That's why I started this thread as it has already evolved into more than just a theoretical discussion. When I see an opinion like yours I immediately ask myself why someone feels like this. EverQuest is a collection of features and lore set into a world, just like any other MMO. It was the specifics of its features and the world that gave EQ a certain feeling to those who did, and may still, play.
EQN will not be an EQ clone but that doesn't mean the overall play of its feature set will be much different in spirit. Already I've seen equivalents and even improvements in the answers listed in this thread.
I'm sorry bro, but you 100% are deluding yourself if you think anything about EQN will be anything like EQ with the sole exception of the lore and the world, both of which, btw, have been heavily altered to fit their new disneyquest direction. Firiona Vie with a bow?, seriously, just, wtf.
This game is basically pissing all over everything that EQ was and represented in the MMO world.
While i care, i don't care too much, because im not any worse off when this frankenstein comes out then i was before. The MMO genre is dead IMO and EQN aint gonna be the one that resurrects it.
Actually I don't think EQN will have anything directly in common with EQ but that wasn't my point. It's not the exact mechanics EQ had that were important but the effect they had on the player's experience. This is obvious since more people seem to complain about how EQ mechanics aren't in other MMOs than actually play EQ (yes, I am one of them). Having a world of hard content, by itself, made EQ a great game IMO because it fostered interaction. EQN can do the same thing. Not only have the devs mentioned the ability to hike up difficulty via AI but also that areas outside "tamed lands" would be more treacherous.
Regarding the lore and world, neither are the same IMO. The lore needed a mix-up since there are two titles that share roughly the same timeline and are still evolving those plots, no need to add a third. The world... EQN has a large, seamless world made of voxels which are also resources. EQN wins IMO and this isn't even counting the actual content in the world, which would tip the scales even more.
You're wrong about EQN not representing "in the MMO world" what EQ was, it's exemplifying it. EQ was cutting edge for the time, revolutionary. EQN looks to be in the exact same vein in comparison to the competition. You may not like the final product that is EQN but in respect to the genre it will do that same thing EQ did, as long as the features promoted are in. That is always a wildcard this early in the timeframe.
I wouldn't be so quick to say that EQN won't have a very large impact on the genre, resurrecting it and such. YOU may not want to play it but unless you are a scripted program representing the collective consciousness of MMO players everywhere that opinion only goes so far. Just as an example, the integration of SoEMote/proximity VoIP chat and the effect it will have on player interaction is something to be highlighted. It's certainly something other fantasy MMOs can't offer.
I'll admit my concerns are an adequate difficulty level and abilities that matter. I know it's easy to write off EQN as "easy mode" because of the graphics style but if SoE has been watching the genre they see that easy content becomes boring and therefore redundant, therefore needless to log in. Abilities that matter. As easy as it is to liken EQN to GW2 there is a main difference, resource pools. Adjustments to these can make combat mean something if it's paired with a decent difficulty level. I am not a fan of the hopping and gliding so I hope it is controlled to minimal levels.
they think it will appeal to a broader audience (translation = $$$). EQN is a game that is being designed solely to make money, not to be a good game (IMO).
You believe there are other games out or coming not created to make money? You think the devs have no interest in if the game is "good" fun or whatever and just looking to make a few bucks before people catch on?
NO reason EQN can't have this is what you should of said. Unfortunately, all the videos ive seen, and all the discussions and panels ive watched, indicate otherwise. Time well tell, but every indication is that this game is going to cater to what i call "casuals".
"Casuals" are the majority. Even within the "hardcore" community, seems some really against EQN are even on the extreme end. Doesn't mean there can't be a scale of difficulty and challenging content, doesn't need to be black and white. The AI and Tiers could make this happen. We obviously translate what they've shown/said differently, but that's just how people are. They gone very little into actual game play beyond big picture stuff so we can't really tell at this point.
See, thats the thing, you can create another character and be known as a good warrior and a good monk, or rogue, or cleric, or whatever. Why does it have to be all in one. I don't get that mentality.
Some people don't want to juggle multiple characters, names, personas or whatever. Nor have to replay content to go from start to finish. Seems their system allows players to choose 1 to 40 classes. No one is forced to multi-class. Kind of defeats the purpose if you don't, but it is still an option. Unlike other games where you have 1 option only. Is there a huge difference between logging off my Warrior and on to my Monk instead of hitting a few buttons or doing whatever in-game mechanic to switch on one character?
Once again, this is a time will tell type of situation, like you said no reason it can't be, other than that again, its one of those things that casuals will complain about. "Why should i have to watch out for one NPC that can kill me and another that might not". Its just laziness, having to consider a target and make sure that this DE isnt a SK that hates everyone, whereas the other DE in the other town was maybe just a warrior who didnt care so much, etc.
I'm not sure who would complain about this. I think people simply play what is provided. Never heard anyone claim about EQ's or any other games faction system as being too much to handle. For some reason certain games simply removed it or took out all the challenge.
But we do know how combat will work, they've released videos. Basically its going to be a lot like GW2, with lots of dodging crap, jumping around, and frankly a more action oriented style of play. While this will appeal to twitch gamers, its not EQ. /shrug
They've shown actual PVE content with the AI and everything working or dummy AI that dies in a hit or two? I agree that there will be a lot of moving around and being active, but for those that cry out for more realism, this seems like the answer. Standing in one spot hitting tab and going down the row of skills is no more challenging or exciting. Having to use WASD while gaming doesn't translate into this meaningless "twitch" buzzword. It isn't going to be Mortal Kombat or COD style. If slow paced combat is what you like, then ya this isn't going to work, but as someone that has fallen asleep playing EQ type games, I welcome it.
The reality is also that anytime you have people be able to be a bunch of different roles, they invariably suck at most of them. Thats part of human nature, you have to practice something to be good at it. Thats assuming of course that something takes skill in the first place. Unfortunately many games, and i suspect EQN will be one of them, dumb things down so much that as long as you mash one of the 4 buttons they give you, its going to be hard to not succeed.
