However that line about "EQNext has been in front of you the entire time in form of Landmark" was also followed later with "We've been really busy with Landmark" - which means 90% of their EQNext Dev was all focused on Landmark.
So if the crafting team is working on crafting in Landmark, that has no impact on crafting in EQN? Or the combat team. Or the cave/tier team. Or the gear team? Or the AI team? Or the ...... While I'd hope/assume that all these systems will be a bit more substantial in EQN, Landmark's shouldn't be completely different.
So for the last year its all been mostly Landmark work - EQNext dev was minimal at best and it showed - dark elves and couple of classes thrown together in super rough state for the sake of SoE Live - shown in a video, not even playable.
Did you watch the Landmark keynote and see combat, gear, skills working? You can't believe that what was shown in the EQN class/combat scenes wasn't the same system just being filmed from afar? Seriously?
Did you notice that they filmed the combat/classes so they could go step by step and explain what was going on?
Could they have lived demoed it? Probably, they did last year. Does it prove the game isn't playable? For me it would only be if you some how think classes-gear-skills-combat work completely different than Landmark on the basic level. Which you might, but seems odd knowing what we do of how the two relate.
Only thing they didn't show "playable" is the AI. Still looked like dummy spawned NPCs to one shot, just like last year. Beyond that, combat/skills seemed fully functional, although probably not 100% complete.
I assume they simply don't know what they are talking about and or haven't been following EQN.
Anyone that has been following the game should know that both games share devs and assets, obviously some aren't getting it.
Beyond some of the non-fantasy items, everything else directly relates to EQN. Damn SOE for spending time making Scifi clothing! You've pushed EQN back another year!
Dave is as bad as Smedly. Smedly gives the grand false vision, and Dave's lying ass sells it. I can't believe anything coming out this division unless I can see it being played. I can't believe how much this past year of EQN "development" has soured me on SOE and even more so this Everquest team.
I'm sorry OP. I was excited about new info too. I saw the way they just change up and edit out though. It means nothing.
Two questions.
Do you blindly believe what other devs say without showing proof?
Why are you following a game that is far from release if you don't believe what they are saying?
1. I wouldn't call it blindly, but tend to believe what they tell me about their product until I see otherwise. I think that is why this one really burned me.
2. I was/am following it solely off the strength of Planetside 2 and it's development process, the path it took.
Dave is as bad as Smedly. Smedly gives the grand false vision, and Dave's lying ass sells it. I can't believe anything coming out this division unless I can see it being played. I can't believe how much this past year of EQN "development" has soured me on SOE and even more so this Everquest team.
I'm sorry OP. I was excited about new info too. I saw the way they just change up and edit out though. It means nothing.
Two questions.
Do you blindly believe what other devs say without showing proof?
Why are you following a game that is far from release if you don't believe what they are saying?
1. I wouldn't call it blindly, but tend to believe what they tell me about their product until I see otherwise. I think that is why this one really burned me.
2. I was/am following it solely off the strength of Planetside 2 and it's development process, the path it took.
Ah, thanks, just curious. Seems many have really bad histories with SOE and can't let it go and are as blinded by anger as some of us are blinded by hope.
For me, SOE isn't perfect, but honestly I care more about the present and the future. They've handled Landmark very well in my book and EQN hopefully follows.
What they are doing has never been done before that I know of. Including PS2. The entire approach to design and community involvement is new for this type of game and I'm sorry that so many are missing out because of past issues or lack of faith.
To each their own, but my advice for anyone that doesn't believe or what not, pay as little attention as possible until it at least goes into Alpha/Beta. Anything beforehand is going to be lacking.
I think we have become spoiled with companies releasing details so early. Before it was a few in closed beta, more in open, then release. There wasn't this huge push, years in advance or through the entire design process. Early access and smaller games started it and now big names are jumping on.
Before people would complain about Betas being full of bugs, now people are complaining that concepts aren't completed or basic features haven't been shown off yet.
Dave is as bad as Smedly. Smedly gives the grand false vision, and Dave's lying ass sells it. I can't believe anything coming out this division unless I can see it being played. I can't believe how much this past year of EQN "development" has soured me on SOE and even more so this Everquest team.
I'm sorry OP. I was excited about new info too. I saw the way they just change up and edit out though. It means nothing.
Two questions.
Do you blindly believe what other devs say without showing proof?
Why are you following a game that is far from release if you don't believe what they are saying?
1. I wouldn't call it blindly, but tend to believe what they tell me about their product until I see otherwise. I think that is why this one really burned me.
2. I was/am following it solely off the strength of Planetside 2 and it's development process, the path it took.
Ah, thanks, just curious. Seems many have really bad histories with SOE and can't let it go and are as blinded by anger as some of us are blinded by hope.
For me, SOE isn't perfect, but honestly I care more about the present and the future. They've handled Landmark very well in my book and EQN hopefully follows.
What they are doing has never been done before that I know of. Including PS2. The entire approach to design and community involvement is new for this type of game and I'm sorry that so many are missing out because of past issues or lack of faith.
To each their own, but my advice for anyone that doesn't believe or what not, pay as little attention as possible until it at least goes into Alpha/Beta. Anything beforehand is going to be lacking.
