny world zones, "match making" for pvp/pve content, and instances.
MMO's aren't about the adventure with people and the bonding of communities. It's all about getting that ilvl115 gear so your not kicked from the next raid group of abunch of people that you don't even know...
I enjoy undercutting people in the market place - it's the only PvP a crafter gets.
Why so? Is it really the general consensus that the majority of players wants group content, or the other way around as per the OP? What is the basis for such a finding? I say this not in disagreement and only out of curiousity, haha.
The average gamer age is 31+ with the largest section being 36+.
At age 36+ the majority of people has other responsibility that hinders their game time. It doesn't really matter whether someone wants group content or not as 'crying baby' (or other real life stuff) overrides everything.
Which is why most MMOs have progression systems of 20-40mins nowadays and why people prefer soloable content.
People who can commit to the '3-4 hours raiding 3 times a week' are decreasing.
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
QFT. This is the big problem with Themepark MMO's, which is all MMO's post 2004. They force the story on you, they make you believe that because its voice acted, you need to pay attention because its important. Bullcrap. SWG, somehow, someway, got it right. All the content you ever need is a good social circle (guild) and a good spawn of Rancors to group grind, and whamo, a full night of fun. You helped each other out, you had chat bubbles, you bonded with your character and mostly importantly you bonded with other people, people from different backgrounds and cultures. something that just doesn't happen anymore due to tiny world zones, "match making" for pvp/pve content, and instances.
MMO's aren't about the adventure with people and the bonding of communities. It's all about getting that ilvl115 gear so your not kicked from the next raid group of abunch of people that you don't even know...
Last I checked, nothing is stopping people from 'bonding with others' in any MMOs.
Whether people do them or not is up to individual preference and it isn't the MMO's fault if people don't.
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Financially Eve was probably never in the red. CCP is a private company, handling their own money. Eve was initially funded by a board game if you can believe it. They spent 5 years in development and another 7 years to get close to where they are today. That's where the twelve year number comes from. This worked for them, but it probably wouldn't work for any not self financed game or company. People keep pointing to Eve as a model that would work for other games, but they keep ignoring how Eve really is a unique snowflake in the market.
I believe technology is a big factor here. Would a game like EVE take 5 years to develop if the same size dev studio started work on it today? In the past you pretty much needed huge studios with huge resources to make an MMO and companies like CCP really were the rare exception but I believe this is changing. If the cost and time investment becomes low enough we might even see some big publishers make some of these smaller MMOs to diversify.
Banking everything on one several hundred million dollar game is a very risky strategy. And even if AAA publishers don't step up I believer a new crop of smaller indie devs will spring up as has already happened in single player games.
Why do you believe it is changing? Development tools and processes aren't easier or cheaper to use now than they were five or ten years ago. They are considerably more expensive in terms of labor if nothing else. Indie developers are making games, but they aren't making MMORPGs. Those guys on Kickstarter? They are dumping millions of their own into the games, in addition to all the money they are getting from fans. The MMORPGs with sub million dollar goals are only building tech demos, and you'll notice they aren't getting very far with them. The only people making progress are the people with millions of their own money to spend, and who have years of experience in the industry.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Why do you believe it is changing? Development tools and processes aren't easier or cheaper to use now than they were five or ten years ago. They are considerably more expensive in terms of labor if nothing else. Indie developers are making games, but they aren't making MMORPGs. Those guys on Kickstarter? They are dumping millions of their own into the games, in addition to all the money they are getting from fans. The MMORPGs with sub million dollar goals are only building tech demos, and you'll notice they aren't getting very far with them. The only people making progress are the people with millions of their own money to spend, and who have years of experience in the industry.
Well I personally find what something like The Repopulation has been able to accomplish with a sub-million dollar budget and a couple of years of development time pretty impressive. I'm not an expert in the technology but stuff like Unity does seem to make it easier for small teams. These games are really my only hope right now as current crop of big budget AAA MMOs hold very little interest for me.
Unfortunately I don't want to solo in an MMO that's not why I play them and so posts like this sadden me because the vast majority of MMOs incentivise non group play now.
Fortunately i do want to solo in a MMO. IP and content are why i play them.
And as players like Nari are the majority, gaming houses stick two fingers up to everyone else.
Is there a reason why devs cannot cater to whomever they want?
Is making a FPS "stick two finger up" those who like RTS? It is not a contest, it is a market.