I agree with the first part. But realistically, even with 1 class, most gamers or casuals as you said, aren't very good. There is a pretty wide gap between the top and even average players. While going with a smaller skill set might help these folks out and actually let the improve a bit, it is possible the game could be extremely easy. No reason it will or has to be. A game can have a variety of challenge levels and doesn't need to be a cake walk from day 1 to 1000. EQN seems to have potential for a lot more to be crammed in one world, which could be a wide variety of players being able to play differently instead of it either being too hard or too easy for a decent chunk. Simply have casual content and hard content with plenty to do. Even with multi-classing, I'm betting that many won't even go for 40+ classes and will focus on one or a few similar ones. The time/effort needed to go for all of them takes another degree of effort.
Well, if it continues in the way im expecting, i won't be missing out on anything. If, and this is a big If, they happen to start releasing information that leads me to believe otherwise. Im not opposed to changing my mind. But all i can do is base my opinion off what i've seen. And what i've seen is bad bad bad bad.
That's all we can do. I know that I could log in on day one and totally hate the game and never come back. Can't tell the future. Until that day though, I'm going to at least keep some faith. If there was anything better to play, I wouldn't be wasting my time writing walls of text in a forum
You are absolutely correct that i have fundamental issues with EQN and the genre in general. As you said, we find ourselves at a point where we are faced with making a decision. But that doesn't mean im not gonna bitch about it. I realize that im probably at that point, and like i said, IMO the genre is dead. Thats from my perspective. Also, like i said, im not really any worse off. If they continue to make garbage, vs making nothing, its 6 of one half the dozen of the other to me.
Understandable, honestly if EQN doesn't pan out, I'm probably done unless some random game comes out that blows me away. Only games even remotely interesting are Camelot Unchained and Pathfinder Online, both of which I have little faith in. MMOs are no longer my life and I've become a casual. I'm going to at least give EQN a go and see what happens. Despite it not being perfect for me, it does have quite a bit of new ideas to be worth trying out. Even if to just say it didn't work.
Personally i think the MMO and gaming industry in general is in a bubble thats about to burst. I dont think the current trends are sustainable, especially with companies like EA who are focused on fleecing people. Eventually people will become the wiser, some slower than others, but it will happen. It happened in the 80's, and all the indications are very similar to back then. So, will history repeat itself? who knows.
I think it already happened. Besides WoW which is bleeding, no other game that is out or has come out recently is doing that amazing. They probably are breaking even and turning some profit, but few (no?) games are having steady population increases 6 months - 1 year in that I've heard of. MOBAs have millions more are F2P and have the open class system that SOE seems to be attempting in a MMORPG. Might work, might not, but only one way to find out. Lots of small indies trying to go after small niches, but the AAA market is pretty much dried up, especially now that Blizzard stepped out of the ring. SOE is the last big name to be really pushing the limits or going for the masses.
Edit:
I also wanted to mention, at no point have i ever seen one of the developers or people talking about EQN, who have gone "man, we did this to the game, or we're gonna do that, because its just cool!"
Its always been "well, our research indicates X, and we did Y because of this trend in the industry".
I just don't get the impression its a team of people who are making a game they're excited about. I get the impressions its a project they've been assigned to, and they're just checking boxes off the list of "features that need to be in a modern MMO"
We must be reading/watching totally different interviews and conversations then. Georgeson basically gushes about EQN and the games he oversees and the general EQN team seems to be really excited. Even when they talk about tech gibberish, they seem excited. Then again they are devs and they aren't exactly the most exciting folks to watch either. If anything, I get the impression that they want to tell us so much more, but because of whatever release strategy they have, their lips are sealed. Funny watching the last two genre panels (whatever gaming event) with the heads of Wildstar, ESO, and other games talking about their games which are basically the same old thing and then seeing Georgeson's eyes and smile give away what they have cooking.
for many players EQ was one of the first (or THE first) mmo, therefor, the new horizons were simply amazing and unparaleled by anything out there.
why it took so long to level? because powerleveling wasn't even a word back then *G*
so, what made it big? for many it was the digital "first love", and we all know, memories can hardly be reached...
in a few years (let's say 10 to 20) people will talk the same stuff about WoW again.... believe it or not :P
basically they already do it with their legends about "WoW classic" and how much everything was better, including raids and battlegrounds (which, quite frankly, weren't even ingame in the PURE vanilla version of WoW).
for the first time we had PERMANENT virtual chars, on a server/world that was persistent and no local hosted mini lan or something. we became our chars, we loved em, and we suffered with them.
it surely was a big jump from "2 player games" to servers with (at peak hours) serveral hundred or thousand (those numbers are from DAoC now, sorry, never played EQ myself), and especially since you could band up with your friends, and be the cool guys in town :P
it's all about perception
and incase you wonder what changed, games aren't done alone, or with two people anymore (as they were done on the 8 bit systems), neither with a hand full of devs (as done on the 2nd gen starters: EQ, DAoC and so on), neither do you produce a game merely with an idea (unless you are called chriss roberts). games are made by HUGE companies, investing HUGE ammounts of money (and sometimes time too) now.
so yea, shocking that they actually wanna make some cash with them :>
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
Not entirely, but thank you for putting words into my mouth and perpetuating some BS stereotype of old school gamers.