I think we have become spoiled with companies releasing details so early. Before it was a few in closed beta, more in open, then release. There wasn't this huge push, years in advance or through the entire design process. Early access and smaller games started it and now big names are jumping on.
Before people would complain about Betas being full of bugs, now people are complaining that concepts aren't completed or basic features haven't been shown off yet.
Allein..
There is nothing wrong with people being pessimistic and guarded.. Life experiences has taught us that.. It doesn't matter if we are talking about a computer game or investment banking.. Life teaches us very fast that being gullible and naive will leave you vulnerable and open to be taken advantage of.. It's a dog eat dog world out there, especially in the corporate setting where peoples paychecks and livings are reliant upon consumer confidence and hope..
Now when it comes to SOE and gaming.. Some of us remember quite well who it was that SOLD an expansion, knowing damn well, NGE was already in the pipe and coming.. Talk about pure greed and BS.. SOE owns that reputation.. I know many that were pissed to buy the expansion, only for it to useless in a short time when NGE rolled out.. As for gaming in general, most of us heard all the hype about Bioware's 4th pillar.. A revolutionary change in MMO'ing as we know it, as we were told to believe by everyone in the pipe, including all the gaming website news dot coms.. GW2 was suppose to be a game changer as well..
Hyping, believe and hoping for the 2nd coming of a water walking deity is ok if that is what you want.. However, let others believe what they want as well.. Just because someone tells me "I love you" doesn't mean they really do, or that it will last.. This reminds me of one of Jimmy Buffet's song, "A permanent reminder of a temporary feeling"..
Yeah a shit ton of work that Landmark currently doesn't even touch.
You list a lot of things and assume they haven't already been working on these things for a long time now. Every game dev knows tool creation and engine development is what takes the most time when creating a game. Nothing you stated suggests they need more than year to finish up. Especially for a large company like SOE that has a huge amount of money and resources at their disposal.
But they are creating two separate games; two separate MMO titles. So, I can only assume that both will take longer, because of manpower being split up. I will say again that both are using the same/similar assets and that will be extremely useful to speed up production with Next once Landmark is finished.
Why do you assume that they "split up manpower"? SOE is a large company with good financial backing. More than likely they have 2 full teams working on both games at the same time and on top of this are sharing the same engine and a host of assets between each other, which would mean they could make 2 games in less time than it takes 2 different companies to make 2 separate games of comparable size and scope.
The rest is just iterations on already existing system: crafting 2.0, guild 2.0, cave 2.0, islands 2.0, more biomes, new character creator/system, combat 2.0, etc.
Some of these are probably done in their dev systems and has been for a while. They are not in the game yet, because stuff like caves, islands 2.0 and new character system would require a wipe and they want to limit how many of those they do. They are probably going to wait for all the systems that require a wipe to reach level 2.0 before doing it.
Yeah a shit ton of work that Landmark currently doesn't even touch.
You list a lot of things and assume they haven't already been working on these things for a long time now. Every game dev knows tool creation and engine development is what takes the most time when creating a game. Nothing you stated suggests they need more than year to finish up. Especially for a large company like SOE that has a huge amount of money and resources at their disposal.
But they are creating two separate games; two separate MMO titles. So, I can only assume that both will take longer, because of manpower being split up. I will say again that both are using the same/similar assets and that will be extremely useful to speed up production with Next once Landmark is finished.
Why do you assume that they "split up manpower"? SOE is a large company with good financial backing. More than likely they have 2 full teams working on both games at the same time and on top of this are sharing the same engine and a host of assets between each other, which would mean they could make 2 games in less time than it takes 2 different companies to make 2 separate games of comparable size and scope.
Mmm, thats a fair point I didn't consider.
They did split up the man power but not really. Was 1 team working on EQN and then they added Landmark and the team working on EQN also started working on Landmark. As was stated by EQ insider Tenma, the dev team said that unless its a tool to make EQN its on the back burner for Landmark. If its a system thats going into EQN then they will add it to Landmark. So the combat system in Landmark is the backbone of EQN combat system so it was added. Water and day night cycles are the same in both games so they got added to Landmark. As started by Tenma, Landmark will get more of its own toys when EQN is done.
So the content in Landmark helps us know where EQN is by what toys it currently has.
Originally posted by DMKano Without Landmark there is no EQNext - SoE has been clear about this from the start.
SoE needs players to build assets for EQNext because that was their plan for Landmark.
Get the tools out to the community, have style guidelines set (example Dark Elf city) and let players design it according to SoE guidelines.
However that line about "EQNext has been in front of you the entire time in form of Landmark" was also followed later with "We've been really busy with Landmark" - which means 90% of their EQNext Dev was all focused on Landmark.
So for the last year its all been mostly Landmark work - EQNext dev was minimal at best and it showed - dark elves and couple of classes thrown together in super rough state for the sake of SoE Live - shown in a video, not even playable.
So again they've been working on Landmark as that is the building tool for EQNext.
Actual work of EQNext *in my opinion* was minimal at best - I am not buying the 60% done line for one second.
That to me sounds like pure damage control.
Again all of this is 100% my opinion.