Why do you believe it is changing? Development tools and processes aren't easier or cheaper to use now than they were five or ten years ago. They are considerably more expensive in terms of labor if nothing else. Indie developers are making games, but they aren't making MMORPGs. Those guys on Kickstarter? They are dumping millions of their own into the games, in addition to all the money they are getting from fans. The MMORPGs with sub million dollar goals are only building tech demos, and you'll notice they aren't getting very far with them. The only people making progress are the people with millions of their own money to spend, and who have years of experience in the industry.
Well I personally find what something like The Repopulation has been able to accomplish with a sub-million dollar budget and a couple of years of development time pretty impressive. I'm not an expert in the technology but stuff like Unity does seem to make it easier for small teams. These games are really my only hope right now as current crop of big budget AAA MMOs hold very little interest for me.
The Repopulation was in development for four years prior to their 2012 Kickstarter. The money they've raised through Kickstarter has been a small part of their overall development cost and effort. They said themselves, even without the Kickstarter, they planned on having the game ready to release in 2013.
They have a long list of people on their website as being members of their team. Their list of former contributors totals 18 people. This was not an inexpensive project. A team of close to fifty people did not spend six years working on a game and have the budget come in under a million dollars. Ten people working for six years would push well past the million dollar mark.
This is kind of like people pointing at Eve and how they are a model for success, but ignoring all the things about Eve and CCP that make them unique. The Repopulation is a cool game, but people ignore the huge effort and expense that is going into the game's construction.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Unfortunately I don't want to solo in an MMO that's not why I play them and so posts like this sadden me because the vast majority of MMOs incentivise non group play now.
Fortunately i do want to solo in a MMO. IP and content are why i play them.
And as players like Nari are the majority, gaming houses stick two fingers up to everyone else.
The majority has the most money, the majority wins. If you don't like being in the minority, convince more people to like grouping. Whining about it won't help, you actually have to grow your preferred playstyle.
The aim of this thread was an observation that the players preference on grouping or not is irrelevant. 'Baby crying' or equivalent will override any entertainment activity for the majority of people now. This isn't the mmos fault. Players grew up and their lives changed.
The majority ain't 20-something anymore.
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Originally posted by jpnz The aim of this thread was an observation that the players preference on grouping or not is irrelevant. 'Baby crying' or equivalent will override any entertainment activity for the majority of people now. This isn't the mmos fault. Players grew up and their lives changed.
The majority ain't 20-something anymore.
You keep using your own situation trying to describe things for the average MMO player, and you use the average gamer to describe the MMO player, and the average age to describe the average family situation, and that's just statistical nonsense. If you want to know about the average MMO player you have to study MMO players.
Metrics from bioware said that the average swtor player spent 30-40 hours per week on the game during release month. Metrics taken in wow said that 20-25% had kids.
The same kind of studies have shown that 2/3 of players have no desire to socialize within the game, although they would like to play with their significant other or with friends. That's why dungeon finders were created, to give you easy access to dungeons. Pug has a far higher chance of falling apart, but with shorter dungeons there are far less chance that people ditch the group in the middle of it, and you don't lose that much progress if someone does it.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
I'm in that age range and don't have kids. Don't want kids, world is overpopulated as it is. And that's why I don't want to raid either, because I don't want to deal with some self absorbed disgusting little mutant only child who always seems to typically run a raid. Anytime you get 24 MMO players together at least a good half of them are going to be worthless human beings. So why the rush to breed to create more?
That's the reason for less interactivity in video games and group content is because most people have no interest in talking to you.
(before anyone gets too upset, Im joking. But in fact the reason people don't want to group is because other people ruin it.)
Originally posted by jpnz The aim of this thread was an observation that the players preference on grouping or not is irrelevant. 'Baby crying' or equivalent will override any entertainment activity for the majority of people now. This isn't the mmos fault. Players grew up and their lives changed.
The majority ain't 20-something anymore.
You keep using your own situation trying to describe things for the average MMO player, and you use the average gamer to describe the MMO player, and the average age to describe the average family situation, and that's just statistical nonsense. If you want to know about the average MMO player you have to study MMO players.
Metrics from bioware said that the average swtor player spent 30-40 hours per week on the game during release month. Metrics taken in wow said that 20-25% had kids.