What i loved about EQ was:
1. Art Style. Semi serious but still high fantasy. Not disney/wow with huge shoulders and double jumping, and parkour running all over the place as show in the EQN video. <no kidding.. Is it even possible to die from fall damage in EQN?>
2. Difficulty of play. By difficulty i mean, mobs were hard, dungeons were unforgiving. A large portion of content required multiple people working together to get through. You had to actually pay attention to what you were doing and when. Counter that to something like GW2 where you can basically mash whatever button you want and still be very succesful. < right on bro!! I used to remember when my "invis" would start wearing off early and I would be saying to myself, "shit, shit, shit".. and try to find a spot quick to recast.. ha ha >
3. Clearly defined classes and roles. In EQ you needed someone to crowd control, you needed someone to tank, you needed someone to heal, you needed someone to do DPS. This made people's characters have an identity. While you were bad at many things, generally you were very good at 1 or 2 specific things. In EQN your character is basically meaningless as you can change on the fly your role, you have NO identity, whatsoever. The only difference between you and any other person is whether you're a goofy looking lion, a human, or whatever. < agree mostly,, I'm a huge fan of class defining skills and role playing. As much as I understand some old school critics complaining that many classes in EQ could not solo, there are ways to address that without throwing the baby out with the bath water.. EQ should of been tweaked so that both sides of the fence are satisfied.. Take the zone of Oasis of Marr for example.. Make it so that general roaming mobs such as the mummies, scarabs, spiders can be solo'd by anyone.. However, certain roaming mobs like Sand Giants, named Crocs will require a group.. In addition static locations like a Derv camp will also require a group.. This way group and solo content can coexist in the same zone.. And at different levels.. YES.. Oasis was a zone from 7-30ish.>
4. Factions meant something. If you were a high elf paladin, and you tried to walk into an area dominated by Dark Elves, you better be prepared to get stomped into the ground. But, maybe you were a sadist, and you wanted to kill a bunch of mobs that the DE's hated so you could gain enough faction with them that they wouldnt kill you on site. This was an option. While EQN *may* have something like this, they've already stated that no race will be KoS to another race. Once again, this removes character identity. <BINGO>
There are many other things, but im not going to list the more minute stuff.
If im being honest, what irks me the most about the game is the art direction, both the style of the game, and the way the game plays. If you watch the videos everyone runs stupid fast, things like cliff faces and hill and such are not even in the realm of obstacles to traverse, you just do some lame parkour slide or hop. The double jumping was especially stupid. No effing idea why they would put that in the game.
For it to be an EQ game i think it needs 3 things:
1. Art direction consistent with the franchise, but modernized in terms of graphics, poly count, textures, etc.
2. Clearly defined classes with their own specific abilities. Characters should have identity.
3. Large world with a functioning meaningful faction system. And i don't just mean NPC vs PC. This world should also have multiple starting areas and each race should have its own city. I know this is a huge investment in terms of development, but having 1 or 2 cities for good and evil races etc completely detracts from the feeling of a world.
+1
Originally posted by CaveDan
Sadly, there will never be another EQ. Actually knowing where you were due to the long hikes to get to your grinding zone of choice. A couple of my faves were Hill Giant Fort and of course the ramp in OT. In most MMOs I play support classes, and EQ had the best. Roles that actually made you feel you were doing your part to help your party kick ass. *cgh* BARDS *cgh*
It used to mean something when you had to go get a certain named mob. Sometimes waiting for days to get the dude to spawn, just to have someone run in last minute and take the kill. But when you finally got the kill and the loot (damn monk paws),! The feeling of reward was something that is still unmatched in todays games.
And possibly one of my favorite things to do in EQ was sit near the bank casting temp and the like for fat stacks of plat!
Money for your spells!
Some may look at these things and see them as negatives, such as the rare mobhunting. But to me it is the very thing that is missing today and made EQ what it was, the reason people will continue to speak of it in such reverence.
I'd still play if the graphics weren't so dated.
+1 I think most would love to see a TRUE legit EQ1 sequel.. All that needed to be done was use most of the EQ formula, tweak what was semi broken.. Add in some "new" improved programing and artwork.. I would gladly return and pay a sub for that.. And honestly, I think it could be a major player on the field next to WoW if done right.. But that is the real trick.. "If done right".. and lets be honest I haven't seen anything come out of SOE that is worth talking about since the SoV expansion .. and that was how long ago?
If I were to compare it, look at Vanilla Wow. Nearly all elements from the game were taken from EQ1 and adjusted to make it fit their design, attempting to perfect it. EQ is what established the MMo community in the design of what people know and love, and even to this day it is still a driving force even if its form shifted to some extent.
EQ's main strength was its ability to build community. It was built around team effort and had much slower progress. People had plenty of socialize about, something that WoW shows a great example of degrading the experience over time with their changes. Guildwars 2 shows the pinacle in MMos in destroying any connection with others around you as they become more just props then actual people you play with.
What it needs to do is learn from WoW (funny how the game that got almost all its elements form EQ would be EQN's possible best learning tool with what to do and not do) figuring out what elements hurt social interaction and what strengthen it and are needed. It needs to advance with the times but also know not to concede fully to the watered down formula of 'face roll' most people want. Perhaps in part it can learn from Wildstar which shot way over in terms of its difficulty without easing people in and having more options and less tedium. They need to hit the right middle ground and make sure to cater to hardcore players while giving casual players options of things to do. There are many casuals who enjoy stuff like raids but simply can't do it if they are far to punishing towards time with little in terms of 'checkpoints' for the content to be cleared in smaller intervals.
Just DO NOT focus on casuals otherwise your game is destined to fail horribly as hardcore players quickly drop out, and casuals who wouldn't dedicate themselves much to begin with drop even quicker then normal having nothing to do. Give casuals a carrot and reward them with it in bits, but don't just give the carrot right away without effort or they have no reason to stay.
+1 I think most would love to see a TRUE legit EQ1 sequel.. All that needed to be done was use most of the EQ formula, tweak what was semi broken.. Add in some "new" improved programing and artwork.. I would gladly return and pay a sub for that.. And honestly, I think it could be a major player on the field next to WoW if done right.. But that is the real trick.. "If done right".. and lets be honest I haven't seen anything come out of SOE that is worth talking about since the SoV expansion .. and that was how long ago?
Most as in most gamers, most EQ fans, most long time EQ players, most very early EQ fans?
They could probably get a server or two populated, but they most likely wouldn't be able to keep SOE running from EQ clone's profits. Basically have 3 games all fairly similar and all doing sub par compared to even the low end of the competition.
It's tough to avoid nostalgia when it comes to old things.
We often forget what sucked, what was limiting, what we didn't like and wash that out with a big cup of nostalgic tea.
As someone who played EQ after Asheron's Call (AC being my first MMO and my honeymoon) I really didn't care that much for it and quickly returned to AC before eventually moving onto Dark Age.
This to me says two things:
- For most, EQ was their first.
- MMOs were so limited back then, there was a lot more imagination that had to go on. Just the same way I have fond memories of playing a MUD, it would not be something I could return to.
As a side note to the imagination factor, it was also quite novel playing with others. It was new and exciting, I couldn't wait to meet other people on my journeys. These days.. I go out of my way to avoid people and get annoyed when I have to mob share. People are nothing more than pixels on a screen to me. Sometimes I can barely tell the difference between a player and an NPC.
I don't think you'll ever recapture that imagination factor or that desire for social interaction; no matter how hard you try.
Does that mean EQN can't be successful in its own right? Of course not.
It's just.. well, like an old film getting remade, it will never capture the original glory.
It's tough to avoid nostalgia when it comes to old things.
We often forget what sucked, what was limiting, what we didn't like and wash that out with a big cup of nostalgic tea.
As someone who played EQ after Asheron's Call (AC being my first MMO and my honeymoon) I really didn't care that much for it and quickly returned to AC before eventually moving onto Dark Age.
This to me says two things:
- For most, EQ was their first.
- MMOs were so limited back then, there was a lot more imagination that had to go on. Just the same way I have fond memories of playing a MUD, it would not be something I could return to.
As a side note to the imagination factor, it was also quite novel playing with others. It was new and exciting, I couldn't wait to meet other people on my journeys. These days.. I go out of my way to avoid people and get annoyed when I have to mob share. People are nothing more than pixels on a screen to me. Sometimes I can barely tell the difference between a player and an NPC.
I don't think you'll ever recapture that imagination factor or that desire for social interaction; no matter how hard you try.
Does that mean EQN can't be successful in its own right? Of course not.
It's just.. well, like an old film getting remade, it will never capture the original glory.
See, i get really tired of the nostalgia/rose colored glasses argument. While there is some merit to it in many situations. This is not one of them.
Earlier this year i decided to go play on a server which we're not allowed to discuss here, but it approximates early EQ very well. Now, obviously people played it like they do modern MMOs, so there are wikis telling you spawn rates and drop rates and this and that. But, i played it for several months, and it was just as awesome and fun of an experience as my first time around.
Yes, the sense of wonderment wasnt there. That part was gone. But the mechanics of the game (not all of them, mind you) still held up just fine. There was still a great sense of community, the world felt like a world, etc.
Another example since you point out movies ill give is 2.
Alien, Die Hard. Both of these movies hold up extremely well. If you go and watch either of them they're still just as awesome as they ever were. Whereas something like Independence Day aged very badly. So, the point here is it really depends on the product.
IMO EQ is not an example of rose colored glasses.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
The first risk vs reward and one of the only MMO's. A vast dangerous world where accomplishing anything a moment for real celebration. PvE danger was real. I've played games with exciting PvP open world danger, but EQ was the only MMO to offer open world PvE danger.
And you ask why was I out there in the PvE danger world. I was out there for specfic loot and experience. Not all loot and experience was the same. Also the complex unique loot tables cannot be overlooked. I see game after game having the same old boring universal loot tables. There is no reason to hunt a specific mob. Some mobs had higher exp with poor loot and other had amazing loot less than amazing exp. I would spend hours researching which mob to hunt. Would it be possible to solo, does the mob summon?
EQN can at least bring back rare spawns. I believe if they have a tagging system like GW2 and everyone can get the rare spawn loot that hits it, everything would be fine. Also the hope of dynamic spawns is exciting for EQN. I would like the difficulty and fear of death to follow. Give the hardcore PvE soloers something to do.
This has nothing to do with nostalgia. This is the way it was and I would like some of these qualities back. Some games have started to head towards a higher level of freedom, unlike the linear themeparks of the past 10 years, but they lack the hardcore solo PvE aspect. The PvE danger walking around the world is gone with most of the latest MMO's as they are afraid to upset someone.
See, i get really tired of the nostalgia/rose colored glasses argument. While there is some merit to it in many situations. This is not one of them.
Earlier this year i decided to go play on a server which we're not allowed to discuss here, but it approximates early EQ very well. Now, obviously people played it like they do modern MMOs, so there are wikis telling you spawn rates and drop rates and this and that. But, i played it for several months, and it was just as awesome and fun of an experience as my first time around.
Yes, the sense of wonderment wasnt there. That part was gone. But the mechanics of the game (not all of them, mind you) still held up just fine. There was still a great sense of community, the world felt like a world, etc.
IMO EQ is not an example of rose colored glasses.
I agree and disagree with this. I agree that for you personally, it isn't a matter of nostalgia, you simply like EQ in it's purest form (not sure if you like current EQ or not). If you specifically like the original mechanics as is, I think you are a minority even within the "old school vet" group that want "hardcore" games to return.
I loved EQ when it came out and for a few expansions, then not only did the game change, but other games came out offering different takes on the genre and I changed as well.
Just as I don't listen to the same music daily as I did 15+ years ago, or like the same food, or dress the same, etc I've moved on. Doesn't mean I don't still hold on to all that and don't dust off the oldies once in a while, but I'm in no rush to time travel.
I to have attempted to play this unknown game you speak of and I just couldn't hack it. The mechanics and game are the same that I enjoyed years ago, but I'm not.
So while I agree that you love original EQ, I think many that pray to the mmo gods for it to be reborn, are like me and either don't know or or can't accept it. If not, I think we'd see quite a few more people playing on those unknown servers or not continuing to pump money into games that go against everything that EQ was. Not to mention, we wouldn't have jumped ship so easily. If EQ was that amazing to us back then, we would of protested or something to keep it as is. All I saw was life rafts.
The genre hasn't changed because the devs/companies decided randomly, there has to be some player impact there somewhere.
BTW, sounds like they are making a sequel to ID, originality what's that?
See, i get really tired of the nostalgia/rose colored glasses argument. While there is some merit to it in many situations. This is not one of them.
Earlier this year i decided to go play on a server which we're not allowed to discuss here, but it approximates early EQ very well. Now, obviously people played it like they do modern MMOs, so there are wikis telling you spawn rates and drop rates and this and that. But, i played it for several months, and it was just as awesome and fun of an experience as my first time around.
Yes, the sense of wonderment wasnt there. That part was gone. But the mechanics of the game (not all of them, mind you) still held up just fine. There was still a great sense of community, the world felt like a world, etc.
IMO EQ is not an example of rose colored glasses.
I agree and disagree with this. I agree that for you personally, it isn't a matter of nostalgia, you simply like EQ in it's purest form (not sure if you like current EQ or not). If you specifically like the original mechanics as is, I think you are a minority even within the "old school vet" group that want "hardcore" games to return.
Please define hardcore.. I keep hearing that a lot as well, and I never viewed EQ a hardcore.. I just enjoyed the mechanics as they resembled true PnP role playing (AD&D) then any game I played since EQ.. Weigh encumbrance should matter, stamina should matter, food and drink should matter, etc etc.. To me those mechanics aren't hardcore..
I loved EQ when it came out and for a few expansions, then not only did the game change, but other games came out offering different takes on the genre and I changed as well.
I might agree with you here, but probably for different reasons.. I loved the Kunark and SoV and even Luclin expansion, but after that with PoP, and ever expansion since, the game morphed into something else.. IMO, I think many bailed on EQ more so because of what it turned into, then what it was.. We all know that EQ had some issues, but what SOE did was make it worse.. Oh sure they thought their solution was good, but in the end it turned out to be more destructive then the original issues..
Just as I don't listen to the same music daily as I did 15+ years ago, or like the same food, or dress the same, etc I've moved on. Doesn't mean I don't still hold on to all that and don't dust off the oldies once in a while, but I'm in no rush to time travel.
I listen to all the oldies, current and in betweens on a daily basis.. It's all good to me.. Problem I have, is that their are not "oldies" to play anymore.. (OFFICIALLY)..
I to have attempted to play this unknown game you speak of and I just couldn't hack it. The mechanics and game are the same that I enjoyed years ago, but I'm not.
So while I agree that you love original EQ, I think many that pray to the mmo gods for it to be reborn, are like me and either don't know or or can't accept it. If not, I think we'd see quite a few more people playing on those unknown servers or not continuing to pump money into games that go against everything that EQ was. Not to mention, we wouldn't have jumped ship so easily. If EQ was that amazing to us back then, we would of protested or something to keep it as is. All I saw was life rafts.
Kinda hard to play unofficial games when they are not marketing or selling the product.. FYI that game not to be named requires you already own a certain edition, which can only be bought via Ebay or similar websites for BIG prices..
The genre hasn't changed because the devs/companies decided randomly, there has to be some player impact there somewhere.
BTW, sounds like they are making a sequel to ID, originality what's that?
And I doubt people like me or Hri are all that small.. I just had a friend last week call me asking if I had a copy of that un-named game for her to download and play.. I did not.. Add that into another buddy and his wife that live in Tenn that tried to go back to EQ (morphed version) as I did, it just wasn't the same.. We didn't change, the game did.. It was almost unrecognizable..
Part of what made EQ great, was the lack of competition. UO was a great game, but it's wild west nature scared off a lot of players. EQ gave those players a home, and also looked pretty good graphically when it came out. Those same mechanics today wouldn't do nearly as well, Vanguard was very similar mechanically to EQ, and it struggled.
That having been said, as a player who loved the game, I think a lot of what made EQ great was the social aspects. It was challenging. You needed to work together. Even a soloer might need someone to help them get their corpse at some point. That caused players to work together and generally treat one another better because if you developed a bad reputation the only people who would group with you were others with bad reputations.
The combination of being the first truly group oriented, and raid capable MMO, combined with the social bonds from its mechanics made EQ a memorable game. The community was a big part of it, and the mechanics made it easier for that to happen. You don't get that same feeling in modern games, because the mechanics in many ways discourage grouping. The mechanics also generally separate players outside of being within a few levels of one another in modern games, where in EQ you had content which overlapped. High level dungeons near low level areas. Zones like East Karana which had content from like level 18-45. Even if the players weren't hunting together, they were crossing paths. The low levels loved seeing higher level players come clear Giants or Griffons from their hunting areas, they wished one day they could be that guy. Then when they were that guy they relished in how far they had come.
Games don't generally get designed in that way any more. If your in zone X then you are between level 20-22 and in zone Y you are between levels 25-28. To progress you do quests, and unless someone else is on those same stages there isn't much reason to group with them. Because players often move out of the level bubble of one another, and because they don't really need to interact with anyone outside of their bubble, you don't get that mix of low and high levels together outside of cities. And as a result you don't get the reverence or the community feeling you had in EQ. I know as a troll shadowknight, I knew most of the regular trolls. They'd often send me tells asking questions, things of that nature, because they had seen me in the same area. And because I often came across them I usually answered those questions.
Until developers get rid of things like anonymous group finders, start encouraging traditional grouping, and go back to a wider overlap of level ranges, you won't be able to duplicate that experience.
The social aspect of an MMO is obviously important. In what ways could EQN accomplish this to the same degree EQ (and AC) did while still remaining accessible to both players with a lot of time and those with less time?
Please define hardcore.. I keep hearing that a lot as well, and I never viewed EQ a hardcore.. I just enjoyed the mechanics as they resembled true PnP role playing (AD&D) then any game I played since EQ.. Weigh encumbrance should matter, stamina should matter, food and drink should matter, etc etc.. To me those mechanics aren't hardcore..
Oh, I dislike buzzwords. Simply see it used by people that shove themselves in boxes with "hardcore" or "old school vet" on top. Same folks that like to call others "casuals" "carebears" and other such terms with a lot of negative connotation. Same gamers that seem to attribute all of EQ's mechanics to being harder then today's games where I see many as larger time sinks. "What you won't camp this spawn for 5 hours for boots? You must be a casual." Basically the idea that you have to give a decent chunk of your life to be considered dedicated is "hardcore" to me. I personally no longer have the time to play 40+ hours a week or raid for 5+ hours at a time (on a week day no less).
I might agree with you here, but probably for different reasons.. I loved the Kunark and SoV and even Luclin expansion, but after that with PoP, and ever expansion since, the game morphed into something else.. IMO, I think many bailed on EQ more so because of what it turned into, then what it was.. We all know that EQ had some issues, but what SOE did was make it worse.. Oh sure they thought their solution was good, but in the end it turned out to be more destructive then the original issues..
So many factors that we'll never know what caused what to happen. It seems many (most) left EQ around the same time SOL/POP or soon after. Just happened to be the same time more games came out and EQ itself started to change. Those that didn't leave seem to be the ones still playing today in either EQ/EQ2. Which to me is funny as those that have dedicated 15+ years to EQ went with the changes because of their love of EQ, with most of us bailing out fairly early. Yet now feel entitled that SOE should reward us for ditching the game 10+ years ago. It is possible if they hadn't ever changed that it could of held up better and fewer might of left, but I doubt it. EQ was a fairly basic game and lacked a lot of the flair other games have.
From a fresh gamers perspective if I had both EQ and WoW in my hands in the store, it would of been an easy choice.
I listen to all the oldies, current and in betweens on a daily basis.. It's all good to me.. Problem I have, is that their are not "oldies" to play anymore.. (OFFICIALLY)..
I to have a huge music collection, just making a general statement that I simply am not the same person I used to be and want more/different things now. Apparently not everyone is like that and some are good just doing the same thing forever. Big factor in why I can no longer play vertical progression games.
Kinda hard to play unofficial games when they are not marketing or selling the product.. FYI that game not to be named requires you already own a certain edition, which can only be bought via Ebay or similar websites for BIG prices..
If people look hard enough, it isn't hard to find a copy. Sure there is no marketing, but it isn't too hard to come across it or at least know about it by now if someone is that serious into wanting the experience. For those that say it is all about the game play and not the graphics, problems solved. Betting many are like me though and the nostalgia quickly wears off.
And I doubt people like me or Hri are all that small.. I just had a friend last week call me asking if I had a copy of that un-named game for her to download and play.. I did not.. Add that into another buddy and his wife that live in Tenn that tried to go back to EQ (morphed version) as I did, it just wasn't the same.. We didn't change, the game did.. It was almost unrecognizable..
Relatively speaking, when you have games like WoW & LoL or even however many GW2 got up to, EQ never had a huge population. At it's prime, yes it was the top, but that was what 500k? WoW bleeds that in a few months it seems. Not saying EQN has the potential to hit 10+ million or anything, but I'm assuming SOE wants the largest net to at least attempt to break out of the floundering mmorpg market where most games hit a couple million at release and then decline over time.
Older gamers aren't worthless fans to be discarded, but when we make up like 5-10% of the total market, it is easy to see why SOE is'n't bending over backwards to make sure our wants are being met. I know I've said this before though, either we adapt or get left behind. The market has changed and we have to change with it or face having nothing to play or being grumps complaining on forums. 50 people complaining on a thread or 2k voting on a forum poll are nothing compared to the millions that appear to like options beyond EQ's early days.
EQ Not! is not Everquest and is not intended to be Everquest.
In late 2013 Dave Georgeson was wandering around conferences telling people it (EQN) was not Everquest and he meant it.
At SOE Live 2013 Dave Georgeson told us "we have been playing Dungeons and Dragons for too long it is time for something different", well EQ. EQII and WoW are all fundamentally D&D based, take out the D&D and what you have is something entirely different.
John Smedley has said a number of times that they were developing an EQ 3 but that they did not think it was different enough so they trashed it and started with a clean slate.
John Smedley has also said on a number of occasions that he was looking for something like Eve and not something like Everquest/SWG/Vanguard.
Both Dave Georgeson and John Smedley have made lots of references to League of Legends as the intended combat style.
The graphics style of the Avatars is largely determined by the need to support SOE Emote with large eyes, mouths and eyebrows. So that the 'facial expressions' that players make in real life can be shown on the faces of their avatars. Some have said that this makes them "Disney Like" and childish. I agree with this, gurning is not attractive in real life and has no place in a computer game IMHO.
Finally the game is aimed at an audience with an entirely different demographic than the existing player base of EQ/EQ2 and WoW. While SOE may hope to pick up some of these players to help pay the bills what they want is to pull in a new generation of customers that do not currently play MMORPGs.
Then I choose to be left behind.. I will not put ONE DIME into a game that doesn't appeal to my desires.. Just like I do with everything else in life.. I really don't see EQN doing any better then all the games before it.. I will not adapt to rap music, and twitch combat like in EQN can join Snoop Dog.. LOL
Originally posted by Rydeson Then I choose to be left behind.. I will not put ONE DIME into a game that doesn't appeal to my desires.. Just like I do with everything else in life.. I really don't see EQN doing any better then all the games before it.. I will not adapt to rap music, and twitch combat like in EQN can join Snoop Dog.. LOL
You are not alone , there are many of us.
EQN may become a successful and popular game, but Everquest it is not and never will be.
When did playing EQ entitle people to decide what is EQ and what it is not? Did EQ follow the trend of other titles of the time? No. Is EQN? Doesn't look like it.
Of course it's not exactly like it, why would SoE do that? They are designing this game for everyone to play, not just a select few. I think that's a big reason why a few are upset by the differences. EQN wasn't made just for them and I guess playing EQ in the past meant that it should have been.
There are those that did play EQ but also want something new in the genre. It will have similar places, faces and looks to have a very immersive world. That's a good thing IMO.
I thought this would be a good place to talk about that yet all I see is whining and complaining. Oh well.
But Aelious, lets be honest here a least.. The EverQuest name is ONLY being used as a marketing grab to generate interest from an preexisting game.. Pure and Simple.. Take away the self imposed sharing of names, there are no similarities at all between the two games.. Combat is different, Classes, Character development.. etc etc.. EQN is as close to EQ, as Leave it to Beaver is to Star Trek.. In all honestly, EQN should of just been given a whole new name and lore.. But then would people have followed it and supported it without the EQ title? hmmmm
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Actually I don't think EQN will have anything directly in common with EQ but that wasn't my point. It's not the exact mechanics EQ had that were important but the effect they had on the player's experience. This is obvious since more people seem to complain about how EQ mechanics aren't in other MMOs than actually play EQ (yes, I am one of them). Having a world of hard content, by itself, made EQ a great game IMO because it fostered interaction. EQN can do the same thing. Not only have the devs mentioned the ability to hike up difficulty via AI but also that areas outside "tamed lands" would be more treacherous.
Regarding the lore and world, neither are the same IMO. The lore needed a mix-up since there are two titles that share roughly the same timeline and are still evolving those plots, no need to add a third. The world... EQN has a large, seamless world made of voxels which are also resources. EQN wins IMO and this isn't even counting the actual content in the world, which would tip the scales even more.
You're wrong about EQN not representing "in the MMO world" what EQ was, it's exemplifying it. EQ was cutting edge for the time, revolutionary. EQN looks to be in the exact same vein in comparison to the competition. You may not like the final product that is EQN but in respect to the genre it will do that same thing EQ did, as long as the features promoted are in. That is always a wildcard this early in the timeframe.
I wouldn't be so quick to say that EQN won't have a very large impact on the genre, resurrecting it and such. YOU may not want to play it but unless you are a scripted program representing the collective consciousness of MMO players everywhere that opinion only goes so far. Just as an example, the integration of SoEMote/proximity VoIP chat and the effect it will have on player interaction is something to be highlighted. It's certainly something other fantasy MMOs can't offer.
I'll admit my concerns are an adequate difficulty level and abilities that matter. I know it's easy to write off EQN as "easy mode" because of the graphics style but if SoE has been watching the genre they see that easy content becomes boring and therefore redundant, therefore needless to log in. Abilities that matter. As easy as it is to liken EQN to GW2 there is a main difference, resource pools. Adjustments to these can make combat mean something if it's paired with a decent difficulty level. I am not a fan of the hopping and gliding so I hope it is controlled to minimal levels.
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for many players EQ was one of the first (or THE first) mmo, therefor, the new horizons were simply amazing and unparaleled by anything out there.
why it took so long to level? because powerleveling wasn't even a word back then *G*
so, what made it big? for many it was the digital "first love", and we all know, memories can hardly be reached...
in a few years (let's say 10 to 20) people will talk the same stuff about WoW again.... believe it or not :P
basically they already do it with their legends about "WoW classic" and how much everything was better, including raids and battlegrounds (which, quite frankly, weren't even ingame in the PURE vanilla version of WoW).
for the first time we had PERMANENT virtual chars, on a server/world that was persistent and no local hosted mini lan or something. we became our chars, we loved em, and we suffered with them.
it surely was a big jump from "2 player games" to servers with (at peak hours) serveral hundred or thousand (those numbers are from DAoC now, sorry, never played EQ myself), and especially since you could band up with your friends, and be the cool guys in town :P
it's all about perception
and incase you wonder what changed, games aren't done alone, or with two people anymore (as they were done on the 8 bit systems), neither with a hand full of devs (as done on the 2nd gen starters: EQ, DAoC and so on), neither do you produce a game merely with an idea (unless you are called chriss roberts). games are made by HUGE companies, investing HUGE ammounts of money (and sometimes time too) now.
so yea, shocking that they actually wanna make some cash with them :>
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
If I were to compare it, look at Vanilla Wow. Nearly all elements from the game were taken from EQ1 and adjusted to make it fit their design, attempting to perfect it. EQ is what established the MMo community in the design of what people know and love, and even to this day it is still a driving force even if its form shifted to some extent.
EQ's main strength was its ability to build community. It was built around team effort and had much slower progress. People had plenty of socialize about, something that WoW shows a great example of degrading the experience over time with their changes. Guildwars 2 shows the pinacle in MMos in destroying any connection with others around you as they become more just props then actual people you play with.
What it needs to do is learn from WoW (funny how the game that got almost all its elements form EQ would be EQN's possible best learning tool with what to do and not do) figuring out what elements hurt social interaction and what strengthen it and are needed. It needs to advance with the times but also know not to concede fully to the watered down formula of 'face roll' most people want. Perhaps in part it can learn from Wildstar which shot way over in terms of its difficulty without easing people in and having more options and less tedium. They need to hit the right middle ground and make sure to cater to hardcore players while giving casual players options of things to do. There are many casuals who enjoy stuff like raids but simply can't do it if they are far to punishing towards time with little in terms of 'checkpoints' for the content to be cleared in smaller intervals.
Just DO NOT focus on casuals otherwise your game is destined to fail horribly as hardcore players quickly drop out, and casuals who wouldn't dedicate themselves much to begin with drop even quicker then normal having nothing to do. Give casuals a carrot and reward them with it in bits, but don't just give the carrot right away without effort or they have no reason to stay.
Most as in most gamers, most EQ fans, most long time EQ players, most very early EQ fans?
They could probably get a server or two populated, but they most likely wouldn't be able to keep SOE running from EQ clone's profits. Basically have 3 games all fairly similar and all doing sub par compared to even the low end of the competition.
What was broken by the way?
It's tough to avoid nostalgia when it comes to old things.
We often forget what sucked, what was limiting, what we didn't like and wash that out with a big cup of nostalgic tea.
As someone who played EQ after Asheron's Call (AC being my first MMO and my honeymoon) I really didn't care that much for it and quickly returned to AC before eventually moving onto Dark Age.
This to me says two things:
- For most, EQ was their first.
- MMOs were so limited back then, there was a lot more imagination that had to go on. Just the same way I have fond memories of playing a MUD, it would not be something I could return to.
As a side note to the imagination factor, it was also quite novel playing with others. It was new and exciting, I couldn't wait to meet other people on my journeys. These days.. I go out of my way to avoid people and get annoyed when I have to mob share. People are nothing more than pixels on a screen to me. Sometimes I can barely tell the difference between a player and an NPC.
I don't think you'll ever recapture that imagination factor or that desire for social interaction; no matter how hard you try.
Does that mean EQN can't be successful in its own right? Of course not.
It's just.. well, like an old film getting remade, it will never capture the original glory.
See, i get really tired of the nostalgia/rose colored glasses argument. While there is some merit to it in many situations. This is not one of them.
Earlier this year i decided to go play on a server which we're not allowed to discuss here, but it approximates early EQ very well. Now, obviously people played it like they do modern MMOs, so there are wikis telling you spawn rates and drop rates and this and that. But, i played it for several months, and it was just as awesome and fun of an experience as my first time around.
Yes, the sense of wonderment wasnt there. That part was gone. But the mechanics of the game (not all of them, mind you) still held up just fine. There was still a great sense of community, the world felt like a world, etc.
Another example since you point out movies ill give is 2.
Alien, Die Hard. Both of these movies hold up extremely well. If you go and watch either of them they're still just as awesome as they ever were. Whereas something like Independence Day aged very badly. So, the point here is it really depends on the product.
IMO EQ is not an example of rose colored glasses.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
The first risk vs reward and one of the only MMO's. A vast dangerous world where accomplishing anything a moment for real celebration. PvE danger was real. I've played games with exciting PvP open world danger, but EQ was the only MMO to offer open world PvE danger.
And you ask why was I out there in the PvE danger world. I was out there for specfic loot and experience. Not all loot and experience was the same. Also the complex unique loot tables cannot be overlooked. I see game after game having the same old boring universal loot tables. There is no reason to hunt a specific mob. Some mobs had higher exp with poor loot and other had amazing loot less than amazing exp. I would spend hours researching which mob to hunt. Would it be possible to solo, does the mob summon?
EQN can at least bring back rare spawns. I believe if they have a tagging system like GW2 and everyone can get the rare spawn loot that hits it, everything would be fine. Also the hope of dynamic spawns is exciting for EQN. I would like the difficulty and fear of death to follow. Give the hardcore PvE soloers something to do.
This has nothing to do with nostalgia. This is the way it was and I would like some of these qualities back. Some games have started to head towards a higher level of freedom, unlike the linear themeparks of the past 10 years, but they lack the hardcore solo PvE aspect. The PvE danger walking around the world is gone with most of the latest MMO's as they are afraid to upset someone.
I agree and disagree with this. I agree that for you personally, it isn't a matter of nostalgia, you simply like EQ in it's purest form (not sure if you like current EQ or not). If you specifically like the original mechanics as is, I think you are a minority even within the "old school vet" group that want "hardcore" games to return.
I loved EQ when it came out and for a few expansions, then not only did the game change, but other games came out offering different takes on the genre and I changed as well.
Just as I don't listen to the same music daily as I did 15+ years ago, or like the same food, or dress the same, etc I've moved on. Doesn't mean I don't still hold on to all that and don't dust off the oldies once in a while, but I'm in no rush to time travel.
I to have attempted to play this unknown game you speak of and I just couldn't hack it. The mechanics and game are the same that I enjoyed years ago, but I'm not.
So while I agree that you love original EQ, I think many that pray to the mmo gods for it to be reborn, are like me and either don't know or or can't accept it. If not, I think we'd see quite a few more people playing on those unknown servers or not continuing to pump money into games that go against everything that EQ was. Not to mention, we wouldn't have jumped ship so easily. If EQ was that amazing to us back then, we would of protested or something to keep it as is. All I saw was life rafts.
The genre hasn't changed because the devs/companies decided randomly, there has to be some player impact there somewhere.
BTW, sounds like they are making a sequel to ID, originality what's that?
And I doubt people like me or Hri are all that small.. I just had a friend last week call me asking if I had a copy of that un-named game for her to download and play.. I did not.. Add that into another buddy and his wife that live in Tenn that tried to go back to EQ (morphed version) as I did, it just wasn't the same.. We didn't change, the game did.. It was almost unrecognizable..
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Part of what made EQ great, was the lack of competition. UO was a great game, but it's wild west nature scared off a lot of players. EQ gave those players a home, and also looked pretty good graphically when it came out. Those same mechanics today wouldn't do nearly as well, Vanguard was very similar mechanically to EQ, and it struggled.
That having been said, as a player who loved the game, I think a lot of what made EQ great was the social aspects. It was challenging. You needed to work together. Even a soloer might need someone to help them get their corpse at some point. That caused players to work together and generally treat one another better because if you developed a bad reputation the only people who would group with you were others with bad reputations.
The combination of being the first truly group oriented, and raid capable MMO, combined with the social bonds from its mechanics made EQ a memorable game. The community was a big part of it, and the mechanics made it easier for that to happen. You don't get that same feeling in modern games, because the mechanics in many ways discourage grouping. The mechanics also generally separate players outside of being within a few levels of one another in modern games, where in EQ you had content which overlapped. High level dungeons near low level areas. Zones like East Karana which had content from like level 18-45. Even if the players weren't hunting together, they were crossing paths. The low levels loved seeing higher level players come clear Giants or Griffons from their hunting areas, they wished one day they could be that guy. Then when they were that guy they relished in how far they had come.
Games don't generally get designed in that way any more. If your in zone X then you are between level 20-22 and in zone Y you are between levels 25-28. To progress you do quests, and unless someone else is on those same stages there isn't much reason to group with them. Because players often move out of the level bubble of one another, and because they don't really need to interact with anyone outside of their bubble, you don't get that mix of low and high levels together outside of cities. And as a result you don't get the reverence or the community feeling you had in EQ. I know as a troll shadowknight, I knew most of the regular trolls. They'd often send me tells asking questions, things of that nature, because they had seen me in the same area. And because I often came across them I usually answered those questions.
Until developers get rid of things like anonymous group finders, start encouraging traditional grouping, and go back to a wider overlap of level ranges, you won't be able to duplicate that experience.
https://www.therepopulation.com - Sci Fi Sandbox.
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EQ Not! is not Everquest and is not intended to be Everquest.
What made anything "anything", and how could anything follow suit?
The answer: anything.
You are not alone
, there are many of us.
EQN may become a successful and popular game, but Everquest it is not and never will be.
Of course it's not exactly like it, why would SoE do that? They are designing this game for everyone to play, not just a select few. I think that's a big reason why a few are upset by the differences. EQN wasn't made just for them and I guess playing EQ in the past meant that it should have been.
There are those that did play EQ but also want something new in the genre. It will have similar places, faces and looks to have a very immersive world. That's a good thing IMO.
I thought this would be a good place to talk about that yet all I see is whining and complaining. Oh well.