I think you over estimate how much gap there is between Landmark and EQN.
Whats landmark? its an eqn without the "Scripted" content, butterfly effect ai and minor systems.
Landmark is the bulk of EQN.
Oh man - no, EQNext is planned to have systems that currently do not exist in Landmark period.
NPCs tied into Storybricks - HUGE part of EQnext and pretty major undertaking.
Classes finished with all skill systems, animations, effects, sounds, voices.
NPCs finished with animations, effects/sounds
Spawn/pathing systems for NPCs - will have to tie into Storybricks as well
Itemization for the entire game - massive undertaking from assets to graphics for each class
Lore, stories, voiceovers (to whatever extent small or big) have to be done
Dynamic event systems - yeah massive undertaking
Class balancing
PvP skill balancing
Dungeon creation and placement within Voxels worlds
How about scalability of max number of players per location in the world with destructible environment? What happens 200 players all start blowing stuff up at the same time?
Client / Server performance tuning and optimization
Console support (PS4)
And that's is just the tip of the iceberg
Yeah a shit ton of work that Landmark currently doesn't even touch.
I didn't know we had game developers and programmers here in the mmorpg.com forums. Amazing that you seem to know exactly what needs to be done and in some cases know just how much work it'll actually be. Truly amazing.
My point here is that, a lot of people/players make claims along the lines of your post. In fact some would even go as far as to speak as if they could do it better or how it should be done with little to no actually game development experience or knowledge of game development theory. if you aren't on the dev team or actually work for the company how could you make such a bold claim of this is what they need to do, and this is how long and how it's a "massive under-taking." You can't say for certain. I've read and will dig up the numerous articles that actually make it borderline confusing about EQN and Landmark and how they are going to be so similar that it almost seems like 2 MMOs. For the longest time I actually thought Sony had to balls to put out Landmark and after it was all done, re-brand it as EQN.
Originally posted by DMKano Without Landmark there is no EQNext - SoE has been clear about this from the start.
SoE needs players to build assets for EQNext because that was their plan for Landmark.
Get the tools out to the community, have style guidelines set (example Dark Elf city) and let players design it according to SoE guidelines.
However that line about "EQNext has been in front of you the entire time in form of Landmark" was also followed later with "We've been really busy with Landmark" - which means 90% of their EQNext Dev was all focused on Landmark.
So for the last year its all been mostly Landmark work - EQNext dev was minimal at best and it showed - dark elves and couple of classes thrown together in super rough state for the sake of SoE Live - shown in a video, not even playable.
So again they've been working on Landmark as that is the building tool for EQNext.
Actual work of EQNext *in my opinion* was minimal at best - I am not buying the 60% done line for one second.
That to me sounds like pure damage control.
Again all of this is 100% my opinion.
I think you over estimate how much gap there is between Landmark and EQN.
Whats landmark? its an eqn without the "Scripted" content, butterfly effect ai and minor systems.
Landmark is the bulk of EQN.
Oh man - no, EQNext is planned to have systems that currently do not exist in Landmark period.
NPCs tied into Storybricks - HUGE part of EQnext and pretty major undertaking.
Classes finished with all skill systems, animations, effects, sounds, voices.
NPCs finished with animations, effects/sounds
Spawn/pathing systems for NPCs - will have to tie into Storybricks as well
Itemization for the entire game - massive undertaking from assets to graphics for each class
Lore, stories, voiceovers (to whatever extent small or big) have to be done
Dynamic event systems - yeah massive undertaking
Class balancing
PvP skill balancing
Dungeon creation and placement within Voxels worlds
How about scalability of max number of players per location in the world with destructible environment? What happens 200 players all start blowing stuff up at the same time?
Client / Server performance tuning and optimization
Console support (PS4)
And that's is just the tip of the iceberg
Yeah a shit ton of work that Landmark currently doesn't even touch.
I didn't know we had game developers and programmers here in the mmorpg.com forums. Amazing that you seem to know exactly what needs to be done and in some cases know just how much work it'll actually be. Truly amazing.
My point here is that, a lot of people/players make claims along the lines of your post. In fact some would even go as far as to speak as if they could do it better or how it should be done with little to no actually game development experience or knowledge of game development theory. if you aren't on the dev team or actually work for the company how could you make such a bold claim of this is what they need to do, and this is how long and how it's a "massive under-taking." You can't say for certain. I've read and will dig up the numerous articles that actually make it borderline confusing about EQN and Landmark and how they are going to be so similar that it almost seems like 2 MMOs. For the longest time I actually thought Sony had to balls to put out Landmark and after it was all done, re-brand it as EQN.
Oh it's far worst than that. Not only do they claim to be knowledgeable on game development in general. They also seem to profess this incredible insider knowledge about the development of EQN specifically. As if they're on the team, looking at all the assets and all the code and they know exactly what has been worked on already and precisely where they are in development.
Yet they're basing all that simply on what was shown in a 1 hour keynote at SOE Live.
Yeah a shit ton of work that Landmark currently doesn't even touch.
You list a lot of things and assume they haven't already been working on these things for a long time now. Every game dev knows tool creation and engine development is what takes the most time when creating a game. Nothing you stated suggests they need more than year to finish up. Especially for a large company like SOE that has a huge amount of money and resources at their disposal.