The same kind of studies have shown that 2/3 of players have no desire to socialize within the game, although they would like to play with their significant other or with friends. That's why dungeon finders were created, to give you easy access to dungeons. Pug has a far higher chance of falling apart, but with shorter dungeons there are far less chance that people ditch the group in the middle of it, and you don't lose that much progress if someone does it.
I didn't realise MMO players aren't 'gamers'. *rolls eyes*
I don't recall saying anything about 'lack of time'. It is the lack of certainty in 'CONTINUAL TIME' that is the issue here.
Me and my friends spent 2-3 hours that night in Karazhan; a group activity.
Would any one of us last a week in a 'raiding guild'? No we wouldn't and that's because of life choices we made as we got older. Are we unique and special because of that? No because the majority of age 36+ have kids / family.
This isn't hard to understand right?
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Originally posted by jpnz The aim of this thread was an observation that the players preference on grouping or not is irrelevant. 'Baby crying' or equivalent will override any entertainment activity for the majority of people now. This isn't the mmos fault. Players grew up and their lives changed.
The majority ain't 20-something anymore.
You keep using your own situation trying to describe things for the average MMO player, and you use the average gamer to describe the MMO player, and the average age to describe the average family situation, and that's just statistical nonsense. If you want to know about the average MMO player you have to study MMO players.
Metrics from bioware said that the average swtor player spent 30-40 hours per week on the game during release month. Metrics taken in wow said that 20-25% had kids.
The same kind of studies have shown that 2/3 of players have no desire to socialize within the game, although they would like to play with their significant other or with friends. That's why dungeon finders were created, to give you easy access to dungeons. Pug has a far higher chance of falling apart, but with shorter dungeons there are far less chance that people ditch the group in the middle of it, and you don't lose that much progress if someone does it.
I didn't realise MMO players aren't 'gamers'. *rolls eyes*
I don't recall saying anything about 'lack of time'. It is the lack of certainty in 'CONTINUAL TIME' that is the issue here.
Me and my friends spent 2-3 hours that night in Karazhan; a group activity.
Would any one of us last a week in a 'raiding guild'? No we wouldn't and that's because of life choices we made as we got older. Are we unique and special because of that? No because the majority of age 36+ have kids / family.
This isn't hard to understand right?
MMO players counts as gamers just like people playing flappy bird are considered gamers, noone would ever consider the gaming habits of an MMO player to be equal that of someone playing on their iphone, except that's exactly what you did.
As far as raiding guild goes, back in 2006 only 1% entered naxxramas, far before people allegedly started to breed like rabbits. Raiding always been a minority activity, and its never been because people had kids.
Far more players will enter group content if its accessible, short and easy. Its only on the individual level that family status matters.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
MMO players counts as gamers just like people playing flappy bird are considered gamers, noone would ever consider the gaming habits of an MMO player to be equal that of someone playing on their iphone, except that's exactly what you did.
As far as raiding guild goes, back in 2006 only 1% entered naxxramas, far before people allegedly started to breed like rabbits. Raiding always been a minority activity, and its never been because people had kids.
Far more players will enter group content if its accessible, short and easy. Its only on the individual level that family status matters.
If you want to refuse to believe reports on gamer age, you go ahead and do that.
I do find it highly amusing that you can't cite a single report that fits your narrative but keep on creating strawman arguments.
WoW's raiding (before LFR) was actually 50% in WoTLK; it was considered as something to be proud of by Blizzard at the time. Which was what? 5 years ago?
'Short and easy' That pretty much summarises the group content we have today.
All my OP was about was that 'long and hard' group content is no longer something the majority of the player-base can play.
Not sure if your argument will go down well with other 'pro-group' players around here; the 'MMOs are about GROUP CONTENT!' types.
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Originally posted by jpnz The aim of this thread was an observation that the players preference on grouping or not is irrelevant. 'Baby crying' or equivalent will override any entertainment activity for the majority of people now. This isn't the mmos fault. Players grew up and their lives changed.
The majority ain't 20-something anymore.
You keep using your own situation trying to describe things for the average MMO player, and you use the average gamer to describe the MMO player, and the average age to describe the average family situation, and that's just statistical nonsense. If you want to know about the average MMO player you have to study MMO players.
Metrics from bioware said that the average swtor player spent 30-40 hours per week on the game during release month. Metrics taken in wow said that 20-25% had kids.
The same kind of studies have shown that 2/3 of players have no desire to socialize within the game, although they would like to play with their significant other or with friends. That's why dungeon finders were created, to give you easy access to dungeons. Pug has a far higher chance of falling apart, but with shorter dungeons there are far less chance that people ditch the group in the middle of it, and you don't lose that much progress if someone does it.
I didn't realise MMO players aren't 'gamers'. *rolls eyes*
I don't recall saying anything about 'lack of time'. It is the lack of certainty in 'CONTINUAL TIME' that is the issue here.
Me and my friends spent 2-3 hours that night in Karazhan; a group activity.
Would any one of us last a week in a 'raiding guild'? No we wouldn't and that's because of life choices we made as we got older. Are we unique and special because of that? No because the majority of age 36+ have kids / family.
This isn't hard to understand right?
MMO players are gamers. However, I do agree that while the general population of gamers has an average of 30 something, the more specific population of MMO players may be younger or older. We don't really know how old they are. I know MMO gamers that are in their twenties, with no kids, and MMO gamers that are my age, with kids and their kids play too. My daughter played WoW for the first time the other day after mocking me for it for years. She's just installed it on her laptop because it was fun. :-)
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I'm 40 and still have lots of time to play games. I just don't want to sit in a raid anymore with a bunch of people I don't really like but need them to get loot.
I'd rather goof off doing not so serious stuff with people I actually enjoy playing with. Many of them have time issues so I guess it's still a factor but really I've just been there and done it and even have a bunch of T-shirts. Raiding just isn't all the different in these games.
I'm 30 but our mind set isn't that different, really. Raiding is very much like a job and, at least in my opinion, exists to fill some kind of hole that people are missing when they are being slung through the education system, dealing with the duldrums of blue collar work, etc. There are exceptions, such as those that just love to micromanage becoming in game leaders for Guilds and play raid scheduler, but over all it seems like a consistent theme.
I mean, I'm a software engineer for a mid sized company and participating in end game raiding is basically the same as my work life: You got something that needs to be done and requires people to spend time learning how to get the said task done all the while having that feeling that everyone is expecting you to have learned said something by 10 AM yesterday. Well, raid leaders tend to be a little more lenient, but it comes close. =p
If (massively) MULTIPLAYER (online) Games not have multiplayer (group) contents then what multiplayer stand for ?
mysterious question.
Your definition of "multiplayer" is too narrow. When Richard Garriott coined the term, he wasn't talking about dungeons. He was talking about all of the interactions between players and the persistence of those interactions over time. Buying things from other players, talking to other players and just traveling with other players are all aspects of the multiplayer aspects of the games. You could remove dungeon/group content completely and the games would still be MMORPGs.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I've already cited the same article the OP uses to detail how flawed it is to say that MMO gamers (specifically) are portrayed incredibly accurately by a group of data that includes casual gamers that play many of their games through their smartphone/Facebook.
To the OP: bite sized content doesn't have to be solo. You're thinking about groups in very narrow terms.
In my experience, group content works best when it's ad hoc, rather than as a McGroup run through a McDungeon. Yes, I'm writing about the sandbox experience.
In my game of choice yesterday morning I was invited to group by a relative newbie, and when I asked if there was any particular reason the reply was "just to hang out". So we got together with no particular goals in mind, and it turned into a neat little experience where we pursued some smaller objectives in a relatively safe corner of the woods.
I was able to share a little bit of the wealth I had accumulated, and there was some interesting discussion over the best tactics for our tacit mission and whether or not two players belonging to warring factions were "enemies" or not if part of the same group. All told, it was about a 45 minute experience, and to me it was at the heart of what MMOs are all about.
In conclusion, I guess it's about approaching objectives on the game's terms in an improvisational fashion. A prerequisite is that the game must allow players to broadly integrate and provide objectives at all ends of the scale.
I am a parent, too.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
Comments
The thread (as with all long threads go) went into some really out there tangents but this post still is on topic so I'll respond to it.
Please do not be sadden because MMOs still incentivise group play.
1. Best gear? Raids
2. Quickest Exp in MMOs? Group play. In SWTOR/WoW, quickest way to level is to group up and just run instances. I will add that some MMOs lets you 'buy levels' though; GW2, WoW, LoTRO etc.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Fortunately i do want to solo in a MMO. IP and content are why i play them.
And as players like Nari are the majority, gaming houses stick two fingers up to everyone else.
Why so? Is it really the general consensus that the majority of players wants group content, or the other way around as per the OP? What is the basis for such a finding? I say this not in disagreement and only out of curiousity, haha.
QFT. This is the big problem with Themepark MMO's, which is all MMO's post 2004. They force the story on you, they make you believe that because its voice acted, you need to pay attention because its important. Bullcrap. SWG, somehow, someway, got it right. All the content you ever need is a good social circle (guild) and a good spawn of Rancors to group grind, and whamo, a full night of fun. You helped each other out, you had chat bubbles, you bonded with your character and mostly importantly you bonded with other people, people from different backgrounds and cultures. something that just doesn't happen anymore due to tiny world zones, "match making" for pvp/pve content, and instances.
MMO's aren't about the adventure with people and the bonding of communities. It's all about getting that ilvl115 gear so your not kicked from the next raid group of abunch of people that you don't even know...
I enjoy undercutting people in the market place - it's the only PvP a crafter gets.
The average gamer age is 31+ with the largest section being 36+.
At age 36+ the majority of people has other responsibility that hinders their game time. It doesn't really matter whether someone wants group content or not as 'crying baby' (or other real life stuff) overrides everything.
Which is why most MMOs have progression systems of 20-40mins nowadays and why people prefer soloable content.
People who can commit to the '3-4 hours raiding 3 times a week' are decreasing.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Last I checked, nothing is stopping people from 'bonding with others' in any MMOs.
Whether people do them or not is up to individual preference and it isn't the MMO's fault if people don't.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Why do you believe it is changing? Development tools and processes aren't easier or cheaper to use now than they were five or ten years ago. They are considerably more expensive in terms of labor if nothing else. Indie developers are making games, but they aren't making MMORPGs. Those guys on Kickstarter? They are dumping millions of their own into the games, in addition to all the money they are getting from fans. The MMORPGs with sub million dollar goals are only building tech demos, and you'll notice they aren't getting very far with them. The only people making progress are the people with millions of their own money to spend, and who have years of experience in the industry.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Well I personally find what something like The Repopulation has been able to accomplish with a sub-million dollar budget and a couple of years of development time pretty impressive. I'm not an expert in the technology but stuff like Unity does seem to make it easier for small teams. These games are really my only hope right now as current crop of big budget AAA MMOs hold very little interest for me.
Is there a reason why devs cannot cater to whomever they want?
Is making a FPS "stick two finger up" those who like RTS? It is not a contest, it is a market.
The Repopulation was in development for four years prior to their 2012 Kickstarter. The money they've raised through Kickstarter has been a small part of their overall development cost and effort. They said themselves, even without the Kickstarter, they planned on having the game ready to release in 2013.
They have a long list of people on their website as being members of their team. Their list of former contributors totals 18 people. This was not an inexpensive project. A team of close to fifty people did not spend six years working on a game and have the budget come in under a million dollars. Ten people working for six years would push well past the million dollar mark.
This is kind of like people pointing at Eve and how they are a model for success, but ignoring all the things about Eve and CCP that make them unique. The Repopulation is a cool game, but people ignore the huge effort and expense that is going into the game's construction.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
The majority has the most money, the majority wins. If you don't like being in the minority, convince more people to like grouping. Whining about it won't help, you actually have to grow your preferred playstyle.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
The majority ain't 20-something anymore.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
You keep using your own situation trying to describe things for the average MMO player, and you use the average gamer to describe the MMO player, and the average age to describe the average family situation, and that's just statistical nonsense. If you want to know about the average MMO player you have to study MMO players.
Metrics from bioware said that the average swtor player spent 30-40 hours per week on the game during release month. Metrics taken in wow said that 20-25% had kids.
The same kind of studies have shown that 2/3 of players have no desire to socialize within the game, although they would like to play with their significant other or with friends. That's why dungeon finders were created, to give you easy access to dungeons. Pug has a far higher chance of falling apart, but with shorter dungeons there are far less chance that people ditch the group in the middle of it, and you don't lose that much progress if someone does it.
I'm in that age range and don't have kids. Don't want kids, world is overpopulated as it is. And that's why I don't want to raid either, because I don't want to deal with some self absorbed disgusting little mutant only child who always seems to typically run a raid. Anytime you get 24 MMO players together at least a good half of them are going to be worthless human beings. So why the rush to breed to create more?
That's the reason for less interactivity in video games and group content is because most people have no interest in talking to you.
(before anyone gets too upset, Im joking. But in fact the reason people don't want to group is because other people ruin it.)
I didn't realise MMO players aren't 'gamers'. *rolls eyes*
I don't recall saying anything about 'lack of time'. It is the lack of certainty in 'CONTINUAL TIME' that is the issue here.
Me and my friends spent 2-3 hours that night in Karazhan; a group activity.
Would any one of us last a week in a 'raiding guild'? No we wouldn't and that's because of life choices we made as we got older. Are we unique and special because of that? No because the majority of age 36+ have kids / family.
This isn't hard to understand right?
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
I will say (as the OP) that raging against me and making it personal (while amusing) makes little sense.
Like I said in my OP, people grew up.
If raging against me makes people not grow up than that's AWESOME (ETERNAL YOUTH!). But that isn't the case.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
MMO players counts as gamers just like people playing flappy bird are considered gamers, noone would ever consider the gaming habits of an MMO player to be equal that of someone playing on their iphone, except that's exactly what you did.
As far as raiding guild goes, back in 2006 only 1% entered naxxramas, far before people allegedly started to breed like rabbits. Raiding always been a minority activity, and its never been because people had kids.
Far more players will enter group content if its accessible, short and easy. Its only on the individual level that family status matters.
If you want to refuse to believe reports on gamer age, you go ahead and do that.
I do find it highly amusing that you can't cite a single report that fits your narrative but keep on creating strawman arguments.
WoW's raiding (before LFR) was actually 50% in WoTLK; it was considered as something to be proud of by Blizzard at the time. Which was what? 5 years ago?
'Short and easy' That pretty much summarises the group content we have today.
All my OP was about was that 'long and hard' group content is no longer something the majority of the player-base can play.
Not sure if your argument will go down well with other 'pro-group' players around here; the 'MMOs are about GROUP CONTENT!' types.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
MMO players are gamers. However, I do agree that while the general population of gamers has an average of 30 something, the more specific population of MMO players may be younger or older. We don't really know how old they are. I know MMO gamers that are in their twenties, with no kids, and MMO gamers that are my age, with kids and their kids play too. My daughter played WoW for the first time the other day after mocking me for it for years. She's just installed it on her laptop because it was fun. :-)
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I'm 30 but our mind set isn't that different, really. Raiding is very much like a job and, at least in my opinion, exists to fill some kind of hole that people are missing when they are being slung through the education system, dealing with the duldrums of blue collar work, etc. There are exceptions, such as those that just love to micromanage becoming in game leaders for Guilds and play raid scheduler, but over all it seems like a consistent theme.
I mean, I'm a software engineer for a mid sized company and participating in end game raiding is basically the same as my work life: You got something that needs to be done and requires people to spend time learning how to get the said task done all the while having that feeling that everyone is expecting you to have learned said something by 10 AM yesterday. Well, raid leaders tend to be a little more lenient, but it comes close. =p
If (massively) MULTIPLAYER (online) Games not have multiplayer (group) contents then what multiplayer stand for ?
mysterious question.
Your definition of "multiplayer" is too narrow. When Richard Garriott coined the term, he wasn't talking about dungeons. He was talking about all of the interactions between players and the persistence of those interactions over time. Buying things from other players, talking to other players and just traveling with other players are all aspects of the multiplayer aspects of the games. You could remove dungeon/group content completely and the games would still be MMORPGs.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
In my experience, group content works best when it's ad hoc, rather than as a McGroup run through a McDungeon. Yes, I'm writing about the sandbox experience.
In my game of choice yesterday morning I was invited to group by a relative newbie, and when I asked if there was any particular reason the reply was "just to hang out". So we got together with no particular goals in mind, and it turned into a neat little experience where we pursued some smaller objectives in a relatively safe corner of the woods.
I was able to share a little bit of the wealth I had accumulated, and there was some interesting discussion over the best tactics for our tacit mission and whether or not two players belonging to warring factions were "enemies" or not if part of the same group. All told, it was about a 45 minute experience, and to me it was at the heart of what MMOs are all about.
In conclusion, I guess it's about approaching objectives on the game's terms in an improvisational fashion. A prerequisite is that the game must allow players to broadly integrate and provide objectives at all ends of the scale.
I am a parent, too.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance