If (massively) MULTIPLAYER (online) Games not have multiplayer (group) contents then what multiplayer stand for ?
mysterious question.
They do have multiplayer content, you're just defining it wrong. Look at all those people that you can play in the same world with. That's multiplayer.
Originally posted by Phaserlight To the OP: bite sized content doesn't have to be solo. You're thinking about groups in very narrow terms.
In my experience, group content works best when it's ad hoc, rather than as a McGroup run through a McDungeon. Yes, I'm writing about the sandbox experience.
In my game of choice yesterday morning I was invited to group by a relative newbie, and when I asked if there was any particular reason the reply was "just to hang out". So we got together with no particular goals in mind, and it turned into a neat little experience where we pursued some smaller objectives in a relatively safe corner of the woods.
I was able to share a little bit of the wealth I had accumulated, and there was some interesting discussion over the best tactics for our tacit mission and whether or not two players belonging to warring factions were "enemies" or not if part of the same group. All told, it was about a 45 minute experience, and to me it was at the heart of what MMOs are all about.
In conclusion, I guess it's about approaching objectives on the game's terms in an improvisational fashion. A prerequisite is that the game must allow players to broadly integrate and provide objectives at all ends of the scale.
I am a parent, too.
I can remember plenty of times when I'd be out grinding in the wilderness, I'd run across someone else doing the same thing and we'd end up grinding content together. We were never a group, we never even talked to each other, but we could go after harder mobs by working together so we did that for a while, until one of us decided to go off on our own again. It was natural and organic and didn't require any programmed mechanics. I'd much prefer playing a game like that than one where you have to fit into a structured environment.
Originally posted by MadFrenchie I've already cited the same article the OP uses to detail how flawed it is to say that MMO gamers (specifically) are portrayed incredibly accurately by a group of data that includes casual gamers that play many of their games through their smartphone/Facebook.
Gamers are gamers.
Do you believe the age spread of casual gamers are different from normal gamers?
Heck, I play smartphone games in my commute and I'm pretty sure i'm not the only one.
I cited a report and the US Census to support my argument. If you have anything other than 'you are wrong cause I SAY SO!' than I am happy to listen to them.
Saying 'This report is bad cause MMO playerbase are different!' is irrelevant when all you have is 'cause my kid brother next door plays and he is only 10 / 20 / 30 / 40 years old!'
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Originally posted by Phaserlight To the OP: bite sized content doesn't have to be solo. You're thinking about groups in very narrow terms. /snip I am a parent, too.
'The increase in bite sized content (whether it is group or solo) is due to the increase in the age of MMO players' is pretty much my thread. Raiding / Fixed scheduled group content is all doable (LFR / LFG) if it is 'bite sized'. I see bite sized as 20-40mins but that will depend on one's preference and game.
Wailing about how MMOs should be about group content goes against what the playerbase will do. Does the playerbase want group content? That's an irrelevant question as what the playerbase 'want' is different from what they will 'do'.
I am a bit wary that this thread is getting a bit too close to the 'Group vs Solo' sticky though. >.>
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Originally posted by MadFrenchie I've already cited the same article the OP uses to detail how flawed it is to say that MMO gamers (specifically) are portrayed incredibly accurately by a group of data that includes casual gamers that play many of their games through their smartphone/Facebook.
Gamers are gamers.
Do you believe the age spread of casual gamers are different from normal gamers?
Heck, I play smartphone games in my commute and I'm pretty sure i'm not the only one.
I cited a report and the US Census to support my argument. If you have anything other than 'you are wrong cause I SAY SO!' than I am happy to listen to them.
Saying 'This report is bad cause MMO playerbase are different!' is irrelevant when all you have is 'cause my kid brother next door plays and he is only 10 / 20 / 30 / 40 years old!'
This is a valid nitpick. MMORPG Gamers are a sub-set of the Gamer population. Furthermore, some MMORPG Gamers are exclusively play MMORPGs, and some of them play other types of games. It is entirely feasible that MOBA players are on average younger than MMORPG players. It's also feasible that MMORPG players are on average the same as gamers in general.
Knowing the average age of gamers does not tell us the average age of MMORPG players. It doesn't matter where the information comes from, because the information doesn't apply to the group of people you are applying it to, but to the parent group they are a part of.
Yes, MMORPG players who keep playing MMORPGs are getting older. Of course they are. But new players are entering the genre all the time. Yes, the average gamer is 30 something years old. What percentage of them are MMORPG players? What percentage of them are married? What percentage of them are playing games with their kids, or buying games for their kids? Their children are the new players entering the market. Your assessment that people with a family and children aren't going to spend four hours a night in raids is perfectly feasible, but the same could be said about people returning to school to finish a degree they never finished.
So, Plausible, but not Proven.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Yes, MMORPG players who keep playing MMORPGs are getting older. Of course they are. But new players are entering the genre all the time. Yes, the average gamer is 30 something years old. What percentage of them are MMORPG players? What percentage of them are married? What percentage of them are playing games with their kids, or buying games for their kids? Their children are the new players entering the market. Your assessment that people with a family and children aren't going to spend four hours a night in raids is perfectly feasible, but the same could be said about people returning to school to finish a degree they never finished.
US: Female age 32 yrs, male age 29 yrs, 47% were single, 25% were parents. 53% had fulltime job.
The study is the most comprehensive I could find and with 2071 US players answering its a good representation of players and he has done those kinds of studies plenty of times.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
People who can commit to the '3-4 hours raiding 3 times a week' are decreasing.
Where are they going?
World population is increasing year after year. Why is the MMO playerbase aging and shrinking instead of expanding and diversifying?
Because the 3-4 hour raid isn't part of how today's generation does anything. It has nothing to do with short attention spans, instant gratification or any of the other talking points that get regurgitated here by the crusty old MMOGeriatrics.
Their generation is used to having immediate access because that tech is part of their world and has been since they started using technology. In the time it takes to do a raid from prep to finish they could have checked Facebook, posted a bunch of photos to instagram/pintrest/tumblr/etc, sent and receive 30 text messages, and played a game of League of Legends.
MMOs are a waste of their time.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by jpnz Originally posted by MadFrenchie I've already cited the same article the OP uses to detail how flawed it is to say that MMO gamers (specifically) are portrayed incredibly accurately by a group of data that includes casual gamers that play many of their games through their smartphone/Facebook.
Gamers are gamers.
Do you believe the age spread of casual gamers are different from normal gamers?
Heck, I play smartphone games in my commute and I'm pretty sure i'm not the only one.
I cited a report and the US Census to support my argument. If you have anything other than 'you are wrong cause I SAY SO!' than I am happy to listen to them.
Saying 'This report is bad cause MMO playerbase are different!' is irrelevant when all you have is 'cause my kid brother next door plays and he is only 10 / 20 / 30 / 40 years old!'
This is a valid nitpick. MMORPG Gamers are a sub-set of the Gamer population. Furthermore, some MMORPG Gamers are exclusively play MMORPGs, and some of them play other types of games. It is entirely feasible that MOBA players are on average younger than MMORPG players. It's also feasible that MMORPG players are on average the same as gamers in general.
Knowing the average age of gamers does not tell us the average age of MMORPG players. It doesn't matter where the information comes from, because the information doesn't apply to the group of people you are applying it to, but to the parent group they are a part of.
Yes, MMORPG players who keep playing MMORPGs are getting older. Of course they are. But new players are entering the genre all the time. Yes, the average gamer is 30 something years old. What percentage of them are MMORPG players? What percentage of them are married? What percentage of them are playing games with their kids, or buying games for their kids? Their children are the new players entering the market. Your assessment that people with a family and children aren't going to spend four hours a night in raids is perfectly feasible, but the same could be said about people returning to school to finish a degree they never finished.
So, Plausible, but not Proven.
Precisely. I said just that in a previous post, citing the article to back up my statements. It was largely ignored, which didn't surprise me. According to that data, RPGers (specifically, those in a persistent multiplayer universe) represent a small portion of the overall data upon which the article based its conclusions.
Is it possible MMO gamers adhere to the average? Sure. Is there anything here reasonably guaranteeing it? No. Not by any standardized methods used to study statistics, anyways.
Originally posted by jpnz The aim of this thread was an observation that the players preference on grouping or not is irrelevant. 'Baby crying' or equivalent will override any entertainment activity for the majority of people now. This isn't the mmos fault. Players grew up and their lives changed.
The majority ain't 20-something anymore.
JPNZ,
I'm not sure if your contention is well support by statistical evidence or not. You seem to be mostly projecting your own personal situation upon the entire gaming public as a whole.
I can tell your approach is not very data driven simply by the terms you are using.... "majority of the player base".... Player base of what? "Games", "Online Games", "MMO's" and where "North America", "Asia" "Global"..... Statistics will vary significantly based upon what you are choosing as your subject pool. It also is not very surprising to know that such general numbers over very wide and diverse categories of games are difficult and expensive to get....even for companies that do it proffesionaly....and are prone to sampling and weighting errors... and not generaly published to the public, as such research is a vaulable tool.
Secondly, you haven't even defined the demographic categories you are using.... which leads to the third problem in your contention. I believe you are missusing the term "Majority".... unless you mean that 51 percent or higher of the gaming populace is exactly 31 years of age with young children and no child care or ability to trade off child care between spouses..... you probably mean "plurality" instead, which is "largest group of a number of groups".
But even here it's not really all that important.....as not every game is going to court the same exact auduence demographic.
Study of what? What Data Pool, What were the demographic categories, what was the sampling methodologies and weighting done?
If the 2010 study is the same "Nick Yee" one that is being referenced then it's s study of ONE specific MMO based on self-reporting of a very small sample size by one individual broken into the US region with no reporting of how it was weighted to insure it was even representative of that MMO's own player-base (which they really couldn't have done because they only have direct info on payers not players) with no mention of demographic categories....and even it used the term "average" not "majority"... the two are not interchangable you know?
And even that one does not support your contention that the average are "parents"....let alone "parents of young children"
How is this supposed to be extraplotated across some larger data pool then the one sampled?
You are engaging in a classic case of garbage in, garbage out as far as real data goes....and use of anecdotal.
I'll agree that many games SEEM to have reduced the amount and length of group content... but that's anecdotal as well.... and even as such, it doesn't tell us WHY they think thier users preferences seem to drive towards that.
Trying to claim it is because of your specific situation.... is a huge leap of speculation with no real underlying evidence to support that other then "well that's how it is for me".
Originally posted by jpnz In the 2005 study by Daedalus project it was found to be 26. The 2010 study has the age at 29. In 2014 what do you think the age will be?
well if it's quadratic...35. if it's linear, 32. if it's exponential, not enough data.
let me ask you this, in 2030 what do you think it'll be? 40s? 50? 70? or 30?
yes, i know, 2030 we'll all have flying cars and be integrated into the matrix....but really.
In general not enough data.
All I see is 2005, good economy, parents do not have their kids working..
2009 shit economy parents need their kids working.. higher age.
I have no proof to back that, but do you have proof that can tell me otherwise?
Too many variables to accurately guess.
Birth rates, death rates, etc... until you provide enough data the 2014 data, 2015 data 2016 data can change dramatically in either direction.
People who can commit to the '3-4 hours raiding 3 times a week' are decreasing.
Where are they going?
World population is increasing year after year. Why is the MMO playerbase aging and shrinking instead of expanding and diversifying?
Because the 3-4 hour raid isn't part of how today's generation does anything. It has nothing to do with short attention spans, instant gratification or any of the other talking points that get regurgitated here by the crusty old MMOGeriatrics.
Their generation is used to having immediate access because that tech is part of their world and has been since they started using technology. In the time it takes to do a raid from prep to finish they could have checked Facebook, posted a bunch of photos to instagram/pintrest/tumblr/etc, sent and receive 30 text messages, and played a game of League of Legends.
MMOs are a waste of their time.
Exactly. I can look at my kids and the kids of my friends and none of them play MMOs. They're just not interested. They have other things to do, other games to play that interest them and MMOs just aren't part of their world. Of course, that's a small sample size but it seems to be validated by the demographic data, the age of MMO players is going up, not down, even as the population of the planet increases.
People need to accept the world as it is, not as they wish it was.
Originally posted by jpnz Apparently group activites aren't decreasing. They just seem to. So I guess all the bitter vets of 'mmo should be about groups!' can rest easy now.
Not sure how well that'll go for you 'Grumpymel2'.
And I would really question that statement. I'd like to see it broken down, I want to see how many people are voluntarily grouping pre-end-game and how much of that is rading and end-game-mandatory grouping. I'm willing to bet the lion's share is end-game where people have no choice.
Originally posted by jpnz Apparently group activites aren't decreasing. They just seem to. So I guess all the bitter vets of 'mmo should be about groups!' can rest easy now.
Not sure how well that'll go for you 'Grumpymel2'.
JPNZ,
I think you mistake me a little bit here. I'm not trying to be a jerk about this. Even though I prefer colobrative play options when I play games, that doesn't mean that I think every game should focus on that, or even most games. I don't think or argue that every game should be X ....... fill in whatever you want for X...... It just shouldn't be the exact same thing as every other game out there.
However when you take your own life experience at this point in time and project it onto the "majority" of people out there and try to put foward the arguement that X doesn't work for you, personaly that must mean it doesn't work for others..... well that simply doesn't fly in an objective sense, it's purely anecdotal and specific to your condition.
Do very young children demand alot of time and immediate attention? Yes they do. I remember when our was an infant/toddler how that worked. We still arranged that each of us could get a few hours of uninterrupted personal time for freinds or hobbies every couple weeks by trading off duties....and child care every once inawhile so we could have uninterrupted personal time. Obviously that means neither of us had as MUCH uninterrupted time as we did before we were parents but we still arranged for some. Here is a secret though...that constant demand for immediate attention doesn't last much beyond the infant/toddler stage. It gets less and less as the kids get older.... by the time they are teenagers, you'll be after them for thier attention not the other way around..... and at some point they'll move out and your wife and you will be scratching your heads about what to do with all that free time. That's just the way it tends to work. I've seen it with alot of folks (again anecdotal).
The other thing you need to realize is that when you are actualy trying to be data driven.... you really need to understand the quality and limitations of the data you are dealing with.... if you are trying to make an arguement on that basis. Comparing apples to oranges isn't going to get you accurate results, nor is limited sampling. Trying to understand who is using these sorts of services is a HUGE problem that even the companies who study such data professionaly struggle with and they throw a ton of resources at it. Companies that run such services have a tough time understanding who uses thier own services let alone anyone elses.
It's basicaly impossible to determine definitively what the real world identity of a person using an online service is. Absent some sort of biometric device on the users computer tied to an access token that's been issued at a real world physical location that the user must have presented themselves at... you really don't know who is at the keyboard, just who they claim to be. Depending upon the payment method, you can get SOME information about the PAYER (not neccesarly the player) but even there you want get alot of usefull demographic information...because the CC company isn't going to give you that info. On an individual basis....you can maybe do some detective work and use other resources to dig into it, but no way that works on a bulk level. You can study every minute detail about what they actualy DO on your service...but who they really are when they step away from the keyboard...you just don't know. Everything else will rely on self-reporting. The problem is self-reporting has UNKOWN biases.... both on who chooses to participate and whether they are giving you factual information. Because the biases are unkown, you can adjust for them.... you can't even really say what your margin of error is. Most companies don't even bother with trying to figure out a way to examine them. Do you begin to understand?
Originally posted by jpnz So we are back to 'you can't trust this data cause -reasons-' gotcha.
I'd rather believe things like the official US census over your assertion. No offense.
It has nothing to do with trusting the data, we just don't have enough information to know what the data actually shows. So either you want to know the truth, or you just want to take the first promising glimmer and run with it, whether it's true or not.
Grouping has decreased and is now confined to end game, with a few occasions on the way there.
As to the data, the US census and the data we get about MMO's are not exactly on a par. I would trust your census, but take everything that comes from companies with a pinch of salt. It is good business to massage facts up to a point, so it is natural that companies do this.
Originally posted by jpnz So we are back to 'you can't trust this data cause -reasons-' gotcha.
I'd rather believe things like the official US census over your assertion. No offense.
The US census hires people to go door to door and count the number of heads they see. It also uses things like official records for which there are legal penalties for falsifying.... and it ties people to real world physical addresses.
This is night and day from what online services can do. When was the last time you had someone from Blizzard ring your doorbell to check that you were a 30 something guy rather then a 12 year old girl?
Even with everything the US census does to try to insure it gets accurate information... it also has serious problems trying to report on some groups. For example, it has difficulty reporting accurate information on groups of people who aren't supposed to legaly be in the country..... because alot of them go out of thier way to avoid being counted.
The degree of trust we can place upon data is proportional to the quality of the collection methods for that data and application of that data to what we are studying.
If you went into your backyard with an accurate thermometer every day last year and recorded the temperature at 9:00 AM... then we could trust what the average daily temperature in your backyard at 9:00 AM was for last year. If your grandma called you a few times last year and told you she was cold....we couldn't trust that to indicate the world was experiencing "global cooling".
Originally posted by MadFrenchie You're trolling at this point. It's been explained multiple times. You ignore those posts and repeat the exact same thing.
Thank you for the wonderful insight and contribution to this thread. /sarcasm
I will admit I had way too many people say 'group content isn't decreasing! / US census data can not be trusted / I am not part of the majority so it doesn't exists' so I might have missed some.
What's funny is that by the logic of this thread, MMO group content should be increasing but that's not what we see posted on this site.
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
And again, you completely miss the point that I and many other posters have been trying to convey in numerous ways.
I've already given my wonderful insight and made a contribution using the same data you did. You ignored it because it wasn't easy to troll. Or because you couldn't be bothered to think critically about what I said. Either way, I won't say it again.
Originally posted by MadFrenchie And again, you completely miss the point that I and many other posters have been trying to convey in numerous ways.
I've already given my wonderful insight and made a contribution using the same data you did. You ignored it because it wasn't easy to troll. Or because you couldn't be bothered to think critically about what I said. Either way, I won't say it again.
Lets say you are right and I'm wrong. That the US Census somehow got it totally wrong. (Lets ignore how we would have a much larger problem than "MMOs" if this is true)
Group content works for the majority of players and players play them.
Why is it that everyday, we see 'Group content is decreasing in MMOs!' / 'LFG are the devil' threads on this site?
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Comments
They do have multiplayer content, you're just defining it wrong. Look at all those people that you can play in the same world with. That's multiplayer.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
I can remember plenty of times when I'd be out grinding in the wilderness, I'd run across someone else doing the same thing and we'd end up grinding content together. We were never a group, we never even talked to each other, but we could go after harder mobs by working together so we did that for a while, until one of us decided to go off on our own again. It was natural and organic and didn't require any programmed mechanics. I'd much prefer playing a game like that than one where you have to fit into a structured environment.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Gamers are gamers.
Do you believe the age spread of casual gamers are different from normal gamers?
Heck, I play smartphone games in my commute and I'm pretty sure i'm not the only one.
I cited a report and the US Census to support my argument. If you have anything other than 'you are wrong cause I SAY SO!' than I am happy to listen to them.
Saying 'This report is bad cause MMO playerbase are different!' is irrelevant when all you have is 'cause my kid brother next door plays and he is only 10 / 20 / 30 / 40 years old!'
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
'The increase in bite sized content (whether it is group or solo) is due to the increase in the age of MMO players' is pretty much my thread. Raiding / Fixed scheduled group content is all doable (LFR / LFG) if it is 'bite sized'. I see bite sized as 20-40mins but that will depend on one's preference and game.
Wailing about how MMOs should be about group content goes against what the playerbase will do. Does the playerbase want group content? That's an irrelevant question as what the playerbase 'want' is different from what they will 'do'.
I am a bit wary that this thread is getting a bit too close to the 'Group vs Solo' sticky though. >.>
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
This is a valid nitpick. MMORPG Gamers are a sub-set of the Gamer population. Furthermore, some MMORPG Gamers are exclusively play MMORPGs, and some of them play other types of games. It is entirely feasible that MOBA players are on average younger than MMORPG players. It's also feasible that MMORPG players are on average the same as gamers in general.
Knowing the average age of gamers does not tell us the average age of MMORPG players. It doesn't matter where the information comes from, because the information doesn't apply to the group of people you are applying it to, but to the parent group they are a part of.
Yes, MMORPG players who keep playing MMORPGs are getting older. Of course they are. But new players are entering the genre all the time. Yes, the average gamer is 30 something years old. What percentage of them are MMORPG players? What percentage of them are married? What percentage of them are playing games with their kids, or buying games for their kids? Their children are the new players entering the market. Your assessment that people with a family and children aren't going to spend four hours a night in raids is perfectly feasible, but the same could be said about people returning to school to finish a degree they never finished.
So, Plausible, but not Proven.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
According to Nick Yee in 2010 for WoW players
US: Female age 32 yrs, male age 29 yrs, 47% were single, 25% were parents. 53% had fulltime job.
The study is the most comprehensive I could find and with 2071 US players answering its a good representation of players and he has done those kinds of studies plenty of times.
Because the 3-4 hour raid isn't part of how today's generation does anything. It has nothing to do with short attention spans, instant gratification or any of the other talking points that get regurgitated here by the crusty old MMOGeriatrics.
Their generation is used to having immediate access because that tech is part of their world and has been since they started using technology. In the time it takes to do a raid from prep to finish they could have checked Facebook, posted a bunch of photos to instagram/pintrest/tumblr/etc, sent and receive 30 text messages, and played a game of League of Legends.
MMOs are a waste of their time.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Gamers are gamers.
Do you believe the age spread of casual gamers are different from normal gamers?
Heck, I play smartphone games in my commute and I'm pretty sure i'm not the only one.
I cited a report and the US Census to support my argument. If you have anything other than 'you are wrong cause I SAY SO!' than I am happy to listen to them.
Saying 'This report is bad cause MMO playerbase are different!' is irrelevant when all you have is 'cause my kid brother next door plays and he is only 10 / 20 / 30 / 40 years old!'
This is a valid nitpick. MMORPG Gamers are a sub-set of the Gamer population. Furthermore, some MMORPG Gamers are exclusively play MMORPGs, and some of them play other types of games. It is entirely feasible that MOBA players are on average younger than MMORPG players. It's also feasible that MMORPG players are on average the same as gamers in general.
Knowing the average age of gamers does not tell us the average age of MMORPG players. It doesn't matter where the information comes from, because the information doesn't apply to the group of people you are applying it to, but to the parent group they are a part of.
Yes, MMORPG players who keep playing MMORPGs are getting older. Of course they are. But new players are entering the genre all the time. Yes, the average gamer is 30 something years old. What percentage of them are MMORPG players? What percentage of them are married? What percentage of them are playing games with their kids, or buying games for their kids? Their children are the new players entering the market. Your assessment that people with a family and children aren't going to spend four hours a night in raids is perfectly feasible, but the same could be said about people returning to school to finish a degree they never finished.
So, Plausible, but not Proven.
Precisely. I said just that in a previous post, citing the article to back up my statements. It was largely ignored, which didn't surprise me. According to that data, RPGers (specifically, those in a persistent multiplayer universe) represent a small portion of the overall data upon which the article based its conclusions.Is it possible MMO gamers adhere to the average? Sure. Is there anything here reasonably guaranteeing it? No. Not by any standardized methods used to study statistics, anyways.
JPNZ,
I'm not sure if your contention is well support by statistical evidence or not. You seem to be mostly projecting your own personal situation upon the entire gaming public as a whole.
I can tell your approach is not very data driven simply by the terms you are using.... "majority of the player base".... Player base of what? "Games", "Online Games", "MMO's" and where "North America", "Asia" "Global"..... Statistics will vary significantly based upon what you are choosing as your subject pool. It also is not very surprising to know that such general numbers over very wide and diverse categories of games are difficult and expensive to get....even for companies that do it proffesionaly....and are prone to sampling and weighting errors... and not generaly published to the public, as such research is a vaulable tool.
Secondly, you haven't even defined the demographic categories you are using.... which leads to the third problem in your contention. I believe you are missusing the term "Majority".... unless you mean that 51 percent or higher of the gaming populace is exactly 31 years of age with young children and no child care or ability to trade off child care between spouses..... you probably mean "plurality" instead, which is "largest group of a number of groups".
But even here it's not really all that important.....as not every game is going to court the same exact auduence demographic.
The 2010 study has the age at 29.
In 2014 what do you think the age will be?
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Study of what? What Data Pool, What were the demographic categories, what was the sampling methodologies and weighting done?
If the 2010 study is the same "Nick Yee" one that is being referenced then it's s study of ONE specific MMO based on self-reporting of a very small sample size by one individual broken into the US region with no reporting of how it was weighted to insure it was even representative of that MMO's own player-base (which they really couldn't have done because they only have direct info on payers not players) with no mention of demographic categories....and even it used the term "average" not "majority"... the two are not interchangable you know?
And even that one does not support your contention that the average are "parents"....let alone "parents of young children"
How is this supposed to be extraplotated across some larger data pool then the one sampled?
You are engaging in a classic case of garbage in, garbage out as far as real data goes....and use of anecdotal.
I'll agree that many games SEEM to have reduced the amount and length of group content... but that's anecdotal as well.... and even as such, it doesn't tell us WHY they think thier users preferences seem to drive towards that.
Trying to claim it is because of your specific situation.... is a huge leap of speculation with no real underlying evidence to support that other then "well that's how it is for me".
In general not enough data.
All I see is 2005, good economy, parents do not have their kids working..
2009 shit economy parents need their kids working.. higher age.
I have no proof to back that, but do you have proof that can tell me otherwise?
Too many variables to accurately guess.
Birth rates, death rates, etc... until you provide enough data the 2014 data, 2015 data 2016 data can change dramatically in either direction.
Not sure how well that'll go for you 'Grumpymel2'.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Exactly. I can look at my kids and the kids of my friends and none of them play MMOs. They're just not interested. They have other things to do, other games to play that interest them and MMOs just aren't part of their world. Of course, that's a small sample size but it seems to be validated by the demographic data, the age of MMO players is going up, not down, even as the population of the planet increases.
People need to accept the world as it is, not as they wish it was.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
And I would really question that statement. I'd like to see it broken down, I want to see how many people are voluntarily grouping pre-end-game and how much of that is rading and end-game-mandatory grouping. I'm willing to bet the lion's share is end-game where people have no choice.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
JPNZ,
I think you mistake me a little bit here. I'm not trying to be a jerk about this. Even though I prefer colobrative play options when I play games, that doesn't mean that I think every game should focus on that, or even most games. I don't think or argue that every game should be X ....... fill in whatever you want for X...... It just shouldn't be the exact same thing as every other game out there.
However when you take your own life experience at this point in time and project it onto the "majority" of people out there and try to put foward the arguement that X doesn't work for you, personaly that must mean it doesn't work for others..... well that simply doesn't fly in an objective sense, it's purely anecdotal and specific to your condition.
Do very young children demand alot of time and immediate attention? Yes they do. I remember when our was an infant/toddler how that worked. We still arranged that each of us could get a few hours of uninterrupted personal time for freinds or hobbies every couple weeks by trading off duties....and child care every once inawhile so we could have uninterrupted personal time. Obviously that means neither of us had as MUCH uninterrupted time as we did before we were parents but we still arranged for some. Here is a secret though...that constant demand for immediate attention doesn't last much beyond the infant/toddler stage. It gets less and less as the kids get older.... by the time they are teenagers, you'll be after them for thier attention not the other way around..... and at some point they'll move out and your wife and you will be scratching your heads about what to do with all that free time. That's just the way it tends to work. I've seen it with alot of folks (again anecdotal).
The other thing you need to realize is that when you are actualy trying to be data driven.... you really need to understand the quality and limitations of the data you are dealing with.... if you are trying to make an arguement on that basis. Comparing apples to oranges isn't going to get you accurate results, nor is limited sampling. Trying to understand who is using these sorts of services is a HUGE problem that even the companies who study such data professionaly struggle with and they throw a ton of resources at it. Companies that run such services have a tough time understanding who uses thier own services let alone anyone elses.
It's basicaly impossible to determine definitively what the real world identity of a person using an online service is. Absent some sort of biometric device on the users computer tied to an access token that's been issued at a real world physical location that the user must have presented themselves at... you really don't know who is at the keyboard, just who they claim to be. Depending upon the payment method, you can get SOME information about the PAYER (not neccesarly the player) but even there you want get alot of usefull demographic information...because the CC company isn't going to give you that info. On an individual basis....you can maybe do some detective work and use other resources to dig into it, but no way that works on a bulk level. You can study every minute detail about what they actualy DO on your service...but who they really are when they step away from the keyboard...you just don't know. Everything else will rely on self-reporting. The problem is self-reporting has UNKOWN biases.... both on who chooses to participate and whether they are giving you factual information. Because the biases are unkown, you can adjust for them.... you can't even really say what your margin of error is. Most companies don't even bother with trying to figure out a way to examine them. Do you begin to understand?
I'd rather believe things like the official US census over your assertion. No offense.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
It has nothing to do with trusting the data, we just don't have enough information to know what the data actually shows. So either you want to know the truth, or you just want to take the first promising glimmer and run with it, whether it's true or not.
I pick the former.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Grouping has decreased and is now confined to end game, with a few occasions on the way there.
As to the data, the US census and the data we get about MMO's are not exactly on a par. I would trust your census, but take everything that comes from companies with a pinch of salt. It is good business to massage facts up to a point, so it is natural that companies do this.
The US census hires people to go door to door and count the number of heads they see. It also uses things like official records for which there are legal penalties for falsifying.... and it ties people to real world physical addresses.
This is night and day from what online services can do. When was the last time you had someone from Blizzard ring your doorbell to check that you were a 30 something guy rather then a 12 year old girl?
Even with everything the US census does to try to insure it gets accurate information... it also has serious problems trying to report on some groups. For example, it has difficulty reporting accurate information on groups of people who aren't supposed to legaly be in the country..... because alot of them go out of thier way to avoid being counted.
The degree of trust we can place upon data is proportional to the quality of the collection methods for that data and application of that data to what we are studying.
If you went into your backyard with an accurate thermometer every day last year and recorded the temperature at 9:00 AM... then we could trust what the average daily temperature in your backyard at 9:00 AM was for last year. If your grandma called you a few times last year and told you she was cold....we couldn't trust that to indicate the world was experiencing "global cooling".
I don't agree with that opinion but hey believe whatever you wish.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Thank you for the wonderful insight and contribution to this thread. /sarcasm
I will admit I had way too many people say 'group content isn't decreasing! / US census data can not be trusted / I am not part of the majority so it doesn't exists' so I might have missed some.
What's funny is that by the logic of this thread, MMO group content should be increasing but that's not what we see posted on this site.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
I've already given my wonderful insight and made a contribution using the same data you did. You ignored it because it wasn't easy to troll. Or because you couldn't be bothered to think critically about what I said. Either way, I won't say it again.
Lets say you are right and I'm wrong. That the US Census somehow got it totally wrong. (Lets ignore how we would have a much larger problem than "MMOs" if this is true)
Group content works for the majority of players and players play them.
Why is it that everyday, we see 'Group content is decreasing in MMOs!' / 'LFG are the devil' threads on this site?
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.