But they are creating two separate games; two separate MMO titles. So, I can only assume that both will take longer, because of manpower being split up. I will say again that both are using the same/similar assets and that will be extremely useful to speed up production with Next once Landmark is finished.
Why do you assume that they "split up manpower"? SOE is a large company with good financial backing. More than likely they have 2 full teams working on both games at the same time and on top of this are sharing the same engine and a host of assets between each other, which would mean they could make 2 games in less time than it takes 2 different companies to make 2 separate games of comparable size and scope.
Mmm, thats a fair point I didn't consider.
They did split up the man power but not really. Was 1 team working on EQN and then they added Landmark and the team working on EQN also started working on Landmark. As was stated by EQ insider Tenma, the dev team said that unless its a tool to make EQN its on the back burner for Landmark. If its a system thats going into EQN then they will add it to Landmark. So the combat system in Landmark is the backbone of EQN combat system so it was added. Water and day night cycles are the same in both games so they got added to Landmark. As started by Tenma, Landmark will get more of its own toys when EQN is done.
So the content in Landmark helps us know where EQN is by what toys it currently has.
That wasn't the point. With any project, you can literally have any number of people that you want.
You can have 1 programmers, 1 designer, 1 artist making Crysis 4 (sure, but it'll take 20 years to finish it lol). Or you can have 50 programmers, 29 designers, 50 artists and knock it out in a normal time frame. The more you throw at a project, the faster it can be finished.
You see this in action at "game jams" or any other development marathons where huge teams come together to collaborate. You throw together 50 people together to slam out a product that would otherwise have taken 2 or 3 people months to do, and you get it done in 1 weekend.
SOE has money and resources behind it. They decided to make 2 games at the same time. Both games share assets and help build one another, that's true enough, so they don't need a 1 to 1 ratio to tackle each game.
However, they probably did bring on more workers to help manage and create both games. Which was my point. They have the right team size to handle the load, is all I'm saying.
Dave is as bad as Smedly. Smedly gives the grand false vision, and Dave's lying ass sells it. I can't believe anything coming out this division unless I can see it being played. I can't believe how much this past year of EQN "development" has soured me on SOE and even more so this Everquest team.
I'm sorry OP. I was excited about new info too. I saw the way they just change up and edit out though. It means nothing.
Two questions.
Do you blindly believe what other devs say without showing proof?
Why are you following a game that is far from release if you don't believe what they are saying?
1. I wouldn't call it blindly, but tend to believe what they tell me about their product until I see otherwise. I think that is why this one really burned me.
2. I was/am following it solely off the strength of Planetside 2 and it's development process, the path it took.
Ah, thanks, just curious. Seems many have really bad histories with SOE and can't let it go and are as blinded by anger as some of us are blinded by hope.
For me, SOE isn't perfect, but honestly I care more about the present and the future. They've handled Landmark very well in my book and EQN hopefully follows.
What they are doing has never been done before that I know of. Including PS2. The entire approach to design and community involvement is new for this type of game and I'm sorry that so many are missing out because of past issues or lack of faith.
To each their own, but my advice for anyone that doesn't believe or what not, pay as little attention as possible until it at least goes into Alpha/Beta. Anything beforehand is going to be lacking.
I think we have become spoiled with companies releasing details so early. Before it was a few in closed beta, more in open, then release. There wasn't this huge push, years in advance or through the entire design process. Early access and smaller games started it and now big names are jumping on.
Before people would complain about Betas being full of bugs, now people are complaining that concepts aren't completed or basic features haven't been shown off yet.
Allein..
There is nothing wrong with people being pessimistic and guarded.. Life experiences has taught us that.. It doesn't matter if we are talking about a computer game or investment banking.. Life teaches us very fast that being gullible and naive will leave you vulnerable and open to be taken advantage of.. It's a dog eat dog world out there, especially in the corporate setting where peoples paychecks and livings are reliant upon consumer confidence and hope..
Now when it comes to SOE and gaming.. Some of us remember quite well who it was that SOLD an expansion, knowing damn well, NGE was already in the pipe and coming.. Talk about pure greed and BS.. SOE owns that reputation.. I know many that were pissed to buy the expansion, only for it to useless in a short time when NGE rolled out.. As for gaming in general, most of us heard all the hype about Bioware's 4th pillar.. A revolutionary change in MMO'ing as we know it, as we were told to believe by everyone in the pipe, including all the gaming website news dot coms.. GW2 was suppose to be a game changer as well..
Hyping, believe and hoping for the 2nd coming of a water walking deity is ok if that is what you want.. However, let others believe what they want as well.. Just because someone tells me "I love you" doesn't mean they really do, or that it will last.. This reminds me of one of Jimmy Buffet's song, "A permanent reminder of a temporary feeling"..
I totally get that. I've had ups and downs with various companies/games as well and that baggage is always in the back of my mind somewhere.
Doesn't mean I instantly dismiss something because "Oh it's SOE, they "lied to me years ago, EQN is made by liars!" or "NGE sucked NINE years ago, so EQN will be just the same."
Who develops a game is important, but in the end, it is the product that counts. If I hate Pizza Hut but they make the best pizza ever, I'm not going to skip it simply because they make it.
Life does teach us to learn from our mistakes or whatever, but I'd hope people have learned to have some hope/faith as well. Not blind, I believe it simply because someone said it, but at least based on some evidence.
They have shown evidence to back up what they've said. So far Landmark has almost been right on the money factoring in new discoveries and what not that have impacted development. Now if Landmark had been a train wreck for the last 8 months, then ya I would be very scared that EQN would follow, but so far the evidence is showing otherwise.
SOE can learn and improve. Seems PS2/DCUO have done well, so they at least have those genres going right. Hopefully they can use that momentum for EQN as well. Seems like a shift in company philosophy and it is working.
I never believe a game is going to be "a game changer" or a "wow killer". Games should simply be enjoyable on their own without having to be "better" than something else or whatever. EQN could come out and do 100% of what they've hyped and people can still prefer AOC or whatever.
Based on what I've seen, EQN looks good so far. I don't factor in any mysterious behind the scenes evil going on in the SOE studio that some do. Where they all sit around a table plotting how to rip us off or promise one thing than take it away. Things happen, but I highly doubt SOE is out to get us all.
Seriously, do you think they sat around designing NGE and went "Oh they will hate this so much, I can't wait for them all the complain and quit the game!" Really? Whomever was behind it (no need to get into it) thought it was a good idea. Obviously failed and will forever be a scar on their reputation. Not sure why they did what they did, but are people going to dwell on it forever? Really crappy way to live and gaming should be about having fun, not all this stupid drama.
But to assume that they will continue to do this, just to do it is silly to me. If they prove me wrong, hey they win. Until then, I'll base my opinion on what is currently being done, not what happened years ago.
To top it off, EQN will be F2P. No need to invest anything into it beyond time to try it out. If it sucks, don't play it. If you invest thousands into the cash shop and they totally overhaul the entire game, sorry I guess. I'd hope they have a reason to do so, but at least the amount of money spend is optional to some degree. This is a chance we take with any game and if we've learned anything from the past, it is fairly common.
It's sad people are still even talking about SWG, and it's even sadder that people still blame SOE for it, even though LA forced them to make those failed changes.
-It's a F2P game, like all their other games. If they make a shit promise that they can't keep, you're free to try the game, hate it, and quit without ever spending a dime. This model has everything riding on their ability to deliver a fun product that people want* to support. No one is sitting back thinking *Ya ya that's the ticket! We'll just say a bunch a things that isn't true and hope they blow $100's of dollars in the cash shop before they find out that the game doesn't deliver those features! Muahahaha*. That's not how their monetization works for SOE.
-They haven't said anything so far and then gone back on their word. They said "fully destructible environment made out of voxels!" And guess what, you can log into Landmark right now, in a world, that's fully destructible, made out of voxels. Ain't that something?
It's not like they've made a promise and failed to deliver on it yet. I see no reason for such blind haterid and disbelief. Being a skeptic isn't about disbelieving every single thing in the world. That's called being a jack ass.
*Ya ya that's the ticket! We'll just say a bunch a things that isn't true and hope they blow $100's of dollars in the cash shop before they find out that the game doesn't deliver those features! Muahahaha*.
While not cash shop related, they even (or still are?) offered full refunds for Landmark for quite a while. I haven't played many other new games recently, but full refunds used to be pretty rare.
Once you ran that serial number, money was gone. No worries you get a "free" month to decide if you want to throw more money at the game you might now be dissatisfied with. No I paid $50-200 (damn CE editions!) for the first month and now have nothing to show for it besides a useless account and maybe some fancy packaging.
This idea that people have that companies are either stupid or evil is so silly. They simply aren't perfect. They make design decisions that end up kicking them in the rear. I've never run a multi-game, multinational, multi-million/billion dollar business myself, but I'm betting it is a bit more complicated than "Oh just make this class do that to make them happy."
Maybe offering refunds is another lure to keep us fish coming, but it sure makes me want to see what is in the boat.
Originally posted by june32nd Originally posted by DMKanoOriginally posted by NitthOriginally posted by DMKanoWithout Landmark there is no EQNext - SoE has been clear about this from the start.SoE needs players to build assets for EQNext because that was their plan for Landmark.Get the tools out to the community, have style guidelines set (example Dark Elf city) and let players design it according to SoE guidelines.However that line about "EQNext has been in front of you the entire time in form of Landmark" was also followed later with "We've been really busy with Landmark" - which means 90% of their EQNext Dev was all focused on Landmark.So for the last year its all been mostly Landmark work - EQNext dev was minimal at best and it showed - dark elves and couple of classes thrown together in super rough state for the sake of SoE Live - shown in a video, not even playable.So again they've been working on Landmark as that is the building tool for EQNext.Actual work of EQNext *in my opinion* was minimal at best - I am not buying the 60% done line for one second.That to me sounds like pure damage control.Again all of this is 100% my opinion.
I think you over estimate how much gap there is between Landmark and EQN.Whats landmark? its an eqn without the "Scripted" content, butterfly effect ai and minor systems.Landmark is the bulk of EQN.Oh man - no, EQNext is planned to have systems that currently do not exist in Landmark period.NPCs tied into Storybricks - HUGE part of EQnext and pretty major undertaking.Classes finished with all skill systems, animations, effects, sounds, voices.NPCs finished with animations, effects/soundsSpawn/pathing systems for NPCs - will have to tie into Storybricks as wellItemization for the entire game - massive undertaking from assets to graphics for each classLore, stories, voiceovers (to whatever extent small or big) have to be done Dynamic event systems - yeah massive undertakingClass balancing PvP skill balancingDungeon creation and placement within Voxels worldsHow about scalability of max number of players per location in the world with destructible environment? What happens 200 players all start blowing stuff up at the same time?Client / Server performance tuning and optimizationConsole support (PS4)And that's is just the tip of the icebergYeah a shit ton of work that Landmark currently doesn't even touch.I didn't know we had game developers and programmers here in the mmorpg.com forums. Amazing that you seem to know exactly what needs to be done and in some cases know just how much work it'll actually be. Truly amazing.
Idk if your referring to me in that comment, but having undertaken my software certification for several years now (and am in no way an expert)I think I can make a balanced comment.
May not be what happening in actuality, But its my opinion.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
*Ya ya that's the ticket! We'll just say a bunch a things that isn't true and hope they blow $100's of dollars in the cash shop before they find out that the game doesn't deliver those features! Muahahaha*.
While not cash shop related, they even (or still are?) offered full refunds for Landmark for quite a while. I haven't played many other new games recently, but full refunds used to be pretty rare.
Once you ran that serial number, money was gone. No worries you get a "free" month to decide if you want to throw more money at the game you might now be dissatisfied with. No I paid $50-200 (damn CE editions!) for the first month and now have nothing to show for it besides a useless account and maybe some fancy packaging.
This idea that people have that companies are either stupid or evil is so silly. They simply aren't perfect. They make design decisions that end up kicking them in the rear. I've never run a multi-game, multinational, multi-million/billion dollar business myself, but I'm betting it is a bit more complicated than "Oh just make this class do that to make them happy."
Maybe offering refunds is another lure to keep us fish coming, but it sure makes me want to see what is in the boat.
Ya SOE has probably the most generous monetization model I've ever seen out of any AAA studio, yet it still catches flack from people on these forums. It's very strange. Look at PlanetSide 2. They let you into the full game, without a single dime spent, for as many weeks/months/years as you want, and you can play the entire game and earn all the +stat/physical items/weapons in the game without spending a dime (you only have* to pay for cosmetic stuff). And yet they're an "evil money grubbing lying company!"
They give you unlimited alpha/beta access to Landmark for $19.99 and even offer a refund if you want your money back which is basically unheard of as far as AAA PC games go... oh watch out now, SOE is still evil! SWG NEVER FORGET! RAWR!
Meanwhile, I'm a huge Aliens movie fan, and GearBox takes a huge dump in my face with Aliens Colonial Marines (Which btw I was so excited for the game that I pre-ordered 4x copies of and 4x season passes to hand out to my friends so we could all play together) and I get that disaster of a title.
Meanwhile they release another Boarderlands game and the internet is lit up with praise of how awesome they are and about how great they are at making games! GearBox is so awesome! Look how great they are!
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I assume they simply don't know what they are talking about and or haven't been following EQN.
Anyone that has been following the game should know that both games share devs and assets, obviously some aren't getting it.
Beyond some of the non-fantasy items, everything else directly relates to EQN. Damn SOE for spending time making Scifi clothing! You've pushed EQN back another year!
1. I wouldn't call it blindly, but tend to believe what they tell me about their product until I see otherwise. I think that is why this one really burned me.
2. I was/am following it solely off the strength of Planetside 2 and it's development process, the path it took.
Ah, thanks, just curious. Seems many have really bad histories with SOE and can't let it go and are as blinded by anger as some of us are blinded by hope.
For me, SOE isn't perfect, but honestly I care more about the present and the future. They've handled Landmark very well in my book and EQN hopefully follows.
What they are doing has never been done before that I know of. Including PS2. The entire approach to design and community involvement is new for this type of game and I'm sorry that so many are missing out because of past issues or lack of faith.
To each their own, but my advice for anyone that doesn't believe or what not, pay as little attention as possible until it at least goes into Alpha/Beta. Anything beforehand is going to be lacking.
I think we have become spoiled with companies releasing details so early. Before it was a few in closed beta, more in open, then release. There wasn't this huge push, years in advance or through the entire design process. Early access and smaller games started it and now big names are jumping on.
Before people would complain about Betas being full of bugs, now people are complaining that concepts aren't completed or basic features haven't been shown off yet.
Allein..
There is nothing wrong with people being pessimistic and guarded.. Life experiences has taught us that.. It doesn't matter if we are talking about a computer game or investment banking.. Life teaches us very fast that being gullible and naive will leave you vulnerable and open to be taken advantage of.. It's a dog eat dog world out there, especially in the corporate setting where peoples paychecks and livings are reliant upon consumer confidence and hope..
Now when it comes to SOE and gaming.. Some of us remember quite well who it was that SOLD an expansion, knowing damn well, NGE was already in the pipe and coming.. Talk about pure greed and BS.. SOE owns that reputation.. I know many that were pissed to buy the expansion, only for it to useless in a short time when NGE rolled out.. As for gaming in general, most of us heard all the hype about Bioware's 4th pillar.. A revolutionary change in MMO'ing as we know it, as we were told to believe by everyone in the pipe, including all the gaming website news dot coms.. GW2 was suppose to be a game changer as well..
Hyping, believe and hoping for the 2nd coming of a water walking deity is ok if that is what you want.. However, let others believe what they want as well.. Just because someone tells me "I love you" doesn't mean they really do, or that it will last.. This reminds me of one of Jimmy Buffet's song, "A permanent reminder of a temporary feeling"..
Mmm, thats a fair point I didn't consider.
It's missing: combat (until next week), AI/Scripting functionality (soon), moving mobs (soon).
The rest is just iterations on already existing system: crafting 2.0, guild 2.0, cave 2.0, islands 2.0, more biomes, new character creator/system, combat 2.0, etc.
Some of these are probably done in their dev systems and has been for a while. They are not in the game yet, because stuff like caves, islands 2.0 and new character system would require a wipe and they want to limit how many of those they do. They are probably going to wait for all the systems that require a wipe to reach level 2.0 before doing it.
They did split up the man power but not really. Was 1 team working on EQN and then they added Landmark and the team working on EQN also started working on Landmark. As was stated by EQ insider Tenma, the dev team said that unless its a tool to make EQN its on the back burner for Landmark. If its a system thats going into EQN then they will add it to Landmark. So the combat system in Landmark is the backbone of EQN combat system so it was added. Water and day night cycles are the same in both games so they got added to Landmark. As started by Tenma, Landmark will get more of its own toys when EQN is done.
So the content in Landmark helps us know where EQN is by what toys it currently has.
I didn't know we had game developers and programmers here in the mmorpg.com forums. Amazing that you seem to know exactly what needs to be done and in some cases know just how much work it'll actually be. Truly amazing.
My point here is that, a lot of people/players make claims along the lines of your post. In fact some would even go as far as to speak as if they could do it better or how it should be done with little to no actually game development experience or knowledge of game development theory. if you aren't on the dev team or actually work for the company how could you make such a bold claim of this is what they need to do, and this is how long and how it's a "massive under-taking." You can't say for certain. I've read and will dig up the numerous articles that actually make it borderline confusing about EQN and Landmark and how they are going to be so similar that it almost seems like 2 MMOs. For the longest time I actually thought Sony had to balls to put out Landmark and after it was all done, re-brand it as EQN.
Oh it's far worst than that. Not only do they claim to be knowledgeable on game development in general. They also seem to profess this incredible insider knowledge about the development of EQN specifically. As if they're on the team, looking at all the assets and all the code and they know exactly what has been worked on already and precisely where they are in development.
Yet they're basing all that simply on what was shown in a 1 hour keynote at SOE Live.
*slow clap* Bravo.
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That wasn't the point. With any project, you can literally have any number of people that you want.
You can have 1 programmers, 1 designer, 1 artist making Crysis 4 (sure, but it'll take 20 years to finish it lol). Or you can have 50 programmers, 29 designers, 50 artists and knock it out in a normal time frame. The more you throw at a project, the faster it can be finished.
You see this in action at "game jams" or any other development marathons where huge teams come together to collaborate. You throw together 50 people together to slam out a product that would otherwise have taken 2 or 3 people months to do, and you get it done in 1 weekend.
SOE has money and resources behind it. They decided to make 2 games at the same time. Both games share assets and help build one another, that's true enough, so they don't need a 1 to 1 ratio to tackle each game.
However, they probably did bring on more workers to help manage and create both games. Which was my point. They have the right team size to handle the load, is all I'm saying.
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I totally get that. I've had ups and downs with various companies/games as well and that baggage is always in the back of my mind somewhere.
Doesn't mean I instantly dismiss something because "Oh it's SOE, they "lied to me years ago, EQN is made by liars!" or "NGE sucked NINE years ago, so EQN will be just the same."
Who develops a game is important, but in the end, it is the product that counts. If I hate Pizza Hut but they make the best pizza ever, I'm not going to skip it simply because they make it.
Life does teach us to learn from our mistakes or whatever, but I'd hope people have learned to have some hope/faith as well. Not blind, I believe it simply because someone said it, but at least based on some evidence.
They have shown evidence to back up what they've said. So far Landmark has almost been right on the money factoring in new discoveries and what not that have impacted development. Now if Landmark had been a train wreck for the last 8 months, then ya I would be very scared that EQN would follow, but so far the evidence is showing otherwise.
SOE can learn and improve. Seems PS2/DCUO have done well, so they at least have those genres going right. Hopefully they can use that momentum for EQN as well. Seems like a shift in company philosophy and it is working.
I never believe a game is going to be "a game changer" or a "wow killer". Games should simply be enjoyable on their own without having to be "better" than something else or whatever. EQN could come out and do 100% of what they've hyped and people can still prefer AOC or whatever.
Based on what I've seen, EQN looks good so far. I don't factor in any mysterious behind the scenes evil going on in the SOE studio that some do. Where they all sit around a table plotting how to rip us off or promise one thing than take it away. Things happen, but I highly doubt SOE is out to get us all.
Seriously, do you think they sat around designing NGE and went "Oh they will hate this so much, I can't wait for them all the complain and quit the game!" Really? Whomever was behind it (no need to get into it) thought it was a good idea. Obviously failed and will forever be a scar on their reputation. Not sure why they did what they did, but are people going to dwell on it forever? Really crappy way to live and gaming should be about having fun, not all this stupid drama.
But to assume that they will continue to do this, just to do it is silly to me. If they prove me wrong, hey they win. Until then, I'll base my opinion on what is currently being done, not what happened years ago.
To top it off, EQN will be F2P. No need to invest anything into it beyond time to try it out. If it sucks, don't play it. If you invest thousands into the cash shop and they totally overhaul the entire game, sorry I guess. I'd hope they have a reason to do so, but at least the amount of money spend is optional to some degree. This is a chance we take with any game and if we've learned anything from the past, it is fairly common.
^This pretty much wins.
It's sad people are still even talking about SWG, and it's even sadder that people still blame SOE for it, even though LA forced them to make those failed changes.
-It's a F2P game, like all their other games. If they make a shit promise that they can't keep, you're free to try the game, hate it, and quit without ever spending a dime. This model has everything riding on their ability to deliver a fun product that people want* to support. No one is sitting back thinking *Ya ya that's the ticket! We'll just say a bunch a things that isn't true and hope they blow $100's of dollars in the cash shop before they find out that the game doesn't deliver those features! Muahahaha*. That's not how their monetization works for SOE.
-They haven't said anything so far and then gone back on their word. They said "fully destructible environment made out of voxels!" And guess what, you can log into Landmark right now, in a world, that's fully destructible, made out of voxels. Ain't that something?
It's not like they've made a promise and failed to deliver on it yet. I see no reason for such blind haterid and disbelief. Being a skeptic isn't about disbelieving every single thing in the world. That's called being a jack ass.
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While not cash shop related, they even (or still are?) offered full refunds for Landmark for quite a while. I haven't played many other new games recently, but full refunds used to be pretty rare.
Once you ran that serial number, money was gone. No worries you get a "free" month to decide if you want to throw more money at the game you might now be dissatisfied with. No I paid $50-200 (damn CE editions!) for the first month and now have nothing to show for it besides a useless account and maybe some fancy packaging.
This idea that people have that companies are either stupid or evil is so silly. They simply aren't perfect. They make design decisions that end up kicking them in the rear. I've never run a multi-game, multinational, multi-million/billion dollar business myself, but I'm betting it is a bit more complicated than "Oh just make this class do that to make them happy."
Maybe offering refunds is another lure to keep us fish coming, but it sure makes me want to see what is in the boat.
Oh man - no, EQNext is planned to have systems that currently do not exist in Landmark period. NPCs tied into Storybricks - HUGE part of EQnext and pretty major undertaking. Classes finished with all skill systems, animations, effects, sounds, voices. NPCs finished with animations, effects/sounds Spawn/pathing systems for NPCs - will have to tie into Storybricks as well Itemization for the entire game - massive undertaking from assets to graphics for each class Lore, stories, voiceovers (to whatever extent small or big) have to be done Dynamic event systems - yeah massive undertaking Class balancing PvP skill balancing Dungeon creation and placement within Voxels worlds How about scalability of max number of players per location in the world with destructible environment? What happens 200 players all start blowing stuff up at the same time? Client / Server performance tuning and optimization Console support (PS4) And that's is just the tip of the iceberg Yeah a shit ton of work that Landmark currently doesn't even touch.
I didn't know we had game developers and programmers here in the mmorpg.com forums. Amazing that you seem to know exactly what needs to be done and in some cases know just how much work it'll actually be. Truly amazing.
Idk if your referring to me in that comment, but having undertaken my software certification for several years now (and am in no way an expert)I think I can make a balanced comment.
May not be what happening in actuality, But its my opinion.
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Ya SOE has probably the most generous monetization model I've ever seen out of any AAA studio, yet it still catches flack from people on these forums. It's very strange. Look at PlanetSide 2. They let you into the full game, without a single dime spent, for as many weeks/months/years as you want, and you can play the entire game and earn all the +stat/physical items/weapons in the game without spending a dime (you only have* to pay for cosmetic stuff). And yet they're an "evil money grubbing lying company!"
They give you unlimited alpha/beta access to Landmark for $19.99 and even offer a refund if you want your money back which is basically unheard of as far as AAA PC games go... oh watch out now, SOE is still evil! SWG NEVER FORGET! RAWR!
Meanwhile, I'm a huge Aliens movie fan, and GearBox takes a huge dump in my face with Aliens Colonial Marines (Which btw I was so excited for the game that I pre-ordered 4x copies of and 4x season passes to hand out to my friends so we could all play together) and I get that disaster of a title.
Meanwhile they release another Boarderlands game and the internet is lit up with praise of how awesome they are and about how great they are at making games! GearBox is so awesome! Look how great they are!
Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL